Driving to school

kealb14

I will be driving to school myself soon and I have some questions. My school has a policy that all students who drive to school must hand in their car keys in the morning and can collect them when school is over to drive home. I was wondering am I legally obligated to give them my car keys? I don't mind giving them my keys but I know if I ever need to go home early for sickness etc. They won't give me my keys and will try to get me to stay at school. Are they legally allowed to refuse to give me my car keys? I mean by right it has nothing to do with them as the car will be parked on a public road?

Also, there have been a few times when school management have actually gone out to students cars and used their keys to search the car without the knowledge or consent of the student in search of(e.g spray cans if they suspect the student is doing graffiti) surely this is not legal? Would there be any legal actions I could take if they were by chance to do this to me? Again as I said the car is my property and is parked off school property on a public road.

I'm not sure if this post is in the right place but I would appreciate if anyone could help me with this subject.

Squidgy Black

kealb14 wrote: »

I will be driving to school myself soon and I have some questions. My school has a policy that all students who drive to school must hand in their car keys in the morning and can collect them when school is over to drive home. I was wondering am I legally obligated to give them my car keys? I don't mind giving them my keys but I know if I ever need to go home early for sickness etc. They won't give me my keys and will try to get me to stay at school. Are they legally allowed to refuse to give me my car keys? I mean by right it has nothing to do with them as the car will be parked on a public road?

Also, there have been a few times when school management have actually gone out to students cars and used their keys to search the car without the knowledge or consent of the student in search of(e.g spray cans if they suspect the student is doing graffiti) surely this is not legal? Would there be any legal actions I could take if they were by chance to do this to me? Again as I said the car is my property and is parked off school property on a public road.

I'm not sure if this post is in the right place but I would appreciate if anyone could help me with this subject.

If the car isn't parked on school property then why on earth would you give them the keys? You could easily just tell them to fúck off, what are they going to do?

jaymcg91

Don't know the rules but I wouldn't be giving my car keys out in a million years to anybody!

They can't take them off you, I guess they could say you can't park on school grounds? That's about it though.

kealb14

jaymcg91 wrote: »

Don't know the rules but I wouldn't be giving my car keys out in a million years to anybody!

They can't take them off you, I guess they could say you can't park on school grounds? That's about it though.

We're not even allowed to use the car park anyway, but they still try and take away our keys.

kneemos

I believe they could take them,being responsible for your health and safety during school hours.

blinding

You should be renting the car out to joyriders when you are at school.

Have you no entrepreneurial (?) nous abut ya ?

endacl

Why's everythin feckin' legalwhataremyrightswhatactioncanitake these days?!? Their school, their rules, OP. Deal with it.

My advice: leave the car at home. Walking or cycling is better for you, and there's enough bloody traffic on the roads at that time of the morning already, because kids won't walk or cycle to school.

kealb14

blinding wrote: »

You should be renting the car out to joyriders when you are at school.

Have you no entrepreneurial (?) nous abut ya ?

Ya I'm sure I'd make a killing renting out my gt starlet😂

kealb14

endacl wrote: »

Why's everythin feckin' legalwhataremyrightswhatactioncanitake these days?!? Their school, their rules, OP. Deal with it.

My advice: leave the car at home. Walking or cycling is better for you, and there's enough bloody traffic on the roads at that time of the morning already, because kids won't walk or cycle to school.

Ya you're right ill just cycle 12 km to school instead of driving my car which I paid to insure.

Squidgy Black

Have you a full licence OP? If not you're not actually insured if you're bit driving without someone who's had a full licence for at least two years.

endacl

kealb14 wrote: »

Ya you're right ill just cycle 12 km to school instead of driving my car which I paid to insure.

12k? Nice spin. Do you good.

kealb14

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Have you a full licence OP? If not you're not actually insured if you're bit driving without someone who's had a full licence for at least two years.

No I only have a provisional but I guess that's my risk to take.

endacl

kealb14 wrote: »

No I only have a provisional but I guess that's my risk to take.

Unqualified too? Not just your risk so...

kealb14

endacl wrote: »

Unqualified too? Not just your risk so...

And what does this have to do with my question? You don't know whether or not I am a good driver.

Squidgy Black

kealb14 wrote: »

No I only have a provisional but I guess that's my risk to take.

Wouldn't if I was you, 3 points and an 80 quid fine minimum. Also if you have an accident the insurance will chase you up for any fees they pay out to the third party, and you won't be given a penny.

Also the school would have a decent leg to stand on by saying you're uninsured if you tried to fight them in regards to holding the keys.

kealb14

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Wouldn't if I was you, 3 points and an 80 quid fine minimum. Also if you have an accident the insurance will chase you up for any fees they pay out to the third party, and you won't be given a penny.

Also the school would have a decent leg to stand on by saying you're uninsured if you tried to fight them in regards to holding the keys.

Regardless, I did TY so I'm only in 5th year and I'm going for my full license in a few months, so I'll still be spending almost 2 years driving to school

Squidgy Black

kealb14 wrote: »

Regardless, I did TY so I'm only in 5th year and I'm going for my full license in a few months, so I'll still be spending almost 2 years driving to school

Doesn't matter, you're only what, 17? If you were fully licensed and insured fair enough, but you're only driving a short while I assume, won't be insured, won't be driving legally, you don't have a leg to stand on for arguing with the school. Especially seeing as during school hours they're responsible for your safety.

kealb14

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

Doesn't matter, you're only what, 17? If you were fully licensed and insured fair enough, but you're only driving a short while I assume, won't be insured, won't be driving legally, you don't have a leg to stand on for arguing with the school. Especially seeing as during school hours they're responsible for your safety.

No but what I mean is in a few months ill have a full license and will be driving legally. If the government trust me with a car why shouldn't the school?

Squidgy Black

kealb14 wrote: »

No but what I mean is in a few months ill have a full license and will be driving legally. If the government trust me with a car why shouldn't the school?

At the moment they don't. They only trust you when you've someone in the car who has a full licence for over two years.

If you've a full licence fair enough, but at the moment you don't so it's a pointless argument.

kealb14

_Tyrrell_ wrote: »

At the moment they don't. They only trust you when you've someone in the car who has a full licence for over two years.

If you've a full licence fair enough, but at the moment you don't so it's a pointless argument.

You're misunderstanding me, I now understand that I have no hope in fighting the school on a provisional license, but what about in a few months when I get my full license? It's my property, parked on a public road.

Cookie_Monster

kealb14 wrote: »

No but what I mean is in a few months ill have a full license and will be driving legally. If the government trust me with a car why shouldn't the school?

you may have. Don't just assume you'll pass first time without any problems...

blinding

I know some people who could look after the car for you when you are in school.

And they won't burn it or anything if you pay them, their (to them) quite reasonable fee.

kealb14

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

you may have. Don't just assume you'll pass first time without any problems...

Ok for Christ's sake this isn't even answering my question. No, I may not pads first time, but considering I am a very confident driver and that most people I know passed first time no bother, I'm going to presume that sometime in the next 2 years I will get my full license and will have to address this issue at school...happy?

kealb14

blinding wrote: »

I know some people who could look after the car for you when you are in school.

And they won't burn it or anything if you pay them, their (to them) quite reasonable fee.

No I'm fine thanks I'll just keep it parked up

What the school is trying to avoid is a car full of kids going for a spin at lunchtime and any possible consequences thereof. Especially if the driver is driving illegally.
You do know that if you have an accident while driving unaccompanied that the insurance company could void your insurance?

kealb14

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What the school is trying to avoid is a car full of kids going for a spin at lunchtime and any possible consequences thereof. Especially if the driver is driving illegally.
You do know that if you have an accident while driving unaccompanied that the insurance company could void your insurance?

Well they're not getting my keys and I don't care they have no excuse to be searching students cars.

Peregrinus

The legal position is that the school stands in loco parentis, and they can impose any requirements on you which a parent could impose on a child. (Whether your parents would in fact impose these requirements on you is not relevant. The question is whether a hypothetical parent could impose this requirement on a hypothetical child.)

Given that principle, I think the school could get away with a rule that says, if you bring your car keys to school, they have to be left in our custody at all times when you are not supposed to be driving the car - i.e. when you have no permission to leave the school grounds. That's the kind of rule a parent could certainly impose on a child. The object is not just to prevent the student whose car it is from driving it, but to safeguard the car keys so that nobody else in the school can, um, "acquire" the keys and drive the car, with or without the owner's permission.

They could also impose a rule that you should not give other pupils a lift to or from school.

I have doubts as to whether the school could justify using the keys to search the car without your permission while the car is not on school property. They have authority over you while you're in the school or participating in school activities, and over any property you bring to school, but I don't think their authority stretches to all your property, wherever situated. If they could search your car when parked near the school, could they search it when parked further away? When parked in your driveway at home? So I think that crosses a line.

kealb14

Peregrinus wrote: »

The legal position is that the school stands in loco parentis, and they can impose any requirements on you which a parent could impose on a child. (Whether your parents would in fact impose these requirements on you is not relevant. The question is whether a hypothetical parent could impose this requirement on a hypothetical child.)

Given that principle, I think the school could get away with a rule that says, if you bring your car keys to school, they have to be left in our custody at all times when you are not supposed to be driving the car - i.e. when you have no permission to leave the school grounds. That's the kind of rule a parent could certainly impose on a child. The object is not just to prevent the student whose car it is from driving it, but to safeguard the car keys so that nobody else in the school can, um, "acquire" the keys and drive the car, with or without the owner's permission.

They could also impose a rule that you should not give other pupils a lift to or from school.

I have doubts as to whether the school could justify using the keys to search the car without your permission while the car is not on school property. They have authority over you while you're in the school or participating in school activities, and over any property you bring to school, but I don't think their authority stretches to all your property, wherever situated. If they could search your car when parked near the school, could they search it when parked further away? When parked in your driveway at home? So I think that crosses a line.

Thank you for your answer. Seems like it would be almost impossible to get out of this one so... I suppose I could just give them my key and not my alarm remote so even if they do try and search the car they would trigger the alarm? That seems reasonable to me. Their students are safe and I have my privacy.

Samaris

kealb14 wrote: »

Thank you for your answer. Seems like it would be almost impossible to get out of this one so... I suppose I could just give them my key and not my alarm remote so even if they do try and search the car they would trigger the alarm? That seems reasonable to me. Their students are safe and I have my privacy.

Seems reasonable enough. If the car is not parked on school property, I'd probably conveniently "forget" the rule myself. Someone said it was a case of 'my property, my rules' for the school which I think is a bit rubbish, the car is -not- on their property.

Having said that, as s school admin, if I knew one of my students was driving to school essentially illegally, I'd be inclined to have a serious word with them and their parents and then ban them from bringing it to school on the grounds of being a general menace.

Yeah those two opinions can be argued against each other , but I have a higher regard for the law than a silly house rule that mostly impedes on privacy.

kealb14

Samaris wrote: »

Seems reasonable enough. If the car is not parked on school property, I'd probably conveniently "forget" the rule myself. Someone said it was a case of 'my property, my rules' for the school which I think is a bit rubbish, the car is -not- on their property.

Having said that, as s school admin, if I knew one of my students was driving to school essentially illegally, I'd be inclined to have a serious word with them and their parents and then ban them from bringing it to school on the grounds of being a general menace.

Yeah those two opinions can be argued against each other , but I have a higher regard for the law than a silly house rule that mostly impedes on privacy.

Ya I'm gonna try and hide the fact that I'm driving to school at all for as long as I can.
Quite a few of the lads in school actually drive to school on provisional and clearly park there cars outside the school with their 'L' plates clearly visible. I just don't think it's necessary for them to have my keys. I know they have their reasons, but at the end of the day it's my car. Thanks for your help.

scudzilla

Go to a scrapyard, buy an old set of keys, shouldn't be more than a tenner, any keys will do, add some keyrings on to personalise the bunch and hand them in every day.

School thinks they've won, you still have your keys

empacher

why even let me know you have a car op? why not just park it a 2min walk from the school so teachers don't see you getting out?

kealb14

scudzilla wrote: »

Go to a scrapyard, buy an old set of keys, shouldn't be more than a tenner, any keys will do, add some keyrings on to personalise the bunch and hand them in every day.

School thinks they've won, you still have your keys

This seems like the easiest option, thanks.... and if they ever try to search my car they'll realise it doesn't work and they'll come to me.... and will have to explain why they attempted to break into my car... sounds good!

kealb14

empacher wrote: »

why even let me know you have a car op? why not just park it a 2min walk from the school so teachers don't see you getting out?

Wouldn't be a bad idea... there's an estate literally right beside the school so I could park there, thanks.

Peregrinus

kealb14 wrote: »

Thank you for your answer. Seems like it would be almost impossible to get out of this one so... I suppose I could just give them my key and not my alarm remote so even if they do try and search the car they would trigger the alarm? That seems reasonable to me. Their students are safe and I have my privacy.

That does seem reasonable. They haven't said, have they, that they want to be able to search the car? So I don't think they can have any reasonable objection to the car being protected by an alarm, and they having no control over the alarm.

Far be it from me to encourage disobedience or rule evasion, but you could always bring a spare set of keys so that, if you ever did need or want to leave without reclaiming the keys you had handed in, you could do so. Of course, all hell would break loose if you ever did that, or if the spare set were ever lost or stolen, but those are risks you may decide you are prepared to run in order to maintain the last-resort option of immediate flight!

(You mention in your OP having to go home early for sickness. To be honest, if you are too sick to be in school you are quite possibly too sick to be driving, and this is precisely the kind of risk that the school seeks to avoid through its policy of holding on to keys. If God had intended you to drive while too ill to work, he would not have created taxis. The argument that you're mature enough to be trusted with control of your own car isn't established by pointing to the fact that you have a licence; it needs to be demonstrated by your choices and actions.)

kealb14

Peregrinus wrote: »

That does seem reasonable. They haven't said, have they, that they want to be able to search the car? So I don't think they can have any reasonable objection to the car being protected by an alarm, and they having no control over the alarm.

Far be it from me to encourage disobedience or rule evasion, but you could always bring a spare set of keys so that, if you ever did need or want to leave without reclaiming the keys you had handed in, you could do so. Of course, all hell would break loose if you ever did that, or if the spare set were ever lost or stolen, but those are risks you may decide you are prepared to run in order to maintain the last-resort option of immediate flight!

(You mention in your OP having to go home early for sickness. To be honest, if you are too sick to be in school you are quite possibly too sick to be driving, and this is precisely the kind of risk that the school seeks to avoid through its policy of holding on to keys. If God had intended you to drive while too ill to work, he would not have created taxis. The argument that you're mature enough to be trusted with control of your own car isn't established by pointing to the fact that you have a licence; it needs to be demonstrated by your choices and actions.)

No but there have been occasions when they have just searched a students car without their permission so I'd just like to prevent that. Ya I might bring a spare set of keys... I like knowing I can leave if I need to. Ya I guess you're right, it would be a better idea just to get collected by a parent if I was sick. But even if I were to have a doctors appointment or something it would be more convenient, and our school requires a parent to sign us out at the school to leave early so I know they wouldn't give me my keys if I wanted to leave.

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000

Calling BS on OP.
Turbo starlet at that age on a provisional.

What's your insurance, 4k, 5k?
You're probably not even legal in it.

kealb14

The Honey Monster wrote: »

Calling BS on OP.
Turbo starlet at that age on a provisional.

What's your insurance, 4k, 5k?
You're probably not even legal in it.

Gt rep, only a 1 litre hahah

Shield

To answer your question:

No, nobody can demand your car keys except in very rare circumstances.

However, you are in school. You don't legally have to stay in school past the age of 16, so you're there voluntarily. You don't legally have to do (for example) lines, detention, penalty sheets, and so on.

You're there because you want to be there. Schools have policies like this in place for the benefit of all students, not just you. For example, what would happen if someone beat you up, took your car, and killed either themselves or someone else?

Hope this helps.

-Shield.

kealb14

Shield wrote: »

To answer your question:

No, nobody can demand your car keys except in very rare circumstances.

However, you are in school. You don't legally have to stay in school past the age of 16, so you're there voluntarily. You don't legally have to do (for example) lines, detention, penalty sheets, and so on.

You're there because you want to be there. Schools have policies like this in place for the benefit of all students, not just you. For example, what would happen if someone beat you up, took your car, and killed either themselves?

Hope this helps.

-Shield.

Thanks for your answer. Yes, I understand where you're coming from about how someone could steal the car... but really it should be up to me whether or not I feel safe with my keys. I mean, someone could beat you up and take your car no matter where you are. Thanks for your help.

freshpopcorn

Hi OP,
Okay you've decided to drive to school by yourself on a learner permit.
This is all in my experience. I'm slightly older than you and know people you age as well.
Driving without a fully licensed driver carries 3 penalty point and a fine of €80.
In my experience Gardai generally wave people on once their not acting the maggot, however you could meat a cross Garda.
I've also heard of people being involved in accidents driving by themselves. Insurance covered the other divers. Most people I know who are young only have third party fire and teft anyway. These people also got back driving again once they could afford a new car.(this is just in my experience) (the people I know who the Gardai came down heavy on generally treated them badly)
Regarding the school rule about handing in your keys I them. My biggest issue with this would your insurance pay out if your car was stolen? I'd ring them and ask them this. You generally can buy blank keys for cars on eBay/etc.

kealb14

freshpopcorn wrote: »

Hi OP,
Okay you've decided to drive to school by yourself on a learner permit.
This is all in my experience. I'm slightly older than you and know people you age as well.
Driving without a fully licensed driver carries 3 penalty point and a fine of €80.
In my experience Gardai generally wave people on once their not acting the maggot, however you could meat a cross Garda.
I've also heard of people being involved in accidents driving by themselves. Insurance covered the other divers. Most people I know who are young only have third party fire and teft anyway. These people also got back driving again once they could afford a new car.(this is just in my experience) (the people I know who the Gardai came down heavy on generally treated them badly)
Regarding the school rule about handing in your keys I them. My biggest issue with this would your insurance pay out if your car was stolen? I'd ring them and ask them this. You generally can buy blank keys for cars on eBay/etc.

Thanks for your help! I don't plan on doing to much driving while on my learner, and it'll only be locally anyway and we know the local garda very well. Ya ill ring my insurance when I can and find out, thanks!

Shield

kealb14 wrote: »

Thanks for your answer. Yes, I understand where you're coming from about how someone could steal the car... but really it should be up to me whether or not I feel safe with my keys. I mean, someone could beat you up and take your car no matter where you are. Thanks for your help.

The major difference here is responsibility.

While you are quite correct in saying that you can be beaten up anywhere, the school has absolute responsibility over the safety and wellbeing of all students. Given that you are still a child (in the eyes of the Children Act), the school has a legal duty of care to protect you, even from yourself if they deem it necessary.

I think that might clear things up?

-Shield.

kealb14

Shield wrote: »

The major difference here is responsibility.

While you are quite correct in saying that you can be beaten up anywhere, the school has absolute responsibility over the safety and wellbeing of all students. Given that you are still a child (in the eyes of the Children Act), the school has a legal duty of care to protect you, even from yourself if they deem it necessary.

I think that might clear things up?

-Shield.

Yes it does, thanks a million.

Gatling

I call bs on this .

blinding

The schools should set up a mini cab service so that these cars are not left idle during the day.

It would help cover the cost of that very expensive education "we the taxpayers are gifting to you"

sobeitamen

kealb14 wrote: »

Thanks for your help! I don't plan on doing to much driving while on my learner, and it'll only be locally anyway and we know the local garda very well. Ya ill ring my insurance when I can and find out, thanks!

isn;t that grand.. " we know the local garda very well".. public roads are just that and breaking the law is just that too.

gandalf

sobeitamen wrote: »

isn;t that grand.. " we know the local garda very well".. public roads are just that and breaking the law is just that too.

Yep it is exactly that type of attitude that has ****ed the country up tbh.

nullzero

kealb14 wrote: »

Ok for Christ's sake this isn't even answering my question. No, I may not pads first time, but considering I am a very confident driver and that most people I know passed first time no bother, I'm going to presume that sometime in the next 2 years I will get my full license and will have to address this issue at school...happy?

Until you pass your test you are not allowed to drive by yourself, plus your insurance does not cover you to drive by yourself. If you were stopped by the Gardai your car would most likely be taken off of you.

MilesMorales1

If you can't drive alone, how you driving to school? Is a registered driver going with you every morning?

Optimalprimerib

kealb14 wrote: »

No I only have a provisional but I guess that's my risk to take.

Im sure this has been said, but you are questioning the legallity of them taking your keys, when legally you shouldnt have them in the first place.

If i was you i would let this slide. No point digging a hole for yourself.