Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

PressRun

km79 wrote: »

Big step up
Dublin have added very few too

Big step up and also a big commitment for young people. Some of them simply aren't prepared to do it. Or think they can do it while continuing to live the lifestyle of the average 21/22 year old, which is obviously not possible. Also, a couple of the stand out players from last year's U21 campaign are still quite young and will still be playing at that level again this year. One would hope that Akram might make the step up in a year or two, but who knows.

On Jason Gibbons, I think he's a decent player, but is he a player for the latter stages of the championship? Is he likely to get game time? Jury's still out on Kirby, but I think Gibbons is there long enough and doesn't have the midfield presence that others in the squad have. The partnership in the middle will be O'Shea and Parsons anyway. I'd be shocked if there's any deviation from that. Remains to be seen what role Kirby will play or Boland for that matter. Boland may be similar to Alan Dillon but Dillon won't be around forever. This will very possibly be his last year. Be no harm to have another player of his ilk in the squad to take the reins after him.

MayoAreMagic

tritium wrote: »

Not sure if serious........

http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/the-rise-and-rise-brian-fenton/

100% serious. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying he isn't a good player at all, he is a serious addition to the team. But if you consider, he was never involved underage with the county. He wouldn't be like a real classy footballer for example, like a David Moran type. You wouldn't have him on the 45s and he isn't going to open a defence with a 30 metre kickpass. If you recall his goal chances against mayo, he actually scuffed them wide every time (lucky for him, straight to Bernard Brogan!) - nothing wrong with that either, it isn't what he is there for, but it just illustrates the point that he isn't a massively skilful player, but is a hugely effective player.


He has more physical attributes, athleticism, mobility and the ones I listed earlier. That, combined with Cluxton's kicking makes them a hugely effective combination, particularly when he is competing with guys who generally are slower and less mobile than him. That is why when Barry - no superstar footballer, but very mobile, strong and direct, was put onto him, to essentially counter his advantage in the middle third. It is similar to sticking a target man in at FF on a small FB. It made donaghy look like a super player, when in truth his skillset would be limited enough, by his own admission. An awful lot of football is about isolating mismatches and fenton has been a great weapon on this front.

It isn't a criticism at all, just a critique of what makes him so effective in the modern game. A similar argument could be made for McAuley, and you have to credit Dublin for realising the requirement for a certain type of player, although it is easier when you have so many to call on...

rrs

boosabum wrote: »

Michael Dara McAuley is also someone that would fit into that bracket. The basic skill of kicking the ball is'nt something he is renowned for, yet he's an incredibly athletic around the field

An average footballer but a great athlete. He isn't particularly good at soloing the ball either. Bounces it 50 yards and hand passes it off.


Dubs a bit sensitive of criticism of their players. McCauley is bang average on skill sets. Cillian O Sullivan more of an an athlete then footballer too.

but that's the modern game

Bonniedog

MayoAreMuck wrote: »

Ya gotta love the myth around MDMA not being able to kick a ball or solo it. His shooting is abysmal but his kick passing is good as his his breaking the tackle. He is the same lad that schooled Barry Moran in a club AI. To say Fenton has basic skills says it all about my acronym namesake😂😂😂

They are not "natural footballers."

That is a a genetic thing. Same as Clare, Offaly, Dublin and others are not "natural hurlers."


If they had any respect, they would give up. in fact we could just have Mick O'Connell and Christy Ring videos instead of the championship

tritium

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

100% serious. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying he isn't a good player at all, he is a serious addition to the team. But if you consider, he was never involved underage with the county. He wouldn't be like a real classy footballer for example, like a David Moran type. You wouldn't have him on the 45s and he isn't going to open a defence with a 30 metre kickpass. If you recall his goal chances against mayo, he actually scuffed them wide every time (lucky for him, straight to Bernard Brogan!) - nothing wrong with that either, it isn't what he is there for, but it just illustrates the point that he isn't a massively skilful player, but is a hugely effective player.


He has more physical attributes, athleticism, mobility and the ones I listed earlier. That, combined with Cluxton's kicking makes them a hugely effective combination, particularly when he is competing with guys who generally are slower and less mobile than him. That is why when Barry - no superstar footballer, but very mobile, strong and direct, was put onto him, to essentially counter his advantage in the middle third. It is similar to sticking a target man in at FF on a small FB. It made donaghy look like a super player, when in truth his skillset would be limited enough, by his own admission. An awful lot of football is about isolating mismatches and fenton has been a great weapon on this front.

It isn't a criticism at all, just a critique of what makes him so effective in the modern game. A similar argument could be made for McAuley, and you have to credit Dublin for realising the requirement for a certain type of player, although it is easier when you have so many to call on...

Youre last line once again gives you away. I think ill defer to the link i posted on this one, where far more in the know people give a view as to how skillful fenton actually is

charlie14

tritium wrote: »

Youre last line once again gives you away. I think ill defer to the link i posted on this one, where far more in the know people give a view as to how skillful fenton actually is

All well and good, but does it make any difference.

The job he does for Dublin left him a kick off a cat away from player of the year.

MayoAreMagic

tritium wrote: »

Youre last line once again gives you away. I think ill defer to the link i posted on this one, where far more in the know people give a view as to how skillful fenton actually is

This tactic of trying to paint the poster as biased rather than just argue the case is painfully predictable. It is the easy out - pick a line, spin it to suit yourself and thereby remove the need to actually argue the case. It's pretty sad. You shouldn't take the thing so personally that you feel the need to respond like this. Players have their strengths and weaknesses, not being able to admit this is just childish. Seamus O'Shea is in a similar mould in that he is not a hugely skilful player but rather more of an athlete, Donal Vaughan even more so - if you had pointed that out I wouldn't start the 'you just have an axe to grind' spiel. Mainly because it is just the truth.

Like what alternative are you actually offering here? That fenton is the best at everything? That is pure fanboy stuff. Id be of the opinion that he is a fine player and has a lot in his game, but also that cluxton's kickouts give him a platform to do well from that his opponents probably don't have the luxury of. I don't think there is anything unfair in that assessment. It also would explain why Kerry tried to neutralise him for said kickouts... But don't let reason and logic get in your way

MayoAreMagic

Bonniedog wrote: »

They are not "natural footballers."

That is a a genetic thing. Same as Clare, Offaly, Dublin and others are not "natural hurlers."


If they had any respect, they would give up. in fact we could just have Mick O'Connell and Christy Ring videos instead of the championship

Nobody mentioned natural footballers, what was referenced was skillset. For example, David Moran would have a larger skillset than any other midfielder in the game.

Or should it be 'skillset'?

Utopia Parkway

MayoAreMuck wrote: »

Ya gotta love the myth around MDMA not being able to kick a ball or solo it‚

I don't think his kick passing is good at all to be honest. I'd say he knows this himself too because he rarely ever kicks the ball. Nothing wrong with it as he knows his strengths and kicking the ball isn't one of them.

Audioslaven

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Yeah, was thinking that as I was writing it. I guess that it is hard for U21's to step up to a team like Dublin / Kerry / Mayo. It probably is a reflection on just how good those teams are.

I have heard from my Mayo friends that Conor Loftus is a player they think hasnt really pushed on like they hoped and his club form is fairly average. Thought he was a good player that would be pushing for a senior spot by now.

He has the makings to be an excellent footballer. He just needs a bit more time and hopefully this year in the panel will bring him on.

MayoAreMagic

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

I don't think his kick passing is good at all to be honest. I'd say he knows this himself too because he rarely ever kicks the ball. Nothing wrong with it as he knows his strengths and kicking the ball isn't one of them.

Absolutely - a player who knows his weaknesses is a really good asset to a team. Seamus O'Shea should take a leaf out of his book, he is forever kicking ball away.

Re conor loftus, well that is the issue in the top teams, it is very hard for forwards to make a breakthrough in the top teams these days, because everyone is so defensive and the standards are so high. Cormac Costello is in the same boat. Any young guy that isn't physically imposing is going to struggle early on. Truth be told, these lads could do with the team going down to division 2 for a year to find their feet with a run of games in less of a pressure cooker. You can see lads coming through for galway and Kildare, now brimming with confidence for the championship.

Always_Running

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

100% serious. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying he isn't a good player at all, he is a serious addition to the team. But if you consider, he was never involved underage with the county. He wouldn't be like a real classy footballer for example, like a David Moran type.

Fenton was the stand out midfielder in the 2014 U-21 championship. Moran is your old style traditional midfielder a breed of midfielder that is becoming less and less in today's modern football.

yop

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

100% serious. Dont get me wrong, Im not saying he isn't a good player at all, he is a serious addition to the team. But if you consider, he was never involved underage with the county. He wouldn't be like a real classy footballer for example, like a David Moran type. You wouldn't have him on the 45s and he isn't going to open a defence with a 30 metre kickpass. If you recall his goal chances against mayo, he actually scuffed them wide every time (lucky for him, straight to Bernard Brogan!) - nothing wrong with that either, it isn't what he is there for, but it just illustrates the point that he isn't a massively skilful player, but is a hugely effective player.


He has more physical attributes, athleticism, mobility and the ones I listed earlier. That, combined with Cluxton's kicking makes them a hugely effective combination, particularly when he is competing with guys who generally are slower and less mobile than him. That is why when Barry - no superstar footballer, but very mobile, strong and direct, was put onto him, to essentially counter his advantage in the middle third. It is similar to sticking a target man in at FF on a small FB. It made donaghy look like a super player, when in truth his skillset would be limited enough, by his own admission. An awful lot of football is about isolating mismatches and fenton has been a great weapon on this front.

It isn't a criticism at all, just a critique of what makes him so effective in the modern game. A similar argument could be made for McAuley, and you have to credit Dublin for realising the requirement for a certain type of player, although it is easier when you have so many to call on...

So by definition a player who doesnt play underage won't be as good as those who have played at all grades on the way up? Is that correct?

MayoAreMagic

Always_Running wrote: »

Fenton was the stand out midfielder in the 2014 U-21 championship. Moran is your old style traditional midfielder a breed of midfielder that is becoming less and less in today's modern football.

His style of midfielder didn't look to be on the way out last Sunday...

But I do understand what you are saying.

The reality of it is a lot of it comes down to who is winning the middle third, and Kerry managed to impose themselves on the middle third in the league final. They got to grips with SC's kickouts and made him kick it out, which is right up Moran's street. Of course he will look the part when the game is being played on his terms and the Kerry tactics made this so. The very same was happening for Dublin the past few years, with fenton the main beneficiary. Kerry are the first team to neutralise this and it paid dividends.

yop

MayoAreMuck wrote: »

No problem. Just hit the ignore button like a good man.

Nah, more interesting to see what level of idiocy you post and figure out what troll you were before you re-reg;d

MayoAreMagic

yop wrote: »

So by definition a player who doesnt play underage won't be as good as those who have played at all grades on the way up? Is that correct?

Of course not and that definition was never claimed. But making development squads is a good indicator of where a guy's skillset would be at. I mean for the level of skill that is being suggested here in this particular example, it is a reasonable expectation that the guy would feature in a development squad at some stage.

The obvious exception would be a guy who is a bit small and maybe had the skill but not the size and was passed over because of it, but Im pretty sure 6'4 fenton doesn't fit into that category.

I don't see the big deal here to be honest, it's not like he is jinking dummies and kicking sidelines over the bar, you would swear he was Maurice fitz or the gooch the way some people are talking. Im just making the observation that he just isn't a hugely skilful player is all, there are plenty more like him. Is nobody allowed critique a guy's abilities unless they are offering unconditional praise?

yop

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Of course not and that definition was never claimed. But making development squads is a good indicator of where a guy's skillset would be at. I mean for the level of skill that is being suggested here in this particular example, it is a reasonable expectation that the guy would feature in a development squad at some stage.

The obvious exception would be a guy who is a bit small and maybe had the skill but not the size and was passed over because of it, but Im pretty sure 6'4 fenton doesn't fit into that category.

I don't see the big deal here to be honest, it's not like he is jinking dummies and kicking sidelines over the bar, you would swear he was Maurice fitz or the gooch the way some people are talking. Im just making the observation that he just isn't a hugely skilful player is all, there are plenty more like him. Is nobody allowed critique a guy's abilities unless they are offering unconditional praise?

Absolutely your well within right to critique a player, but to be fair there are many many examples of top class players who have never featured at minor and/or U21 and have gone on to be AI winners and/or All Starts etc.

Fenton is a top top player, any team would have him. He has a brain which is rare enough. I do think your been harsh on him, but everyone likes their own farts and opinions!

MayoAreMagic

yop wrote: »

Absolutely your well within right to critique a player, but to be fair there are many many examples of top class players who have never featured at minor and/or U21 and have gone on to be AI winners and/or All Starts etc.

Fenton is a top top player, any team would have him. He has a brain which is rare enough. I do think your been harsh on him, but everyone likes their own farts and opinions!

I never said he wasn't a top midfielder though, I pointed out that he wasn't what you would class as a very skilful player. Like I would consider Kevin Walsh to be a high class midfielder in his day, but he was never a hugely skilful footballer. There is a distinction there on skill that you appear to be ignoring on purpose.

seligehgit

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Absolutely - a player who knows his weaknesses is a really good asset to a team. Seamus O'Shea should take a leaf out of his book, he is forever kicking ball away.

Re conor loftus, well that is the issue in the top teams, it is very hard for forwards to make a breakthrough in the top teams these days, because everyone is so defensive and the standards are so high. Cormac Costello is in the same boat. Any young guy that isn't physically imposing is going to struggle early on. Truth be told, these lads could do with the team going down to division 2 for a year to find their feet with a run of games in less of a pressure cooker. You can see lads coming through for galway and Kildare, now brimming with confidence for the championship.

Fair point,Seamie does go through periods of kicking the ball away but in general I'd consider him a good kickpasser.He has an ​absolutely massive engine.Can't see outside of a O Shea/Parsons midfield partnership this summer.

Conor Loftus is only a young lad and I've no doubt has the skillset and time on his side to become a top forward.He's been unlucky with injuries and will continue to develop physically as a player.

yop

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I never said he wasn't a top midfielder though, I pointed out that he wasn't what you would class as a very skilful player. Like I would consider Kevin Walsh to be a high class midfielder in his day, but he was never a hugely skilful footballer. There is a distinction there on skill that you appear to be ignoring on purpose.

Check my posts. Did I mention skill.....

naughto

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I never said he wasn't a top midfielder though, I pointed out that he wasn't what you would class as a very skilful player. Like I would consider Kevin Walsh to be a high class midfielder in his day, but he was never a hugely skilful footballer. There is a distinction there on skill that you appear to be ignoring on purpose.

Well you should have cos he's far from it,good panel player is all I'd give him

Fr Tod Umptious

Shurimgreat wrote: »

I think the chance of an AI has passed for this Mayo team, being realistic.

Both Dublin and Kerry have phenomenal younger players coming through and Donegal and Tyrone also have some good forwards coming through.

Mayo have added some useful defenders in Harrison and Durcan in recent years but again not much in the line of new forwards who can score freely.

I though the same back in 2013 after they lost a second final in a row.

I thought the same in 2014 when they only beat Roscommon by a point.

I thought the same in 2015 when they had the player revolt.

I thought the same in 2016 when they lost to Galway and were 6 down v Fermanagh


Yet they came back, and came back, and came back.

Statistically last year was the closest they got.

So I'm not willing to write off 2017 until it's over.

Dublin as we have seen are not unbearable.

Regardless of last Sunday Kerry are still in transition and have a lot of questions.

I always refer to Cork between 2005 and 2010, lost 5 years in a row at SF or Final stage to Kerry, but then managed to scrape past Down when they got the chance to win it all.

And have sucked since.

That's the kind of luck we need.

homewardbound11

I have to disagree there .

Dublin were getting pretty much unbearable

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I though the same back in 2013 after they lost a second final in a row.

I thought the same in 2014 when they only beat Roscommon by a point.

I thought the same in 2015 when they had the player revolt.

I thought the same in 2016 when they lost to Galway and were 6 down v Fermanagh


Yet they came back, and came back, and came back.

Statistically last year was the closest they got.

So I'm not willing to write off 2017 until it's over.

Dublin as we have seen are not unbearable.

Regardless of last Sunday Kerry are still in transition and have a lot of questions.

I always refer to Cork between 2005 and 2010, lost 5 years in a row at SF or Final stage to Kerry, but then managed to scrape past Down when they got the chance to win it all.

And have sucked since.

That's the kind of luck we need.

Oldtree

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Seamus O'Shea is in a similar mould in that he is not a hugely skilful player but rather more of an athlete, Donal Vaughan even more so

I think you are being too demanding, not everyone can be a Colm Cooper. Imo to be named on a senior county team, esp mayo, you need to be very athletic, very skilled and be able to read a game in play and react appropriately.. I've watched both the above players, both on and off the ball, for some time, and admire their play grately.

And yes I know I'm biased as I like Donal and his tenacious style

Loafing Oaf

homewardbound11 wrote: »

I have to disagree there .

Dublin were getting pretty much unbearable

I remember a man in despair standing beside after the replay last year saying "Why are those effers winning another all-Ireland. They don't deserve it."

Oldtree

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I remember a man in despair standing beside after the replay last year saying "Why are those effers winning another all-Ireland. They don't deserve it."

Anyone who beats Dublin in an AI final wont just deserve it, they will have earned it.

Mayo by 3 (far too early?)

ProudDUB

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

I remember a man in despair standing beside after the replay last year saying "Why are those effers winning another all-Ireland. They don't deserve it."

As a very wise man once said.....

Loafing Oaf

ProudDUB wrote: »

As a very wise man once said.....

I think the poor man needed some deeper philosophical consolation than that. He was having a full-blown existential crisis in the Cusack Stand, asking "why is God doing this to us? I'm not going to mass any more..."

Fr Tod Umptious

homewardbound11 wrote: »

I have to disagree there .

Dublin were getting pretty much unbearable

Dublin are the team to beat, and are rightly favourites, but between August 2016 and now hey have shown to be far more vulnerable than they showed in the previous year or more.

MayoAreMagic

yop wrote: »

Check my posts. Did I mention skill.....

That is my point...
I was specific on skill, and you responded to my point by saying it was too harsh and that the guy was a 'top top player', which any logical-minded person can see, has nothing to do with the initial point on skill levels...