I want to go faster next year; does anybody mind if I draft?

Kurt_Godel

I'm thinking of drafting during the bike next year. From what I can see this will take between 3-5 mins off my 40k time, and there's the added bonus of fresher legs during the run.

I've played by the rules for a few years now and its not doing me much good. I keep getting passed by packs of fellow competitors, who don't seem to mind breaking the rules for the benefit. My job is analysing risk/reward, and from what I can see the reward is well worth the risk. Seems to be very little a motorbike marshall can do to deter cheating, seems like the same people keep doing it, seems like its better to finish higher up the rankings in a race if you're not caught- so if my peers are doing it, is it really cheating?

The only downside might be that some people might think less of me, but most of them would finish behind me, and the race is the race is the race, right?

BTH

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

I'm thinking of drafting during the bike next year. From what I can see this will take between 3-5 mins off my 40k time, and there's the added bonus of fresher legs during the run.

I've played by the rules for a few years now and its not doing me much good. I keep getting passed by packs of fellow competitors, who don't seem to mind breaking the rules for the benefit. My job is analysing risk/reward, and from what I can see the reward is well worth the risk. Seems to be very little a motorbike marshall can do to deter cheating, seems like the same people keep doing it, seems like its better to finish higher up the rankings in a race if you're not caught- so if my peers are doing it, is it really cheating?

The only downside might be that some people might think less of me, but most of them would finish behind me, and the race is the race is the race, right?

I think that was Lances defence too.

RacoonQueen

Kurt must have raced today...

Podge83

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

I'm thinking of drafting during the bike next year. From what I can see this will take between 3-5 mins off my 40k time, and there's the added bonus of fresher legs during the run.

I've played by the rules for a few years now and its not doing me much good. I keep getting passed by packs of fellow competitors, who don't seem to mind breaking the rules for the benefit. My job is analysing risk/reward, and from what I can see the reward is well worth the risk. Seems to be very little a motorbike marshall can do to deter cheating, seems like the same people keep doing it, seems like its better to finish higher up the rankings in a race if you're not caught- so if my peers are doing it, is it really cheating?

The only downside might be that some people might think less of me, but most of them would finish behind me, and the race is the race is the race, right?

Now Now Kurt - Behave. Calm Down!! I didn't see you but you must have been at Lough Key Today!??

Kurt_Godel

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Kurt must have raced today...

I love racing. Love it to bits, its the most immediate feeling of being alive in a moment. I love training to get faster, working with new gear, discussing things with the coach; and then putting it all on the line for a race. A good race or a bad race. For the moment you give up in the swim and let someone go: versus the moment your brain says "no" and you stick with them. For the target thats ahead on the run, and the lad whose footsteps you hear getting closer- will you hunt or be hunted? But for the bloody bike... the decision is "do I stay close with this pack and gain what they are gaining, or do I drop off and watch them disappear?"

I don't mind being beaten in a race by someone better and faster; thats what its all about and why we train to get better. But being beaten by groups who don't care about drafting rules? I'm the fool for not joining them.

Kurt_Godel

Podge83 wrote: »

Now Now Kurt - Behave. Calm Down!! I didn't see you but you must have been at Lough Key Today!??

Yeah, I saw you there but I arrived late and left early so didn't get a chance to say hello. You passed me (under your own steam) but were soon caught by a large gang. What do you think? Worth playing by the rules, or worth drafting?

(Great event from Lough Key Tri by the way!)

Podge83

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Yeah, I saw you there but I arrived late and left early so didn't get a chance to say hello. You passed me (under your own steam) but were soon caught by a large gang. What do you think? Worth playing by the rules, or worth drafting?

(Great event from Lough Key Tri by the way!)

Today's cycle was a big disappointment for me too. Now, don't get me wrong this was a great race with a great atmosphere, but the organisers were dealt a bad hand when at short notice their bike course was stolen by the County Council (or some utility) digging up the road. It happens. The replacement course just wasn't great.

Couldn't answer your question on todays race, as it was a bad example of drafting if you were doing it to cheat - it was slowing you down today. If the road was clear I'd say that my time would have been faster, as would many more!

Boreens for some of it and a narrow road at best with two way traffic - it just doesn't work for a sprint when 400 or so hit the cycle course over a short space of time. Unfortunately racing was difficult? In fairness most of the people in groups, although technical drafting were trapped and couldn't get away. I challenge most but the out in front leaders to say they didn't break a drafting rule today, but what do you do - get off the bike and wait for everyone to go?? Actually, at times it was a bit dangerous today. Lets hope the proper course is back next year.

Its been said before, but the only answer in these situations is smaller waves spread out. OK, you don't know where you are but it would be a more honest race.

In Carlow in May there were several waves and from what I could see there was very little drafting. It was out and back, but on a wide closed road - the cycle was a pleasure.

Surely as the cycle is supposed to be a time trial, that's what should be aimed at and with a sprint distance more spread out waves are an answer.

trihead

Raced today too - such a great race venue and well organised race - volunteers / goodie bag / food etc but the bike course was dangerous for the first three kms - it was a windy narrow county rd with sharp bends and the road was divided in two with cones on these bends - I don't usually like to moan etc but it was crazy and dangerous in some spots - the race briefing we were told that this 3km section was neutralised ( 3km out and 3km back) so no overtaking - the result was that some obeyed this and others overtook people - I was bit surprised the the TI technical officer signed off on the race to be honest. I know it was caused by last minute changes during the week but they should have delayed the second wave to avoid the two way traffic. Hopefully just a blimp and next year back to normal course.

I agree with the other posts re drafting - it was a common sight today and unconnected to the bike change I think - I saw a pack of at least 15 riders who were drafting together on the main road coming back and were up there chasing the leaders - I'd say they all finished in the top 30 judging on their bike position at that stage - collecting points etc and prizes too - its so annoying to be honest!! Nice mix of men and women in various club gear in the pack - these were experienced triathletes which makes it even more disappointing.

Mr Tango

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

Yeah, I saw you there but I arrived late and left early so didn't get a chance to say hello. You passed me (under your own steam) but were soon caught by a large gang. What do you think? Worth playing by the rules, or worth drafting?

(Great event from Lough Key Tri by the way!)

Surely not a great event if they don't enforce the rules?? I know I have not gone back to races for this reason. And I note their is athlete responsibility here but both organisers and athletes have their part to play.

(Wasn't at that race today but speaking in general). Did lost sheep yesterday and didn't see any drafting. Was a one loop bike tho so can only speak about this who passed me. I was 2nd out of water so a good few passed me!!

Kurt_Godel

Podge83 wrote: »

I challenge most but the out in front leaders to say they didn't break a drafting rule today, but what do you do - get off the bike and wait for everyone to go??

Hate to be a pr*ck about it, but I didn't break a drafting rule today. If someone passed me and pulled in front (slowing), I moved wide of them, out of their draft, and passed them. If a group passed me and pulled in, I dropped back out of the draft (and was quickly dropped by them).

Useless, and my result suffered for it. I would have been much better off going with the groups. Hence the thread.

BTH

Mr Tango wrote: »

Surely not a great event if they don't enforce the rules?? I know I have not gone back to races for this reason. And I note their is athlete responsibility here but both organisers and athletes have their part to play.

(Wasn't at that race today but speaking in general). Did lost sheep yesterday and didn't see any drafting. Was a one loop bike tho so can only speak about this who passed me. I was 2nd out of water so a good few passed me!!

I was wondering if that was you I went past going up the Healy in Phronix tri gear.

tunney

Podge83 wrote: »

I challenge most but the out in front leaders to say they didn't break a drafting rule today, but what do you do - get off the bike and wait for everyone to go??

To me this reads like a complete and utter admission of guilt. Reading between the lines - you drafted today didn't you?

tunney

BTH wrote: »

I was wondering if that was you I went past going up the Healy in Phronix tri gear.

You could have asked him when he went past you on the run (too soon?)

BTH

tunney wrote: »

You could have asked him when he went past you on the run (too soon?)

I can't remember if that was before or after I pulled out. I don't recall doing any running anyway, lots of walking with some short bursts of shuffling.

I'm like Liverpool FC, next year will be my year

Mr Tango

BTH wrote: »

I was wondering if that was you I went past going up the Healy in Phronix tri gear.

It was. Some people were really motoring!!

rodneyr1981

BTH wrote:

I can't remember if that was before or after I pulled out. I don't recall doing any running anyway, lots of walking with some short bursts of shuffling.

BTH wrote:

I'm like Liverpool FC, next year will be my year

You'll have to join us up in mayo to close out season on a proper note. I'll drive. No excuse :-)

Kurt_Godel

Podge83 wrote: »

I challenge most but the out in front leaders to say they didn't break a drafting rule today, but what do you do - get off the bike and wait for everyone to go??

tunney wrote: »

To me this reads like a complete and utter admission of guilt. Reading between the lines - you drafted today didn't you?

I'm sorry Podge but as you are someone who usually is very anti-drafting I hate to say I agree with Tunney here. It was not very difficult to draft today but drafting was not mandatory. If someone with your anti-draft background is challenging people to abide by the rules or not... what's the point?

BTH

rodneyr1981 wrote: »

You'll have to join us up in mayo to close out season on a proper note. I'll drive. No excuse :-)

I'll be in Spain, headed for the airport to come home.

Mr Tango wrote: »

It was. Some people were really motoring!!

Was a few that flew past me alright. Took me ages to reel you in.

mossym

BTH wrote: »

I'm like Liverpool FC, next year will be my year

in fairness you're not. unlike Liverpool, you'll be competing in europe next year.

Podge83

tunney wrote: »

To me this reads like a complete and utter admission of guilt. Reading between the lines - you drafted today didn't you?

As a solicitor would advise--- no comment.

As they say in question time.. I refer you to my next answer

Podge83

Kurt_Godel wrote: »

I'm sorry Podge but as you are someone who usually is very anti-drafting I hate to say I agree with Tunney here. It was not very difficult to draft today but drafting was not mandatory. If someone with your anti-draft background is challenging people to abide by the rules or not... what's the point?

My point on todays race is --- (notice no admission) If a cyclist, (having waited for an initially reasonable but then growing period of time) is slowed by a group of three or more spread across the road, cant get past, waits until he can at 12m [as to drop back loses the (or potential) opportunity] is drafting as to hold the 12m front wheel to front wheel is getting more challenging as at this stage to keep pulling the brakes is upsetting those behind [and unquestionably drafting (cheating) en-masse] causing those (same people behind) to give out [even though the act is slowing him or her and then the surrounding group grows (save for the people who broke the white line to pass)] is guilty then maybe he/she is but surely there are extenuating circumstances....................................... your honour.

Look I Fooking hate drafting and don't like being accused of it (EVEN LIGHT HEARTEDLY), but the course was the worst I've seen (again, it was forced on the organisers) and if the drafting penalties were enforced the penalty box would have been like Hill16 on an all Ireland final day with everyone with duplicate tickets getting in aswell!!


Another day of pity on the draft marshalls - harder to referee than a bad tempered Dublin Mayo All Ireland Semi final - by the way what's the TI equivalent to the DRA??

RJM85

http://www.wheelworx.ie/blog/good-bad-ugly-kilkee-2014/

This thread made me think of this report^

Don't draft, just train harder.

cjt156

Nice yellow 'Draft to Win' wristbands for sale. Proceeds to, eh charity...yeah, that's it.

Kurt_Godel

Mr Tango wrote: »

Surely not a great event if they don't enforce the rules?? I know I have not gone back to races for this reason. And I note their is athlete responsibility here but both organisers and athletes have their part to play.

Having slept on this- Lough Key Tri had the narrow out and back imposed on them. It was very difficult to abide by the rules to the letter of the law and remain somewhat competitive during the bike. Obviously there are different degrees of what constitutes a drafting benefit (riding the 20k in a pack at the higher end, versus not dropping back every time someone pulls in front of you at the lower end), and what I take from yesterday is that it wasn't a course for a black or white interpretation of the draft rules. Next time I'll do what everyone is doing.

(I'm getting a reputation for always moaning so I just want to stress it was a great race overall, very enjoyable!)

Oryx

This race lent itself to drafting and wasnt policed. Ok. KG didn't succumb... podge may have but under duress... oookkk...

Given as a back of pack cyclist I never have this problem, my view can be taken lightly, but say you had cheated KG, how would you feel about the race now? If you had prize money in your pocket would it feel worth it? Would you feel a win was a reflection of your ability? What you and Podge describe is an 'if you cant beat em join em' attitude that means youve both pretty much given up the fight to keep racing legal. Youre both just a few 100 yards behind those who already blatantly cheat. You have to decide whats more important, how your finish times look, or knowing you raced honestly. I have zero faith that TI will ever sort the problem and imagine that the solution is heading towards draft legal racing anyway, where your problem will be solved and people will have to find new ways to wheedle an illegal advantage.

secman

The sport of Triathlon has been in turmoil over drafting for more than 25 years when I was racing myself. They impose a drafting rule in races with anything from 500 to 2000 competitors, which can be impossible to do. Then you switch on the telly and watch 150 elite pro's cycle in groups only short of doing up and overs. The pro's don't even use tri bars these days. .. a complete and utter joke.

BTH

secman wrote: »

The sport of Triathlon has been in turmoil over drafting for more than 25 years when I was racing myself. They impose a drafting rule in races with anything from 500 to 2000 competitors, which can be impossible to do. Then you switch on the telly and watch 150 elite pro's cycle in groups only short of doing up and overs. The pro's don't even use tri bars these days. .. a complete and utter joke.

eh, is this a wind up or what?? You do know ITU elite races are draft legal, right?? That's why there's not a TT bike in sight.

Kurt_Godel

Oryx wrote: »

This race lent itself to drafting and wasnt policed. Ok. KG didn't succumb... podge may have but under duress... oookkk...

Given as a back of pack cyclist I never have this problem, my view can be taken lightly, but say you had cheated KG, how would you feel about the race now? If you had prize money in your pocket would it feel worth it? Would you feel a win was a reflection of your ability? What you and Podge describe is an 'if you cant beat em join em' attitude that means youve both pretty much given up the fight to keep racing legal. Youre both just a few 100 yards behind those who already blatantly cheat. You have to decide whats more important, how your finish times look, or knowing you raced honestly. I have zero faith that TI will ever sort the problem and imagine that the solution is heading towards draft legal racing anyway, where your problem will be solved and people will have to find new ways to wheedle an illegal advantage.

Talking to someone afterwards who exited high from the swim, and was having a great bike judging by his position as I passed going out while he was coming back... he was swallowed up by the packs working behind him. That's where the unfairness lies.

So even if I justified not dropping back when a pack passed me as "well I was working this hard before they came so why should I disturb my effort now?", I'd still be part of the pack gaining on the lad ahead working on his own. For that reason I'll continue not to draft.

Podge83

Oryx wrote: »

This race lent itself to drafting and wasnt policed. Ok. KG didn't succumb... podge may have but under duress... oookkk...

Given as a back of pack cyclist I never have this problem, my view can be taken lightly, but say you had cheated KG, how would you feel about the race now? If you had prize money in your pocket would it feel worth it? Would you feel a win was a reflection of your ability? What you and Podge describe is an 'if you cant beat em join em' attitude that means youve both pretty much given up the fight to keep racing legal. Youre both just a few 100 yards behind those who already blatantly cheat. You have to decide whats more important, how your finish times look, or knowing you raced honestly. I have zero faith that TI will ever sort the problem and imagine that the solution is heading towards draft legal racing anyway, where your problem will be solved and people will have to find new ways to wheedle an illegal advantage.

I've tabled my defence in post no. 21 above.................... Your Honour

bryangiggsy

Same old story same old problem. When you have 1 large wave you havedrafting. When you have age group wavesthe drafting becomes more difficult as there are less people coming out of thewater at the same time as you. Strongerswimmers suffer most…baaa haah. Wavesare the only thing that can work imho.

tunney

secman wrote: »

The sport of Triathlon has been in turmoil over drafting for more than 25 years when I was racing myself. They impose a drafting rule in races with anything from 500 to 2000 competitors, which can be impossible to do. Then you switch on the telly and watch 150 elite pro's cycle in groups only short of doing up and overs. The pro's don't even use tri bars these days. .. a complete and utter joke.

The races can be policed. But the focus needs to be on quality and fairness rather than revenue.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Just focus on your own race and enjoyment whilst riding legal, too much wasted energy thinking about what others do and how their results compare.

Grassey

I was overtaken by a group yesterday. I dropped back. TI motorbike pulls up on back wheel of the group ahead, revs the engine loudly for about 30seconds until they notice him. The lads at the back drop back out of draft zone. I need to drop my speed as a result. Bike drives on. Lads sprint back into a group and 400m up the road pass out the bike who'd pulled into the side.

It's like speeding, drink driving, running red lights whatever if those meant to be penalizing the conduct don't they you can hardly expect the people racing to follow the rules if there is no fear of getting caught.

pgibbo

Melissa White Self-possession wrote: »

Just focus on your own race and enjoyment whilst riding legal, too much wasted energy thinking about what others do and how their results compare.

Easier said than done Fran. Yesterday you could pass a group and ride legal for a few minutes. Then they'd charge past again and after you drop back you start gaining on them. Wrinse and repeat makes it difficult to race without burning a load of matches. That coupled with narrow roads and some groups the width of the road can make it quite frustrating and stop-start.

pgibbo

The other alternative is this :pac:

Oryx

pgibbo wrote: »

The other alternative is this :pac:

Been readingabout her. Its hard to tell if she has any honest results. Her times are all over the place. Theres cheating, and then theres Cheating, Julie style.

sconhome

pgibbo wrote: »

The other alternative is this :pac:

Oryx wrote: »

Been readingabout her. Its hard to tell if she has any honest results. Her times are all over the place. Theres cheating, and then theres Cheating, Julie style.

Did you read the ST thread(s) about her? Some investigative work down by posters over there

Oryx

AKW wrote: »

Did you read the ST thread(s) about her? Some investigative work down by posters over there

I have it bookmarked.

RacoonQueen

Link? I'm never on slowtwitch...

Oryx

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/IM_Canada_F40-44%3A__new_thread_P5674186-24

Jakey Rolling

First time triathlete this year, and over the course of 6 sprints and an Olympic drafting is the one thing that is spoiling the experience for me.

In general when these groups passed me out I first thought so what, they're just cheating themselves to gain a few places, they're not putting anyone out much.

Then at CK in Mullingar I was passed 10k in by a couple from the same club who I watched leap-frog each other all the way up the road. I took the time to look them up on the results to find they had both placed top 2 in their age groups, times on finishing the bike leg almost identical. Really makes my blood boil that they are taking their fellow competitors for suckers.

Dory Dory

It's pretty pathetic when you want to win so badly (or gain a few finishing places) that you knowingly and deliberately cheat to do so. And why? What does that person really gain? And what does that tell us about that person and the way they view/measure themselves? It tells me they have some serious image issues and place way too much value in something that is extracurricular fluff. Not pretty...and kinda sad.

68 lost souls

I think it's time to name and shame. Any one that you see drafting especially groups from the same club together should be named here.

If the same clubs keep coming up they may eventually be embarrassed into stopping or ti might eventually have to have a word

viperlogic

What can be done to combat this seeing as it appears the bike officials are rarely handing out penalties? Should all official bikes have GoPro's mounted so that if a complaint is raised by a competitor the video could be reviewed etc? Time consuming yes, but something to deter the repeat offenders.

joey100

I thought the bike Marshalls all did have go pro's? I know they definitely did at one race I have done, they announced it at the start. I don't know if it's the races I done this year or what but I didn't see a whole lot of drafting this year at all, definitely not as much as I did last year.

ray o

joey100 wrote: »

I thought the bike Marshalls all did have go pro's? I know they definitely did at one race I have done, they announced it at the start. I don't know if it's the races I done this year or what but I didn't see a whole lot of drafting this year at all, definitely not as much as I did last year.

"Now remember folks, we have Go Pro's and we are prepared to use them!. So no acting the bollix out there"

tunney

Cameras were tried before, didn't work as they were deemed to be static analysis and as such podge and his mates would need to be pinged three separate times to be done. Alot of work when no one really cares "Shut up and give us your money, and sure aren't the juniors great"

joey100

Went something like that alright! It was more along the lines of if you get a penalty and want to appeal it just be aware that there are go pro's on the bikes so it's not your word against the marshalls, there will be evidence!

tunney

joey100 wrote: »

Went something like that alright! It was more along the lines of if you get a penalty and want to appeal it just be aware that there are go pro's on the bikes so it's not your word against the marshalls, there will be evidence!

Drafting penalties are "judgement calls" and as such cannot be appealed.

BennyMul

Is there any type of proximity sensor that would record infringements, and once the bike is racked in T2 the data uploaded and penalties issued.

once of course you get over the initial road blocks,
who pays for this, associating to the athlete
and of course if they want to cheat then they will cheat.

Kurt_Godel

If a race has an out-and-back route there's usually more drafting than a looped course IMO. Don't know whether this is from people following by example (you see the front end trains looking much fresher than the solo guys) or bunching and congestion.

Either way I had determined to ignore drafters, let them do their thing and I'll do mine. However, you have to constantly sit up or drop off when a train pulls in front of you (and you can do this quite often when everyone in the train pulls in front of you individually, thinking you're part of the group). Do this again and again and your bike suffers, through no fault of your own. Ignore them and keep going at your usual effort, and now you find yourself part of an illegal draft bunch. That's the biggest problem, I find.