The Great VFM/Rip-off Beer Debate Thread

Turpentine

Mod edit - From [EMAIL="http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96911862&postcount=23"]Post #23[/EMAIL]

"For some reason a lot of threads on this forum always descend into a debate on whether a beer is a rip off or not. For rightly or wrongly it happens a lot. So to stop the other threads being dragged off topic I'll just dump any off topic discussions about pricing into this thread from now on."

RasTa wrote: »

New sour by Galway bay in Brewdock. maybe Next Monday. Delicious! 3.2% and €6.75 a pint, mention of citrus on the tap, barman didn't know too much about it

Christ.

Well it's one case where excise duty and/or shipping costs can't be blamed for quite the premium price. Storage cost maybe, if it's been aged for a while.

I'm sure it's delicious though, good brewery. I'd be wanting a sample first though.

Mesrine65

RasTa wrote: »

New sour by Galway bay in Brewdock. maybe Next Monday. Delicious! 3.2% and €6.75 a pint, mention of citrus on the tap, barman didn't know too much about it

:eek:

BaZmO*

I think we've reached peak take the p1ss status.

RasTa

Yeah I had my 50c off voucher. They are also doing 2/3 pours now and offering most beers in pint format.

snowblind

Sour beers cost more to make. Only thing that is shocking is the reaction by the whiners. Lower ABV doesn't automatically mean that the drink should be cheaper. And it definitely doesn't mean someone is gouging or taking the piss.

You don't have to drink that beer! Drink something that is in your budget!

I'll be in Stockholm in a couple of weeks...beers from the shop are about the same price as here, but look at this local brewerys prices. Yes, a lot of the beers cost 5€ per 0.2l serving... (10kr ~ 1 eur)


Transfer those prices to pint prices and complain about irish extortionate prices again....

Mesrine65

snowblind wrote: »

Sour beers cost more to make. Only thing that is shocking is the reaction by the whiners. Lower ABV doesn't automatically mean that the drink should be cheaper. And it definitely doesn't mean someone is gouging or taking the piss.

You don't have to drink that beer! Drink something that is in your budget!

I'll be in Stockholm in a couple of weeks...beers from the shop are about the same price as here, but look at this local brewerys prices. Yes, a lot of the beers cost 5€ per 0.2l serving... (10kr ~ 1 eur)


Transfer those prices to pint prices and complain about irish extortionate prices again....

Like it or not, people are entitled to their opinions & if it doesn't happen to coincide with yours, what of it?

I think it's taking the piss & an extortionate price, I therefore will not be purchasing this product as is my perogative.

Feel free to enjoy it at your leisure, I look forward to your review of this 'nectar of the Gods'

the beer revolu

I sometimes think that snowblind won't be happy until Ireland has the most expensive beer in the world.

I mean what relevance is the price of beer in Stockholm when the price of beer in Ireland is being discussed?

snowblind

the beer revolu wrote: »

I sometimes think that snowblind won't be happy until Ireland has the most expensive beer in the world.

I mean what relevance is the price of beer in Stockholm when the price of beer in Ireland is being discussed?

I sometimes think that some here won't be happy until Ireland has the most whining in the world.

Irish craft beer is cheaper than in most countries with similar cost of living / cost of supermarket beer. Damn, a glass of sour could cost that price even in the states. How is that not relevant? Do you think all beer should be the same price....determined by what? The price of Guinness?

Specialty beer offerings suffer from whiney attitude towards pricing. We have 8 degrees excellent hoppy beers for 4/11€ in off licences, we have decent pints of craft beer for ~5er in many places, but when the price of a pint of ONE SPECIALTY BEER goes 30% over that, there's crying and hollering.

You don't have to drink that. Somehow the fact that there is an offering for people who want to consume this drink that is costly and time consuming to make, is an affront to you? How does that work? Why don't you just consume the drink that is in your budget?

I'm low on cash at the moment myself. I will not go and buy that pint for 6.75. I will drink a White Hag Little Fawn or two....maybe a can of Bavaria instead. But I might when it's my pay day. And if it's world class, then I will consider myself lucky for being able to get a pint of good sour for that price - I might not get that even in the states!

I don't go to a wine bar and start whining on line when a glass of Barolo is 15€. If it doesn't fit my budget, I'll have a Pinot Noir for a 5€, or a free glass of water.

This seems to be a side effect of the Diageo problem. They still determine what a drink can cost here, and if you want to do a more ambitious brew, good luck with that.

snowblind

Mesrine65 wrote: »

Like it or not, people are entitled to their opinions & if it doesn't happen to coincide with yours, what of it?

I think it's taking the piss & an extortionate price, I therefore will not be purchasing this product as is my perogative.

Feel free to enjoy it at your leisure, I look forward to your review of this 'nectar of the Gods'

What is taking the piss? Brewing a beer that costs more to make, or being outrageous and trying to sell it?

How about if someone brews a beer using wild yeast and a year in chardonnay barrels - what do you think the fair price for that would be? 5€ a pint?

"extortionate" and "taking the piss" are not just opinions, you are laying down a claim that the price is inflated, without taking into consideration where that price comes from. Guinness, Heineken etc have insanely inflated price of selling vs price of manufacturing. Instead you focus on taking a **** on local microbrewers who try to bring something new and interesting to the market. Do you really think the brewers of this will be rolling in cash from their efforts?

the beer revolu

Snowblind, I have not complained about the price of any beer here so, please, don't direct your rant at me.

I was simply questioning your reasoning.
Ultimately, the market will decide the price of anything and we are talking about the Irish market here. If the market here won't support a beer at a certain it makes eff all difference what price similar beers are in Copenhagen or Singapore.

To be fair, you are like a broken record.

snowblind

the beer revolu wrote: »

Snowblind, I have not complained about the price of any beer here so, please, don't direct your rant at me.

I was simply questioning your reasoning.
Ultimately, the market will decide the price of anything and we are talking about the Irish market here. If the market here won't support a beer at a certain it makes eff all difference what price similar beers are in Copenhagen or Singapore.

To be fair, you are like a broken record.

Yeah, well, what use is your name calling?

I know that's how the market works, but I wasn't arguing with the market. I was taking part in discussion on whether the prices are "extortionate" on a discussion forum boards.ie where such topics are being discussed.

The prices would be extortionate if you were forced to buy this stuff, perhaps it could be stretched to mean that if there was a monopoly and no choice.

oblivious

When I see "rustic" in relation to beer, it conjours "we can't be bothered putting in bight tanks/ lager the beer" to me

MonkstownHoop

Seen a 2.5% raspberry beer in ATG yesterday, only €9 a pint.

finatron

snowblind wrote: »

Sour beers cost more to make. Only thing that is shocking is the reaction by the whiners. Lowe.

It is not that much more expensive to brew. Simple grain bill very little hops free yeast if it is a ture sour otherwise same cost as any other beer.
The cost is simply storage it takes a year to mature .
I'm not 100% but id say you wouldn't pay that for some of the better lambics

oblivious

finatron wrote: »

It is not that much more expensive to brew. Simple grain bill very little hops free yeast if it is a ture sour otherwise same cost as any other beer.
The cost is simply storage it takes a year to mature .
I'm not 100% but id say you wouldn't pay that for some of the better lambics

Also its still seasonal to capture they right micro flora and there is a lot of blending of different vintages

snowblind

finatron wrote: »

It is not that much more expensive to brew. Simple grain bill very little hops free yeast if it is a ture sour otherwise same cost as any other beer.
The cost is simply storage it takes a year to mature .
I'm not 100% but id say you wouldn't pay that for some of the better lambics

Yeah, basically "production and distribution" costs are high but it all shows in the price.

I think blaming the brewery for greed and taking the piss should be based on something else than "this costs more than other beers of the same ABV"

I don't even remember when I got to drink a pint of lambic the last time, but bottles of 1/3l are from 4.50 upwards in offos...glasses of lambics around different parts of europe I've had would usually cost ~5-10 euro.

testaccount123

the beer revolu wrote: »

Ultimately, the market will decide the price of anything and we are talking about the Irish market here.

The market already has decided the prices. Doesnt stop people moaning about it constantly on this forum.

To those who think whatever price point is "taking the piss" - nobody owes you beer at any price, if you dont like it or cant afford it then dont buy it, but for the love of god shut up whinging about it in every other thread.

If you dont have €6.75 to spend on an item of food or drink then craft beer is not for you.

BeerNut

While I'm fully behind this:

testaccount123 wrote: »

if you dont like it or cant afford it then dont buy it, but for the love of god shut up whinging about it in every other thread.

I don't agree with this at all:

testaccount123 wrote: »

If you dont have €6.75 to spend on an item of food or drink then craft beer is not for you.

I tried Maybe Next Monday in The Beer Market yesterday (€3.95 for a 33cl glass) and I don't think it's a €6.75-a-pint beer. But if you don't have the €6.75 to spend on it, then there's plenty of other craft beer options out there, and cheaper than macro in a lot of cases: Trouble Hardwired IPA was €4.50 a pint in the Bull & Castle and my JW Sweetman loyalty card got me a pint of their porter for €4.50 also. Craft beer on a budget is easily doable in central Dublin.

As you say, the market decides the prices, and we are the market. By choosing the beers we deem to be good value and ignoring the ones that aren't, we can influence prices. Whether something is craft or not doesn't come into it, IMO.

testaccount123

BeerNut wrote: »

As you say, the market decides the prices, and we are the market. By choosing the beers we deem to be good value and ignoring the ones that aren't, we can influence prices. Whether something is craft or not doesn't come into it, IMO.

OK. People need to realise that just like in Stockholm and Copenhagen, people are happy to spend €6.75 to sip a complex sour for an hour in a place like Against The Grain because they consider it value. The current prices arent going anywhere.

As you well know, the lads you see in the likes of GBB pubs drop in a couple of times a week and spend 10 or 20 quid on a couple of nice sippers. Just like Stockholm and Copenhagen a lot of these lads are IT contractors and the like earning contractor rates - €6.75 is not a lot of money to them.

Its because this sector exists that its viable to have bars like Beermarket pouring Thornbridge beers et al. Thats who these bars and beers (and beer and food festivals) are aimed at, not the frugal living crowd who are still stuck in the mindset of drinking in large quantities. And there are enough people in that market to sustain it, which is why the prices are what they are.

symbolic

BeerNut wrote: »

While I'm fully behind this:

Trouble Hardwired IPA was €4.50 a pint in the Bull & Castle and my JW Sweetman loyalty card got me a pint of their porter for €4.50 also. Craft beer on a budget is easily doable in central Dublin.

100per cent agree with this. Sweetmans is great value with the loyalty card. And trouble have always been very reasonable imo.

Like in against the grain now you'd be mad (imo) to buy the Sierra Nevada at 6.95 a pint, but I don't think you should go home, just grab one of the Trouble brewing rotations etc.

BeerNut

testaccount123 wrote: »

And there are enough people in that market to sustain it, which is why the prices are what they are.

Apropos of nothing, I'd normally agree with this, but the recent changes to the offer in The Beer Market would suggest that it may not actually be the case. Turns out that a Mikkeller-style permanent-rotation specials-only bar may not be viable after all. Which is sad.

matrim

BeerNut wrote: »

Apropos of nothing, I'd normally agree with this, but the recent changes to the offer in The Beer Market would suggest that it may not actually be the case. Turns out that a Mikkeller-style permanent-rotation specials-only bar may not be viable after all. Which is sad.

Part of that may be the location of the beer market. If it was somewhere near a shopping district it would probably get more visitors.

BaZmO*

For some reason a lot of threads on this forum always descend into a debate on whether a beer is a rip off or not. For rightly or wrongly it happens a lot. So to stop the other threads being dragged off topic I'll just dump any off topic discussions about pricing into this thread from now on.

BeerNut

From what they say, the number of visitors isn't the issue, but rather what the visitors want. I guess on the tourist trail between Christchurch and the Storehouse it's a good idea to have pints of stout available. When Galway Bay opens on Grand Canal Dock next year, that location might work better for the small 'n' pricey crowd. I wonder will they try the model again.

matrim

BeerNut wrote: »

When Galway Bay opens on Grand Canal Dock next year

Haven't heard about this. Any more details on location / timeframe?

Geuze

I have a comment/question to make about pricing in JDW versus GBB pubs.


JDW, last year, had one or two pubs in RoI, and next week they will have 5.

GBB have 3 in Galway (seems to be 2 now?) and 7 in Dublin.

So GBB seem to have as much volume purchasing power as JDW, when it comes to buying from the likes of O'Hara's.

In JDW they sell O'Hara's as follows:

stout 50cl = 3.75
Leann Follain 33cl = 3.25


If the GBB chain has as much purchasing power, can they buy the O'H beer at the same cost as JDW?

Yet their prices are higher?

oblivious

matrim wrote: »

Part of that may be the location of the beer market. If it was somewhere near a shopping district it would probably get more visitors.

mmmh maybe but even P mac's has a Guinness tap

Yarghhh

BeerNut wrote: »

When Galway Bay opens on Grand Canal Dock next year, that location might work better for the small 'n' pricey crowd. I wonder will they try the model again.

Hadn't heard the location of the new pub.....is it confirmed?

@matrim this is all I heard before now: https://twitter.com/GALWAYBAYBREW/status/636975690215202816

Creamy Goodness

Yarghhh wrote: »

Hadn't heard the location of the new pub.....is it confirmed?

@matrim this is all I heard before now: https://twitter.com/GALWAYBAYBREW/status/636975690215202816

They had mentioned Dublin 4 in a tweet somewhere for definite. Never had it pinpointed more accurately than that, that I've seen anyways.

matrim

oblivious wrote: »

mmmh maybe but even P mac's has a Guinness tap

But they would be looking at a different crowd. I would assume that PMacs are looking to get people in for pints for the night and have a fairly mixed crowd. This would be regular drinkers and craft beer drinkers.

The Beer Market idea would typically involve people dropping in for one or two beers to sip so a higher footfall would help with turnover

kenon

Grand Canal Docks is set to be their tenth venue according to this article on the Journal yesterday.

BeerNut

Geuze wrote: »

So GBB seem to have as much volume purchasing power as JDW, when it comes to buying from the likes of O'Hara's.

But they don't, they're much much smaller and effectively running a different sort of business. When it comes to a bottle of O'Hara's, it makes more sense to compare JDW with Tesco.

Geuze

A quote from Mr. Walsh, one of the proprietors of GBB:

"We were just holding in there [Blackrock pub] for the first six months to a year when they were serving similar beers to us at a fraction of the price … I have no idea how they do it because margins are tight as it is.”

But Walsh said the Galway Bay Brewery venue had now come back “close to where it was” and that its customers were happy to pay for quality.

"I don’t want to be critical of (JD Wetherspoon), they are what they are, but their offering is pretty basic. I know every end of production and you can’t produce a good pint of beer for €3."


Cask ale is 2.50 in JDW, it's 5.00 in GBB Galway, and note that GBB may get an excise rebate.

33cl bottles in JDW are 3.25, example Lagunitas, Goose Island, Knockmealdown stout, etc.

Now, I understand that a single pub can't match the bulk purchasing power of JDW, but surely GBB can?


GBB sell Lagunitas 355ml at 7.15.

Geuze

BeerNut wrote: »

But they don't, they're much much smaller and effectively running a different sort of business. When it comes to a bottle of O'Hara's, it makes more sense to compare JDW with Tesco.

Yes, it's a different business model.

Small? 12m turnover in 2014, according to the article, growing fast.

testaccount123

Retailers sell things at the highest price people are willing to pay for them.

L1011

Geuze wrote: »

Yes, it's a different business model.

Small? 12m turnover in 2014, according to the article, growing fast.

JD Wetherspoon, 1.75Bn euros in 2012/3 financial year.

Yes, GBB are small.

irish_goat

Geuze wrote: »

A quote from Mr. Walsh, one of the proprietors of GBB:
"I know every end of production and you can’t produce a good pint of beer for €3."

Not sure I agree with that. Certainly the case that there's plenty of good pints of cask sold in Wetherspoons UK for less €3(although whether they make any profit on them is another question).

BeerNut

Geuze wrote: »

Small? 12m turnover in 2014, according to the article, growing fast.

Over a hundred times smaller than JDW in turnover terms, then. Literally orders of magnitude smaller.

Geuze

I mean JDW Ireland vs GBB.

In terms of the size of orders from O'Hara's and 8 Degrees, that is what matters.

I accept that for ordering from the USA, JDW can use their 1000-pub scale to order containers full of bottles.


GBB seem bigger than JDW Ireland, yet can't or don't use that scale to get better deals from O'Hara's, etc.

Now, of course, maybe they don't want 3.25/3.50 bottles (33cl) competing against their own beers.

ThisRegard

matrim wrote: »

But they would be looking at a different crowd. I would assume that PMacs are looking to get people in for pints for the night and have a fairly mixed crowd. This would be regular drinkers and craft beer drinkers.

I never even realised P Macs had a Guinness tap, although why would I look for one when it's full of other delights.

But it does cater very well for a mixed crowd, I love going there for their selection, my wife loves going there for the Prosecco on tap, and friends who are fans of neither can still get their regular bottles of Coors or whatever.

It's got a great atmosphere too, always a good crowd there.

L1011

Geuze wrote: »

I mean JDW Ireland vs GBB.

In terms of the size of orders from O'Hara's and 8 Degrees, that is what matters.

I accept that for ordering from the USA, JDW can use their 1000-pub scale to order containers full of bottles.


GBB seem bigger than JDW Ireland, yet can't or don't use that scale to get better deals from O'Hara's, etc.

Now, of course, maybe they don't want 3.25/3.50 bottles (33cl) competing against their own beers.

JDW have their parent companies might for all overheads, etc - you're still not comparing like with like.

I'd also not be surprised if their turnover for 2016 in Ireland ends up being vastly more than 12m anyway.

BaZmO*

Geuze wrote: »

I mean JDW Ireland vs GBB.

In terms of the size of orders from O'Hara's and 8 Degrees, that is what matters.

I accept that for ordering from the USA, JDW can use their 1000-pub scale to order containers full of bottles.


GBB seem bigger than JDW Ireland, yet can't or don't use that scale to get better deals from O'Hara's, etc.

Now, of course, maybe they don't want 3.25/3.50 bottles (33cl) competing against their own beers.

But the final cost is not just about what you can buy the product at. There are a lot of factors like overheads, and how streamlined your business is. I'd imagine that JDW are pretty streamlined and efficient when it comes to all levels of their business thereby reducing their total overhead costs which they could then pass on to the consumer.

Turpentine

Turpentine wrote: »

Mod edit - From Post #23

"For some reason a lot of threads on this forum always descend into a debate on whether a beer is a rip off or not. For rightly or wrongly it happens a lot. So to stop the other threads being dragged off topic I'll just dump any off topic discussions about pricing into this thread from now on."





Christ.

Well it's one case where excise duty and/or shipping costs can't be blamed for quite the premium price. Storage cost maybe, if it's been aged for a while.

I'm sure it's delicious though, good brewery. I'd be wanting a sample first though.

Woah woah woah

It appears I've started a thread by mistake.

Just to be clear, I don't agree with the phrase "Rip-off Beer" as per the thread title. Not words I would use had I started this thread myself.

Also, any pub is entitled to charge what they think they can get for their wares. No one is forced to buy it.

BMJD

Heathen, another sour by GBB, was on sale around January this year for something like €4 a pint (possibly €3.50, can't remember tbh). It was 3% abv, I haven't tried the new one so I might be comparing apples to expensive oranges ☺

snowblind

Some beers are cheaper than others!

oblivious

BMJD wrote: »

Heathen, another sour by GBB, was on sale around January this year for something like €4 a pint (possibly €3.50, can't remember tbh). It was 3% abv, I haven't tried the new one so I might be comparing apples to expensive oranges ☺

I though it was around 4.50-5 in the beer maket

Yarghhh

BMJD wrote: »

Heathen, another sour by GBB, was on sale around January this year for something like €4 a pint (possibly €3.50, can't remember tbh). It was 3% abv, I haven't tried the new one so I might be comparing apples to expensive oranges ☺

I would guess the added hops up the price for the Citra Sour over Heathen but I tried it yesterday and it is not overly hoppy anyway....I much prefer Heathen on price and taste.

BeerNut

oblivious wrote: »

I though it was around 4.50-5 in the beer maket

Nope, €4. The Beer Market has always charged the same price for GBB beers as other Dublin branches.

Yarghhh wrote: »

I would guess the added hops up the price for the Citra Sour over Heathen

I doubt there's ever much point in trying to deconstruct the retail price of any beer. They all cost what the supplier thinks people will pay.

Yarghhh wrote: »

I much prefer Heathen on price and taste.

+1 here. But we won't see its like again

Mesrine65

snowblind wrote: »

What is taking the piss? Brewing a beer that costs more to make, or being outrageous and trying to sell it?

How about if someone brews a beer using wild yeast and a year in chardonnay barrels - what do you think the fair price for that would be? 5€ a pint?

"extortionate" and "taking the piss" are not just opinions, you are laying down a claim that the price is inflated, without taking into consideration where that price comes from. Guinness, Heineken etc have insanely inflated price of selling vs price of manufacturing. Instead you focus on taking a **** on local microbrewers who try to bring something new and interesting to the market. Do you really think the brewers of this will be rolling in cash from their efforts?

Damn straight they are opinions, my opinions, which I am entitled to, so get of your fúcking high horse, you aren't going to convert me with your preaching & ranting just because they differ to yours.

I've been brewing beer for over 30 years & like you I have a little insight & I know the brewers won't be rolling in my cash because I refuse to pay their prices, which is why I brew.

I buy quality beers that I consider to be good value, €6.75 for a session beer whether it has been fermented in the pussies of vestal virgins, wild yeasts used or whatever is not, in my opinion, good value, like it or not.

BMJD

snowblind wrote: »

Some beers are cheaper than others!

Time to lock the thread so

BaZmO*

Mesrine65 wrote: »

Damn straight they are opinions, my opinions, which I am entitled to, so get of your fúcking high horse, you aren't going to convert me with your preaching & ranting just because they differ to yours.

I've been brewing beer for over 30 years & like you I have a little insight & I know the brewers won't be rolling in my cash because I refuse to pay their prices, which is why I brew.

I buy quality beers that I consider to be good value, €6.75 for a session beer whether it has been fermented in the pussies of vestal virgins, wild yeasts used or whatever is not, in my opinion, good value, like it or not.

Please be civil or don't bother posting in the thread.

mmmkay?