Walther KK500

intershoot

just saw this and wondered if anyone didnt want it for christmas?

lovely innit :P

some of us had a look at this when it was unveiled in Munich, and it is a superb bit of kit. It has incorporated many of the attractive features of the swiss market leaders, but done so in a much more sensibly engineered fashion, which we all know the Germans are good at!!

Lovely gun to hold, and it'll hopefully be a dream to shoot as well!!

IRLConor

I got my mitts on a prototype in Munich earlier this year. While I didn't get to shoot it, it looks like a great rifle. Lots of nice features. If I didn't already have most of them on my current .22 I'd consider buying one!

intershoot

IRLConor wrote: »

I got my mitts on a prototype in Munich earlier this year. While I didn't get to shoot it, it looks like a great rifle. Lots of nice features. If I didn't already have most of them on my current .22 I'd consider buying one!

I've a feeling these will be more durable and although I had a Bleiker myself, and mine behaved well, there has been a lot of chatter about barrels wearing out prematurely, ejector issues and cracking to the locking lugs.

The G&E is a thing of beauty, but as I said to my learned side-kick, it's the same as a super car...........lovely to look at but likely to break your heart and the bank account in a short period of time.

I really like the Walther, all the good bits engineered in a durable fashion, and the bonus of being ambidextrous makes it much easier to sell on should you feel the need.

Spose we'll just have to wait and see!

IRLConor

intershoot wrote: »

I've a feeling these will be more durable and although I had a Bleiker myself, and mine behaved well, there has been a lot of chatter about barrels wearing out prematurely, ejector issues and cracking to the locking lugs.

The G&E is a thing of beauty, but as I said to my learned side-kick, it's the same as a super car...........lovely to look at but likely to break your heart and the bank account in a short period of time.

I really like the Walther, all the good bits engineered in a durable fashion, and the bonus of being ambidextrous makes it much easier to sell on should you feel the need.

Spose we'll just have to wait and see!

I've heard some of the rumblings about broken Bleikers. I've never had any issues with mine but I'm particular about keeping it clean and I don't use non-Eley ammo with the Eley bolt. I suspect there are some numpties who put a few thousand Lapua through a Bleiker with an Eley bolt and stressed the locking lugs.

I could definitely see future problems with my ejector though. If it's cold and wet and if I've shot maybe 100 rounds or so it can get a little sticky. It has only stuck briefly maybe 5 times in the tens of thousands of rounds I've put through mine. If it does that more often this winter I'll pick up a spare. It's only a 10 minute job to replace anyway.

The biggest bonus for the KK500 is the price. It looks like it's about 2/3 the price of a Bleiker/G+E with a lot of the same benefits in ergonomics. If it shoots well – and it probably will – then I can see it taking a very large chunk out of Anschütz's market share in the ISSF game.

Sparks

Hm. Anschutz's new air rifle looks interesting though (or at least the stock does)...



Seriously nice clearance under that cheekpiece...

IRLConor

Sparks wrote: »

Hm. Anschutz's new air rifle looks interesting though (or at least the stock does)...

I played with it a little in Munich. The stock is very nice. Lots of useful adjustment.

Call me shallow though, but it's ugly as sin.

Sparks

Ach, that's something for everyone else to worry about, you're looking at the target :P

tac foley

All this talk of the inherent fragility of a 5000eu target rifle gives me the hoots. IRLConor, who knows about these things, notes that putting one kind of .22 ammunition through a rifle similar to his, that cost as much as a reasonable second-hand family car, would put unwanted stress and strain on the bolt locking lugs. WHAT??????

Gentlemen - I have a bunch of .22 rifles that must have had half a million shots down them, and they still shoot anything I put through them. My dad's Walther was made in 1929, and I took it over when he died back in '71. I've put a bazillion shots down it of all kinds of stuff with never a hint of disintegrating components. Back in 1963 my dad bought a replacement recoil spring - just in case - I still have it, ready to use if needed.

tac

Sparks

tac foley wrote: »

Gentlemen - I have a bunch of .22 rifles that must have had half a million shots down them, and they still shoot anything I put through them.

Yeah, but they're not as accurate, not as adjustable to the shooter, and not as suitable for the sport. You're comparing the family car to a formula 1 racecar. The racecar's useless for nipping down to the shops for some milk, but the family car won't win at Silverstone.

tac foley

Yes, I comprehend that point, having been a competitive shooter with great lack of success for the last fifty-five or more years. But other examples of four of them were the Gold Medal winners of their day and nothing has broken on any of them...

tac

Sparks

I didn't realise you had four gold olympic medals in 50m shooting Tac, well done!

tac foley

Let me just rephrase that post, so that you don't accuse me of telling less than the truth. See above edited post.

However, just in case of ANY misunderstanding, I DO actually own a Feinwerkbau F70 air rifle that belonged to the Paralympic Gold Medal winner of the Beijing Games - Matt Skelhon, who was at that time a member of our gun club. It was not, however, the 'winning' rifle. but was sold to me to help sub the one he used to win his medal.

The others are BSA Martini rifles and an Anschutz rifle.

tac

Sparks

Yeah, the P70 was a good air rifle in its day, better than the Walther and Anschutz models that were its contemporaries. (Yes, I've shot one, in competition, and I've shot the others too, in competition, one for a decade).
It's not competitive today. Which is why you don't see it in the finals anymore.

The BSA martini can have the same thing said about it and probably the Anschutz as well.

But there's a reason that companies can make money selling rifles for this much money. People are not buying them because they're shiny, they're buying them because they make it possible to hit higher scores. The rifles from ten years ago can't compete. Today's rifles are better made, are easier to fit to the shooter, and are better at the job. We know - because we've shot both. DURC's rifles for newbies are all older than the newbies. I've shot BSA martinis and Vickers martinis and Anschutz 16, 17, 18 and 19x series rifles and I own a 20x series. I've shot daisies and feinwerkbaus and walthers dating from the 60s through to today - break-barrel, springer, pneumatic and pre-compressed. And it's an LG400 I own today and it's better than anything that came before it in any meaningful category for ISSF rifles.

Yeah, I would still start a newbie on a BSA martini, but newbies aren't the target market for the KK500 or the ONE stock or the LG400; the competitive circuit is. Thinking they're a bit fragile compared to a rifle made in the 1960s when there wasn't any available viable alternative to a giant chunk of wood for stocks is just... completely wrongheaded.

civdef

OK, but why do the rifles need to have fragile locking lugs to be accurate? That makes very little sense to me from an engineering standpoint?

IRLConor

civdef wrote: »

OK, but why do the rifles need to have fragile locking lugs to be accurate? That makes very little sense to me from an engineering standpoint?

It's not really an issue of the locking lugs per se, but more that the rim thickness on ELEY rounds is a little thinner than Lapua/RWS. If you use a Bleiker bolt set for ELEY ammunition it's noticeably stiffer to close. Some of that stiffness is the shooter grinding the locking lugs off the grooves they're supposed to smoothly engage with. If you let the rifle get dirty enough you see the same effect. If you use the wrong ammunition and you don't clean the rifle properly then you'll have to use even more force to close the bolt.

This isn't really a "delicate" vs "robust" argument. If the bolt is stiff to close on a Lee Enfield and you force it 10,000+ times then something will eventually break.

If people are stupid enough to do something that's obviously wrong and which they have been told not to do by the manufacturer then they should expect their rifle to break.

It wasn't me!

I suspect much the same as the lads in respect of why Bleikers had problems with lugs shearing off (and have heard anecdotally that this is precisely the case in respect of one of them). The likes of Anschutz and Walther and so on cut a chamber with excess headspace to accommodate any ammo you want to fire in it, for a given value of any. Really nasty muck will give you problems in even these very forgiving chambers. The likes of Bleiker offers you the tightest headspace and finest chambering job possible. The effect of this is however that you don't have the same freedom to run whatever's going through the rifle. There's your tradeoff. Bleiker makes the bolt ammo-specific; G&E supply headspace shims with their latest rifle so you can adjust it to suit what you're using (Lessons learned from the Bleiker?). They also have a more robust ejector arrangement, a dry-fire switch which allows the trigger to be cocked and fired while the firing pin is restrained from going forward. There's a huge amount of innovation taking place in the design of top end smallbore rifles these days and with the finesse and precision comes a certain amount of delicacy too.

civdef

Thanks for the explanation on those lads, next question- does the tighter tolerances show improvements accuracy wise?

It wasn't me!

civdef wrote: »

Thanks for the explanation on those lads, next question- does the tighter tolerances show improvements accuracy wise?

Yes, absolutely. Bleiker and G&E are the most obvious contenders but they're setting serious records for accuracy in Eley's test ranges. G&E's promotional literature is boasting a 13.1mm edge to edge 40-shot group from the German range, and Bleikers have been shooting astonishing groups too, setting records over and over again.

IRLConor

civdef wrote: »

Thanks for the explanation on those lads, next question- does the tighter tolerances show improvements accuracy wise?

Usually the way to gauge this for ISSF is to look at what's winning medals at the top level in 50m men's prone and what rifles are setting the records at the test ranges. The most recent final in the World Cup Finals in Munich had 7 Bleikers and one "Anschütz" that has an aftermarket barrel and has been tuned within an inch of its life by the USAMU armourers.

ELEY publish their test range records online and here's the current consolidated list of records:

Barrel|Score ex 654|40 shot group size|Range
Bleiker|642.71|13.2|Germany
Bleiker|642.48|14.1|Germany
Bleiker|642.14|12.4|Germany
Bleiker|641.86|14.0|UK
Muller 4 MI|641.83|14.8|USA
Shilen Octagon|641.33|14.9|USA
Bleiker|641.32|15.2|UK
Shilen Octagon|641.32|16.0|USA
Bleiker|641.19|13.9|UK
G+E Racer|640.26|15.2|Norway
Bleiker|639.66|15.8|Norway
G+E R2|639.26|16.2|Norway


They don't publish the information, but I think that the Muller barrel and one of the Shilen's was attached to a Stiller 2500x action and the second Shilen was attached to a Stiller Copperhead. So between the 20 rifles across the WCF and ELEY's records, you have 14 Bleikers, 2 G+E and 4 custom rifles.

It wasn't me!

Just had a quick look at the WCF results for the men's smallbore events there and across the qualifications, for twenty total starts, 17 were Bleikers. That's impressive! Less dominant among the women, interestingly enough. Only three of the ten who were to start were using Bleiker, and two in the final. A Bleiker shooter did win it, mind.

tac foley

The success of Bleiker speaks for itself.

tac

It wasn't me!

In terms of position shooting its biggest advantage seems to be its ergonomics. While the design makes for a very inherently accurate rifle, it's a big chunky action, which brings the weight back towards the shooter's centre of gravity. The loading port is right over the trigger, making for extremely easy loading in position with no stretching or straining. Loading in position in standing is trivial, and it's absolutely not with an Anschutz. A lightweight tube and with the barrel starting further back in the action means the shooter has a long sight base which enables accurate aiming and while the overall length is long, it balances better due to having the weight back concentrated at the shooter's chest and trigger hand than a traditional action. All these factors and a trigger that's phenomenally crisp with lighting quick lock time means the system is optimised to take some of the sting out of the shooter's own errors and enables better results for the same performance level. It might not be competitive in the benchrest world, but for position shooting it's king of the hill.

IRLConor

tac foley wrote: »

The success of Bleiker speaks for itself.

Until someone comes along and makes a better rifle!

That's the beauty of the progress that's being made at the moment. The level of competition between the manufacturers is producing some great results. Hopefully the KK500 gives another bit of motivation to the likes of Bleiker & G+E to keep improving their products.

As an example of the progress being made, the number of shooters shooting the old world record has increased measurably. Before men's prone went to decimal scoring the world record was the maximum possible - 600 points. In the 23 years since the targets changed in 1989 until the time the rules changed after London 2012 it was equalled only 14 times by 9 people. This year, all four ISSF World Cups had at least one 600 shot in the men's prone event.

IRLConor

It wasn't me! wrote: »

It might not be competitive in the benchrest world

Part of this is almost certainly due to the weight limits. Mine is over the HV limit with iron sights on it. Now, I could probably get it under by taking the sights and butt plate off but I'd have precious little room left for a scope.

Sparks

On top of the improvements to the action, look at the actual stock itself and note the depth of the stock below the cheekpiece. In that new ONE stock (And in others like the MEC revolution stocks), there's very very little material compared to the old 1970s vintage design of rifle where the material used (wood) didn't allow for so little actual structure.

Problem is, in the standing position, there's a rule prohibiting contact between the chest and the rifle stock, and while it's not a major problem for men, it can be for women. These new stocks even up the playing field there.

Plus, if you spend as much as you have to in order to buy one, it's nice if it fits

Baker.22

IRLConor wrote: »

Part of this is almost certainly due to the weight limits. Mine is over the HV limit with iron sights on it. Now, I could probably get it under by taking the sights and butt plate off but I'd have precious little room left for a scope.

Hi IRLConnor,
I shoot benchrest, I'm really surprised that your Blieker (I think this is your rifle) is over the HV weight, what weight is the Barreled action? I'm currently interested in a G & E R3, I believe I can get this to fit into the LV and HV classes including a 45x scope and barrel tuners. There are a few being used to great effect(Blieker and G & E) in benchrest, but in the U.S. They are so much more expensive than the American custom guns, but within Europe they compare well with importing a U.S. Custom rifle to here. G & E also have another range record 40 group with th R3 of 13.1

Baker.22

IRLConor

Baker.22 wrote: »

Hi IRLConnor,
I shoot benchrest, I'm really surprised that your Blieker (I think this is your rifle) is over the HV weight, what weight is the Barreled action? I'm currently interested in a G & E R3, I believe I can get this to fit into the LV and HV classes including a 45x scope and barrel tuners. There are a few being used to great effect(Blieker and G & E) in benchrest, but in the U.S. They are so much more expensive than the American custom guns, but within Europe they compare well with importing a U.S. Custom rifle to here. G & E also have another range record 40 group with th R3 of 13.1

Baker.22

My rifle set up for prone is 6.25kg. Set up for standing it's about 7kg. The HV limit is 13.5lb (6.12kg), right? I don't know what weight the barrel and action are by themselves. When I next have the rifle in the same place as a scales I'll check it out.

Witcher

HV limit is 15lbs

IRLConor

Strider wrote: »

HV limit is 15lbs

Ah, right, a bit more leeway then. I can't ever remember numbers quoted in imperial!

Baker.22

IRLConor wrote: »

My rifle set up for prone is 6.25kg. Set up for standing it's about 7kg. The HV limit is 13.5lb (6.12kg), right? I don't know what weight the barrel and action are by themselves. When I next have the rifle in the same place as a scales I'll check it out.

Your rifle is very heavy, didn't think it would be, it's 10.5 for LV and 15 for HV, I would think your rifle without sights and stock would weight around 7lbs, if you got a benchrest stock and scope away you go, the Benchrest champion in France shoots with a Blieker with a march scope, he has both bolts so that he can use different ammo, I shoot a 2013 Anchutz with Lilja barrel, headspace set to R50, shoots great now with a good batch !!!!

IRLConor

Baker.22 wrote: »

Your rifle is very heavy, didn't think it would be

In terms of ISSF shooting it's not particularly heavy. Even when I have it set up for standing I have roughly another 1kg before I hit the weight limit.

Baker.22 wrote: »

I would think your rifle without sights and stock would weight around 7lbs, if you got a benchrest stock and scope away you go.

My stock is only 1.2kg without the fittings. I'd be surprised if the sights, buttplate and handstop weighed more than the stock. Either way, I'll weigh it next time I have the chance.

Baker.22 wrote: »

I shoot a 2013 Anchutz with Lilja barrel, headspace set to R50, shoots great now with a good batch !!!!

There's a lot to be said for a good batch of ammo!

IRLConor

IRLConor wrote: »

My rifle set up for prone is 6.25kg. Set up for standing it's about 7kg. The HV limit is 13.5lb (6.12kg), right? I don't know what weight the barrel and action are by themselves. When I next have the rifle in the same place as a scales I'll check it out.

I know this is months later, but I happen to have a scales and the rifle in the same place at the moment and I remembered I said I'd weigh the relevant bits.

Barrelled action: 2.963kg
Bolt: 0.173kg
Stock: 1.621kg

So the total weight of a minimal setup with no sights, tube, buttplate or any of the other fittings is: 4.757kg

FLOYDSTER

Had this for a few weeks now!, it is a really nice rifle!;)

IRLConor

FLOYDSTER wrote: »

Had this for a few weeks now!, it is a really nice rifle!;)

Very shiny!