Hiring Practices in Taxpayer funded Quangos and Schools

cars14

I have been looking for work and have realised the taxpayer funds most quangos eg an Taisce and schools (SNAs etc) but the taxpayer has no say in the secretive hiring practices.
• There are no controls to stop these organisations hiring their friends. There is no transparency in the hiring process. There is no accountability. It’s a license for cronyism.
• The pay is better than the private sector for doing the same job e.g an taisce green schools pay for those teaching preschool children about the environment is way better than preschool teachers make
• I have almost never seen quango jobs e.g. an taisce, the Equality Authority etc even advertise jobs on normal job website eg Irishjobs.ie
• When u hear of someone getting a job in a quango they always seem to have a family member working in something connected.
• The taxpayer/government pays up to one billion a year for quangos and billions more for Education sector and is not involved in the hiring process for these organisations.
• I am pissed off that I applied for everyone SNA role on the East Coast and didn’t get a single interview despite having lots of experience with Special Needs Children as I used to do Respite Care for the Special Needs Children, have a healthcare Degree, work experience in a school, Special Needs Course done, Fluent in Irish. As in quangos, the Department claims to have no involvement in the hiring process despite funding the jobs. What is to stop the Boards of Management hiring their friends as the relevant Government Department never involves itself in the hiring process?

Gongoozler

Yeah you can't get a job so it's everybody else's fault.

They do advertise - on publicjob.ie. And the thing about public sector is there are strict controls over hiring, so you have to get approval for the position, then have to go through redeployment. So you can blame the government for that, rather than the actual places that won't hire you.

Or, ya know, keep whinging.

cars14

Gongoozler; Didn't u read what I said. The government has no involvement in the hiring process in Quangos or schools SNAs. It pays the employees but the quangos hire as they please with nobody to answer to.

darkpagandeath

Gongoozler wrote: »

Yeah you can't get a job so it's everybody else's fault.

They do advertise - on publicjob.ie. And the thing about public sector is there are strict controls over hiring, so you have to get approval for the position, then have to go through redeployment. So you can blame the government for that, rather than the actual places that won't hire you.

Or, ya know, keep whinging.

Nope, I think one is thinking of the guidelines and best practice that hardly ever happen.

Gongoozler

cars14 wrote: »

Gongoozler; Didn't u read what I said. The government has no involvement in the hiring process in Quangos or schools SNAs. It pays the employees but the quangos hire as they please with nobody to answer to.

Yes they do, dper give the go ahead for any position to fill.

I've worked in 3 different ones, I do know what I'm talking about.

cars14

darkpagandeath; u are right.Best practices aren't that important. Not in my local council where u couldn't drink the water for 10 years, or the Department of Finance where nobody noticed anything funny about banking practices during the boom, tens of thousands of houses build in flood plains etc etc etc. Nobody notices anything and nobody is responsible. Same about hiring practices. The quangos/schools get the money for paying people from the government but the government doesn't get involved in hiring process.

cars14

Gongoozler; the government isn't involved in the hiring process in quangos or for SNAs. They just pay the money after agreeing to create the position and pay the money. The Board of Management can hire anyone they prefer (people they know and own friends) as can quangos as there is no oversight.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

What baloney. You didn't get a job so there is nepotism at play. The selection process in schools is very strict and, in my experience, is fair.
There are checks and balances.

Sour grapes.

cars14

I know of cases of nepotism as I did Jobbridge in the Public Sector and saw it up front. Eg. lab job in lab with hiring freeze in 2013, daughter of guy in lab got job, I was not on hospital website and never saw job advertised. Also, I lived in Mid West and saw it loads as I knew who was related to each other.

I have assisted in Respite Care for Special Needs Children for 5 years, have HealthCare Degree so understand Medication administration, fluent in Irish, did the Special Needs course and got work experience in a school. I applied for pretty much every SNA role on the East Coast and didn't get one interview in an English speaking school. The Department of Education told me the Board of Management e.g. Principal and 2 others do the hiring and that they have no involvement. So, I can't see what is to stop the people doing the hiring getting someone they know/friend a job.

darkpagandeath

Henrik Scrawny Self-government wrote: »

What baloney. You didn't get a job so there is nepotism at play. The selection process in schools is very strict and, in my experience, is fair.
There are checks and balances.

Sour grapes.

Calling foul on that one. See all the teachers jobs and staff on jobbridge ?

cars14

I know of cases of nepotism as I did Jobbridge in the Public Sector and saw it up front. Eg. lab job in lab with hiring freeze in 2013, daughter of guy in lab got job, I was not on hospital website and never saw job advertised. Also, I lived in Mid West and saw it loads as I knew who was related to each other.

I have assisted in Respite Care for Special Needs Children for 5 years, have HealthCare Degree so understand Medication administration, fluent in Irish, did the Special Needs course and got work experience in a school. I applied for pretty much every SNA role on the East Coast and didn't get one interview in an English speaking school. The Department of Education told me the Board of Management e.g. Principal and 2 others do the hiring and that they have no involvement. So, I can't see what there is to stop the people doing the hiring giving someone they know/friend a job.

cars14

I did the Jobbridge in a Public Hospital.

cars14

Srameen; u said there are checks and balances. What checks and balances are there in the hiring process for the hiring of SNAs?

cars14

Srameen; u said there are checks and balances.
What checks and balances are there in the hiring of SNAs?

cars14

cars14 wrote: »

I did the Jobbridge in a Public Hospital.

Are you the person who said that its because you manager is giving you bad references as the reason your not getting a job? Plus being a SNA is different that working in a care situation and maybe you don't have the exact qualification they want for the job, sound to me it more like you are trying to change careers.

The_Valeyard

Well, someone got a rejection letter today....

cars14

My Manager gave me a bad reference to a contracting company despite my never making a mistake all year. I am exploring other career options as I have other skills.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

cars14 wrote: »

My Manager gave me a bad reference to a contracting company despite my never making a mistake all year. I am exploring other career options as I have other skills.

But, the skills you listed are not those for an SNA. Useful yes but not the primary competencies.

My daughter sat on an interview panel for an SNA position only last week. None of the interviewers knew any of the interviewees or their families. They had a preset list of competencies for selection for interview and a marking system during the interview.

Sonics2k

Crazy as it sounds, maybe, just maybe, you're not qualified enough for a position?

One eyed Jack

cars14 wrote: »

When u hear of someone getting a job in a quango they always seem to have a family member working in something connected.

cars14 wrote: »

Gongoozler; Didn't u read what I said.

cars14 wrote: »

darkpagandeath; u are right.

cars14 wrote: »

I applied for pretty much every SNA role on the East Coast and didn't get one interview in an English speaking school.

Constructive criticism OP, but if I saw careless and lazy spelling like the above, I wouldn't be inclined to recommend you be hired either unfortunately.

cars14 wrote: »

The Department of Education told me the Board of Management e.g. Principal and 2 others do the hiring and that they have no involvement. So, I can't see what is to stop the people doing the hiring getting someone they know/friend a job.

The fact that all potential candidates being interviewed have to pass an interview marking level of at least 75% for starters.

The_Valeyard

cars14 wrote: »

I know of cases of nepotism as I did Jobbridge in the Public Sector and saw it up front. Eg. lab job in lab with hiring freeze in 2013, daughter of guy in lab got job, I was not on hospital website and never saw job advertised. Also, I lived in Mid West and saw it loads as I knew who was related to each other.

I have assisted in Respite Care for Special Needs Children for 5 years, have HealthCare Degree so understand Medication administration, fluent in Irish, did the Special Needs course and got work experience in a school. I applied for pretty much every SNA role on the East Coast and didn't get one interview in an English speaking school. The Department of Education told me the Board of Management e.g. Principal and 2 others do the hiring and that they have no involvement. So, I can't see what there is to stop the people doing the hiring giving someone they know/friend a job.

Schools are generally very independent from the department in how they run and who they hire. Dept may set course syllabus, etc but schools implement their own rules and ethos. Pretty sure when hiring the principal is only the Secretary of the board and a non voting member, some places can have up to between 5-7 board members carrying out interviews. Its difficult around the country to get into schools because of huge numbers of qualified teachers and sna's. Could simply be others have more experience than you in the education sector.

goose2005

Sonics2k wrote: »

Crazy as it sounds, maybe, just maybe, you're not qualified enough for a position?

He's probably adequately qualified. The real problem is that budget cuts mean that there are few SNA roles available. Many SNAs are being let go or having their hours cut, and someone with qualifications but without actual experience of working as an SNA will struggle.

• The pay is better than the private sector for doing the same job e.g an taisce green schools pay for those teaching preschool children about the environment is way better than preschool teachers make

Those aren't the same job at all.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Schools are generally very independent from the department in how they run and who they hire. Dept may set course syllabus, etc but schools implement their own rules and ethos. Pretty sure when hiring the principal is only the Secretary of the board and a non voting member, some places can have up to between 5-7 board members carrying out interviews. Its difficult around the country to get into schools because of huge numbers of qualified teachers and sna's. Could simply be others have more experience than you in the education sector.

Incorrect for Primary schools. The principal is rarely the sec of the board of management. He certainly is an active player in the interview process. Generally 3 people interview; all mark the candidates. It's not really a vote.

OP. Are you aware that in some areas there is a panel of SNAs whose experience and length of service merits it? Selection comes first from the panel.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

goose2005 wrote: »

He's probably adequately qualified. The real problem is that budget cuts mean that there are few SNA roles available. Many SNAs are being let go or having their hours cut, and someone with qualifications but without actual experience of working as an SNA will struggle.

Those aren't the same job at all.

SNA numbers and hours have actually been increased this year. The OP is simply not as qualified as they would like to think.

steddyeddy

Guys you really can't be that naive to think nepotism doesn't feature strongly in public bodies in Ireland.

kupus

Course it doesn't eddy, this is not fifties Ireland. The best person always gets the job now.
Humph, humph lol

steddyeddy

kupus wrote: »

Course it doesn't eddy, this is not fifties Ireland. The best person always gets the job now.
Humph, humph lol

The best man for the job ha ha that's a good one.

evolving_doors

Henrik Scrawny Self-government wrote: »

SNA numbers and hours have actually been increased this year. The OP is simply not as qualified as they would like to think.

where did you hear that?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Gebgbegb wrote: »

where did you hear that?

A. It was announced by the Department back in June I think. 610 extra posts. B. I've seen it in practice.

evolving_doors

Just from my own experience I know that some schools get hundreds of applications for SNA jobs. An experienced SNA was let go from our school, so the Op is competing against this type of person (along with teachers applying for SNA positions).
Who knows Op maybe it was through nepotism someone got the job ahead of you, but you can't possibly know everyone's experience or credentials who applied.
What is the pre-requisite qualification to be an SNA anyway?

evolving_doors

Henrik Scrawny Self-government wrote: »

A. It was announced by the Department back in June I think. 610 extra posts. B. I've seen it in practice.

Are those 'extra posts' not just a combination of pervious cutbacks and a rising population of students. Bare in mind there are many SNA on half hours?

EazyD

Sure if they can hire the likes of John Tierney to their newest quango (a man who lost countless millions in his last position on DCC) it's not exactly a revelation to find that nepotism is alive and well in this country.

steddyeddy

I'll confess I have no experience of SNAs. I do have experience in dealing with public bodies such as hospitals, universities and one or two other public bodies such as department of education. First of all there's a guy working in a lab in a certain hospital who got the job on recommendation of his aunt working there. Not only is he not the best man but requires a lot more training than the other candidates to bring him up to their level.

Two people I taught science to got temporary jobs in the department of social protection because their uncle worked there. They were the most unsocial lazy bastards in the class.

One guy in botany in UCD failed the exams several times (my lecturer tried to get him expelled but someone in UCD's admin prevented it) and when he got his degree (a 2.2) he was appointed to a fairly stable job in the department of education. He actually played a part in designing the leaving cert biology syllabus in case you're wondering why it's so easy.

I was in a hospital waiting room a while ago when a receptionist told the girl she was speaking to that "her mother got her the job". Two old ladies in the room commented how terrible it was that she got the job that way. The amount of sub par people working in this country because of who their family are is staggering.

conorhal

I bumped into an old collegue who happens to be a Labour party fixer in the pub at lunchtime (hey we were there for the food!).
He was there interviewing a prospective principle for the local school, I'm just surprised he wasn't stringing out the process for another few months so that Aodhan O'Riordan will have a job to go back to when he looses his seat.

Then again unlike the rest of us teachers have a garenteed job to go back to, so perhaps he'd found 'the right man for the job anyway ' *wink*wink*

There is a stunning amount of political 'entryism' and cronyism that goes on in areas you'd never imagine that there were jobs for the boys available.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Are those 'extra posts' not just a combination of pervious cutbacks and a rising population of students. Bare in mind there are many SNA on half hours?

Not around here. This rural area got 3 new fulltime SNA positions this Summer in 2 schools.

Thinkingaboutit

Publicjobs.ie will have them, nearly always. Some appear and disappear a bit too quickly given the sort of form an applicant needs to fill. Pull, or whatever the term is, applies in places, even if the motions are gone through.

KilOit

Work in a hospital. ALL the 20 or so new clerical positions that have been created have relatives that work in upper management,
these are people that very young and have no experience, some are still in school and getting HSE jobs

steddyeddy

Thinkingaboutit wrote: »

Publicjobs.ie will have them, nearly always. Some appear and disappear a bit too quickly given the sort of form an applicant needs to fill. Pull, or whatever the term is, applies in places, even if the motions are gone through.

The thing is there are a lot of public jobs that are advertised only because they have to be advertised by law. A lot of the time the job is already awarded to someone.

steddyeddy

KilOit wrote: »

Work in a hospital. ALL the 20 or so new clerical positions that have been created have relatives that work in upper management,
these are people that very young and have no experience, some are still in school and getting HSE jobs

Yea exactly my experience. I used to deal with the hospital biochemistry jobs and some of the people who were awarded jobs defied belief. Usually the jobs were administrative not technical but in a hospital this is important. I've seen patients forms with "Miss Gerry Smith" and "Mr. Susan Edwards" (both example names.

Now this sort of cosy inbred system of hiring might be ok in some departments (I can't think of many TBH) but how many administrative errors in Irish hospitals resulted in a delay in diagnosis?

steddyeddy

Gongoozler wrote: »

Yeah you can't get a job so it's everybody else's fault.

They do advertise - on publicjob.ie. And the thing about public sector is there are strict controls over hiring, so you have to get approval for the position, then have to go through redeployment. So you can blame the government for that, rather than the actual places that won't hire you.

Or, ya know, keep whinging.

That is bullcrap. You're telling me nepotism doesn't play a part in public sector hiring?

Gongoozler

steddyeddy wrote: »

That is bullcrap. You're telling me nepotism doesn't play a part in public sector hiring?

No more than it does in private sector. Less I'd imagine.

But then everything everybody has to say here is anecdotal so what's the point in arguing. my experience has been that the system is fair. Yours is (though all through 3rd parties) that it isn't fair. I agree to disagree.

steddyeddy

Gongoozler wrote: »

No more than it does in private sector. Less I'd imagine.

But then everything everybody has to say here is anecdotal so what's the point in arguing. my experience has been that the system is fair. Yours is (though all through 3rd parties) that it isn't fair. I agree to disagree.

Actually I witnessed hiring policies in the HSE first hand. We'll agree to disagree because I don't find it credible that you're unaware of nepotism in public bodies.

One eyed Jack

steddyeddy wrote: »

That is bullcrap. You're telling me nepotism doesn't play a part in public sector hiring?

Nepotism isn't nearly or necessarily as rife as you're making out though eddy. At the end of the day, of course people will let other people know about jobs and even try and give them any help they can to get into the jobs, but if there are certain qualifying criteria that have to be met is the first barrier to institutional nepotism, and then the person has to pass an interview panel, and even then they're competing with other equally qualified candidates who may score higher in interviews.

With regard to nepotism in any field really, whether it be in the public or private sector, well, why shouldn't anyone try and help their friends and relatives to gain employment? They're putting their own reputation on the line when they recommend someone should be hired, so if that person turns out to be an incompetent dullard, the responsibility for hiring that person will fall back on the person who recommended them and damage their reputation.

Would you not use your own network of contacts to help someone up the ladder? Me personally, I do it all the time. I haven't been let down yet, because I wouldn't recommend someone if I thought they were unsuitable for a position.

Gongoozler

Don't care if you believe me or not. in all the time I've been working in the public sector, I've not witnessed or even heard of anything untoward like that. If anything there's too much bloody red tape when you're trying to get anything done.

Nermal

KilOit wrote: »

Work in a hospital. ALL the 20 or so new clerical positions that have been created have relatives that work in upper management,
these are people that very young and have no experience, some are still in school and getting HSE jobs

Seems to depend on level to a certain extent. Low level appointments like this, just get stuffed with relatives & friends. Really high level ones are stuffed with political appointees. Is there really that much nepotism at mid-level?

steddyeddy

Gongoozler wrote: »

Don't care if you believe me or not. in all the time I've been working in the public sector, I've not witnessed or even heard of anything untoward like that. If anything there's too much bloody red tape when you're trying to get anything done.

It's not that I don't believe you. I just seen the contrary first hand.

steddyeddy

Nermal wrote: »

Seems to depend on level to a certain extent. Low level appointments like this, just get stuffed with relatives & friends. Really high level ones are stuffed with political appointees. Is there really that much nepotism at mid-level?

Well I can only speak directly about the HSE but sometimes a position at mid level becomes available and a lower level employee is appointed. Then the job is advertised.

steddyeddy

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Nepotism isn't nearly or necessarily as rife as you're making out though eddy. At the end of the day, of course people will let other people know about jobs and even try and give them any help they can to get into the jobs, but if there are certain qualifying criteria that have to be met is the first barrier to institutional nepotism, and then the person has to pass an interview panel, and even then they're competing with other equally qualified candidates who may score higher in interviews.

With regard to nepotism in any field really, whether it be in the public or private sector, well, why shouldn't anyone try and help their friends and relatives to gain employment? They're putting their own reputation on the line when they recommend someone should be hired, so if that person turns out to be an incompetent dullard, the responsibility for hiring that person will fall back on the person who recommended them and damage their reputation.

Would you not use your own network of contacts to help someone up the ladder? Me personally, I do it all the time. I haven't been let down yet, because I wouldn't recommend someone if I thought they were unsuitable for a position.

Jack I'm at work so I'll reply to all of your points when I'm back but could you clarify your position? You say nepotism isn't rife and then you ask would I engage in it myself through appointment of family and friends. What's your views on nepotism? Right or wrong?

ToddyDoody

My applications for a number of plumb positions with these organisations were turned down so I would say yes a review is in order.

steddyeddy

ToddyDoody wrote: »

My applications for a number of plumb positions with these organisations were turned down so I would say yes a review is in order.

Well that isn't evidence of nepotism IMHO. Evidence of nepotism is when a low level HSE position is advertised on publicjobs despite it having been awarded to a work-shy nephew of one of the management.

ToddyDoody

steddyeddy wrote: »

awarded to a work-shy nephew of one of the management.

Well who else is going to employ him?