Should Ireland apologize for its role in the creation of the British Empire?

coffee with colm

I visited the soldiers and chiefs exhibition at Collin's Barracks more than once in the past and what struck me about the exhibition was that it said that Ireland provided more troops to the British Empire per head of population more than England, Scotland or Wales.

The statistics vary over time by on more than one occasion or period in time this is the case.

I thought that was a very interesting fact considering that relations between Britain and Ireland have been so bad in the past.

Obviously this isn't to say we had a role in running it but we did contribute a lot of troops which brought a lot of terror and misery to native populations of the world.

So this begs the question; should we apologize for our imperial past?

tritium

Apologise for being conquered, oppressed and used as cannon fodder?

That's a new on OP

pauldla

I'd imagine a good few of the young men who took the kings shilling were trying to escape from the terror and misery of life in our own fair isle.

Car99

Magnificent suggestion shall we apologise for being dependant on potatoes too and causing a famine.

StonyIron

Since "we" had no control whatsoever over the British army I'm not sure how that would work.

kneemos

Apologising for historical events is pointless,should never have started and needs to stop.

Peregrinus

I think the fact that lots of Irish people were involved in an injustice doesn't, in itself, warrant an apology from those not involved, just because they too are Irish.

They would need to have been acting in some representative capacity, on behalf of the (Irish) nation before there would be the kind of shared or collective responsibility, in the context of which an apology might make sense.

REXER

coffee with colm wrote: »

I visited the soldiers and chiefs exhibition at Collin's Barracks more than once in the past and what struck me about the exhibition was that it said that Ireland provided more troops to the British Empire per head of population more than England, Scotland or Wales.

The statistics vary over time by on more than one occasion or period in time this is the case.

I thought that was a very interesting fact considering that relations between Britain and Ireland have been so bad in the past.

Obviously this isn't to say we had a role in running it but we did contribute a lot of troops which brought a lot of terror and misery to native populations of the world.



So this begs the question; should we apologize for our imperial past?

Are you nuts? The British Empire dragged millions of people out of the stone age, created workable infrastructures in countries all around the world and provided the first real medicine to people that up to that point had been totally dependent on witch craft and the local witch doctor and education that helped bring light and food to these people!

If anything the Ireland should be ashamed of their roll in how the de-colonisation and destruction of the British Empire and other European empires was done as that is one of main the causes of the current chaos that has resulted in the flood of refugees and migrants in the Med!

CEOL40

The British empire is/was a vicious, destructive entity and we should be proud of our role in crippling it. Could you imagine the horror if that idiot Cameron and the in-bred Windsors had anything like the power they used to have?

REXER

CEOL40 wrote: »

The British empire is/was a vicious, destructive entity and we should be proud of our role in crippling it. Could you imagine the horror if that idiot Cameron and the in-bred Windsors had anything like the power they used to have?

LOL......:rolleyes:

Deedsie

coffee with colm wrote: »

I visited the soldiers and chiefs exhibition at Collin's Barracks more than once in the past and what struck me about the exhibition was that it said that Ireland provided more troops to the British Empire per head of population more than England, Scotland or Wales.

The statistics vary over time by on more than one occasion or period in time this is the case.

I thought that was a very interesting fact considering that relations between Britain and Ireland have been so bad in the past.

Obviously this isn't to say we had a role in running it but we did contribute a lot of troops which brought a lot of terror and misery to native populations of the world.

So this begs the question; should we apologize for our imperial past?

Ireland should apologise in the same way African Americans should apologise for their role in the triangular trade. Ireland was a colony with a legal structure that only the elite had any kind of rights. Most Irish people who fought for the British army and navy did so out of necessity rather than desire.

Peregrinus

And it's probably worth pointing out that the Indian Army (raised by the British and under British command) was much, much larger than the British Army. Far more Indians, therefore, were involved in implementing British colonial policy than were Britons. Should India therefore be apologising to India for the colonisation of India?

In the end, the issue is not where the soldiers were recruited. What matters is who recruited them, and used them to implement an offensive policy.

BMJD

No they should apologise to us. And give us free Sky Sports.

kneemos

How about everybody apologises to everyone.

Just in case loike.

FTA69

coffee with colm wrote: »

So this begs the question; should we apologize for our imperial past?

There were plenty Congolese in the Belgian Army and Algerians in the Frnch Army, were they all collaborative empire builders as well?

We were a colonised nation that had a million and a half people starve to death while the British government looked on. You can fup off if you think we've anything to apologise for.

Dozen Wicked Words

kneemos wrote: »

How about everybody apologises to everyone.

Just in case loike.

Sorry

irishmover

I think the OP should apologise for using American English when talking about Ireland and the British Empire.

StonyIron

It was another era. We left the UK, the British Empire and even the Commonwealth largely on the basis that we didn't agree with it.

I am all for building a strong relationship with the modern UK as neighbours on a mutually respecting basis.

However, this would be like asking the Swiss to apologise for the Roman Empire!

Ken.

Per head of population their are more Irish descendants in America than any other nationality. Should we apologise for the Vietnam war and the 2 gulf wars also?.

PARlance

We say "sorry" about 20 times a day. We've apologised enough.

irishmover

ken wrote: »

Per head of population their are more Irish descendants in America than any other nationality. Should we apologise for the Vietnam war and the 2 gulf wars also?.

Aboriginal Genocide aswell.

Peregrinus

REXER wrote: »

Are you nuts? The British Empire dragged millions of people out of the stone age, created workable infrastructures in countries all around the world and provided the first real medicine to people that up to that point had been totally dependent on witch craft and the local witch doctor and education that helped bring light and food to these people!

None of this is actually true, though, is it? The only stone age country the British ever colonised was Australia, and they didn't exactly bring "real medicine" to the indigenous people. In fact, most people accept that British colonisation of Australia was an unmitigated disaster for the indigenous people, from which they have still yet to recover.

Other countries colonised by the British - e.g. Ireland, India - were in no sense in the stone age, they weren't dependent for medical care on witch doctors, and they already had educational institutions (which, now and then, the British weren't above destroying).

StonyIron

Colonisation is generally bad. It's basically invasion and takeover of a country and it's often dressed up retrospectively as "bringing civilisation".

In many cases the British Empire colonised countries with far older civilisations than Britian had itself.

Invariably it's about conquest and grabbing resources.

The European colonial powers also saw it as a bit of a race to take over the most places.

Let's not engage in revisionism about the British Empire or any other empire for that matter.

Fratton Fred

Deedsie wrote: »

only the elite had any kind of rights. Most Irish people who fought for the British army and navy did so out of necessity rather than desire.

So no different to any other country then.

LordSutch

coffee with colm wrote: »

I visited the soldiers and chiefs exhibition at Collin's Barracks more than once in the past and what struck me about the exhibition was that it said that Ireland provided more troops to the British Empire per head of population more than England, Scotland or Wales.

The statistics vary over time by on more than one occasion or period in time this is the case.

I thought that was a very interesting fact considering that relations between Britain and Ireland have been so bad in the past.

Obviously this isn't to say we had a role in running it but we did contribute a lot of troops which brought a lot of terror and misery to native populations of the world.

So this begs the question; should we apologize for our imperial past?

Good post, good question . . .

Alas this is the wrong forum if you want a reasoned debate about our part in the creation of Empire. Indeed right up until recently (maybe twenty years ago) it would have been unheard of for somebody to suggest that Irish people actuall had any part in creating the British Empire :eek:

Nowadays we hear a lot of bleating about our 'colonial masters: and the awful hardship bestowed upon is by the British Empire, > whilst all the time while we were actually plugged into & part of it.

The truth is much more complicated and revealing about ourselves and our schizophrenic relationship with our heritage, our history, and our relationships with the people on our neighbouring island, who we love, hate, embrace, and reject in equal measure? The real history is too uncomfortable for many to stomach in this nice "ex colonial" Empire bashing country. Our very DNA is stamped all over the now long dead Empire.

This same national "amnesia" could have been applied to those Irish men who fought (250.000) and died in the Great War, only to be airbrushed out of our history until about fifteen or twenty years ago? when they too were slowly recognised (as having existed) and sacrificed themselves as Irish men fighting for the Allies in the British/Irish army.

NUTLEY BOY

No.

Nodin

REXER wrote: »

Are you nuts? The British Empire dragged millions of people out of the stone age, created workable infrastructures in countries all around the world and provided the first real medicine to people that up to that point had been totally dependent on witch craft and the local witch doctor and education that helped bring light and food to these people!

If anything the Ireland should be ashamed of their roll in how the de-colonisation and destruction of the British Empire and other European empires was done as that is one of main the causes of the current chaos that has resulted in the flood of refugees and migrants in the Med!

I hope to jaysus that's sarcasm.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

Good post, (..............)/Irish army.

The only relationship was that of abused and abuser. The Brits used us the same way they used the Scots, Sikhs and whoever else - using the desperation of a subjugated people to aid in subjugating others.

LordSutch

^ ^ ^ There was no conscription here, yet Irish men in their droves went off to fight, without coersion . . .

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

^ ^ ^ There was no conscription here, yet Irish men in their droves went off to fight, without coersion . . .

What period are you referring to, precisely?

LordSutch

1914-1918 The Great War.

swimming in a sea

Nodin wrote: »

The only relationship was that of abused and abuser. The Brits used us the same way they used the Scots, Sikhs and whoever else - using the desperation of a subjugated people to aid in subjugating others.

Scots are Brits, unless Brits are now only the English and those crafty Welsh(the real imperial power I'd say )

CEOL40

Of course they always had/bought the worst of the locals, knowing that keeping the colonised under the thumb is easier done using insiders. But yes, abuser and abused is right. Delegating some of the abuse to some the abused is time-honoured, effective abuse in itself.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

1914-1918 The Great War.

Poverty, idealism, and the words of one the great arseholes of Irish history, John Redmond.

Nodin

swimming in a sea wrote: »

Scots are Brits, unless Brits are now only the English and those crafty Welsh(the real imperial power I'd say )

Now, they are.

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

Poverty, idealism, and the words of one the great arseholes of Irish history, John Redmond.

Not sure historians would call John Redmond "an arsehole" but if that's the way you feel, then carry on . . .

irishfeen

I have literally heard it all now....

LordSutch

This thread is totally wasted here, it should have been posted in the History forum.

Bye.

listermint

Should the OP Apologise for opening this thread ?

Yes

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

Not sure historians would call John Redmond "an arsehole" but if that's the way you feel, then carry on . . .

failure would be too kind.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

This thread is totally wasted here, it should have been posted in the History forum.

Bye.

...the history forum on www.JohnBruton.com?

Reiver

"The British Empire was wanted by the English, fought for by the Scots and Irish. Ran by the Welsh"

The army, traditional escape from poverty, no surprise so many Irish joined it, just as the highlanders in Scotland did. But a part to empire building? Absolute bollocks, I very much doubt despite our representation in the British armed forces that we had many work their way up to the higher echelons of command.

kneemos

irishmover wrote: »

I think the OP should apologise for using American English when talking about Ireland and the British Empire.

My phone gives me a red line when I spell things properly.
I think fuk you yank.

doolox

On the device there should be an option to change the dictionary to UK from US.

c_man

coffee with colm wrote: »

So this begs the question; should we apologize for our imperial past?

I just can't get the image of Gay Mitchell writing that post out of my head.

Frynge

If we are going to start apologising for historical events maybe we should start with some more recent things.

I suggest we apologise for unleashing crystal swing on the world first.

foggy_lad

coffee with colm wrote: »

I visited the soldiers and chiefs exhibition at Collin's Barracks more than once in the past and what struck me about the exhibition was that it said that Ireland provided more troops to the British Empire per head of population more than England, Scotland or Wales.

The statistics vary over time by on more than one occasion or period in time this is the case.

I thought that was a very interesting fact considering that relations between Britain and Ireland have been so bad in the past.

Obviously this isn't to say we had a role in running it but we did contribute a lot of troops which brought a lot of terror and misery to native populations of the world.

So this begs the question; should we apologize for our imperial past?

The British Army was the biggest training camp the IRA and other terrorists ever had!

they also pay and train people quite well for people who have little chance of making the same money here.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

Now, they are.

Why, when weren't they then? Or are the Scots now being painted as more poor lowly Gaels beaten by the Saxon oppressor?

Nodin

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why, when weren't they then? Or are the Scots now being painted as more poor lowly Gaels beaten by the Saxon oppressor?

If the scots were willingly British Fred, what were they rebelling about? A tax on their battered mars bars?

mg1982

No we shouldnt. They were different times and different circumstances. No doubt irishmen in the british army carried out atrocities. Such as the Connacht rangers who had an reputation for brutality.

P_1

Yes because flogging yourself for the actions of your 2nd great grandfather is such a logical thing to do :rolleyes: