Transgender people cannot be godparents

EoghanIRL

Link: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/transsexual-people-cannot-be-godparents-says-vatican-1.2340191

Yet another example of discrimination by the catholic church.

“Therefore it is evident that this person does not possess the requirement of leading a life according to the faith"

I don't see the correlation personally. I think this is actually quite insulting. Some created more equally than others it seems.

.. This behaviour is against man’s nature"

This claim is unfounded. Another case of making up the rules as you go along. Remember when they tried to convince Ireland that homosexuality was unnatural :rolleyes:

Anyway , should transgender people be god parents?

Links234

EoghanIRL wrote: »

Yet another example of discrimination by the catholic church.

Is it though? I mean they're clarifying rules for their own, and quite frankly, their club their rules. Is it unfortunate for anyone who happens to be transgender and catholic? Sure, but discrimination it isn't.

eviltwin

How would the church know? I'm a godparent and I don't think I had to provide a birth cert. I could have been transgender for all the priest knew. There are lots of people who shouldn't qualify but still take the role because it's more than just being a child's spiritual guide. I think parents are the ones best placed to decide who gets the job.

EoghanIRL

Links234 wrote: »

Is it though? I mean they're clarifying rules for their own, and quite frankly, their club their rules. Is it unfortunate for anyone who happens to be transgender and catholic? Sure, but discrimination it isn't.

I am open to being incorrect with my phrasing. What would you call it?

I think what I meant was discrimination within the religion itself not discrimination in a broader sense. Perhaps unfair would have been a better word.
If one was transgender and then all of a sudden was told that they couldn't be a godparent would they not feel that it is unfair? I don't see the correlation between gender and faith myself. If you were to ask me I would say a transgender person would have just as much faith as anyone else in the religion and would be as a good a godparent as any other.

Links234

EoghanIRL wrote: »

If you were to ask me I would say a transgender person would have just as much faith as anyone else in the religion and would be as a good a godparent as any other.

You could be quite right there, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's their club, their rules. Someone who was in a previous marriage might want to get remarried, but since the catholic church doesn't believe in divorce, as far as I understand they won't agree to that marriage. The amount of faith a person has doesn't matter. As long as they're not preventing someone from doing something outside of a religious context, I'm failing to see the issue at all.

Zillah

Links234 wrote: »

You could be quite right there, but that still doesn't change the fact that it's their club, their rules. Someone who was in a previous marriage might want to get remarried, but since the catholic church doesn't believe in divorce, as far as I understand they won't agree to that marriage. The amount of faith a person has doesn't matter. As long as they're not preventing someone from doing something outside of a religious context, I'm failing to see the issue at all.

There's a huge difference in saying "Their club, their rules" and saying "Their club, their rules - rules which perpetuate dehumanising and discriminatory attitudes towards transgender people so their rules are <snip> and we should condemn them for it".

I know that last one isn't exactly snappy but it's important. Acknowledging that a private group has the right to state their own principles is not the same thing as declaring those principles immune to criticism.

MugMugs

If it runs against the beliefs of that society, I really can't see how one could complain. You'd imagine a god parent would hold some faith in the church in order to take that responsibility on. Why would they want a Christian status when the church clearly don't want them?

EoghanIRL

MugMugs wrote: »

If it runs against the beliefs of that society, I really can't see how one could complain. You'd imagine a god parent would hold some faith in the church in order to take that responsibility on. Why would they want a Christian status when the church clearly don't want them?

I don't know about that. It seems that being a god parent is a bit of a social thing these days in my experience. I know people who are godparents but are non practicing.

katydid

Links234 wrote: »

Is it though? I mean they're clarifying rules for their own, and quite frankly, their club their rules. Is it unfortunate for anyone who happens to be transgender and catholic? Sure, but discrimination it isn't.

What about divorced people, people "living in sin", homosexuals...?

katydid

EoghanIRL wrote: »

I don't know about that. It seems that being a god parent is a bit of a social thing these days in my experience. I know people who are godparents but are non practicing.

AKA, hypocrites.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

So much oppression...ugh hate crime...cisgender patriarchal hate transophobia homophobic bigotry...lacking for words...oppression...

hinault

MugMugs wrote: »

If it runs against the beliefs of that society, I really can't see how one could complain. You'd imagine a god parent would hold some faith in the church in order to take that responsibility on. Why would they want a Christian status when the church clearly don't want them?

"Transgender" person and the parents of the child, each should know that those
required to be god parents must lead a life faithful to Catholic teaching.

katydid

hinault wrote: »

"Transgender" person and the parents of the child, each should know that those
required to be god parents must lead a life faithful to Catholic teaching.

If that is the criterion for being a godparent, there are an awful lot of godparents out there who don't qualify. Why is the church picking on certain lifestyles or issues and ignoring others?

The Randy Riverbeast

Doesnt it depend on the priest?

Some priests would be more strict than others. My unmarried parents were a protestant and a weddings/funeral/baptism kind of catholic. Many transgender people would have a more catholic lifestyle than them.

katydid

The Randy Riverbeast wrote: »

Doesnt it depend on the priest?

Some priests would be more strict than others. My unmarried parents were a protestant and a weddings/funeral/baptism kind of catholic. Many transgender people would have a more catholic lifestyle than them.

It shouldn't depend on the priest. Rules are rules.

But they are enforced unevenly, which is unfair

eviltwin

The church accepts other sinners for the role so why single out transgender people. And how do the plan to enforce it I don't think the majority of parents see the role of godparent as being about spiritual guidance if it ever was. It's about picking a well rounded person who you see as being able to make a positive contribution to a child's life. Yes it's hypocritical but in most cases that ship has already sailed.

Benny_Cake

Ultimately it's a form of discrimination, not in the legal sense, but in the sense that the church has the right to decide who can be a godparent, just as they have the right to decide who can get married in a Catholic Church. Nobody has the right to be a godparent.

That said,it's disappointing to see this, not least as it seems to be based on outdated views regarding gender in general and transgender people in particular. Many transgender people are committed Christians, no doubt some are Catholics and would make excellent godparents.

katydid

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Ultimately it's a form of discrimination, not in the legal sense, but in the sense that the church has the right to decide who can be a godparent, just as they have the right to decide who can get married in a Catholic Church. Nobody has the right to be a godparent. .

Yes, it has the right. But it also has a moral duty to be seen to have integrity. There is no integrity in picking people who "transgress" certain elements of Roman Catholic morality and ignoring others. That's rank hypocrisy.

If the role of godparent were limited to perfect Roman Catholics, who obey every stricture of their faith, there would be very few godparents out there.

Michael OBrien

eviltwin wrote: »

How would the church know? I'm a godparent and I don't think I had to provide a birth cert. I could have been transgender for all the priest knew. There are lots of people who shouldn't qualify but still take the role because it's more than just being a child's spiritual guide. I think parents are the ones best placed to decide who gets the job.

I don't see how they can enforce this. I am an atheist that is the god parent to two children. No background checks took place. So for a transgender person, unless they go out of their way to tell the priest, I would imagine the priest will be none the wiser.
Unless the person is really into the whole religious belief and takes it as more than a nice social and family event where the child gets an extra present a few times a year.
What happens if a godparent realises they are transgender after being a god parent, do they get a call from the vatican telling them to report to their local priest for a scolding?

katydid

Michael OBrien wrote: »

I don't see how they can enforce this. I am an atheist that is the god parent to two children. No background checks took place. So for a transgender person, unless they go out of their way to tell the priest, I would imagine the priest will be none the wiser.
Unless the person is really into the whole religious belief and takes it as more than a nice social and family event where the child gets an extra present a few times a year.
What happens if a godparent realises they are transgender after being a god parent, do they get a call from the vatican telling them to report to their local priest for a scolding?

They won't enforce it in general, but it just gives some cranky priest an excuse to lay down the law if he feels like it.

Peregrinus

katydid wrote: »

They won't enforce it in general, but it just gives some cranky priest an excuse to lay down the law if he feels like it.

This. We've already noted in this forum that the rules about godparents are one of the areas where there's a pretty wide gap between what is written in the edicts from Rome, and what happens on the ground in parishes.

The people primarily charged with implementing these particular rules are the parents of the child to be baptised; not all priests feel it is their job to second-guess the decisions made by parents.

katydid

Peregrinus wrote: »

This. We've already noted in this forum that the rules about godparents are one of the areas where there's a pretty wide gap between what is written in the edicts from Rome, and what happens on the ground in parishes.

The people primarily charged with implementing these particular rules are the parents of the child to be baptised; not all priests feel it is their job to second-guess the decisions made by parents.

It's their job to apply the rules.

Peregrinus

katydid wrote: »

It's their job to apply the rules.

On this one, it's the parents' job. The relevant canon says so.

To be a sponsor, a person must be "designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister" (Canon 874-1-1). So an adult candidate for baptism chooses his or her own sponsor, but for an infant the choice is made by the parents or guardians. The pastor can only make the choice if the parents are "absent".

The parents obviously have a responsibility to choose a fit and qualified person who conforms to the requirements of canon law (be over 16, be confirmed, not be one of the parents themselves, etc, etc) but, again, it's the parents' responsiblity, not the pastor's.

The pastor's job is to make sure that the parents' know what their responsibilities are (and no doubt now he'll be telling them they shouldn't choose a transgender godparent). But it's still not his job to make the choice for them.

Mrs OBumble

Michael OBrien wrote: »

I don't see how they can enforce this. I am an atheist that is the god parent to two children.

Sorry, but how can you possibly be a god parent when you don't believe in God?

The mind boggles ....

eviltwin

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Sorry, but how can you possibly be a god parent when you don't believe in God?

The mind boggles ....

The role of godparent has evolved. It's no longer about protecting the spiritual wellbeing of the child if it ever was. The godparents of my daughter were both atheist. One converted to Islam a few years ago. It's no big deal. Tbh she was only baptised in the first place because it was the done thing at the time.

c_man

eviltwin wrote: »

The role of godparent has evolved....
Tbh she was only baptised in the first place because it was the done thing at the time.

Doesn't sound like it's evolving, just that its meaning is being ignored by some people.

katydid

eviltwin wrote: »

The role of godparent has evolved. It's no longer about protecting the spiritual wellbeing of the child if it ever was. The godparents of my daughter were both atheist. One converted to Islam a few years ago. It's no big deal. Tbh she was only baptised in the first place because it was the done thing at the time.

Not true. The role is the same as it ever was. Just because some people are interpreting it differently and some priest are letting them away with it doesn't mean that the actual role has changed in any way.

Baptising someone because it's the "done thing" is hypocritical and an abuse of the priest's and the congregation's time.

katydid

Peregrinus wrote: »

On this one, it's the parents' job. The relevant canon says so.

To be a sponsor, a person must be "designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister" (Canon 874-1-1). So an adult candidate for baptism chooses his or her own sponsor, but for an infant the choice is made by the parents or guardians. The pastor can only make the choice if the parents are "absent".

The parents obviously have a responsibility to choose a fit and qualified person who conforms to the requirements of canon law (be over 16, be confirmed, not be one of the parents themselves, etc, etc) but, again, it's the parents' responsiblity, not the pastor's.

The pastor's job is to make sure that the parents' know what their responsibilities are (and no doubt now he'll be telling them they shouldn't choose a transgender godparent). But it's still not his job to make the choice for them.

The church has the right, has it not, to decide whether or not a person is suitable. Whatever about clear issues like that the person conforms, as you say, to canon law, are you basically saying that beyond that, the priest or the church is not in a position to prevent a person from being a god parent even if they are clearly out of step with church teaching?

If that is the case, why are we even discussing whether or not transgendered people can be god parents?

eviltwin

katydid wrote: »

Not true. The role is the same as it ever was. Just because some people are interpreting it differently and some priest are letting them away with it doesn't mean that the actual role has changed in any way.

Baptising someone because it's the "done thing" is hypocritical and an abuse of the priest's and the congregation's time.

That's a more accurate translation of what I was trying to say. Yeah, it's the perception of the role that has changed.

I was very hypocritical, I didn't really want to do it and have regretted it ever since. My daughter hasn't let me forget it. It was a long time ago but things haven't really changed. But why would they when it suits everyone?

katydid

eviltwin wrote: »

That's a more accurate translation of what I was trying to say. Yeah, it's the perception of the role that has changed.

I was very hypocritical, I didn't really want to do it and have regretted it ever since. My daughter hasn't let me forget it. It was a long time ago but things haven't really changed. But why would they when it suits everyone?

At least you acknowledge that. That's something.

At the end of the day, the child is welcomed into the Christian family, whether or not its parents or godparents are really committed to the idea. When the child grows up, it is free to decide to make a commitment to confirm what was promised at its baptism.

I just wonder how a person is supposed to be a moral guide to anyone if they are quite happy and unashamed to admit that they stood at a solemn occasion and lied in front of a church full of people/

eviltwin

katydid wrote: »

At least you acknowledge that. That's something.

At the end of the day, the child is welcomed into the Christian family, whether or not its parents or godparents are really committed to the idea. When the child grows up, it is free to decide to make a commitment to confirm what was promised at its baptism.

I just wonder how a person is supposed to be a moral guide to anyone if they are quite happy and unashamed to admit that they stood at a solemn occasion and lied in front of a church full of people/

I think it's a bit far reaching to think that children lack moral guardians just on the basis of being baptised. Majority of people doing things in the church are not living Catholic lives, they are hypocritical but it doesn't mean they can't provide a good example. A lot of people who are good Catholics are very narrow minded and judgemental, I wouldn't want that influence for my child. No one is perfect, you pick the person you think will be the best influence on your child's life.

frag420

hinault wrote: »

"Transgender" person and the parents of the child, each should know that those
required to be god parents must lead a life faithful to Catholic teaching.

Should I hand back my god parent badge as I am as far from being a catholic/Christian as you are likely to get.

Or maybe the fact that I look after my godchild as best I can, will show her right from wrong and take care of here when required will suffice? Or does the Catholic Church have a monopoly or what's rights and wrong and nobody these can say any different?

Gerry T

frag420 wrote: »

Should I hand back my god parent badge as I am as far from being a catholic/Christian as you are likely to get.

Or maybe the fact that I look after my godchild as best I can, will show her right from wrong and take care of here when required will suffice? Or does the Catholic Church have a monopoly or what's rights and wrong and nobody these can say any different?

you sound like a good parent to me

frag420

Gerry T wrote: »

you sound like a good parent to me

I'm not a good parent......I'm a good god parent! Just ask my GodChild as she knows that people who are different should still be treated with love and respect regardless of their gender, colour etc!!

Now if only a certain organisation that preaches love would show the same respect to others......

eviltwin

frag420 wrote: »

Should I hand back my god parent badge as I am as far from being a catholic/Christian as you are likely to get.

Or maybe the fact that I look after my godchild as best I can, will show her right from wrong and take care of here when required will suffice? Or does the Catholic Church have a monopoly or what's rights and wrong and nobody these can say any different?

In the eyes of the church you're probably a terrible role model. Anyone not raising their children in their preferred way is but I don't think it's possible to be an open minded, loving, non judgemental parent and keep to the teachings of the church.

c_man

frag420 wrote: »

Or does the Catholic Church have a monopoly or what's rights and wrong and nobody these can say any different?

The Catholic Church usually have something to say on defined roles in their belief structure, and the requirements that that role should entail. Hardly surprising.

Honestly how can people enter into a Church ceremony in a Church (!), go through the whole thing and then give out that their own personal definition doesn't match with that that the organisation says?!

Old Jakey

You cannot be a godfather/mother when you were born a woman/man. This is common sense.

Old Jakey

eviltwin wrote: »

How would the church know? I'm a godparent and I don't think I had to provide a birth cert. I could have been transgender for all the priest knew. There are lots of people who shouldn't qualify but still take the role because it's more than just being a child's spiritual guide. I think parents are the ones best placed to decide who gets the job.

It would be pretty obvious if you were a transsesxual!

Mrs OBumble

frag420 wrote: »

Should I hand back my god parent badge as I am as far from being a catholic/Christian as you are likely to get.

Or maybe the fact that I look after my godchild as best I can, will show her right from wrong and take care of here when required will suffice?

What you have described is nothing to do with being a godparent, as defined by the church.

Fair play to you if you are assisting the parents to raise their child in a good way, as defined by other institutions or your own personal moral code.

But you are not fulfilling the role of godparent, and yes, you should hand that particular badge back and call yourself the child's fairy-mother / father (or whatever else matches your and the parents value systems).

frag420

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

What you have described is nothing to do with being a godparent, as defined by the church.

Fair play to you if you are assisting the parents to raise their child in a good way, as defined by other institutions or your own personal moral code.

But you are not fulfilling the role of godparent, and yes, you should hand that particular badge back and call yourself the child's fairy-mother / father (or whatever else matches your and the parents value systems).

So what is the role of God Parent?

katydid

frag420 wrote: »

So what is the role of God Parent?

According to canon law, to "help the baptized to lead a Christian life in harmony with baptism, and to fulfill faithfully the obligations connected with it"

In theory, you don't have to believe in God to do that, but you have to believe in God to make the promises as a sponsor at the font - unless you are happy to lie.

katydid

Old Jakey wrote: »

It would be pretty obvious if you were a transsesxual!

Not necessarily

katydid

frag420 wrote: »

Should I hand back my god parent badge as I am as far from being a catholic/Christian as you are likely to get.

Or maybe the fact that I look after my godchild as best I can, will show her right from wrong and take care of here when required will suffice? Or does the Catholic Church have a monopoly or what's rights and wrong and nobody these can say any different?

Simple question - do you believe in God?

If yes, then you are absolutely right, you are a normal person with strengths and weaknesses, and have every right to be responsible, in part, for the spiritual and religious development of a child.

If no, then you lied at the ceremony, and should hand back the badge.

katydid

eviltwin wrote: »

I think it's a bit far reaching to think that children lack moral guardians just on the basis of being baptised. Majority of people doing things in the church are not living Catholic lives, they are hypocritical but it doesn't mean they can't provide a good example. A lot of people who are good Catholics are very narrow minded and judgemental, I wouldn't want that influence for my child. No one is perfect, you pick the person you think will be the best influence on your child's life.

I never said that children lack moral guardians on the basis of being baptised.

But if someone stands in church, and tells lies in front of a priest and a congregation, how can they have any moral authority with the young person they are supposed to be helping to develop spiritually and morally?

katydid

Gerry T wrote: »

you sound like a good parent to me

This discussion is about GOD parents, not GOOD parents.

frag420

katydid wrote: »

Simple question - do you believe in God?

If yes, then you are absolutely right, you are a normal person with strengths and weaknesses, and have every right to be responsible, in part, for the spiritual and religious development of a child.

If no, then you lied at the ceremony, and should hand back the badge.

Yup I lied! But I shall instil all those good things on my godchild because you know what.....Christians are not the only people that can lead good lives and teach others the same!

And I'm keeping the badge. If the priest wants it back he may ask for it.....I have s few questions for him on morality that need answering!!

eviltwin

katydid wrote: »

I never said that children lack moral guardians on the basis of being baptised.

But if someone stands in church, and tells lies in front of a priest and a congregation, how can they have any moral authority with the young person they are supposed to be helping to develop spiritually and morally?

We're talking about the RCC, not really the one to lecture anyone on morality in fairness. I don't see it as a lie, just like saying prayers in mass you don't mean is a lie. Life is made up of little lies, things we say when they are expected. I appreciate some devout people might be horrified by the whole thing but Irish Catholicism is more a cultural thing than a spiritual one.

katydid

eviltwin wrote: »

We're talking about the RCC, not really the one to lecture anyone on morality in fairness. I don't see it as a lie, just like saying prayers in mass you don't mean is a lie. Life is made up of little lies, things we say when they are expected. I appreciate some devout people might be horrified by the whole thing but Irish Catholicism is more a cultural thing than a spiritual one.

Hang on. The RCC is not fundamentally an immoral entity. It just had many immoral people who put the institution or their own pleasure before the welfare of the faithful. The purpose of the institution is positive and good, and the vast majority of members, lay and clergy, are decent, good-living people.

You don't think that saying "I believe in God" at an important ceremony in a context where the celebrant and the congregation think belief in God is important is lying? Are you serious?

How people treat Roman Catholicism in Ireland does not mean that is what Roman Catholicism is.

katydid

frag420 wrote: »

Yup I lied! But I shall instil all those good things on my godchild because you know what.....Christians are not the only people that can lead good lives and teach others the same!

And I'm keeping the badge. If the priest wants it back he may ask for it.....I have s few questions for him on morality that need answering!!

So when your godchild asks you why you lied, what will your answer be? That it's ok to lie in order to go along with things, and fit in?

eviltwin

katydid wrote: »

Hang on. The RCC is not fundamentally an immoral entity. It just had many immoral people who put the institution or their own pleasure before the welfare of the faithful. The purpose of the institution is positive and good, and the vast majority of members, lay and clergy, are decent, good-living people.

You don't think that saying "I believe in God" at an important ceremony in a context where the celebrant and the congregation think belief in God is important is lying? Are you serious?

How people treat Roman Catholicism in Ireland does not mean that is what Roman Catholicism is.

I don't think it's serious at all. As I said it's the norm now. You don't think all those couples getting married in churches mean what they say do you or the parents of those babies being baptised?

lazygal

katydid wrote: »

I never said that children lack moral guardians on the basis of being baptised.

But if someone stands in church, and tells lies in front of a priest and a congregation, how can they have any moral authority with the young person they are supposed to be helping to develop spiritually and morally?

This is why I'd never be a godparent and why I don't understand people justifying their being one on the grounds that they didn't believe the words of the ceremony and treated what's supposed to be a religious ceremony as some sort of secular ritual. If people stopped going along with these things it'd be more honest for all concerned.