Selling a car to foreigner for export - paperwork

CiniO

Now.
I though this was discussed here many times, and general consensus was that you need to hand down VRC to person buying (if he's established outside the state) and let him go. No need to inform Shannon, as they don't have procedure of unregistering vehicles and couldn't do anything with such info anyway.

But....

Few months back, in another thread, user veganrun stated the following:

I sent them an email and got a very long auto reply with lots of information. This is what it said about exporting when not due a VRT refund.

Article 12 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992 (S.I. No. 385 of 1992) provides for the licensing authority to be informed in writing by the registered owner when a vehicle is being permanently exported from the State. The current registered owner must inform the local Motor Tax Office and/or the Driver and Vehicle Computer Services Division (DVCSD), Department of Transport Tourism & Sport, Shannon, Co Clare that the vehicle is being permanently exported to a given export destination (country).

Where the ownership of the vehicle is being transferred to a person outside the jurisdiction of the State, the current registered owner is obliged to submit the Vehicle Registration Certificate (VRC) to DVCSD in Shannon and the purchaser’s name and address details must also be submitted.

Please note that the VRC should not be given to the purchaser of the vehicle either in Ireland or abroad. The DVCSD will assist the authorities in the exporting destination with vehicle details.

The current registered owner of the vehicle should be aware that their liability for the vehicle under the Road Traffic Acts continues in respect of the vehicle until the licensing authority in the export destination confirms import and registration to the DVCSD.

I'm not exactly sure from which institution he received that, but info from this is bit worrying.

First bit that Shannon need to be informed that vehicle is being exported should be no problem. Pity there isn't any automatic system for that, but I'd imagine standard letter with explanation should be sufficient.

Second bit though is very strange. Seller (in Ireland) when selling vehicle to foreign person for export, should send down VRC back to Shannon with name and address of person purchasing vehicle.
This is pretty much impossible to be done. No one in the right mind from abroad, is going to purchase vehicle if he is not handed with VRC. Without it, he can drive this vehicle to his home country, as well as he won't be able to register in in his home country, as VRC is the only document which can be used to register there.
Third part further confims that VRC should not be given to foreign buyer, and that Shannon will contact foreign autorities in relation to vehicle details. That's complete nonsense, as there is no way anyone could register a vehicle in home country without having VRC.

Yet at the end, we have 4th bit, which says that even if you do so (inform shannon that vehicle was sold for export, give them name and address of the buyer, and send them VRC), the car is still your responsibility until it's registered in foreign country by purchaser - which obviously is never going to happen if purchaser doesn't get VRC.

All this sound extremely appalling to me, leaving Irish people with no legal and safe way to sell vehicles to foreigners for export.

Fred Swanson

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Cee-Jay-Cee

I sold a car to a lad from Estonia a few years ago. He insisted on getting the VLC with the car. I was a bit dubious as he could drive the car around Ireland for weeks/months and not register it so I filled out the rear of the VLC with his name/address details and I photocopied it. I also photocopied his licence ( I insisted he give me it to photocopy or I wouldn't sell him the car) I posted these copies to Shannon the next day. I never heard a thing after that.

CiniO

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

I sold a car to a lad from Estonia a few years ago. He insisted on getting the VLC with the car. I was a bit dubious as he could drive the car around Ireland for weeks/months and not register it so I filled out the rear of the VLC with his name/address details and I photocopied it. I also photocopied his licence ( I insisted he give me it to photocopy or I wouldn't sell him the car) I posted these copies to Shannon the next day. I never heard a thing after that.

You probably did the best thing you could.

My whole point though is this:

1. You were lucky that buyer was honest, because he could clock speeding fines, M50 tolls and this would all come back at you as you were (and probably still are) registered owner.

2. Strange that Shannon insists on not handing VRC to the buyer but not offer any alternative (like possiblity to deregister vehicle and issue export certificate).
That way you will either hand over VRC against what they are saying and take the risk, or not hand VRC and not sell a car, as no buyer would be stupid enough to buy a car without a required document.

So there is no legal and safe way to sell vehicle to foreigner for export in Ireland.

Fred Swanson

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TireeTerror

What is this VRC thing you need? I bought a vehicle here in Ireland and took it to Scotland and registered it there with only the log book. I didnt inform anyone in Ireland, in fact I phoned Shannon after reading online that I would have to and they said it had to have an export certificate done etc. So I didnt bother with all of that nonsense. I simply drove it to Scotland and then informed the DVLA who asked me to fill in a form for import purposes. It didnt have an NCT as it had expired and the DVLA say I would need an MOT test done, but then I pointed out it was going to my parents house on an island which is MOT exempt and the whole process was straight forward and didnt cost me 1p.

Fred Swanson

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CiniO

Actually on the thing itself it says: Registration Certificate (Teastas Cláraithe).
On page 3 it's menioned as: Certificate of Registration and Licensing (Teastas Cláraithe agus Ceadúnúcháin).

And as Fred said people call it Logbook, Vehicle registration Certificate, Vehicle Licensing Certificate, etc....

Anyway that's the thing I mentioned as VRC.

CiniO

TireeTerror wrote: »

What is this VRC thing you need? I bought a vehicle here in Ireland and took it to Scotland and registered it there with only the log book. I didnt inform anyone in Ireland, in fact I phoned Shannon after reading online that I would have to and they said it had to have an export certificate done etc. So I didnt bother with all of that nonsense. I simply drove it to Scotland and then informed the DVLA who asked me to fill in a form for import purposes. It didnt have an NCT as it had expired and the DVLA say I would need an MOT test done, but then I pointed out it was going to my parents house on an island which is MOT exempt and the whole process was straight forward and didnt cost me 1p.

What export certificate?
They seem to say different thing to everyone.

Seweryn

CiniO wrote: »

What export certificate?
They seem to say different thing to everyone.

Export certificate? Does such a thing exists here?

Whatever Shannon says, due to lack of any procedures, the only sensible option is to hand over VRC to the buyer. Otherwise he can't drive home without the registration document in hand, and secondly he will not be able to register the car in his own country.

joujoujou

The only other option I'd imagine is if the new owner is able to wait until his own VLC arrive to address of his choice.

CiniO

So bit more info now:

I was trying to contact Departement of Transport in Shannon (in relation to other query) but their automatic email response includes plenty of info including pretty much what I quoted in original post:

Vehicle Exports.

Vehicles which qualify for a VRT refund

Legislation introduced in 2013 provides for the refund of residual VRT where a vehicle is permanently exported from the State (S.I. No 110 of 2013 – Finance Act 2012). The refund is limited to passenger vehicles (EU category M1) that are registered in the State and on which VRT has been paid. Vehicles are subject to a pre-export inspection and repayment of VRT is made by the Revenue Commissioners based on proof of import and registration in the destination jurisdiction. Details are available on the website at www.revenue.ie or telephone 047-62100.

Vehicles which are not concerned with a refund of VRT

Article 12 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992 (S.I. No. 385 of 1992) provides for the licensing authority to be informed in writing by the registered owner when a vehicle is being permanently exported from the State. The current registered owner must inform the local Motor Tax Office and/or the Driver and Vehicle Computer Services Division (DVCSD), Department of Transport Tourism & Sport, Shannon, Co Clare that the vehicle is being permanently exported to a given export destination (country).

Where the ownership of the vehicle is being transferred to a person outside the jurisdiction of the State, the current registered owner is obliged to submit the Vehicle Registration Certificate (VRC) to DVCSD in Shannon and the purchaser’s name and address details must also be submitted.

Please note that the VRC should not be given to the purchaser of the vehicle either in Ireland or abroad. The DVCSD will assist the authorities in the exporting destination with vehicle details.

The current registered owner of the vehicle should be aware that their liability for the vehicle under the Road Traffic Acts continues in respect of the vehicle until the licensing authority in the export destination confirms import and registration to the DVCSD.

As mentioned above in the thread, bolded part is complete bull$h1t, as it's impossible to export vehicle without registration cert, so no one in the right mind from abroad would buy a car in Ireland without taking reg cert (loogbook, vrc - whatever you want to name it) with them.

However if you ring their (dep of transport) phone line 0818 411 412, there is automated information system, and if you go through the menus using your phone keypad, make it to vehicle export information, it says clearly that you should hand down registration certificate to foreign buyer, and send it's copy together with buyer details to Shannon to inform them about export.
This makes hell lot more of sense.

Interesting thing though is that Department of Transport provides conflicting information in this regards within their email responses, and their phone responses.
Also it's bit strange no official information in regards this is available anywhere on departement or citizens information websites or any motortax offices.

CiniO

So a little update now.

As motortax.ie website has been updated, it now contains correct info in regards selling vehicle for export.

It can be found through menu in "Change of Vehicle Details / Status" - "Vehicle Export" - "Export Notification"

Here's a quote from there:

You must tell your local Motor Tax Office, or this office, that the vehicle is being permanently exported to a given export destination (country).

Where the ownership of the vehicle is being changed to a person outside the jurisdiction of the State, you must send us a copy of the Vehicle Registration Certificate (VRC) with the buyers name and address details also included.


You must give the original VRC to the buyer of the vehicle either in Ireland or abroad. We will help the authorities in the exporting destination with any queries they may have. The vehicle will only be recorded as exported on the computer record once we have received confirmation from the country of export that the vehicle is registered in that country.

Fred Swanson

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la ultima guagua

If VRT is not being reclaimed then perhaps its safer to do the process in two steps

(i) Car registration is transferred to the new owner with and address in RoI - even if its the address of the vendor - in the normal way

(ii) New owner exports the darned thing and is responsible for any consequences

What do organised mainland EU states do ?

Fred Swanson

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Seweryn

la ultima guagua wrote: »

If VRT is not being reclaimed then perhaps its safer to do the process in two steps

(i) Car registration is transferred to the new owner with and address in RoI - even if its the address of the vendor - in the normal way

So, the potential foreign buyer comes in for a weekend, makes a deal and... goes back for a week or two to his own country, and then back when the VR Document arrives at the existing owner's address... Really?

la ultima guagua wrote: »

What do organised mainland EU states do ?

Other Countries have reasonable procedures (sometimes you have to visit a local VR Office), but you always get the registration documents when buying a car and you drive the car home...

la ultima guagua

Seweryn wrote: »

So, the potential foreign buyer comes in for a weekend, makes a deal and... goes back for a week or two to his own country, and then back when the VR Document arrives at the existing owner's address... Really?....

Yup !

Make it a condition of sale

If would-be buyer doesnt like it then he shouldnt bother trying to buy it

Rule 1 for vendor : CMA

If you followed the thread about the apparently crash written off car that the writing off insurance Co let back into the retail market its clear that there are far to many gaps in regulations relating to motors. Every time that the gaps line up the present owner ends up being shafted. :mad:

Seweryn

la ultima guagua wrote: »

Yup !

Make it a condition of sale

I would go further and make sure the buyer lives under his own address (so he buys or rent a house prior to buying my car) as I would not want to get the tax bill every year to be sent to my address. There is feck all guarantee the overseas authorities will notify Shannon regarding the car registration in the buyer's county. They may not have such procedures in place.

CiniO

la ultima guagua wrote: »

Yup !

Make it a condition of sale

If would-be buyer doesnt like it then he shouldnt bother trying to buy it

Rule 1 for vendor : CMA

If you followed the thread about the apparently crash written off car that the writing off insurance Co let back into the retail market its clear that there are far to many gaps in regulations relating to motors. Every time that the gaps line up the present owner ends up being shafted. :mad:

I think you are forgetting that currently second hand car market in Ireland, is typical buyers market.
Plenty of cars for sale, and not many potential buyers, so imposing some ridiculous conditions on sale for foreign buyers would be silly.

I'd be pleased if foreign buyer came to buy my car, and I'd be absolutely happy to hand down VRC to him if only he was willing to buy my car.
As no Irish buyers seems to want it.

Fred Swanson

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la ultima guagua

Dunno about that in this case, CiniO.

We are talking no VRT reclaimable (so probably old-ish) and private sale ( so cheap-ish ) so I see such cars as either fast approaching or in Bangernomics category.

Generally if such cars dont sell then the vendor is looking for to much.

CiniO

la ultima guagua wrote: »

Dunno about that in this case, CiniO.

We are talking no VRT reclaimable (so probably old-ish) and private sale ( so cheap-ish ) so I see such cars as either fast approaching or in Bangernomics category.

Generally if such cars dont sell then the vendor is looking for to much.

Why VRT no reclaimable?
Process of selling car to foreign buyer is the same no matter if you want reclaim VRT or not. You still have to give them VRC.

Only difference is that if you want to reclaim VRT you'd need to present car for export examination before sale, and make arrangement with buyer so he would send you a proof that car was registered abroad or exported outside EU.

la ultima guagua

CiniO wrote: »

Why VRT no reclaimable?.....

Post 15 stipulation.

OTOH if VRT is reclaimable then that raises the question of what triggers the refund from Revenue ? If its Revenue getting confirmation from abroad that car has been reged then that raises the stakes :cool:

Rather you then me

Wonder why the German (a la Fred ) process cannot be applied here ?

Any views as to how accurate the cars reexported stats are ? :D:D

CJhaughey

This is going to be thrown into focus now with the VRT regime coming under pressure from Europe due to its protective nature, they have already been forced to cease the process of forcing lease/hire vehicles to pay VRT. They have reduced the cost of the inspection from 500 to 100.

from Revenue site:
After 1 January 2016, interest will also be repaid on top of the repayable amount. The interest will be calculated at the time of the approval of the export repayment claim.

There is a €100 administration charge payable that is deducted from the amount of VRT repayable.

The NCTS website has information on their charge for the examination of the car and documentation.

CiniO

la ultima guagua wrote: »

Post 15 stipulation.

Sorry, missed that.
But still as I said, that doesn't make any difference in procedure of selling to foreign person for export.

OTOH if VRT is reclaimable then that raises the question of what triggers the refund from Revenue ? If its Revenue getting confirmation from abroad that car has been reged then that raises the stakes :cool:

No, revenue doesn't need direct confirmation from abroad that car has been registered there (i.e info sent by foreign registration office).

VRT refund can be only paid to last registered owner, and owner needs to first bring car for export examination to NCT centre before car leaves Ireland, and then send proof that car was registered abroad (f.e. copy of foreign registration cert).

Foreign buyer who is not established in Ireland, is not able to claim VRT refund.

Rather you then me

Wonder why the German (a la Fred ) process cannot be applied here ?

In ideal world, is should be applied everywhere.
But many countries don't really have such good procedures as those in Germany.

Any views as to how accurate the cars reexported stats are ? :D:D

Do you have any stats?

CiniO

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Given the sh1te administration in some of the countries in the far south-east of the EU that may never actually happen.

I can't believe they could be any worse than in Ireland?

dr.fuzzenstein

Can anyone tell me about scrapping a car abroad?
It seems I can only declare a car scrapped if I show a cert from a registered car dismantlers. Since my car is now in Germany (well, van actually, its a transit connect), I can't do that.
There is no way I can register the car here, since it would have to go through the TÜV, and it's just not worth it, needs new sills and many other parts.

CiniO

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Can anyone tell me about scrapping a car abroad?
It seems I can only declare a car scrapped if I show a cert from a registered car dismantlers. Since my car is now in Germany (well, van actually, its a transit connect), I can't do that.
There is no way I can register the car here, since it would have to go through the TÜV, and it's just not worth it, needs new sills and many other parts.

That seems to be the case that you can't do it, as you won't be able to show document from Irish registered car dismantler once you scrap it in Germany.
I might be wrong about that though.


However I fail to see why you want to do it.
There's no advantage for you in officially declaring car as scrapped with Irish authorities, as there are no consequences of not doing so.

Just scrap the van or sell it to some polish lads for parts or something.

Fred Swanson

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I had a call about a bike I'm selling from a guy from eastern Europe who lives in Dungannon,NI.

After reading this thread I'm thinking about just refusing to sell to him? Seems more hassle than it's worth. Has anything changed since this original discussion or is the process still as dodgy as it sounds?

Basically I could be on the hook for this vehicle for life if he doesn't register it? The fact it can do 160mph+ I don't want to be on the hook for speeding tickets. What you guys reckon?

Fred Swanson

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