No Easy Games in Aviva Premiership thread 2015/2016

The Lost Sheep

May as well have a separate thread rather than just commenting on the league in the general discussion/European threads etc.

Sarries and Bath will go unpunished after 9 month long investigation into salary cap breaches ended.

http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/23464/exclusive-premiership-salary-cap-breaches-will-go-unpunished/

Fixtures list is here
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/

Due to the world cup being hosted by England no premiership games will be played until the weekend of the quarter finals

thomond2006

Please rename this thread "No easy games in the Aviva Premiership 2015/16".

Teferi

The Greatest Hairline in Rugby Retires.

Best of luck to Andy Goode. Seems like a great guy and he was a cracking player. Never looked like a professional athlete at all!

The Lost Sheep

thomond2006 wrote: »

Please rename this thread "No easy games in the Aviva Premiership 2015/16".

Done.....

As league doesn't start for another month or so what exactly are premiership sides doing at the moment???

aimee1

Teferi wrote: »

The Greatest Hairline in Rugby Retires.

Best of luck to Andy Goode. Seems like a great guy and he was a cracking player. Never looked like a professional athlete at all!

when i first same him i thought he was a prop

aimee1

aimee1 wrote: »

when i first same him i thought he was a prop

When I first saw him I thought he was a pitch invader.

Ceadog

When I first saw him I thought Brendan Gleeson had started playing rugby.

Fair play to Saracens and Bath for letting themselves off the hook. Upstanding individuals in charge of the game.

But for action to be taken against both clubs it would need a 100 per cent agreement from the stakeholders.

sigh

wp_rathead

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair play to Saracens and Bath for letting themselves off the hook. Upstanding individuals in charge of the game.



sigh

This is a sorry read alright

irishbucsfan

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Fair play to Saracens and Bath for letting themselves off the hook. Upstanding individuals in charge of the game.



sigh

That part of the article is interesting but it doesn't make sense, does it mean 100% of the other stakeholders? Because surely if they can just block it then they wouldn't need to do any political maneuvering with anyone else?

I don't quite trust the details of the article, the rugby paper has always been dodgy. I'm hoping someone a little more established writes something to cover it and maybe gives us something more concrete.

irishbucsfan

In other news, Victor Matfield has signed for the Saints

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/victor-matfield-joins-northampton-saints-rugby-world-cup-winning-lock-joins-aviva-premiership-club-on-oneyear-deal-10492072.html

Reportedly at a salary of £4,238,563,128,138,650.56 per year.

Northhampton have broken the salary cap, but due to their excellent organisation have also absolved themselves of the sin and look forward to continuing to be in full and utter control of their own destiny, picking which rules and regulations they're interested in following and ignoring the others.

[/cynic]

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Reportedly at a salary of £4,238,563,128,138,650.56 per year.

Northhampton have broken the salary cap, but due to their excellent organisation have also absolved themselves of the sin and look forward to continuing to be in full and utter control of their own destiny, picking which rules and regulations they're interested in following and ignoring the others.

[/cynic]

Well in all seriousness it's probably unlikely his salary is counting towards the salary cap, he's probably who they're using their extra non-capped spot for (unless I missed another big name arriving).

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well in all seriousness it's probably unlikely his salary is counting towards the salary cap, he's probably who they're using their extra non-capped spot for (unless I missed another big name arriving).

Doesn't matter though does it? There is no [real] salary cap.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Doesn't matter though does it? There is no [real] salary cap.

Well, no, there is a salary cap that in theory the majority of sides adhere to. All we know is that some sides have breached it in an unknown manner to an unknown extent and it sounds like they'll be let off the hook by unknown other clubs for unknown reasons.

There's very little information available unfortunately, even people who I know who are very clued in at Bath and Wasps are in the dark. It could be that Bath and Sarries are just completely ignoring the cap entirely, it could be that they breached it to a small extent, IE incorrect disclosure was the original rumour, and that's why the other clubs are doing what they're doing. It could be that everyone is breaching it and the whole thing is a farce. With no information available it's impossible to put anything into context so it's impossible to form a reliable opinion. At least the fans are putting a lot of pressure on now to get a proper conclusion to the whole affair.

Hopefully a decent journalist like Kitson or Rees will be able to tear himself away from the World Cup coverage for long enough to shine some light on the whole affair.

Could you give us a scenario where in the presence of the information we do have, that it would be fair to say that there is a [real] salary cap in the AP?

However improbable first of all, just a scenario.

We can then talk about the probability of it being the case.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Could you give us a scenario where in the presence of the information we do have, that it would be fair to say that there is a [real] salary cap in the AP?

However improbable first of all, just a scenario.

We can then talk about the probability of it being the case.

Firstly, we don't have any information at the moment, you seem to be taking the rugby paper's article as fact when they've written some absolute nonsense in the past couple of years, it's just that most of it is disregarded entirely. Their article on this makes very little sense.

It's more pertinent to ask at what point there is NOT a salary cap in the AP, given the existence of an attempted cap is an absolute fact:

If the breaches are surrounding disclosure and technicalities and the smaller clubs are happy that they're still protected and are therefore using the issue politically, that wouldn't invalidate it for me.

If however there was a major cover-up taking place to allow multiple sides (it would be extremely unlikely for all the clubs to conspire to advance two sides) to exceed the cap then that would invalidate it.

I personally think the truth is somewhere between those two points. Hopefully someone trustworthy will give us some information to let us know exactly where.

irishbucsfan

What I'm saying is we need someone to save us. A saviour. Someone who plays by his own rules. Someone who flies in the face of the establishment. Someone who refuses to go by "the book".

Someone who has a 70s TV detective moustache, and possesses in that moustache more integrity than exists in an entire room of rugby alicadoos.

Background to the story is unpretty enough on its own....

Premiership wage cap: Saracens say seven clubs want cap to go - BBC - 19th December 2014

Exclusive: Clubs block salary-cap investigation - The Times (behind paywall - reddit copy/paste job here) - 29th April 2015

Premiership reject claims of salary cap amnesty - ESPN - 29th April 2015

Breaking salary cap is like doping - Planet Rugby - 30th April 2015

No point in Aviva Premiership salary cap if you don't enforce rules with the credibility of the English club game in grave jeopardy - Daily Mail :pac: - 30th April 2015

Premiership Rugby denies salary cap culprits could avoid sanctions - Telegraph - 30th April 2015

Saracens will keep their 2015 Premiership crown despite salary cap breach investigation
- The Express - 31st May 2015

Secrets of salary cap are tarnishing Premiership - RugbyWorld (Opinion Piece) - 3 June 2015

irishbucsfan

That's all just the same information from last summer when they decided to postpone the whole thing and the speculation surrounding that. There is still no information available as to what the offences were or anything else of any real importance. The main problem is that the process itself demands secrecy until a punishment is made, which does more harm than good imo.

The best outcome for club rugby is that they handle this poorly enough that the fans/media are able to make enough of a fuss that they end up changing their systems for the better. They changed their systems for policing and detecting the breaches in 2012/13, now they need to have a working system for dealing with any detected breaches. Either way overall I'm still completely in favour of the cap and I'm hoping it's mostly adhered to (even if we can't get 100% compliance the game still benefits from its existence). I would hope it's largely working as intended in both England and France.

aimee1

hartley no longer Saints captain.


http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/rugby-union/34250120

Winters

Salary Cap battle resumes as Bruce Craig steps down
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/23531/exclusive-salary-cap-battle-resumes-as-bruce-craig-steps-down/

Premiership plans to expand top flight could be ‘dead’ forever
http://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/featured-post/23386/premiership-plans-to-expand-top-flight-could-be-dead-forever/

hmmm

I revealed last Sunday that the affair was set to be swept under the carpet by the owners at their annual pre-season meeting. But I now understand that the investigation into three leading clubs breaching salary cap regulations is back on.

3/12 = 25%

But even a fine of £3 for every £1 over the cap could see one club, who are said to be £1 million over, owing a massive £3m.

£1m/£5.5m = 18%

The problem is that for action to be taken against offenders it needs ALL clubs to be in agreement and at the moment that isn’t happening.

12/12 = 100%

Maths good

irishbucsfan

I stopped by with an alicadoo acquaintance this morning to pick up some tickets and from what I understand the plans to expand are FAR from dead. But also they're not particularly confident in everyone's ability to agree an LTA by the end of the season, the RWC has everyone at under a lot of pressure and the clubs will be put on the backburner for good reason. Maybe they might suspend it and agree a shorter LTA this time due to that. Surely a bit silly to have it expire in a RWC year.

Also, I found out today that the plans to ring-fence the Premiership were only a temporary suggestion to facilitate the expansion, they didn't negotiate for a permanent end to relegation which is what I always thought was the case and how I'd always read it in the press (maybe I misread). The RFU are still completely opposed to even that though.


Anyways...

Whats more important to note here is that the rugby paper haven't the slightest clue what they're talking about!

I revealed last Sunday that the affair was set to be swept under the carpet by the owners at their annual pre-season meeting. But I now understand that the investigation into three leading clubs breaching salary cap regulations is back on.

IE, "The news I reported with absolute certainty turned out to be almost entirely false." Let's remember what they said...

Premier Rugby will this week officially brush their nine-month salary cap investigation under the carpet and refuse to take any action against Bath and Saracens.

Of course I don't particularly believe anything they've written to contradict themselves either. It's just a good example of why that paper should be treated with complete distrust. I got to the second paragraphy this week and closed the tab.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

hmmm



3/12 = 25%



£1m/£5.5m = 18%


12/12 = 100%

Maths good

Well obviously as above there's really no point in believe anything there until it's printed somewhere reputable by someone who understands the basic concepts of how decent journalists work, such as the moustachioed hero above, even their understanding/explanation of the rules in the boardroom should be taken with a few shakers of salt.

However, a financial penalty means very little. Screw it, I'll pay 3 for 1 to breach the cap. What's more important is competitive disadvantage and there's minimum sentencing that applies which works on a massive scale.

irishbucsfan

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well obviously as above there's really no point in believe anything there until it's printed somewhere reputable by someone who understands the basic concepts of how decent journalists work, such as the moustachioed hero above, even their understanding/explanation of the rules in the boardroom should be taken with a few shakers of salt.

Absolutely. But there's plenty of merit in considering the 'what if'. It may even be prudent to be prepared for it!

irishbucsfan wrote: »

However, a financial penalty means very little. Screw it, I'll pay 3 for 1 to breach the cap. What's more important is competitive disadvantage and there's minimum sentencing that applies which works on a massive scale.

Article discusses the points reductions available.

The punishment for clubs found guilty of breaking the cap range from the docking of four league points for a minor breach, and up to 40 points for serious breaches.

irishbucsfan

Deleted User wrote: »

Absolutely. But there's plenty of merit in considering the 'what if'. It may even be prudent to be prepared for it!

Article discusses the points reductions available.

Yeah the 40 point reduction kicks in way below £1m. But let's just wait and see how this plays out and we'll see what the clubs decide to do.

The Lost Sheep

London Irish and Harlequins play each other at The Stoop tonight and next Friday. The second game, despite being held at The Stoop, will be considered a London Irish home match.
The winner on aggregate will win the inaugural Cunningham Duncombe Series
Plenty of guys who played Irish Exiles age grade and Irish Clubs/19s age grade in LI squad...

Newcastle host Leicester(who will also play Loughborough Uni and Sale Sharks before league starts) tonight.

irishbucsfan

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

London Irish and Harlequins play each other at The Stoop tonight and next Friday. The second game, despite being held at The Stoop, will be considered a London Irish home match.
The winner on aggregate will win the inaugural Cunningham Duncombe Series

Newcastle host Leicester(who will also play Loughborough Uni and Sale Sharks before league starts) tonight.

Not to mention Wasps are playing newly promoted Worcester this weekend, which may well be DOC's debut.

The Rugby Paper develops the story (exclusively!). Some swing in fortunes in the last 4 weeks if it's to be believed.

From this thread's OP

EXCLUSIVE: Premiership salary cap breaches will go unpunished (Sept 8th)

Then 1 week later
EXCLUSIVE: Salary Cap battle resumes as Bruce Craig steps down (Sept 15th)

Followed by
Name salary cap-busters who are wrecking game, say players (Sept 22nd)

And now!
EXCLUSIVE: Salary cap cheats will be hammered to protect league’s integrity (Oct 6th)

irishbucsfan

I'm hoping now that their interest in he World Cup is lessened we might see some reporting on this from elsewhere. Especially with the Premiership season starting up the weekend after next. Thank god they waited until mid-October to start the season what with England's hectic World Cup campaign...

Daily Mail (the bastion of fairness in this world :pac:) also discussing it with reference to Tuilagi a fortnight ago

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-3237045/Manu-Tuilagi-subject-400-000-bid-Saracens-riled-Leicester-Tigers-asked-questions-salary-cap-ruling.html

irishbucsfan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34508938

Bristol's quest for the Premiership continues with the hiring for Steve Borthwick (of recent Japan glory) as forwards coach.

irishbucsfan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/34508938

Bristol's quest for the Premiership continues with the hiring for Steve Borthwick (of recent Japan glory) as forwards coach.

Redgirl82

Some players to watch this weekend

Brendan Macken starts for Wasps and Jimmy Gopperth starting at 10
JJ Hanrahan on bench for Northampton

irishbucsfan

And Donncha O'Callaghan and Niall Annett for Worcester.

Paddy McAllister for Gloucester. Quite a few more I'm sure.

irishbucsfan

And Donncha O'Callaghan and Niall Annett for Worcester.

Paddy McAllister for Gloucester. Quite a few more I'm sure.

Teferi

Bucsfan you're a double-posting fiend at the moment!

Redgirl82

Teferi wrote: »

Bucsfan you're a double-posting fiend at the moment!

Boards at the moment seems to like to double post a lot...not sure why but it does it every so often for me as well....I just go back and delete

total former

Peter Stringer on the bench for Sale, with Chris Cusiter starting.

Great to see the Sharks embracing youth...

And we move to more mainstream sources for Salary Cap issues

Independent - http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/aviva-premiership-preview-expect-an-embarrassment-of-riches-and-continued-claims-of-salary-cap-a6696131.html

And we move to more mainstream sources for Salary Cap issues

Independent - http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/club-rugby/aviva-premiership-preview-expect-an-embarrassment-of-riches-and-continued-claims-of-salary-cap-a6696131.html

irishbucsfan

I expect we might actually get some new information from the press now that England's interest in world cup has been lessened.

Digifriendly

Donncha O'Callaghan's debut for Worcester is FTA on Freeview Ch 59 (BT Showcase) tonight from 7.00pm.

https://twitter.com/owenslot/status/657246563547389954

breaking news from the Premiership re salary cap investigation, which has been completed, and "appropriate confidential settlements" made

Sorted so. Nothing to see here.

sydneybound

Breaking news...

Salary cap next year will be £6.5million

.... While the season after it will be £7million

This excludes two marquee signings. So their squad budgets could be closer to £8million.

English clubs will have serious money at their disposal now if they are willing to spend it.

irishbucsfan

I was hoping we'd see more on the offenses/punishments in the breakdown this week (the guardian's weekly) but no luck. We're still waiting to hear what the offenses were, let alone what the punishments were. We could be waiting a while...

The increase in the salary cap was always on the cards after the BT deal was signed. This will actually be the first time that the Premiership's cap exceeds the Top 14's as far as I'm aware. The DNACG cap is 10 million euro although I'd imagine we'll also see that increase. 10 million euro is still nominally more but the marquee players are worth a lot.

irishbucsfan

But Premiership Rugby said in a statement on Thursday: "Over the last few months, there has been speculation, much of it significantly inaccurate, concerning investigations into clubs. "During that time, Premiership Rugby has not commented in view of the confidentiality obligations in the Regulations. "Premiership Rugby can confirm that certain issues were pursued last season with some clubs relating to access to information, and to commercial contracts where there were differences of opinion as to the correct inclusion or not in the salary cap spend. "The issues were not straightforward and were subject to differing legal opinion and consequent risk as to any judgment on the correct interpretation. "Premiership Rugby and the clubs have now resolved the issues identified and have entered into appropriate confidential settlements."

https://twitter.com/brianmoore666/status/657326360977911808

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/rugbyunion/article4593891.ece

Wasn't Wasps - http://sport.bt.com/rugby-union-hub/rugby-union/wasps-owner-derek-richardson-denies-salary-cap-settlement-with-premiership-rugby-S11364012572697

http://www.gloucestercitizen.co.uk/Gloucester-benefit-funding-Premiership-Rugby/story-28040512-detail/story.html

"It's important to stress that not only have there been no breaches but we regret that over the past six to nine months supporters have not had clarity during this time when it comes to certain issues being looked at on the salary cap," McCafferty said.

Sure thing Mark!

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/oct/22/premiership-rugby-mike-mccafferty-rfu

We have reached a settlement which is a commercial agreement between two parties which does what it says, settles differences.

irishbucsfan

https://twitter.com/goatteeboy/status/657656545828872192

It's what I'd suggested earlier on, a matter of payment in kind or other alternative payments and then arguments about whether they count or not towards the cap. Just comes down to poor legislation if that's the case, by all accounts the French make that sort of thing almost impossible to get around so hopefully they look towards how they handle similar things.

The only way they could make investigations open would be if they also made all salaries and cap figures public. They do that in the NFL so it'd be an option but I believe the players' union is hugely opposed to that.

irishbucsfan

https://twitter.com/AlexCorbs/status/657659927717134336

Let's hope the pressure will tell soon and we'll get a proper statement from PRL. If they don't disclose properly there are individual clubs who will.