Forgiving Sin.

kneemos

The whole forgiving sin scenario has struck me as odd.
Surely it's up to God and God only to forgive sins.Is it not presumptuous for man to forgive sin?

Peregrinus

Well, except there's this to take into account.

All forgiveness of sin is from God. But as Christians we acknowledge an incarnate God; a God who has entered into his creation and works through it. One aspect of this is that the forgiveness of sins is ministered to the world by the church, the body of Christ. Which is why,in all mainstream Christian denominations, absolution from sin is pronounced by the church, through ministers commission by the church to do so.

hinault

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a10.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c2a4.htm

sbsquarepants

Does the situation ever arise whereby someone goes to confession but the priest decides not to forgive them?

Peregrinus

Not often, I suspect, but yes, it can happen, at least in the Catholic church. (I don't know about the practice in other churches.) The pentitent needs to be "properly disposed". It's not enough that he has confessed his sins; he need to repent of them. So if his attitude and actions show that he hasn't repented, if he doesn't regret the behaviour he is confessing and has no desire to avoid it in the future, the priest won't pronounce absolution.

keano_afc

1 John 1:9 says: "If we confess our sins, he (being God) is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."

A penitent person approaching God with a contrite heart will be forgiven of their sins. There is no need to invoke another person.

hinault

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Does the situation ever arise whereby someone goes to confession but the priest decides not to forgive them?

I can't speak for anyone else here who attends confession because I'm not privy to what they and their confessor speak about within the confessional.

Before attending confession, a Catholic should undergo and examination of conscience. Essentially this is where one reflects on the sins that one has committed since their last confession and tries to recall having committed those sins and the circumstances which led to the sin being committed.

In my own confessions, I always make sure to say that I seek absolution for the venial sins that I committed and the mortal sins that I committed.

From my own direct experience, I have been often asked after confessing my sins to the priest whether or not I truly feel contrite for the sins that I committed.

For example, I confessed to not keeping holy the sabbath (Sunday). I did not attend Mass on Sunday and this violates the 3rd commandment, therefore this is a mortal sin.
The reason I could not attend Mass was because I was in a foreign country which is practically 100% Muslim and there was no church that I could attend on that Sunday.
So while there is a reasonable explanation for why I could not attend Mass on that Sunday, the fact is that I broke the 3rd commandment.

The priest accepted my explanation for my failure to attend Mass, but he put it to me that I must feel truly sorry for not having attended Mass.
I said that I did feel contrite because attending Mass is very important to me and on that Sunday for the entire day I felt very out of sorts for not having attended Mass.

sbsquarepants

hinault wrote: »

For example, I confessed to not keeping holy the sabbath (Sunday). I did not attend Mass on Sunday and this violates the 3rd commandment, therefore this is a mortal sin.
The reason I could not attend Mass was because I was in a foreign country which is practically 100% Muslim and there was no church that I could attend on that Sunday.
So while there is a reasonable explanation for why I could not attend Mass on that Sunday, the fact is that I broke the 3rd commandment.

You're being very hard on yourself there surely? Can you not "keep holy" without the physical act of going to a specific building?


For my part I haven't been to confession since I gave up religion as a child, 30 years or more ago, but I always took it as a kind of rubber stamp affair. I'm sorry father, fair enough 10 hail Marys and off with you so. I'm a little bit surprised to hear there's a bit more substance to it to be honest.

hinault

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You're being very hard on yourself there surely? Can you not "keep holy" without the physical act of going to a specific building?

Perhaps.
But for the Catholic attending Mass on Sunday is keeping holy the Sabbath.

sbsquarepants wrote: »

For my part I haven't been to confession since I gave up religion as a child, 30 years or more ago, but I always took it as a kind of rubber stamp affair. I'm sorry father, fair enough 10 hail Marys and off with you so. I'm a little bit surprised to hear there's a bit more substance to it to be honest.

Sincere and heartfelt contrition is, in my opinion, central to the sacrament of confession. Closely aligned to that centrality is the commitment to try to not sin any more following confession ("Go, and sin no more").
In order to make to have sincere contrition one must feel remorse for having sinned.
For having sinned against God and for having sinned against their fellow man.

Attending confession without feeling sincere and heartfelt contrition for the sins committed is, in my opinion, empty. Doing so also runs the very serious risk of, despite the priest saying that you're absolved, not receiving spiritual absolution.

Each of us knows in our heart if we feel sorry.
Reciting a list of "sins" and not feeling genuine remorse is not confession,

keano_afc

sbsquarepants wrote: »

You're being very hard on yourself there surely? Can you not "keep holy" without the physical act of going to a specific building?


For my part I haven't been to confession since I gave up religion as a child, 30 years or more ago, but I always took it as a kind of rubber stamp affair. I'm sorry father, fair enough 10 hail Marys and off with you so. I'm a little bit surprised to hear there's a bit more substance to it to be honest.

Yet at the same time, its quite lacking in substance. You are confessing your sins to another sinner who has no power to forgive them. Its a complete waste of time.

Scripture tells us in many places that God forgives confessed sin. Our only advocate is Jesus.

homer911

The symbolism of the temple curtain separating the Holy of Holies being torn in two upon the death of Jesus seems to be lost on so many people

j80ezgvc3p92xu

Again, boils down to the issue of authority -"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church(...)". Peter was the Vicar of Christ. The Popes have a continuity unbroken from Peter. Peter (and the Popes) derived their authority from Christ. Bishops derive their authority from the popes. Priests derive their authority from the bishops. The sins are forgiven on the ultimate authority of Christ as exercised by the priest.

The extreme example of the need for authority is exorcism. Any sober joe off the street cannot do it, will not succeed and can even get himself oppressed in the process.

Go to confession! Christ came to get the sinners, He knows we are prone to it. Do not be ashamed because there is a priest in the confessional too, I guarantee that there are truly very few things he has not heard before. If you are of contrite heart you will become absolved - clean slate with God. It is an amazing feeling. Please don't let your mind reason yourself out of going.

keano_afc

Cody Brave Microcomputer wrote: »

Again, boils down to the issue of authority -"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church(...)". Peter was the Vicar of Christ. The Popes have a continuity unbroken from Peter. Peter (and the Popes) derived their authority from Christ. Bishops derive their authority from the popes. Priests derive their authority from the bishops. The sins are forgiven on the ultimate authority of Christ as exercised by the priest.

The extreme example of the need for authority is exorcism. Any sober joe off the street cannot do it, will not succeed and can even get himself oppressed in the process.

Go to confession! Christ came to get the sinners, He knows we are prone to it. Do not be ashamed because there is a priest in the confessional too, I guarantee that there are truly very few things he has not heard before. If you are of contrite heart you will become absolved - clean slate with God. It is an amazing feeling. Please don't let your mind reason yourself out of going.

Again, it boils down to a verse being completely taken out of context....

hinault

Cody Brave Microcomputer wrote: »

Again, boils down to the issue of authority -"And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church(...)". Peter was the Vicar of Christ. The Popes have a continuity unbroken from Peter. Peter (and the Popes) derived their authority from Christ. Bishops derive their authority from the popes. Priests derive their authority from the bishops. The sins are forgiven on the ultimate authority of Christ as exercised by the priest.

The extreme example of the need for authority is exorcism. Any sober joe off the street cannot do it, will not succeed and can even get himself oppressed in the process.

Go to confession! Christ came to get the sinners, He knows we are prone to it. Do not be ashamed because there is a priest in the confessional too, I guarantee that there are truly very few things he has not heard before. If you are of contrite heart you will become absolved - clean slate with God. It is an amazing feeling. Please don't let your mind reason yourself out of going.

The point that you make about exorcism may be an extreme one but it re-enforces the power of authority and conferring of apostolic succession.

You've read cases I'm sure where "clergy" from protestant denominations having failed to "exorcise" those possessed - and endangering themselves -
have been reduced to begging the Catholic authorities to send them a priest to perform the exorcism correctly?

Even the demonic recognise that only the Catholic church possesses the authority and the means to overcome sin.

keano_afc

hinault wrote: »

The point that you make about exorcism may be an extreme one but it re-enforces the power of authority and conferring of apostolic succession.

You've read cases I'm sure where "clergy" from protestant denominations having failed to "exorcise" those possessed - and endangering themselves -
have been reduced to begging the Catholic authorities to send them a priest to perform the exorcism correctly?

Even the demonic recognise that only the Catholic church possesses the authority and the means to overcome sin.

I'm at a Christian conference at the moment with limited access to Wi-Fi, but suffice to say as soon I get home I'll be refuting this incredulous statement.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

hinault wrote: »

The point that you make about exorcism may be an extreme one but it re-enforces the power of authority and conferring of apostolic succession.

You've read cases I'm sure where "clergy" from protestant denominations having failed to "exorcise" those possessed - and endangering themselves -
have been reduced to begging the Catholic authorities to send them a priest to perform the exorcism correctly?

Even the demonic recognise that only the Catholic church possesses the authority and the means to overcome sin.

Yup. Malachy Martin speaks about this phenomenon at some lenght. Everyone knows that if its an exorcism youre after, you look for the Catholics.

sbsquarepants

I just had a flash back there!

Aren't there a set of doors in the Vatican where you only need to walk through to be forgiven (kind of like the self service tills in Tesco, only holier:D) They only open them once in a blue moon, but once they do it's clean slates all round. Is that a thing or am I tripping?

Peregrinus

There's a set of doors in St Peter's that they only open during a Holy Year or Jubilee Year, which is normally once every 25 years. The Openiong of the doors is symbolic - Jubilee years celebrate forgiveness and liberation; the opening of the doors is an invitation.

So, yes, there are doors that get opened rarely, and they do symbolise an invitation to forgiveness. But, sadly, you don't get your sins forgiven by walking through the open doors; that is you tripping, sad to say.

sbsquarepants

Damn it. Thought I was in on a technicality there!

galljga1

hinault wrote: »

The point that you make about exorcism may be an extreme one but it re-enforces the power of authority and conferring of apostolic succession.

You've read cases I'm sure where "clergy" from protestant denominations having failed to "exorcise" those possessed - and endangering themselves -
have been reduced to begging the Catholic authorities to send them a priest to perform the exorcism correctly?

Even the demonic recognise that only the Catholic church possesses the authority and the means to overcome sin.

Wow! You really cannot get more bigoted and insulting than that.

lazybones32

kneemos wrote: »

The whole forgiving sin scenario has struck me as odd.
Surely it's up to God and God only to forgive sins.Is it not presumptuous for man to forgive sin?

It is God and only God who forgives the sinner. It is even God's grace that 'moves' the person to seek His forgiveness after the Spirit shows the person how/where they have fallen short.

The first time that Jesus is recorded forgiving someones sin, a very similar reaction to yours was noted "Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Jesus' response to this is interesting - "... knowing their thoughts, (he) said, Why do you think evil and harbor malice in your hearts?
For which is easier: to say, Your sins are forgiven and the penalty remitted, or to say, Get up and walk?
But in order that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins and remit the penalty, He then said to the paralyzed man, Get up! Pick up your sleeping pad and go to your own house." Matt. 9 AMP Bible

Jesus had the power and authority to forgive sins when on Earth. He passed this power and authority to some of his followers. There are probably manifold other reasons why Jesus instituted verbal confession of sins and the authority to forgive/withhold forgiveness but that's for another day.

keano_afc

galljga1 wrote: »

Wow! You really cannot get more bigoted and insulting than that.

Its not only bigoted and insulting, its downright incorrect and completely unscriptural.

I believe we have a responsibility in this thread to point people towards God. For all we know, this forum could be the only interaction the Godless get with believers. We need to be careful and prayerful in what we post.

Hinault, I've debated with you before and am very happy to do so. Having your own opinion on spiritual things is perfectly fine, but please back it up and dont run away when its challenged, as you often do.

The statement you make about the Catholic church and the forgiveness of sin is completely inaccurate and I'd be interested to know what you are basing it on. Jesus Christ is the only one to overcome and defeat sin, which his death on the cross proved. Do you believe that? Lazybones makes some great points in his(or her;)) post. Only God, through the blood of Christ, can forgive sin. You've said before you have trouble believing that God hears your prayer, yet for some reason you have no issue with praying to the dead.

I dont expect you to respond to this post, but I will continue to pray that God removes the scales from your eyes and you will see that He alone is sufficient, there is no salvation outside of Him.

uck51js9zml2yt

As for casting out demons, the biblical perspective is that it is the domain of anyone who believes not down to a select few.

The arrogance of saying it's the remit of the Catholic priest is astounding.

J C

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, except there's this to take into account.

All forgiveness of sin is from God. But as Christians we acknowledge an incarnate God; a God who has entered into his creation and works through it. One aspect of this is that the forgiveness of sins is ministered to the world by the church, the body of Christ. Which is why,in all mainstream Christian denominations, absolution from sin is pronounced by the church, through ministers commission by the church to do so.

Are you confusing Roman Catholocism with 'all mainstream churches'?
What other churches have confession boxes for their ministers to pronounce absolution from sin?

uck51js9zml2yt

J C wrote: »

Are you confusing Roman Catholocism with 'all mainstream churches'.
What other churches have confession boxes for their ministers to pronounce absolution from sin?

Its appears he is confused but as far as I know the RC church still believes they are the One true Church and the rest of us are heretics.
Me probably more so as I'm not even I'm any of the main streams.

J C

Cody Brave Microcomputer wrote: »

Yup. Malachy Martin speaks about this phenomenon at some lenght. Everyone knows that if its an exorcism youre after, you look for the Catholics.

An exorcism is a Roman Catholic procedure ... so, if you want an exorcism performed then you obviously need a Roman Catholic priest to do it.
... if you want demons to be commanded to desist, then any Saved Christian can do so, under the authority of Jesus Christ.

uck51js9zml2yt

J C wrote: »

An exorcism is a Roman Catholic procedure ... so, if you want an exorcism performed then you obviously need a Roman Catholic priest to do it.
... if you want demons to be commanded to desist, then any Saved Christian can do so, under the authority of Jesus Christ.

I said that yesterday but let's not let biblical truth get in the way of a man made doctrine

J C

Hana Microscopic Barber wrote: »

I said that yesterday but let's not let biblical truth get in the way of a man made doctrine

Not only that ... I know of Roman Catholic priests who suffered serious mental and physical trauma during exorcisms that went 'wrong'.
You need to be a Saved Christian with the full armour and protection of God to tackle Satan head on.

j80ezgvc3p92xu

keano_afc wrote: »

I'm at a Christian conference at the moment with limited access to Wi-Fi, but suffice to say as soon I get home I'll be refuting this incredulous statement.

Still waiting.

Hana Microscopic Barber wrote: »

As for casting out demons, the biblical perspective is that it is the domain of anyone who believes not down to a select few.

The arrogance of saying it's the remit of the Catholic priest is astounding.

For your own safety I urge you please do not contemplate doing it, no matter how holy you think you are. It can go horribly, horribly wrong.

J C wrote: »

Not only that ... I know of Roman Catholic priests who suffered serious mental and physical trauma during exorcisms that went 'wrong'.
You need to be a Saved Christian with the full armour and protection of God to tackle Satan head on.

Hmm so a priest of the Roman Catholic Church is not a Saved Christian? I'm afraid to ask what your denomination is.

But you are talking about something you have no idea about my friend. Interestingly enaugh I know an exorcist who has been "at it" for dozens of years. He said the devil will often blatantly tell people they have no authority to cast it(?) out. The mistake they then do is try to reason with it(?) and engage in dialogue, which, as any exorcist will tell you, is the biggest mistake they make.

If people take nothing else away from this thread, at least hear this: do not ever attempt to cast anything out of anyone by yourself. Call a priest.

goose1

As a child with no interest in actually giving a proper confession my pushy mother used to nag at me to come up with sins and even to suggest sins... (thank you so much mother dearest.) She then used to question what I had said after Confession....I always lied but Jesus Christ it wasn't her business.....I made it up anyway!

So if you make it up does God know? What are you being forgiven for? Making up sins?

j80ezgvc3p92xu

goose1 wrote: »

As a child with no interest in actually giving a proper confession my pushy mother used to nag at me to come up with sins and even to suggest sins... (thank you so much mother dearest.) She then used to question what I had said after Confession....I always lied but Jesus Christ it wasn't her business.....I made it up anyway!

So if you make it up does God know? What are you being forgiven for? Making up sins?

Of course God knows, because in essence you are confessing your sins to Him. I'm sure you didn't know but lying in confession is a sacrilige if wilfully done. It must in turn be confessed.

Don't be afraid of confession, that is the mistake people do most often and lose out big time. There is no sin God will not forgive if approached with a contrite heart.

This story has been told ad naseaum but here goes anyway. When St Faustina first had an apparition of Jesus she told the local priest who did not believe her. He told her he would if she could ask Jesus to tell her the worst sin he had ever confessed to. Sure enaugh, St Faustina put the question to Our Lord next time he appeared to her and recieved her answer. The priest duly asked what was said and Faustina told him: "Jesus said He does not remember."

That is the beauty and utter Grace of confession. Clean slate.

kneemos

Cody Brave Microcomputer wrote: »

Of course God knows, because in essence you are confessing your sins to Him. I'm sure you didn't know but lying in confession is a sacrilige if wilfully done. It must in turn be confessed.





Why the middle man then?

hinault

J C wrote: »

if you want demons to be commanded to desist, then any Saved Christian can do so, under the authority of Jesus Christ.

Is that a joke?

These "saved christians" possess no authority. It's a joke and a dangerous joke at that.

uck51js9zml2yt

Over the past 30 years I've witnessed a lot of people being delivered from demons, from the simplest touch of the hand,a word spoken to battles.
But i believe the word of God when it says " Theses are the signs that shall follow those who believe....they shall cast out demons in My Name."

homer911

hinault wrote: »

Is that a joke?

These "saved christians" possess no authority. It's a joke and a dangerous joke at that.

What authority would you be looking for? A certificate they can hang on the wall or authority from God?

I think the average Christian has plenty of sense not to mess with this stuff..

hinault

homer911 wrote: »

What authority would you be looking for? A certificate they can hang on the wall or authority from God?

I think the average Christian has plenty of sense not to mess with this stuff..

Authority through apostolic succession, homer911.

It is the only authority.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

Authority through apostolic succession, homer911.

It is the only authority.

I assume you mean by RC succession and authority.
If that was the case then why did Jesus in Mark 16 say it was for every believer along with healing the sick,preaching the gospel and speaking in tounges?

J C

Cody Brave Microcomputer wrote: »

For your own safety I urge you please do not contemplate doing it, no matter how holy you think you are. It can go horribly, horribly wrong.

'Holiness' has nothing to do with it ... we are all sinners in need of God's mercy - and Jesus Christ is the One before whom all demons must bend the knee ... and every Saved Christian has the full authority of Jesus Christ to cast out demons.

Cody Brave Microcomputer wrote: »

Hmm so a priest of the Roman Catholic Church is not a Saved Christian?

I have asked some of them and they say they're not Saved.

Cody Brave Microcomputer wrote: »

But you are talking about something you have no idea about my friend. Interestingly enaugh I know an exorcist who has been "at it" for dozens of years. He said the devil will often blatantly tell people they have no authority to cast it(?) out. The mistake they then do is try to reason with it(?) and engage in dialogue, which, as any exorcist will tell you, is the biggest mistake they make.

No dialogue ... just command the demon to return to where it has come from, in the name of Jesus Christ - and it must obey.

Cody Brave Microcomputer wrote: »

If people take nothing else away from this thread, at least hear this: do not ever attempt to cast anything out of anyone by yourself. Call a priest.

I agree, if you are not Saved then don't ever attempt to command demons.

hinault

Hana Microscopic Barber wrote: »

I assume you mean by RC succession and authority.
If that was the case then why did Jesus in Mark 16 say it was for every believer along with healing the sick,preaching the gospel and speaking in tounges?

If I'm correct the passages which you refer to in St Mark's gospel are 14-18

14 At length he appeared to the eleven, as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart; because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again.

15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not, shall be condemned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: *In my name they shall cast out devils: **they shall speak with new tongues:

18 *They shall take up serpents: and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: **they shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they shall recover.

It appears to me from these verses that Jesus is speaking to the 11 apostles and He is saying that those who will be saved must believe and that their belief, belief expressed in words those same words of belief is validated by works.

Put simply, Jesus teaches that belief cannot be expressed only in words or only in works.
Belief must be expressed in words and works.

uck51js9zml2yt

hinault wrote: »

If I'm correct the passages which you refer to in St Mark's gospel are 14-18



It appears to me from these verses that Jesus is speaking to the 11 apostles and He is saying that those who will be saved must believe and that their belief, belief expressed in words those same words of belief is validated by works.

Put simply, Jesus teaches that belief cannot be expressed only in words or only in works.
Belief must be expressed in words and works.

No doubt He's speaking to the apostles but He says these signs shall follow those who believe which clearly are those who hear the gospel and believe it. Otherwise the speaking in tongues piece just doesn't make sense in relations to events documented both in Acts and Corinthians.
Not to mention handling serpents, casting out demons and healing the sick, all of which Paul did not being part of the original 11_to whom this was said.

looksee

hinault wrote: »

Even the demonic recognise that only the Catholic church possesses the authority and the means to overcome sin.

Can you provide some evidence, or even an argument for this please? Or I would settle for an explanation of who consulted 'the demonic' - and how - to find out what they recognise?

homer911

hinault wrote: »

Authority through apostolic succession, homer911.

It is the only authority.

This is getting boring. Still praying for you

zarquon

Cody Brave Microcomputer wrote: »

Still waiting.



For your own safety I urge you please do not contemplate doing it, no matter how holy you think you are. It can go horribly, horribly wrong.


If people take nothing else away from this thread, at least hear this: do not ever attempt to cast anything out of anyone by yourself. Call a priest.

Jesus said it required faith in his to cast out a demon. He also said sometimes it requires prayer and fasting. No where did he mention any restriction on whom can or cannot do it.
Matthew Chapter 17

14 And when they were come to the multitude, there came to him a [certain] man, kneeling down to him, and saying,
15 Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water.
16 And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
17 Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
18 And Jesus rebuked the devil; and he departed out of him: and the child was cured from that very hour.
19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

hinault wrote: »

And these signs shall follow them that believe: *In my name they shall cast out devils: **they shall speak with new tongues

Indeed. I'd be very worried about priests and catholics who claim they can cast out demons but cannot speak in tongues and cannot heal the sick.

hinault

homer911 wrote: »

This is getting boring. Still praying for you

Thanks, but no thanks.

J C

hinault wrote: »

Thanks, but no thanks.

I accept sincere prayer from whomever offers it.
It's actually a pure form of love for you and your welfare.

keano_afc

Cody Brave Microcomputer wrote: »

Still waiting.

For what? I have already replied to hinault's ramblings. As have many after me.

zarquon

keano_afc wrote: »

For what? I have already replied to hinault's ramblings. As have many after me.

Ironically, i'm still waiting for a response too. I don't bother posting in this forum much as my scripturally thought out rebuttals are always conveniently ignored whilst the protagonists mock others for not responding to them.

Peregrinus

zarquon wrote: »

Ironically, i'm still waiting for a response too. I don't bother posting in this forum much as my scripturally thought out rebuttals are always conveniently ignored whilst the protagonists mock others for not responding to them.

Well, I'd hate you to feel ignored, zarquon!

zarquon wrote: »

Jesus said it required faith in his to cast out a demon. He also said sometimes it requires prayer and fasting. No where did he mention any restriction on whom can or cannot do it . . . I'd be very worried about priests and catholics who claim they can cast out demons but cannot speak in tongues and cannot heal the sick.

I dunno. There are lots of people who can heal the sick, but they're not so hot at speaking in tongues or casting out demons. We call them doctors and nurses.

Seriously, when Jesus says that "you" can do this or that, it's a mistake to think he means you, zarquon, or you, Peregrinus, or you, anyone else in particular. In fact, your own choice of the Authorised Version makes this clear, because it's not "you shall say unto this mountain"; it's "ye". Plural. Which accurately reflects, I believe, the original Greek. He's not talking to me; he's talking to us.

In other words, this is a promise to the church - the community of believers, the people of God, the body of Christ. It's not the case that everyone in the church has every single gift, every single charism, that scripture ever refers to. Paul makes this clear when he points out that different members of the community are called to different apostolates - some are prophets, some are pastors, some are teachers, etc, etc. So, yes, some are called to heal the sick, but not necessarily to other ministries. Some are called to other ministries, but not to healing the sick. And, conceivably, some are called to cast out demons, while others are not.

I am completely with you in rejecting the notion that particular ministries can only be exercised by Catholics (or members of any other particular tradition of Christianity). But I have to quarrel with the notion that if somebody, e.g., doesn't speak in tongues then he can't heal the sick. That contradicts what we know from observation to be true.

keano_afc

zarquon wrote: »

Ironically, i'm still waiting for a response too. I don't bother posting in this forum much as my scripturally thought out rebuttals are always conveniently ignored whilst the protagonists mock others for not responding to them.

Unfortunately thats true. You cant beat a good debate but some would rather attack the poster than deal with the points they raise.

hinault

J C wrote: »

I accept sincere prayer from whomever offers it.
It's actually a pure form of love for you and your welfare.

That's up to you, JC.

The prayers of my fellow Catholics sustain me.

keano_afc

hinault wrote: »

That's up to you, JC.

The prayers of my fellow Catholics sustain me.

Who are they praying to though? You've stated here that you are not convinced God hears prayer. So who is answering the prayer of your fellow Catholics?