NCT fail - Front Subframe - excessive rust

CiniO

Unfortunately this morning my beloved 14 year old Fiat Bravo failed NCT after many years of passing no bother first time.

Front Subframe - excessive rust. Indeed it's well rusted, however it's still in one piece and no loose parts or holes in it.
Tester wasn't too talkative - just said it needs to be replaced or repaired, but he didn't want to relieve what kind of repair would be suitable.

I know it's a fairly cruicial part which in short holds the front suspension.

Wonder now what are my options.

1. Get new one or second hand and fit it - unfortunately I believe it would be very labour intensive so expensive - so hardly worth it on this.
2. Get garage to fix it somehow, but I don't know what could be the procedure.
3. Take a proper wire brush, clear it off rust (without unmounting off the vehicle) and paint it.

Option 3 would definitely be the cheapest one, but I wonder if NCT will accept it during retest.

rex-x

Remove and replace, its a common fail and that's the only fix. Time to cough up sadly.

slimjimmc

Option 3 should be ok but if the rust is somewhere unreachable then you'll have to take it off. You mentioned there are no holes so you probably have "Advanced rust" which hasn't yet progressed to "Extensive rust" as per the NCT manual. Wire brush, treat remaining rust with a rust converter, prime and repaint. You just need to make sure the metal is sound with no flaking/bubbling rust.

CiniO

Option 3 should be fine. Bring it to a mechanic or someone with a ramp, and get right in there with the brush and spraypaint. If it works for rusted brake lines, it should work for other such rust?

CiniO wrote: »

my beloved 14 year old Fiat Bravo

Why did I always think you drove a Subaru?

visual

Option 3 is the worse option hiding the problem under a layer if paint isn't the answer

what if you where in a accident it would fold up and allow engine be pushed into your lap.

Scrap car or buy new sub frame

obezyana

Happened to some one i know a couple of yrs ago the same thing excessive rust. The front subframe was failed but upon inspection by a metal fabricator it was only found to be surface rust which was cleaned off and the subframe repainted, the car subsequently passed the re test. Obviously if the frame is damaged then keep safe and replace it but definitely get it checked out before you go spending big money to replace it.

rex-x

I would get an independent mechanics opinion but the posts claiming option 3 are OK worry me

Sh1tbag OToole

Without pics its hard to know if it's worth trying to fix really.

CiniO

It's actually worse then I thought.
I haven't looked at it for few months, and it really got bad within that time.
Looks like there actually is a hole in the subframe, so I hardly can see now how could this be repaired.
Looks like exchange for new one is the only way...

CiniO

It's a pity, as beside that, there's hardly any rust on that car

obezyana

It looks a bit rough alright. Whats with the red and pink marks on the last photo in the first set of pics?

CiniO

obezyana wrote: »

It looks a bit rough alright. Whats with the red and pink marks on the last photo in the first set of pics?

I assume NCT guy marked it to show that there is rust...
(like it was hard to find it )

greasepalm

that looks a worry ,dont think its repairable and would the rusted bolts shear off in the process of changing it?
one has to think safety first for you and others.

obezyana

CiniO wrote: »

I assume NCT guy marked it to show that there is rust...
(like it was hard to find it )

Or someone tried to re paint it before with pink and red the only colours to hand

CiniO

obezyana wrote: »

Or someone tried to re paint it before with pink and red the only colours to hand

No one tried to repaint it. This car hasn't seen a machanic for years.
I repainted it grey about 5 maybe 6 years ago, as is was getting rusty colour.
Seemed fine until now.

obezyana

CiniO wrote: »

No one tried to repaint it. This car hasn't seen a machanic for years.
I repainted it grey about 5 maybe 6 years ago, as is was getting rusty colour.
Seemed fine until now.

The rusty, red and pink give it character......:D

Sh1tbag OToole

CiniO wrote: »

No one tried to repaint it. This car hasn't seen a machanic for years.
I repainted it grey about 5 maybe 6 years ago, as is was getting rusty colour.
Seemed fine until now.

Ould fecking subframes do be rusting from the inside out and the rust is in an awkward spot that would make welding in a new section quite awkward. Twill probably have to come out anyway so you should probably look for a new one. If you get one second hand sand it and lash on a layer of hammerite

greasepalm

i thought it was one fox less crossing the road=roadkill.

joujoujou

Replace it. Treat bolts/nuts with a lot of wd40/the likes and heat them up very well + cool down prior to removal attempt to prevent from being sheared off.

Superwofy

This is a real bummer .

I dread to think of what it'll be like when I see the same on my car. Only it won't be a replaceable subframe but rather structural parts of the chassis.

I know how you feel op.

JohnBoy26

The next one you get pump it with cavity wax and give the outside a coat of zinc paint. It should last years then.

Bigus

Buy a whole Brava on done deal for peanuts

galwaytt

If the car is otherwise clean, it's worth fixing. You never know - you might get a NOS subframe very cheap.

jimgoose

I had similar a couple of years back with the rear subframe assembly on a 16-year old Jag. Replaced it with a good 'un from a UK breaker for €800. Have at it!

166man

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Option 3 should be fine. Bring it to a mechanic or someone with a ramp, and get right in there with the brush and spraypaint. If it works for rusted brake lines, it should work for other such rust?

Are you serious?

biko

166man wrote: »

Are you serious?

Did you have a suggestion, or do you prefer rhetorical questions?


OP, no way that is salvageable. Start looking for a new part/car.

H3llR4iser

If it's the same issue as some more recent cars have been showing, it might be just surface rust. The problem is that it definitely needs to be taken off the car for inspection, and that is more or less half of the cost.

A couple of years ago I got a like-new front subframe for the 159 (different issue - previous owner had somehow put a dent in it) for about 200€ including delivery - from a breaker near Dublin, he specializes in Alfa/Fiat. Had it fitted for about 150 Euro, so a very reasonable 350€ total expense.

Your best bet would be to look on PartFinder, that's where I found it. Alternatively, I'd have a look on eBay.it, many of the sellers that have large stock would deliver internationally. If the car is in otherwise good condition, it'd make very little sense to go on the second-hand market for a replacement...unless you want to change.

Tazio

^^^ Funny when I read the title of this thread I thought 159! I've had to replaced two sub frames on two 6 year old 159's in the family. P1ss poor quality metal & paint. I bought two secondhand ones from a guy in Kildare and had then sand blasted, sprayed in "Galvafroid".. and then sprayed silver again for the hell of it.

http://www.fosroc.com/product/show/galvafroid

New sub frames were €1000 from FIAT; but it was pointless imo because stock units will rot due to poor paint/protection.

2nd hand 'good' ones were 100 each. 100 for sandblasting, and 100 in materials for paint etc.

I had the frames replaced by an indy with a ramp etc.. it was a two man job. But since they were replaced as part of a full suspension overhaul the cost was semi-masked so to speak.. again I did this as I wanted to keep the cars.. it might have not made financial sense... but...

After looking at the photos of the car above she looks like a keeper imo... (slightly biased when it comes to Italians!) so I'm guessing for similar costs you could get a 2nd hand subframe ready.. of course the pain of removing the old bolts etc is an other story...


I can't find photos of the original rot on my 159 frame... but did find some on the new fixed up one....


Second hand frame:


Sand blasted:


Prepped with GLAVAFROID



SPRAYED silver for bling....

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

............

1. Get new one or second hand and fit it - unfortunately I believe it would be very labour intensive so expensive - so hardly worth it on this.............

On a well minded car that you know it is worth it imo, €2000 can buy you a great car or a good deal of trouble, you'd sort this subframe issue for under €1000.

As you seem to do most of your other work yourself it is easy to tolerate a once off investment like that, there's years left in your Bravo

Looking at the picture it does look a bit worse than I'd have assumed.

If it were me, I'd be off to Donedeal. Buy something for 1-2 grand and with a fresh NCT and you should be okay for another year or or two and then hopefully go from there?

I presume the car itself isn't really worth much, so it'd be hard to justify spending that kinda money on a repair if it was me.

If that's all that is wrong it a no brainer to bolt out the old one and replace with a good used one from a scrappie. In lots of cars the frame is welded on but not in this car so it's an easy job. Lots of wd40 from above the bolts and then don't force the bolts if they feel tight but nice back and forth action until they are loose.

You can even practice with the scrap car first.

Alanstrainor

It'd be great to see the car continue on. Hate seeing good cars scrapped just because of something small. But that being said, I could understand if you moved on seeing what it's worth!

jimgoose

Alanstrainor wrote: »

It'd be great to see the car continue on. Hate seeing good cars scrapped just because of something small...

This upsets me too - shocking, shocking waste.

macplaxton

Pah, it's only a Fiat :pac: You've owned the car, now escape before it owns you (and your wallet). You know it makes sense!

Unless of course you're an eccentric millionaire prone to being flash with the cash.

CiniO

slimjimmc wrote: »

Option 3 should be ok but if the rust is somewhere unreachable then you'll have to take it off. You mentioned there are no holes so you probably have "Advanced rust" which hasn't yet progressed to "Extensive rust" as per the NCT manual. Wire brush, treat remaining rust with a rust converter, prime and repaint. You just need to make sure the metal is sound with no flaking/bubbling rust.

Unfortunately it actually had progressed to extensive rust.
That's what it says in the report, and on the pictures I showed earlier, a hole is visible near the red paint mark which NCT guy did. I don't think there is any other option than replacing the element, as I can't see how otherwise it could be repaired.
I won't be able to get it into any garage until next week, so I'll only see then.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

Why did I always think you drove a Subaru?

I drive many different vehicles but unfortunately Subaru is not among them at the moment

CiniO

Bigus wrote: »

Buy a whole Brava on done deal for peanuts

I already had one few years back. Engine died on it, and as it was my friend's he gave it to me to strip for parts. I have loads of parts now in the shed, including spare gearbox, starter, alternator, etc, but unfortunately subframe is not there. On the car I got it was also rusty.
I'm affraid it's going to be very hard to find one secondhand which actually isn't rusty.

joujoujou

CiniO wrote: »

[...]
I'm affraid it's going to be very hard to find one secondhand which actually isn't rusty.

Never say never...

CiniO

Augeo wrote: »

On a well minded car that you know it is worth it imo, €2000 can buy you a great car or a good deal of trouble, you'd sort this subframe issue for under €1000.

As you seem to do most of your other work yourself it is easy to tolerate a once off investment like that, there's years left in your Bravo

Deleted User wrote: »

Looking at the picture it does look a bit worse than I'd have assumed.

If it were me, I'd be off to Donedeal. Buy something for 1-2 grand and with a fresh NCT and you should be okay for another year or or two and then hopefully go from there?

I presume the car itself isn't really worth much, so it'd be hard to justify spending that kinda money on a repair if it was me.

samih wrote: »

If that's all that is wrong it a no brainer to bolt out the old one and replace with a good used one from a scrappie. In lots of cars the frame is welded on but not in this car so it's an easy job. Lots of wd40 from above the bolts and then don't force the bolts if they feel tight but nice back and forth action until they are loose.

You can even practice with the scrap car first.

Alanstrainor wrote: »

It'd be great to see the car continue on. Hate seeing good cars scrapped just because of something small. But that being said, I could understand if you moved on seeing what it's worth!

macplaxton wrote: »

Pah, it's only a Fiat :pac: You've owned the car, now escape before it owns you (and your wallet). You know it makes sense!

Unless of course you're an eccentric millionaire prone to being flash with the cash.

This car now has really more sentimental value than money value to me.
It's 2001 Fiat bravo 1.2 with 235k kilometres on the clock.
I got it 7 years ago in 2008 for peanuts with 125k kms. Advert asked for €1800, I offered €1300 thinking I would meet seller in the middle and take it for €1500. She didn't even say anything and accepted €1300 (for 7 years old good car :eek:)
It was meant to be a cheap runaround to last for a year or two.
After purchase, I realised, that she actually gave me a whole full service history, which proved that every single fault was fixed right away. All services done on time. Few months before she sold it, it had a clutch changed, wishbones, etc which cost her over €900. Generally it was a great bargain at that time for me.

Since I bought it, it was used always as a second car in a family, so no big mileage - about 15k km a year only.
It's sentimental though, as this car taught me a lot about mechanics and doing something on your own on a car.
I changed oil + filters every year myself.
I changed timing belt myself in 2009.
In 2011 as suspension (which is not strong side of those cars) was wrecked, so I fit 4 new KYB shocks + eibach lowering springs + 2 new front wishbones (as balljoints were loose) + antiroll-bar droplinks + inner and outer tie rods. I also fitted strut brace. Since then car is really great to handle on bendy roads which it's mostly driven on. And all those was fitted by myself. Took me few weeks having car on stands in front of my house.
It's not too powerfull, but for Irish country roads it's nippy enough with 80HP 16v engine which likes revving high. And never had a single problem with that engine and even now with 235k km which is high for small engine it still runs perfectly and doens't burn any oil.
Only works I've done in garages really was exhaust which rotted, and was fully exchanged in 2011 for over €300. Only catalitic converter is still original. Also rear brake lines were done by garage as I have no patience to deal with those awkward springs there inside the mechanise, and rear suspensions arm upper bushing were changed in a garage, as they became loose and it was really heavy job with angle grinder and I had no equipment to do it myself. All other jobs were done by myself.

So after all those years and jobs done, I really have a big sentiment for that car, and it still works great as second car in a family, even though it's not exactly too comfortable to carry 2 kids to school with only 3 doors and lowered suspension

I would love to keep it forever, but fixing this subframe might be unfortunately very costly and there might be more expanses soon. Clutch has already done about 120km and they don't last much more than that so this will be a job soon. Timing belt is due. Front discs and pads. Also head gasket can't last forever on it - it's a Fiat in the end - gasket must go at some stage.

I won't scrap her though - that's for sure.
I'll either get subframe fixed if cost is reasonable, and if not, I'll just take this car to my family home in Poland, do all necessary jobs for 1/4 the cost, and park it at the garage there. I'll use it only as holiday car, and keep it for future as a classic

joujoujou

Maybe consider getting a subframe from Poland? Many of those private couriers would quote you at approx 20 € (or even less) for transport. Refitting it here (+ tracking) would not cost you a fortune.

CiniO

joujoujou wrote: »

Maybe consider getting a subframe from Poland? Many of those private couriers would quote you at approx 20 € (or even less) for transport. Refitting it here (+ tracking) would not cost you a fortune.

I struggle to find any
Only one I found on allegro is this. Doesn't look great tbh.

Tracking - I always do it myself with piece of string

joujoujou

Looks significantly better than yours.

Would brava fit, by the way?

CiniO

joujoujou wrote: »

Looks significantly better than yours.

Would brava fit, by the way?

I'm sure it would.

166man

biko wrote: »

Did you have a suggestion, or do you prefer rhetorical questions?


OP, no way that is salvageable. Start looking for a new part/car.

No, I had a question, asking him if he was being serious to suggest what he did. I mean honestly......

CiniO

166man wrote: »

No, I had a question, asking him if he was being serious to suggest what he did. I mean honestly......

He suggested that before I showed pictures.

166man

CiniO wrote: »

He suggested that before I showed pictures.

So...? You stated rust on the subframe and he suggested that all rust is the same and paint over it and it would be grand? I'm sure he's well aware a subframe is a key structural part of a car......

mickdw

166man wrote: »

So...? You stated rust on the subframe and he suggested that all rust is the same and paint over it and it would be grand? I'm sure he's well aware a subframe is a key structural part of a car......

But is quite possible that it wasn't so serious and could have been saved by removal, cleaning and painting.
On investigation, that was found to not be possible but it wasn't to be known until inspected.

galwaytt

CiniO wrote: »

I already had one few years back. Engine died on it, and as it was my friend's he gave it to me to strip for parts. I have loads of parts now in the shed, including spare gearbox, starter, alternator, etc, but unfortunately subframe is not there. On the car I got it was also rusty.
I'm affraid it's going to be very hard to find one secondhand which actually isn't rusty.

...tbh, even if you get one that is better than yours, but still not perfect, you can strip it, repair it properly and still swap it into your car.

I'd be very reluctant to scrap a car over (any) kind of bolt-in part.

joujoujou

CiniO wrote: »

I'm sure it would.

Wanna try?

By the way - I wonder how much would Fiat want for a new one? Did you ask them?

166man

mickdw wrote: »

But is quite possible that it wasn't so serious and could have been saved by removal, cleaning and painting.
On investigation, that was found to not be possible but it wasn't to be known until inspected.

If it wasn't serious then why would the qualified NCT tester fail it (having inspected it) for having excessive rust? The op even says it was rusted badly.

To suggest that it's ok to paint over it and drive it on through the test because all rust is the same (?!) is just downright ridiculous.

CiniO

joujoujou wrote: »

Wanna try?

Do you have one?

By the way - I wonder how much would Fiat want for a new one? Did you ask them?

I didn't actually. I'll ring them tomorrow.