Three questions on burglars

Notavirus.exe

Q1: I was reading something about burglars breaking into houses and somehow getting injured inside the house, e.g. falling down the stairs and actually winning cases against the owners of the house. This has happened a few times in America, is the law the same in Ireland regarding a matter like this? I mean, if someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night and trips on my (for example) model train set and they break their ankle, can they sue me?

Q2: Does Irish law allow me to use any means necessary to fight off a burglar that has entered my home?

Q3: Am I allowed to purchase a shotgun/rifle gun licence specifically for home protection/am I allowed to use a gun against a burglar?

I'm not trolling, I'm just paranoid because of the "rise" in house break-ins.

MarkAnthony

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Q1: I was reading something about burglars breaking into houses and somehow getting injured inside the house, e.g. falling down the stairs and actually winning cases against the owners of the house. This has happened a few times in America, is the law the same in Ireland regarding a matter like this? I mean, if someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night and trips on my (for example) model train set and they break their ankle, can they sue me?

Open to correction but never heard of it in Ireland. There was a rather amusing case of the guy running over the burglar. He rightly faced a civil case which he last but I suspect it was worth it.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Q2: Does Irish law allow me to use any means necessary to fight off a burglar that has entered my home?

The law is codified in the Defence and the Dwelling Act 2011. It's somewhat vague as to the standard to be applied but it's the force you deemed reasonable in the circumstances. The jury has to put themselves in your shoes and consider whether the force was reasonable. It's complicated in theory but frankly practically speaking a jury is going to side with the person broken into in all but the most heinous of cases.

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Q3: Am I allowed to purchase a shotgun/rifle gun licence specifically for home protection/am I allowed to use a gun against a burglar?

I'm not trolling, I'm just paranoid because of the "rise" in house break-ins.

No and you'd be a moron for doing so. It's much more likely to be used on you. There are all sorts of regulations on how stuff is to be stored, just having it to hand is unlikely but I'll stand corrected by the more gun knowledgeable on shot guns.

A hurley or in my case a cricket bat on the other hand though...

Notavirus.exe

MarkAnthony wrote: »

No and you'd be a moron for doing so. It's much more likely to be used on you. There are all sorts of regulations on how stuff is to be stored, just having it to hand is unlikely but I'll stand corrected by the more gun knowledgeable on shot guns.

A hurley or in my case a cricket bat on the other hand though...

When I say use a gun in defence, I mean shoot the guy in the leg to keep him away. Would that be legal?

What if the guy has a gun? Can I shoot to kill?

I'm just curious on Ireland's laws. For some reason, I'm more knowledgeable on American laws then Irish laws...

Paulw

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Q3: Am I allowed to purchase a shotgun/rifle gun licence specifically for home protection/am I allowed to use a gun against a burglar?

You will never get a licence if you put that down as a reason. You are not permitted a firearm for home protection under Irish law. Also, how you store your firearm should make it very difficult to use it in a pressure situation.

In saying that, you may use reasonable force to defend yourself and your property. There have been cases where burgulars have been shot with legally held firearms.

seamus

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Q3: Am I allowed to purchase a shotgun/rifle gun licence specifically for home protection

No. And if you put that reason on the licence application you'll be instantly refused. Thankfully the requirements of gun owners in Ireland mean that legally owning and storing a firearm in Ireland makes them functionally useless for home protection.

As said, even in the US where everyone talks about owning a gun for home protection, having a gun actually provides no protection. Those who own guns are not less likely to be broken into. They're not less likely to "survive" break-in unscathed. In fact, you are twice as likely to be shot dead in your own home. The males in your house are 10 times more likely to commit suicide using it. And for those homes where someone attempts suicide, the attempt is 30 times more likely to succeed than in a home with no guns.

In other words, if you care about your family - especially if you have teenagers - you wouldn't have a gun in the house for "protection".

am I allowed to use a gun against a burglar?

The only circumstance in which you may fire a gun on someone is if there is a significant, real and present threat to you or someone else. An intruder simply being in your home doesn't legally mean that they are a threat to you.

The law has changed recently though and you are permitted to use "reasonable" force to "repel" the intruder, afaik.

I'm not trolling, I'm just paranoid because of the "rise" in house break-ins.

Someone who breaks into your house, wants to avoid confrontation at all costs. Ensure you have an alarm fitted, decent windows and doors that can't be pushed in, if you do hear someone break in, then a quick roar down the stairs should be enough to send them running.

MarkAnthony

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

When I say use a gun in defence, I mean shoot the guy in the leg to keep him away. Would that be legal?

What if the guy has a gun? Can I shoot to kill?

I'm just curious on Ireland's laws. For some reason, I'm more knowledgeable on American laws then Irish laws...

Most people think they are but they vary by state to state, and are usually informed by TV shows, but I digress.

The standard is - 'the force used is only such as is reasonable in the circumstances as he or she believes them to be'

Me as a strapping six+ footer might convince a jury I believed the use of deadly force was justified when 6 burly bloke broke in. An unarmed 13 year old, I suspect would be very difficult, however breaking his legs, probably back in the realms of acceptable to a jury.

As for the gun, if I was in a jury I'd be asking myself - was he waiting for this. Was this premeditated, does that negate the force being reasonable? Other may not, the Judge may direct one way or the other. Perhaps it's an illegally held gun, perhaps it was still reasonable. That would not negate other charges one may face however.

Ken.

Dead burglars tell no lies.

Notavirus.exe

seamus wrote: »

Someone who breaks into your house, wants to avoid confrontation at all costs. Ensure you have an alarm fitted, decent windows and doors that can't be pushed in, if you do hear someone break in, then a quick roar down the stairs should be enough to send them running.

There have been occasions in rural Ireland when a group of 3 or more people armed with knives knocked on someone's door and when the person answered the door, they barged in threatening the person with their weapons and continued to rob the house.

I'm not familiar with gun storage laws but I can guarantee that there is no one else in my house and I can also guarantee I'm not suicidal.

MarkAnthony

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

There have been occasions in rural Ireland when a group of 3 or more people armed with knives knocked on someone's door and when the person answered the door, they barged in threatening the person with their weapons and continued to rob the house.

I'm not familiar with gun storage laws but I can guarantee that there is no one else in my house and I can also guarantee I'm not suicidal.

Without proper training and a lot of luck you'll be no better off with a gun in that situation; most likely in a much worse situation. Certainly a shot gun is bugger all use to you it only fires two shots. Hand guns I do know need to be broken down and stored in a safe so no help there.

Admittedly if I lived in rural Ireland I'd never answer the door without someone ringing me first and have a vat of boiling oil above the door.

MarkAnthony

ken wrote: »

Dead burglars tell no lies.

Tis however better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

Actually that doesn't really make sense here but I like the phrase and I've typed it now! Back to the regions wines!!

Zambia

The presence of a firearm in the house will actually make your house a target for the most serious of burglars. It will actually decrease your personal safety.

The better options are light and locks.

Good lighting around the house especially attached to sensors makes the house less appealing to burglars they like the dark and nothing highlighting their presence. If the house lights up as you approach the door it deters them.

Know your neighbours they are the first line of defence if they look out for you and you for them it works.

Get a dog, my dog will alert me if anyone loiters around my house. She loud and scary looking to most people but even a 1 foot poodles bark will deter most burglars.

Know who is outside the door before you open it. Install a door camera, good door chain or a peep hole.

Get an alarm system that activates to your phone.

Install a good camera system that relays images to your phone.

Check the locks on your house doors and windows are they secure ? Are you 100% positive they work.

Can you lock yourself in your bedroom (like a panic room)?

Are your electronic items tagged , use a soldering iron to burn your name and phone number into the back of expensive goods

Are anti theft devices turned on (findMyiPhone) do you have a record of serial numbers?

Is your house insurance up to date, does it cover you goods?

All these options while tedious and boring are better than a firearm. Unless your a drug dealer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTyQ4Q8z-D8

mattP

MarkAnthony wrote:

A hurley or in my case a cricket bat on the other hand though...

Exactly what I thought

RainyDay

MarkAnthony wrote: »

A hurley or in my case a cricket bat on the other hand though...

Have you tried swinging a hurl in a hall or stairway? Not the most practical of instruments for indoor use.

MarkAnthony

RainyDay wrote: »

Have you tried swinging a hurl in a hall or stairway? Not the most practical of instruments for indoor use.

No my good man I have not. As indicated I prefer a more civilised game. :pac:

Icepick

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

When I say use a gun in defence, I mean shoot the guy in the leg to keep him away. Would that be legal?

What if the guy has a gun? Can I shoot to kill?

I'm just curious on Ireland's laws. For some reason, I'm more knowledgeable on American laws then Irish laws...

With a gun, you always shoot to kill. You aim at the chest and death is a likely outcome.

seamus

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

There have been occasions in rural Ireland when a group of 3 or more people armed with knives knocked on someone's door and when the person answered the door, they barged in threatening the person with their weapons and continued to rob the house.

I'm not familiar with gun storage laws but I can guarantee that there is no one else in my house and I can also guarantee I'm not suicidal.

Anecdotes are not statistics. It doesn't matter what you've heard or what Jim down the road had to go through. The odds of being assaulted by, or even encountering, an intruder in your home are very low.

Notavirus.exe

seamus wrote: »

Anecdotes are not statistics. It doesn't matter what you've heard or what Jim down the road had to go through. The odds of being assaulted by, or even encountering, an intruder in your home are very low.

Maybe that's what Jim down the road thought too.

seamus

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Maybe that's what Jim down the road thought too.

Well then let's look at the scenario pragmatically;

You have a shotgun hanging on a rack right beside the front door, loaded and ready to go. It is literally within arm's reach for when you need it.

You hear a knock on the door. You look out, there's a guy you don't know standing there. Looks innocent enough. You open the door and two guys come from either side and the 3 of them rush in, knocking you on your arse.

You're now on the floor and your gun is on the wall. Best case scenario, they tie you up, rob everything, including the gun. Possible scenario, they blow out your kneecap with your own gun, tie you up, rob you and your gun, and you lose your leg.
Worst case scenario, they blow your brains out. With your gun.

Having the gun doesn't make the home intrusion less likely or safer. In fact, it massively increases the chances of you being killed or seriously injured. You can replace your stuff. You can't replace your life. And in reality if it becomes known that you have a gun in the house, you're more likely to be targetted because weapons are far more valuable to serious criminals than your TV and other trinkets.

The best defence against potential intruders is a good security system (CCTV would be a much better investment than any weapon) and comprehensive home insurance.

Notavirus.exe

seamus wrote: »

The best defence against potential intruders is a good security system (CCTV would be a much better investment than any weapon) and comprehensive home insurance.

I want to get those things on the windows. You know the metal bars/metal cage on the outside of the window because I'm always afraid that in the middle of the night someone's gonna smash my window and climb in.

Call me silly or extreme, but I also want to get reinforced steel front and back doors.

I won't feel safe in my own home if I don't get those two things.

MarkAnthony

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I want to get those things on the windows. You know the metal bars/metal cage on the outside of the window because I'm always afraid that in the middle of the night someone's gonna smash my window and climb in.

Call me silly or extreme, but I also want to get reinforced steel front and back doors.

I won't feel safe in my own home if I don't get those two things.

Probably better to reinforce the bedroom and turn it into a safe room.

Notavirus.exe

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Probably better to reinforce the bedroom and turn it into a safe room.

I'd be too paranoid to not keep all of my possessions inside the "safe room".

anvilfour

ken wrote: »

Dead burglars tell no lies.

Just ask Oscar Pistorious... :-D

MarkAnthony

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

I'd be too paranoid to not keep all of my possessions inside the "safe room".

They welcome to most of mine; new for old insurance.

Just not sure how I'd accumulate that much porn again but I'm willing to try.

Notavirus.exe

Another question. If someone intrudes on my property who has no reason to be there and is more than likely looking for something to put in the back of their Transit, do I have the right to beat the crap out of them even if they pose no immediate threat to me?

I sound like a crazy psycho, but I'm just curious about these things.

The_Minister

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Q1: I was reading something about burglars breaking into houses and somehow getting injured inside the house, e.g. falling down the stairs and actually winning cases against the owners of the house. This has happened a few times in America, is the law the same in Ireland regarding a matter like this? I mean, if someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night and trips on my (for example) model train set and they break their ankle, can they sue me?.

Surprisingly, I haven't seen a real answer to this yet.

The Occupiers' Liability Act 1995 Section 4 (3):-

(a) Where a person enters onto premises for the purpose of committing an offence or, while present thereon, commits an offence, the occupier shall not be liable for a breach of the duty imposed by subsection (1) (b) unless a court determines otherwise in the interests of justice.

(b) In paragraph (a) “offence” includes an attempted offence.

So you're not liable unless a court decides it's in the interests of justice that you are - which probably won't happen unless you keep a stake pit in your driveway to hunt tigers.

EDIT: But you can still be liable for deliberate harm.

L1011

MarkAnthony wrote: »

They welcome to most of mine; new for old insurance.

Just not sure how I'd accumulate that much porn again but I'm willing to try.

As above, I think my actual valuables / irreplacable items would fit in a box, they can have the rest, I'd like a new TV...

For the latter - cloud storage!

seamus

Notavirus.exe wrote: »

Another question. If someone intrudes on my property who has no reason to be there and is more than likely looking for something to put in the back of their Transit, do I have the right to beat the crap out of them even if they pose no immediate threat to me?

"Beat the crap out of"...no.

The Act of 2011 provides that you may use "reasonable force" to protect you, someone else, or your property.

It only applies when someone is in your home, not just when they're on your land. It also covers you if, e.g. you're staying in a friend's house and you defend yourself against an intruder.

In short, the intruder needs to be in the house, and you need to be satisfied that they pose a threat (not necessarily an immediate one) to you or your property. The force you can use must be reasonable (i.e. enough to drive the person away or detain them for arrest). So you can't take out your stick and beat seven shades out of them. If they start to run, you can't chase them down and batter them.

The Act also contains a specific provision where you forfeit your defence if you goad the person into a fight. In effect, if you chase the guy down and he turns to defend himself, you forfeit your right to claim that you're acting in self-defence. Or if you convince a trespasser to come into the house and then attack them, likewise.

BattleCorp

seamus wrote: »

"Beat the crap out of"...no.

The Act of 2011 provides that you may use "reasonable force" to protect you, someone else, or your property.

It only applies when someone is in your home, not just when they're on your land. It also covers you if, e.g. you're staying in a friend's house and you defend yourself against an intruder.

In short, the intruder needs to be in the house, and you need to be satisfied that they pose a threat (not necessarily an immediate one) to you or your property. The force you can use must be reasonable (i.e. enough to drive the person away or detain them for arrest). So you can't take out your stick and beat seven shades out of them. If they start to run, you can't chase them down and batter them.

Hang on, so I can use reasonable force to protect my property if it is in my house, but I can't use reasonable force to protect my car in my driveway should I discover someone trying to steal it?

Is that what you are saying?

seamus

BattleCorp wrote: »

Hang on, so I can use reasonable force to protect my property if it is in my house, but I can't use reasonable force to protect my car in my driveway should I discover someone trying to steal it?

Is that what you are saying?

That is what I said, but on re-reading the act I'm actually completely incorrect

Yes, if someone is in your driveway attempting to steal your car, then giving them a shove or *ahem* falling against them with your fist outstretched towards their face is legal.

MarkAnthony

A correction if I may. It's not a reasonable force standard. It's a mixed objective and subjective standard detailed above. Its the force the person in the situation believed was reasonable.

Also one needs to consider that in practice you'd be almost guaranteed 3 people on a jury siding with the property owner in the vast majority of cases.

So from a purely hypothetical stand point beating someone until they didn't get up again could be deemed reasonable force if the person reasonably believed the person getting back up again would be a threat. Similarly, I'd argue sneaking up behind an intruder and fatally stabbing them would again be possibly defended.

For the sake of clarity I'm not suggesting these courses of action OP, simply entering into a legal discussion.

BattleCorp

MarkAnthony wrote: »

A correction if I may. It's not a reasonable force standard. It's a mixed objective and subjective standard detailed above. Its the force the person in the situation believed was reasonable.

Also one needs to consider that in practice you'd be almost guaranteed 3 people on a jury siding with the property owner in the vast majority of cases.

So from a purely hypothetical stand point beating someone until they didn't get up again could be deemed reasonable force if the person reasonably believed the person getting back up again would be a threat. Similarly, I'd argue sneaking up behind an intruder and fatally stabbing them would again be possibly defended.

For the sake of clarity I'm not suggesting these courses of action OP, simply entering into a legal discussion.

Once the Gardai investigate the circumstances of your case, could the Gardai and the DPP possibly decide that you used reasonable force and therefore might not charge you, or do you have to be charged and put forward your defence in court once force is used?

MarkAnthony

BattleCorp wrote: »

Once the Gardai investigate the circumstances of your case, could the Gardai and the DPP possibly decide that you used reasonable force and therefore might not charge you, or do you have to be charged and put forward your defence in court once force is used?

The DPP could decide not to prosecute AFAIK.

Effectively though the DPP would have to prove the force was unreasonable in they eyes of the person who carried it out. One should be able to sit there in silence.

They jury may have regard to certain factors given in the legislation, however.

deandean

Well here is my take on home defense 2015:
1. In the face of burglars, transit vans, theives, threats etc you do whatever you feel you need to do to protect yourself, your family, your home, your property.
2. Make no admissions to Gardai.
3. Lawyer up.

anvilfour

deandean wrote: »

Well here is my take on home defense 2015:
1. In the face of burglars, transit vans, theives, threats etc you do whatever you feel you need to do to protect yourself, your family, your home, your property.
2. Make no admissions to Gardai.
3. Lawyer up.

To this I think I would add the advice that prevention is better than cure.

My mother and her husband live next to a public park and had a burglary around ten years ago.

The door was locked but was so flimsy it was smashed down. Their valuables were also insured but things of sentimental value like conduct medals my Mum was awarded at school weren't replaceable.

After it happened StepDad installed a much more secure door, as well as ordered cheap (and prominent!) CCTV camera from eBay which points to the entrance to the house and the park.

They also have a safe in which they store their most valuable possessions now.

Of course none of this is certain to prevent burglars from taking your valuables and you may be in a position where you have to defend yourself but if they see a CCTV camera and a sturdy door, hopefully most of them will be put off.

I'd much rather this happen than be put into a questionable position legally by being forced to go toe to toe with a burglar. Also in the thread so far everyone seems to have assumed you're automatically going to come off better in a fight with someone who is desperate and possibly armed with a jemmy! What if you lose? :-D

Update : In response to a message from another poster I should like to add that one of the people who broke into the house was caught. He admitted to burgling my Mum's house as some kind of plea bargain so Mum couldn't read a victim impact statement. He was sentenced to this and a number of burglaries but wasn't jailed as he's a kid. We suspected it was young people who broke in as they stole a bottle of Jack Daniels but left behind the Irish Whiskey. We really do need a better class of criminal!