Transport Operators want peak-time Free Travel restricted

StreetLight

lxflyer wrote: »

That's not how government budgets work.

No, but it's how politics works.

foggy_lad

It seems every few weeks one of these anti-free travel threads appears and the attitudes and opinions expressed are often scary and make me think that Ireland is becoming an increasingly fascist society.

Those people who appear and are described as Junkies or "The Living Dead" are above all "Human"! They are someone's brother, sister, mother, father uncle aunt or just friend/neighbour.

Many are people who have serious underlying mental illnesses and get involved in swapping their medication or taking heroin or other drugs to alleviate symptoms of their condition.

Many of these people suffer from really catastrophic brain injuries after crashes and accidents that we as relatively able bodied people can't even imagine. Many have to be thought to walk and talk again and unfortunately lack of funding means that most do not get the level of social re/training to help them act appropriately in public. Their physical rehabilitation takes precedence and they are then passed over to the mental health services where their problems really start!

I personally know two of these young men who were both in car crashes and both survived with visibly minor injuries but they both wish that they had been killed outright because their lives as they knew ended in the crashes.

Both of them had life changing brain injuries and their personalities and everything else about them has changed. They would see nothing wrong with urinating in public or in a corner on a train or tram because they see that act differently to how we see it, we think "oh no I can't do that" but they think "I need to go now".

There is no malice in their actions, they are not doing what they do to annoy anyone or because they feel entitled but the way they behave in public is totally different to how they used to be and they now act on their needs without thinking because part of their brain is damaged.

Should these people be locked away for the rest of their days? that would cost a lot more than giving them free travel and letting them out and about which usually has long term rehabilitate effects on them. Some of them can be described as Junkies but in many cases they are taking drugs because they have been failed by our health services and especially our not fit for purpose mental health services!

Hilly Bill

They should have carers with them in that scenario. I can't see the time restrictions working to be honest.

Jesus Wept

Infini2 wrote: »

To be honest its not the Old People that should be restricted they're all legitimate of course its the REST (ie. Junkies, Unemployed, Supposedlydisabledbutnotactuallydisabled) that need to be restricted. Its the latter group that in recent years that has exploded in terms of pass numbers and at this point you cant be suprised that they'd want some restrictions imposed expecially since it was originally restricted in the 1st place and was done away with via political interference.

Any evidence that people get free travel on the basis of being unemployed?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

foggy_lad

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They should have carers with them in that scenario. I can't see the time restrictions working to be honest.

And you and others won't be whinging about the added cost of all those carers hours and free travel for the carers too!

Most only get a very small fraction of the personal assistant/home help/carers hours that they should have, this is why they look dirty and unkempt and often look like they had a fit while dressing themselves.

They have great difficulty doing the basics like washing or dressing and they get no help from the HSE.

Je suis Mario wrote: »

Any evidence that people get free travel on the basis of being unemployed?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/extra_social_welfare_benefits/free_travel.html

No evidence at all! also no person gets free travel because they are a junkie or addict.

Hilly Bill

Foggy, i couldn't give a fiddlers who gets what and i only said that if someone thinks nothing of urinating on a train because of a disability then that person shouldn't be travelling on their own.

hmmm

Commuter buses are already miserable enough for those of us paying for this "free travel" gravy train, without putting off fleet replacements to help pay for it all. You can drive away everyone who is paying actual money for this service, but don't come back afterwards wondering why services are cut as a consequence. 1.2 million people with free travel is mind-blowing, absolutely mind-blowing - I've no problem with people with real disabilities getting free travel, but you're not going to convince me that a third of the population can justify having everyone else pay for their travel.

And the "dignity" of avoiding means testing? How do you justify someone on minimum wage having to pay for the bus, but some rich retired pensioner can complain about being upset about the "indignity" of being asked to pay something towards their travel? They've no problem with the "indignity" of waving around their free travel passes.

end of the road

newacc2015 wrote: »

I wish they would introduce time restrictions on DART, Dublin Bus and Luas services. Its ridiculous a FT holder can be on congested Luas for free, while everyone is trying to get it to work. Its not reasonable to expect them to use it between off peak hours.

there would be no point in implementing such restriction.

newacc2015 wrote: »

I find it ridiculous how over priced student travel is here compared to Germany or France. A semester ticket in a German College city is about €60 for a term. Thats 3 weeks on Dublin Bus with student capping.

it all comes down to funding and subsidy.

end of the road

devnull wrote: »

I know a GP who used to do exactly that.

The local community protested, about having a doctor who prescribes it in their neighbourhood and said it wshould be done in clinics, not in residential areas.

Can't win.

that wouldn't be an issue if backing was given to gps by government to do it. the community would have no choice but to except it as any nonsense would be stoped hard.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

Commuter buses are already miserable enough for those of us paying for this "free travel" gravy train, without putting off fleet replacements to help pay for it all. You can drive away everyone who is paying actual money for this service, but don't come back afterwards wondering why services are cut as a consequence. 1.2 million people with free travel is mind-blowing, absolutely mind-blowing - I've no problem with people with real disabilities getting free travel, but you're not going to convince me that a third of the population can justify having everyone else pay for their travel.

And the "dignity" of avoiding means testing? How do you justify someone on minimum wage having to pay for the bus, but some rich retired pensioner can complain about being upset about the "indignity" of being asked to pay something towards their travel? They've no problem with the "indignity" of waving around their free travel passes.

that rich pensioner would have payed a huge amount of tax for a long time. they more then earned their pass. i suppose when you get to 65/66 you won't apply for it, or if automatically received you will hand it back?

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

that rich pensioner would have payed a huge amount of tax for a long time. they more then earned their pass. i suppose when you get to 65/66 you won't apply for it, or if automatically received you will hand it back?

This is the generation where a small number of workers payed massive taxes, who spent all the tax money collected on themselves, who left a crumbling and antiquated infrastructure which has had to be repaired with borrowed money, and who didn't bother providing for their pensions and are expecting younger workers to now pay for their retirements (while pulling the drawbridge up behind them)? Spare me.

Where is the fairness in spending our tax money giving pensioners free travel while a minimum wage worker has to pay?

devnull

end of the road wrote: »

that wouldn't be an issue if backing was given to gps by government to do it. the community would have no choice but to except it as any nonsense would be stoped hard.

Doctors have often complained that they are professionals and they can't turn away people just because they have an addiction etc, but generally residents don't care about that.

The way they see it is that they don't want a doctor to prescribe it in their area, because it invites local addicts to it, and they are worried about their kids safety if they find needles etc.

There have been campaigns to boycott GP's who see such patients, regardless of what the government does, the GP will go out of business quite fast.

The fact is with Methadone clinics it's pretty much everyone wants them everywhere apart from near them, typical NIMBY-ism.

munchkin_utd

hmmm wrote: »

<snip>
Where is the fairness in spending our tax money giving pensioners free travel while a minimum wage worker has to pay?

in one sence, its unfair, but in another, the minumum wage worker gets health and goddamn everything else without having to pay a cent of tax, so paying for the bus could be considered the flipside of getting away with the most generous tax system in the western world for low paid workers.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

This is the generation where a small number of workers payed massive taxes, who spent all the tax money collected on themselves, who left a crumbling and antiquated infrastructure which has had to be repaired with borrowed money, and who didn't bother providing for their pensions and are expecting younger workers to now pay for their retirements (while pulling the drawbridge up behind them)? Spare me.

no, not spare you. you think all these rich pensioners were politicians? wrong. some of them worked as managers, and other jobs which payed a good wage. they payed a large amount of tax on that wage, and the governments decided not to spend it on the infrastructure. no drawbridge was pulled up. now, when you get to 65/66 will you take up the pass or hand it back?

hmmm wrote: »

Where is the fairness in spending our tax money giving pensioners free travel while a minimum wage worker has to pay?

fairness doesn't come into it. the government decided that certain sections of society are entitled to free travel. the pensioners are one such section, and they earned it.

end of the road

a

devnull wrote: »

Doctors have often complained that they are professionals and they can't turn away people just because they have an addiction etc, but generally residents don't care about that.

The way they see it is that they don't want a doctor to prescribe it in their area, because it invites local addicts to it, and they are worried about their kids safety if they find needles etc.

There have been campaigns to boycott GP's who see such patients, regardless of what the government does, the GP will go out of business quite fast.

The fact is with Methadone clinics it's pretty much everyone wants them everywhere apart from near them, typical NIMBY-ism.

which is why
1. if a gp is put out of business, residents will be unable to register with another one (they will be left without)
2. a clinnic will be built in the area and if interfered with will be met by a hard responce by the authorities.

anything can be done with will and a government determined to implement this.

hmmm

end of the road wrote: »

now, when you get to 65/66 will you take up the pass or hand it back?

I don't believe that any of these unaffordable mass handouts will be available to my generation, so no.

dfx-

end of the road wrote: »

that rich pensioner would have payed a huge amount of tax for a long time. they more then earned their pass. i suppose when you get to 65/66 you won't apply for it, or if automatically received you will hand it back?

that's for the rich pensioners that get the bus. Which would be very few in my experience.

I'd say you'd get a well deserved clip around the ear from them if you told them in person 'you are rich, give back the pass'.

end of the road

hmmm wrote: »

I don't believe that any of these unaffordable mass handouts will be available to my generation, so no.

so you wouldn't hand it back then. thought so.

Crumbs868

What makes Irish travel pass holders more entitled than their UK counterparts who don't get 24/7 free travel. Irish people are only too quick to point out how great the UK is unless its the other way around.

Same applies to compo payouts, Ireland pays 2x compared to UK and working joe soap picks up the tab for the abusers of the system.

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

that's for the rich pensioners that get the bus. Which would be very few in my experience.

I'd say you'd get a well deserved clip around the ear from them if you told them in person 'you are rich, give back the pass'.

A group of pensioners were on the Aircoach from Greystones a few weeks back, on their way to the UAE from T2.

They spent the whole time from Blackrock at least moaning about how they wouldn't be able to afford any more taxes that came in because they were living on the breadline right now.

They were also talking about the free travel pass and how some people seem to begrudge them of it and how it is a lifeline to them.

cdebru

devnull wrote: »

A group of pensioners were on the Aircoach from Greystones a few weeks back, on their way to the UAE from T2.

They spent the whole time from Blackrock at least moaning about how they wouldn't be able to afford any more taxes that came in because they were living on the breadline right now.

They were also talking about the free travel pass and how some people seem to begrudge them of it and how it is a lifeline to them.

But they managed to pay for their flights to the UAE ?

BTW I don't begrudge pensioners free travel, they are not the problem.

markpb

cdebru wrote: »

I don't begrudge pensioners free travel, they are not the problem.

Do we know the breakdown of where the 1.25m FT passes were allocated? Perhaps pensioners make up the bulk of that and are the problem (for operators)?

Crumbs868

There are plefty of pensioners taking train trips to pass the time, this is a problem at busy times. Solution like the UK is at peak times a small fare is required.

XPS_Zero

Some people in this country have a weird chip on their shoulder about other people getting any kind of public service if they themselves don't, they also seem to have a very exaggerated idea of the cost of such programmes as evidenced by the "unaffordable MASS handouts" comment above.
There is nothing unaffordable or 'mass' about any handouts here Ireland has one of the most modest welfare states in the developed world, definitely most modest in Europe, were the only one besides the US not to have universal healthcare for example (though we are getting towards it in a clumsy and highly inefficient way)

IMO the problem with the card is simple: Good idea poorly executed
Just restricting the times makes no sense, the argument of old people crowding the busses during peak time is ridiculous the reason that was stopped to begin with was to ensure people didn't have to panic if a bus was late cos they didn't have any money on them to get home, and thus end up stranded for hours because of an irrational rule. If CIE wants to really save money then we could start by cutting out about 1/3 of the fat that makes up it's various bodies.

I'm on rush hour transport every day and I don't see this supposed problem of greys blocking up the seats.


One simple reform would do a lot for it: Eliminate it for all but those on pensions or permanent disabilities

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

LXFlyer

Getting older people out and about is part of the reason for the free travel pass - it keeps people active mentally and physically, and they're not sitting at home doing nothing.

I would never knock that aspect of the scheme.

end of the road

Crumbs868 wrote: »

There are plefty of pensioners taking train trips to pass the time, this is a problem at busy times.

no, it isn't. i've only ever heard of a couple of incidents of this. like everything in ireland it gets blown out of proportion and over exaggerated.

Crumbs868 wrote: »

Solution like the UK is at peak times a small fare is required.

actually, it isn't. ensuring our rail network can be used to its capacity when needed, like it should be, is the solution.

Crumbs868

lxflyer wrote: »

Getting older people out and about is part of the reason for the free travel pass - it keeps people active mentally and physically, and they're not sitting at home doing nothing.

I would never knock that aspect of the scheme.

Where did I say lock them up?

My post stated apply a reduced fare at peak times nothing else!!

Crumbs868

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Anything to back up that sweeping statement?


That would result in no change to the status quo.

I challenge your sweeping statement, have you any evidence to counter my statement?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.