HEAVEN

19warrior81

I would love to hear what peoples interpretation of heaven are,and would you still enter heaven knowing a loved one is not their or in hell maybe

hinault

Heaven is described as being the existence in which the very depths of our being, our soul, are satisfied far beyond any human comprehension and human experience.

The Beatific Vision is said to the source of that peace.

19warrior81

I hope i make it their

hinault

19warrior81 wrote: »

I hope i make it their

I hope that you do so as well.:)

19warrior81

i often think,would god just not say,yerra yer all forgiven and know one has to go to hell

homer911

19warrior81 wrote: »

i often think,would god just not say,yerra yer all forgiven and know one has to go to hell

Nobody has to go to Hell, forgiveness is ours to accept or reject as God has already offered it to us

19warrior81

i believe in god and i am convinced that he\she exists,however my biggest fear is that i wont live up to his standards and i will never know untill i go.i guess what i am saying is i need reassurance that im on the right path,i have felt this way since childhood and its torture.

homer911

19warrior81 wrote: »

i believe in god and i am convinced that he\she exists,however my biggest fear is that i wont live up to his standards and i will never know untill i go.i guess what i am saying is i need reassurance that im on the right path,i have felt this way since childhood and its torture.

The beauty of it is that God knows we can never live up to his standards, that's where grace comes in..

j80ezgvc3p92xu

I think simply being in God's presence is the essence of Heaven. Some saints, like St Faustina Kowalska, saw Heaven in a vision.

i need reassurance that im on the right path,i have felt this way since childhood and its torture.

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.”

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

God first, other people second, everything else (including yourself) after that. To mention another ongoing thread, don't neglect confession too

19warrior81

another question i would love to hear opinions on is this.I believe that god exists completely but i do not believe in organised religion.i am catholic by birth and it gave me a foundation of faith that i am gratefull for and i do believe in alot of its teachings but theirs is an awfull lot that i do not believe in.so basically i am just going to place my trust in god and follow him.is this right or wrong....................

homer911

Emanuel Slimy Whimsy wrote: »

God first, other people second, everything else (including yourself) after that.

J - Jesus first
O - Others Second
Y - Yourself last

homer911

19warrior81 wrote: »

another question i would love to hear opinions on is this.I believe that god exists completely but i do not believe in organised religion.i am catholic by birth and it gave me a foundation of faith that i am gratefull for and i do believe in alot of its teachings but theirs is an awfull lot that i do not believe in.so basically i am just going to place my trust in god and follow him.is this right or wrong....................

I suppose that depends on what you mean by "organised religion". The Bible definitely encourages Christians to meet together regularly - to worship God, share the Lord's Supper, pray, encourage one another and to teach the Word of God. If you don't do any of these things you are certainly missing out in your Christian life and may be exposing yourself to temptation and "back-sliding". Put on the "full armour of God"! Meeting as Christians is both for your benefit and for those that you encourage.

There are plenty of informal Christian groups or independent churches that would do this

19warrior81

i have looked into born again christianity and was interested at first but what turned me off was that they took the bible too litarally and they seem to be unable to think for themselves only refering to the bible when hard questions were asked.i am sorry if i offend any born again christians i do not mean to insult it is merely my opinion.so once again i just went back to god himself for answers.Question everything

homer911

Bit of a contradition in that statement

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Timothy+3%3A16-17&version=ESV

hinault

19warrior81 wrote: »

another question i would love to hear opinions on is this.I believe that god exists completely but i do not believe in organised religion.i am catholic by birth and it gave me a foundation of faith that i am gratefull for and i do believe in alot of its teachings but theirs is an awfull lot that i do not believe in.so basically i am just going to place my trust in god and follow him.is this right or wrong....................

It's up to everyone to make their own. I'm Catholic. I was raised Catholic.
I'm fortunate to have invested time reading and reading as much as I possibly can about Catholic teaching, Catholic history.

I don't know what parts of Catholicism you do not accept. I'd suggest that if you can do so try to persevere in your Catholic belief.

Good luck to you.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

Get yourself a copy of the YouCat. Its basically a book full of common questions about the Catholic faith followed by reasoned explainations, with beautiful and uplifting quotes in the margins. Could not recommend it highly enaugh.

UB Dude

Heaven is a word used to express several ideas: 1, the most common notion is that of 'life after death' - an existence of continual bliss due to contemplating the glory of God: 2, it is also used in reference to ideal culture, as in that occasion when we finally achieve 'heaven on earth': 3, it also refers to the 'worlds of glory on high' - the higher worlds beyond our own where the journey of life continues. The kingdom, as I understand it, is first and foremost an awareness of and faith in the truth of the Fatherhood of God, it is the realisation and consequent joyful acceptance of your sonship in this ever living, ever loving, all wise creator. It is the acceptance of this truth that banishes all fear. Hell is a concept belonging to a different age. The book of Revelation talks of the 'Second Death' from which there is no return, which means our choices (when it comes to existence) are 2: everlasting life or everlasting extinction. The implication is that everyone gets a fair and fighting chance at achieving life everlasting and those that fail or abandon the endeavour become as though 'they have not been'. The time of 'heaven on earth' refers to the dawn of the age of universal brotherhood, when we shall 'no more learn to make war', when we 'beat our swords into ploughshares' - when we finally lose our appetite for war and commit ourselves to global peace and learn to live in harmony as the Father intended. Some insight into the activities associated with the 'worlds on high' can be gleaned from various sources but such information is subject to Faith and not too reliable given that 'eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man the things the Father has prepared for those that love him and seek to do his will.'

silverharp

where you get to wonder why your favourite pet made it but not your parents or kids , that wont get under your skin at all over eternity :pac:

hinault

UB Dude wrote: »

Heaven is a word used to express several ideas: 1, the most common notion is that of 'life after death' - an existence of continual bliss due to contemplating the glory of God: 2, it is also used in reference to ideal culture, as in that occasion when we finally achieve 'heaven on earth': 3, it also refers to the 'worlds of glory on high' - the higher worlds beyond our own where the journey of life continues. The kingdom, as I understand it, is first and foremost an awareness of and faith in the truth of the Fatherhood of God, it is the realisation and consequent joyful acceptance of your sonship in this ever living, ever loving, all wise creator. It is the acceptance of this truth that banishes all fear. Hell is a concept belonging to a different age. The book of Revelation talks of the 'Second Death' from which there is no return, which means our choices (when it comes to existence) are 2: everlasting life or everlasting extinction. The implication is that everyone gets a fair and fighting chance at achieving life everlasting and those that fail or abandon the endeavour become as though 'they have not been'. The time of 'heaven on earth' refers to the dawn of the age of universal brotherhood, when we shall 'no more learn to make war', when we 'beat our swords into ploughshares' - when we finally lose our appetite for war and commit ourselves to global peace and learn to live in harmony as the Father intended. Some insight into the activities associated with the 'worlds on high' can be gleaned from various sources but such information is subject to Faith and not too reliable given that 'eye has not seen, ear has not heard, nor has it entered into the heart of man the things the Father has prepared for those that love him and seek to do his will.'

Is Satan dead therefore?

UB Dude

If he ain't already, it's certainly on the cards for him and all the 'Heavenly hosts of wickedness' that joined in the rebellion when there was 'war in Heaven'. The wheels of divine justice may turn slowly but they are unerring and nothing escapes it.

indy_man

19warrior81 wrote: »

another question i would love to hear opinions on is this.I believe that god exists completely but i do not believe in organised religion.i am catholic by birth and it gave me a foundation of faith that i am gratefull for and i do believe in alot of its teachings but theirs is an awfull lot that i do not believe in.so basically i am just going to place my trust in god and follow him.is this right or wrong....................

Quite a lot of the new testament relates to the various churches which would mean organized religion. I myself am Catholic but had tried a number of other protestant and born again religions in the past but only really feel a closeness to Christ now and a much more mystical slant on religion.

About Heaven, a perfect union with God.

UB Dude

Organised religion is an inevitability of the fact that we are social beings. Given that every single one of us are flawed it is likewise inevitable that these groups are flawed. Following the leading of the spirit of truth as it inspires you to live is a challenge that requires courage and faith. You don't need the approval of any group in order to perform the Father's will. I have been unable to find a church that reflects my values and ideals, this 'gap in the market' has got me thinking about creating a support network for others like me. I've tried the Pentecostal, Born Again's, Presbyterian, etc. But I feel that I need to share their beliefs if I wish to enjoy fellowship at their table and while I accept that such teachings work for them - I'd rather not feel the hypocrite. I don't have, according to one group or another, the 'right beliefs' but entry into the kingdom is dependent upon faith not intellectual ascent to certain beliefs. I was raised a Catholic and follow the Master's example of not leaving the faith I was born into but endeavour to 're-vitalise' the spiritual life of truth seekers.

uck51js9zml2yt

When people wonder will they get to heaven it really makes me wonder what kind of Salvation experience they've had.

I've no doubt and haven't had for more than 30 years.

antiskeptic

19warrior81 wrote: »

I would love to hear what peoples interpretation of heaven are,and would you still enter heaven knowing a loved one is not their or in hell maybe

Heaven is a place "wherein dwelt only righteousness". Which means no sin (a.k.a. selfishness, anger, pride, conceit, lies, etc, etc, etc). The idea isn't that we go to heaven, but that God reconstitutes the Earth to be a place we occupy. So I suspect it will be like here but without all that makes here a misery.

Because we are so loaded down with sinfulness I suspect our first exposure to this eternal environment will feel as if a load is being taken off our back.

A number of years ago I was out on a hike when one of the youngsters got worn out. I carried him on my shoulders. Initially I was consciously aware of his weight but after a while, I forgot about him and the load just became something that was part of me. When I unloaded him at the end of the trip I felt as though I was as light as a feater. Floating on air.

Sin/stress/anxiousness/fear are load we aren't even aware we are carrying to the degree we carry them. They will disappear "in heaven".

It's worth noting, as others have noted, that we don't have to attain this. God gives this sinless state, in the new Earth, to us by grace.

mattP

Is heaven only for Christians? What about Atheists who are good people? Or someone who follows a different religion? What about pets will they be allowed in?
Just some things ive been wondering :c I myself was raised as a Catholic, but I don't take anything from going to mass, nothing whatsoever. I much prefer chatting away to God now and again on my own throughout the day. So not sure if I still qualify as a Catholic, I would just call myself a Christian :c

uck51js9zml2yt

mattP wrote: »

Is heaven only for Christians? What about Atheists who are good people? Or someone who follows a different religion? What about pets will they be allowed in?
Just some things ive been wondering :c I myself was raised as a Catholic, but I don't take anything from going to mass, nothing whatsoever. I much prefer chatting away to God now and again on my own throughout the day. So not sure if I still qualify as a Catholic, I would just call myself a Christian :c

Heaven is for those who have known the salvation of Jesus Christ in this life. It's not a Catholic thing. Its a God thing. I knew 30 years ago I was suddenly going to heaven when I died and knowing that before that point I wasn't going.
I knew what it was to have my sin forgiven, a relationship with God that continues to grow and after heart surgery last week I know my life has changed further.

pauldla

Hope all went well with the heart surgery and wishing you a full and speedy recovery.

antiskeptic

mattP wrote: »

Is heaven only for Christians? What about Atheists who are good people? Or someone who follows a different religion? What about pets will they be allowed in?
Just some things ive been wondering :c I myself was raised as a Catholic, but I don't take anything from going to mass, nothing whatsoever. I much prefer chatting away to God now and again on my own throughout the day. So not sure if I still qualify as a Catholic, I would just call myself a Christian :c

The way I view it is as a Venn diagram. There are different sets of people: Christian (who call themselves, perhaps, born again), Christians (who strongly identify with this or that denomination), Christians by virtue of birth (i.e. a priest pouring water over their head) but without any particular allegiance to their religion of birth. Then there are people of other faiths, each faith being a set. Then people of no religion, a set too.

The question of all of these people (as individuals not because of the set they occupy) is whether or not they fulfill God's criteria for "admittance to heaven" (see my post a couple above about where it is folk who "go to heaven" will actually reside.

Those who do fulfill his criteria will, in my view, come from all of the sets and so the Venn diagram will see all sets overlap to a degree (depending on how many from each set fulfill God's criteria for entrance to heaven). Not everyone from every set will go to heaven, just those who fulfill the criteria.

Abraham, for example, wasn't a Christian and he's "going to heaven.

I don't think it matters that you don't get anything from mass. I don't even think it matters whether you think you're going to heaven or not. I dont' think it matters if you've every heard of Jesus Christ hung on a cross. Abraham didn't.

homer911

antiskeptic wrote: »

I dont' think it matters if you've every heard of Jesus Christ hung on a cross. Abraham didn't.

Seriously? Of course it matters! We've discussed this before. If it didnt matter, then Christians would not have been called to go and make disciples of every nation. If it didnt matter then Christians would be doing everyone a favour by not sharing the Good News with them, and thereby assuring them of salvation by a God they have never heard of!

antiskeptic

homer911 wrote: »

Seriously? Of course it matters!

It didn't matter to Abraham. Or Adam and Eve (in the event they were saved subsequent to their fall). Are you suggesting a different method of salvation for different people at different times? That somehow salvation was closed to all of those prior to the time when the post-Jesus Christian message propagated itself? This doesn't tally with the Old Testament.

There is, I gather, only one way of salvation. Presumably this applies before, during and after the period Christ walked the earth

We've discussed this before. If it didnt matter, then Christians would not have been called to go and make disciples of every nation.

A disciple is one who follows Jesus' way (definition: A disciple is a follower and student of a mentor, teacher, or other figure). Following his way needn't have anything to do with the point of actual salvation. It didn't have anything to do with mine. Or yours. Discipleship is subsequent to, not a precursor of, your salvation. I mean, why would you follow Jesus before you were saved? Are you not dead to God, blind? Blind people can't see to follow.

It's the drumbeat of scripture that some folk had their eyes opened to who Jesus was, such as to believe what he said. And that others didn't. It was them first believing that produced (and undergirds the logic for) following.

Opening of eyes is what occurs at salvation. Of course, the experience of eyes opened will produce different reactions depending on what is there in front of those eyes once opened. To those eyes opened and before whom information on Jesus is given, the eyes will immediately respond in recognising what before them is true. For those eyes opened but before whom there is no/insufficient information, the understanding can't be anything but hazy, partial, less certain.

If it didn't matter then Christians would be doing everyone a favour by not sharing the Good News with them, and thereby assuring them of salvation by a God they have never heard of!

I'm not saying that folk will become saved by not hearing. The mechanism of salvation just doesn't require that someone be told the message. I think there's a significant difference (to the individual) to be aware of their salvation in a way that provides concrete information (i.e. being told specific information that they have been equipped, through eye opening, to see) and not be aware of it (i.e. not be exposed to the message and so reside in hazy, partial, less certain space)

homer911

Have you heard of the New Covenant?

Hebrews 8: 7-13, Jeremiah 31:31-34

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant#Christian_view

antiskeptic

homer911 wrote: »

Have you heard of the New Covenant?

Hebrews 8: 7-13, Jeremiah 31:31-34

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Covenant#Christian_view

So how were people saved in the old testament? Before they could have heard of Christ and the gospel. Under the Old Convenant?

Why does Paul, in what is the exposition of the way of salvation, start out by pointing to Abraham's believing God (not believing in Jesus, not believing in Gods existence, but believing what God said in the matter of his obtaining an heir) as cornerstone in his construction of the argument of salvation by faith (and not the Law/Old Convenant) - if there was any different way of salvation than the same way that Abraham was saved?

JeffKenna

19warrior81 wrote: »

I would love to hear what peoples interpretation of heaven are,and would you still enter heaven knowing a loved one is not their or in hell maybe

I've never really thought too much into what heaven actually is, seems a bit pointless when we won't know until the time comes. If a loved one wasn't there then I would point blank refuse to enter. I guess I've inadvertently answered your first question, I would imagine heaven being the actual reunification with loved ones.

santing

antiskeptic wrote: »

So how were people saved in the old testament? Before they could have heard of Christ and the gospel. Under the Old Convenant?

Why does Paul, in what is the exposition of the way of salvation, start out by pointing to Abraham's believing God (not believing in Jesus, not believing in Gods existence, but believing what God said in the matter of his obtaining an heir) as cornerstone in his construction of the argument of salvation by faith (and not the Law/Old Convenant) - if there was any different way of salvation than the same way that Abraham was saved?

Great question! There never was and never will be any other way of salvation but by faith in the God who saves. For instance of Moses we read (long before the birth of Christ)

By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter, choosing rather to endure ill- treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward. (Hebrews 11)

And famous is of course the explanation of Job, contemporary with Abraham:

"As for me, I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last He will take His stand on the earth.
"Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
Whom I myself shall behold,
and whom my eyes will see and not another.
My heart faints within me!

antiskeptic

santing wrote: »

Great question! There never was and never will be any other way of salvation but by faith in the God who saves. For instance of Moses we read (long before the birth of Christ)

Homer seems to think otherwise. What that way might be is something he may have a view on.

hinault

homer911 wrote: »

Seriously? Of course it matters! We've discussed this before. If it didnt matter, then Christians would not have been called to go and make disciples of every nation. If it didnt matter then Christians would be doing everyone a favour by not sharing the Good News with them, and thereby assuring them of salvation by a God they have never heard of!

The Gospels tell of the Apostles witnessing Jesus speaking with Elijah and Moses.
The presumption is that both Elijah and Moses are in Heaven.

It's a complex issue ie. the eternal fate of those who lived prior to Jesus ministry.

But rather than dwelling on who may or who may be in Heaven, each of us should instead concentrate on our own spiritual lives rather than speculating about the eternal fate of others.

What is clear to each of us here and now today, is the teaching of Jesus Christ as it applies to our lives.

antiskeptic

hinault wrote: »

The Gospels tell of the Apostles witnessing Jesus speaking with Elijah and Moses.
The presumption is that both Elijah and Moses are in Heaven.

It's a complex issue ie. the eternal fate of those who lived prior to Jesus ministry.

Is it that complex? Or any more complex than how men are saved today (given the multiple views on what salvation by grace (and, in some folks view works)) constitutes?

We are given indications that the mechanism of salvation is and always has been the same. If by faith now, then by faith then (with the argument being what saving faith is exactly) and if works then works now and then. If by both (somehow) then both. I don't see any other components which would be argued over.

It has a certain ring to it: that all men considered equal before God and there being nothing new under the sun means the mechanism of salvation will essentially be the same in all cases.

But rather than dwelling on who may or who may be in Heaven, each of us should instead concentrate on our own spiritual lives rather than speculating about the eternal fate of others.

It becomes important when considering how to deal with the issue of how the Christian message is to be communicated. Apologetics is frequently used as a means of convincing others to believe. But if a person can't be argued into the Kingdom then what point in that activity?

If we can accurately identify the mechanism of salvation then our outreach can, perhaps, be made fit for purpose.

What is clear to each of us here and now today, is the teaching of Jesus Christ as it applies to our lives.

It's of little use to folk today who've either never heard of Jesus or for whom his message is but one of a billion competing ones.

sbsquarepants

homer911 wrote: »

The beauty of it is that God knows we can never live up to his standards, that's where grace comes in..

That's the beauty?

Here's a test I know you can only fail? I could have made you so that you were better able to pass, I could have left you as you are but made the test a little bit easier, but I didn't, I chose to deliberately set the standard so high that you could never achieve it.

That's the beauty?

homer911

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's the beauty?

Here's a test I know you can only fail? I could have made you so that you were better able to pass, I could have left you as you are but made the test a little bit easier, but I didn't, I chose to deliberately set the standard so high that you could never achieve it.

That's the beauty?

Absolutely, otherwise it would be salvation through works, or we would spend our lives being unsure of our salvation.

antiskeptic

sbsquarepants wrote: »

That's the beauty?

Here's a test I know you can only fail? I could have made you so that you were better able to pass, I could have left you as you are but made the test a little bit easier, but I didn't, I chose to deliberately set the standard so high that you could never achieve it.

That's the beauty?

It's not choosing to set a standard high.

God is unable to tolerate sin. It's as impossible for him to do that as it is impossible for us to tolerate and oxygen free environment. His nature is clean, pure, spotless (a.k.a. holy) and cannot be around that which isn't holy.

His response to that which is filthy, impure, unholy is wrath. Again, it's his nature to respond that way. And insofar as our natures are in alignment which his (a.k.a. to the degree our morality hasn't been compromised by our own sinfulness and remains in alignment with his) it's our nature to hate that which is filthy, impure, unholy. For example, our alignment with him generally has us hate the actions of a paedophile, or the actions of a coward who let's other perish so as to save their skin. Its right to hate such things.

For us to be in his presence we need to be holy too. We cannot work our way to holiness: we have our past sin needing dealing with. And we can't no matter how hard we try, avoid future sin. Which means the only outcome for us is to face God's wrath. There is no testing being done as such.

God is also love. He loves us. He has a way in which his rightful wrath against that which is unholy can be deflected away from us, the object of his love. The way he achieves this is to deflect it onto Jesus.

We obtain access to this deflection by faith. Not by passing a test.

antiskeptic

homer911 wrote: »

Absolutely, otherwise it would be salvation through works, or we would spend our lives being unsure of our salvation.

Any response to how you think Abraham was saved? The mechanism by which, I mean?

uck51js9zml2yt

antiskeptic wrote: »

Any response to how you think Abraham was saved? The mechanism by which, I mean?

By Faith. Scripture is very clear on this.

antiskeptic

Crystal Proud Rationalist wrote: »

By Faith. Scripture is very clear on this.

Faith in what (bear in mind our subject, Abraham, who didn't believe in Jesus Christ in order to be saved by that kind of faith).

We're looking for what lies at the root of the mechanism by which a person is saved. If there is only one way of salvation then that one way must fit all people at all times. There must be a common element applicable to all.

What is that element? What is the irreducible essence of the way of salvation?

uck51js9zml2yt

As it says in Hebrews "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". And then goes on to speak of Moses, Abraham,Rahab who inherited the promise being able to see Him who is invisible.
When you come into Faith, then you will understand. If you don't have it then I can see why works are so important to support the lack of assurance.

homer911

antiskeptic wrote: »

Any response to how you think Abraham was saved? The mechanism by which, I mean?

Rather than requote another site:
http://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-salvation.html
Lots of biblical references supporting salvation through faith

tayto lover

Where will a good living person go after he dies if he doesn't believe in Heaven or Hell?
Does the Bible say anything about that?

uck51js9zml2yt

tayto lover wrote: »

Where will a good living person go after he dies if he doesn't believe in Heaven or Hell?
Does the Bible say anything about that?

I suggest you read it to find out:)

tayto lover

Crystal Proud Rationalist wrote: »

I suggest you read it to find out:)

Any idea what section I might find it please?

uck51js9zml2yt

tayto lover wrote: »

Any idea what section I might find it please?

Start with the gospels and keep going to revelation. A good start is John Gospel.
You don't have to read it in order but definitely start with the 4 Gospels

Severard

Many religions throughout history have had many different interpretations of what heaven entails yet they do appear to have one thing in common and that is that heaven will last for eternity. To allow someone to exist for eternity is to unload unimaginable cruelty on them.

What ever they want to do, they will do... and they will continue to exist.

What ever they are not good at, they can try to do and will get good at... and they will continue to exist.

What ever they can possibly imagine doing, they will do... and they will continue to exist.

1000 years a person would be able to cope with.

10000 years and then it would start to be come unbearable.

100000 years and a person would easily be insane.

And yet this doesn't even scratch the surface.

Also this video has good points on what heaven would be like as well according to the Bible, which doesn't look that great:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RT1DTpF_7w&ab_channel=Underlings

You said you would love to hear people's interpretation of what heaven are. Well there you go.

Lastly would you really want to co-exist with someone that is as evil as the God of the Bible? I know I wouldn't:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6twSN8ZS_VA&bpctr=1442519000&ab_channel=FFreeThinker

antiskeptic

Crystal Proud Rationalist wrote: »

As it says in Hebrews "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen". And then goes on to speak of Moses, Abraham,Rahab who inherited the promise being able to see Him who is invisible.

The faith that allows one to see the things of God isn't the same kind of faith talked of as saving faith (the faith with produces salvation in the first place). The former is inherited - better said, granted - but isn't the cause of it being granted (it can't cause itself). We're looking at what it is that produces salvation*

Abraham believed what God said (he had faith) and it was credited as righteousness (he was saved - at least, that's the model used by Paul in his argument on the subject). What, I have been asking Homer, is the essence of the faith people are saved by today (who might hear of Jesus) and people long ago (who won't have heard of Jesus)? It must be the same essence, whatever about the different clothes it's dressed up in.


-


To my mind, believing what God says seems to be the common denominator: whether it is the words of Jesus (God) or any other way God communicates to man. Suppose a man is convicted by his conscience (aside from hearing anything about Jesus). Isn't conscience from God: a way of God speaking to man and a way that man can believe what God is saying - without him even believing that God exists? An atheist has a conscience (God's general communication to all men on the matter of righteousness) and when he agrees with his conscience he is agreeing with, and believing to be true, what God is saying. Even when, in his rational mind, he doesn't believe in the existence of God.

Furthermore, he (the atheist) can also be convicted that there is something fundamentally, constitutionally wrong with himself (without believing in sin in the religious sense, for believing in sin in a religious sense necessarily means believing in God's existence). If he comes to that total conviction, is he not believing what God is saying (for it is God, through conscience, saying it). And if that belief leads him to desperation. What if he tries everything to find a solution (drugs, success, distractions, other religions, spirituality), a release from that turmoil - but fails. He might reach the point of surrender where he recognizes his great need but recognizes too, his inability to rectify himself. He might commit suicide to escape. He might too, be brought by the depth of conviction/turmoil to cry "Oh wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death?"

If such a one believes God to this extent, can that be the criteria for God saving? Certainly the New Testament abounds with such cases. Where we are told of their inner state, it's people in desperate straits who have their eyes opened to who Christ is. They are the ones who have been saved.

When you come into Faith, then you will understand.

I think I do understand. The common denominator lies in men, of whatever hue, believing what God says to them (not in the general sense of men having consciences but in the above, overwhelmingly convicted way). Whether they believe in God at the time or not needn't be the issue. The other common denominator appears to be desperation: the reaching of the end of own ability to obtain something vitally important to them - be it physical or psychological healing, an heir (in the case of Abraham), forgiveness, release from demons...

Atheists commonly accuse believers of using "God" as a crutch. How right they are - he only turns up to the broken who believe they are fatally broken. To ones at the end of their tether. Be it Abraham, the thief on the cross, me.


Suffice to say, I didn't believe in the existence of God when I believed God and was saved. I was granted faith to believe in God's existence - but that sort of faith was post-salvation. Not the cause of it.

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I was asking Homer how it was Abraham was saved since he seems to be implying that faith in Christ is necessary - something which Abraham didn't express in his being saved.



*Calvinists say that God grants saving faith without any contribution/act/influence/reaction of man. Which raises the question "why does God grant it to this man and not that". I find their answer, "God can grant to whom he wants" (which of course he could) or "he is sovereign" unsatisfactory. It doesn't answer the question why he would grant to this man and not that.