Odd deductions from deposit by landlady

DhalsimHibiki

Hey,

I just moved out of an apartment after living there for 2 years and 3 months. I ended the lease 3 months into a renewed 12 month lease.

After moving out the landlady deducted over 900 euro from my 1050 deposit for repairs and cleaning. Among other things she charged 300 euro for a professional cleaner (1 bedroom apartment) and 250 euro for an extractor fan above the oven. She claims that she does me a favour by not charging me with the 600€ that were associated with re-letting the apartment.

My question: can she just hire a cleaner that is clearly too expensive? Can she charge me to replace every light bulb in the apartment, I assume this falls into the category "wear and tear". Also, can she charge me for the extractor fan which simply stopped working? I can't even imagine how this could even break by accident as it is simply stopped extracting air.

Also, could she really pin the cost of having the apartment re-let on me because I ended the lease early? I will start an inquiry with PRTB but I wanted to hear from any experiences. Honestly I think I am being cheated here but if she could really have me pay for re-letting the apartment then I would not pursue the issue further as I might end up paying her money rather than receiving the deposit.

Any responses would be appreciated.

Cheers

theteal

Extractor fan - no. Cleaning - yes but make sure you see the receipt, if no receipt then it's a no. Cost of re-leting - yes, you broke the lease early, she can pursue for remainder of contract.

zl1whqvjs75cdy

theteal wrote: »

Extractor fan - no. Cleaning - yes but make sure you see the receipt, if no receipt then it's a no. Cost of re-leting - yes, you broke the lease early, she can pursue for remainder of contract.

This true if you re assign the lease? I ask cause I will probably have to do it in a couple of months.

MarkAnthony

Register a complaint with the PRTB and let them sort it all out.

DhalsimHibiki

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Register a complaint with the PRTB and let them sort it all out.

As mentioned here before she can charge me for re-letting the apartment as I broke the lease. She claims that this cost is 600 euro so I am afraid that if I start an inquiry I might still get the short end of the stick as the money I save on ridiculous repair costs might be balanced out by the cost of re-letting the apartment.

newacc2015

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Register a complaint with the PRTB and let them sort it all out.

I would use PRTB as last resort. It might be 12 months before the PRTB consider dealing with the case.

OP ask for receipts for cleaning. If she can provide a receipt. You cant bill for your own cleaning. I would ask how many people priced the job. Hassle.com is €12 an hour for a professional.

If you damaged the extractor fan, you are liable. But you take into account the age. Eg if you destroyed a 10 year old fridge, you are liable for a new fridge. But not 100%, as you werent going to get much longer for it.

I would tell the landlord. You want to work it out between yourself. Make it pretty clear, that if you go to the PRTB. She is going to get ****ed over,as they always side with tenants on issues like this

Put everything in writing eg email or text. A phonecall is useless and illegal to record in Ireland

Tigger

newacc2015 wrote: »

Put everything in writing eg email or text. A phonecall is useless and illegal to record in Ireland

under which statute?
my reading is that as long as one party is aware the call is being recorded its fine

TheChizler

Get receipts for costs of reletting as well, I'm not sure of the price of an ad on Daft but €600 for that and PRTB registration seems like a lot. She can only take rent from the deposit as long as she's making a reasonable attempt to fill the vacancy.

newacc2015

Tigger wrote: »

under which statute?
my reading is that as long as one party is aware the call is being recorded its fine

It's fine if there is consent. But who is going to consent in this circumstance? It's better to put everything in writing

ted1

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

Hey,

I just moved out of an apartment after living there for 2 years and 3 months. I ended the lease 3 months into a renewed 12 month lease.

After moving out the landlady deducted over 900 euro from my 1050 deposit for repairs and cleaning. Among other things she charged 300 euro for a professional cleaner (1 bedroom apartment) and 250 euro for an extractor fan above the oven. She claims that she does me a favour by not charging me with the 600€ that were associated with re-letting the apartment.

My question: can she just hire a cleaner that is clearly too expensive? Can she charge me to replace every light bulb in the apartment, I assume this falls into the category "wear and tear". Also, can she charge me for the extractor fan which simply stopped working? I can't even imagine how this could even break by accident as it is simply stopped extracting air.

Also, could she really pin the cost of having the apartment re-let on me because I ended the lease early? I will start an inquiry with PRTB but I wanted to hear from any experiences. Honestly I think I am being cheated here but if she could really have me pay for re-letting the apartment then I would not pursue the issue further as I might end up paying her money rather than receiving the deposit.

Any responses would be appreciated.

Cheers

Lamps are covered by wear and tear, although in fairness you should have replaced them as they blew. With regards cleaning, did she provide receipts? How filthy is the place, professionals cleaners will do a good once off clean for 100 euro in 3 hours.

gaius c

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

As mentioned here before she can charge me for re-letting the apartment as I broke the lease. She claims that this cost is 600 euro so I am afraid that if I start an inquiry I might still get the short end of the stick as the money I save on ridiculous repair costs might be balanced out by the cost of re-letting the apartment.

How long was the apartment vacant after you left?

MarkAnthony

Tigger wrote: »

under which statute?
my reading is that as long as one party is aware the call is being recorded its fine

newacc2015 wrote: »

It's fine if there is consent. But who is going to consent in this circumstance? It's better to put everything in writing

Very long thread in legal discussions on this if you're interested. Illegal or not it's useless from an evidentiary standpoint (usually).

Pac2015

Tigger wrote: »

under which statute?
my reading is that as long as one party is aware the call is being recorded its fine

You need everything in writing as back up unless you are going to record a call.
My LL is a nightmare and she will say one thing on the phone then do another and wont fix one single thing in the house we rent from her she is a law onto herself so we always put everything in writing.

Pac2015

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

Hey,

I just moved out of an apartment after living there for 2 years and 3 months. I ended the lease 3 months into a renewed 12 month lease.

After moving out the landlady deducted over 900 euro from my 1050 deposit for repairs and cleaning. Among other things she charged 300 euro for a professional cleaner (1 bedroom apartment) and 250 euro for an extractor fan above the oven. She claims that she does me a favour by not charging me with the 600€ that were associated with re-letting the apartment.

My question: can she just hire a cleaner that is clearly too expensive? Can she charge me to replace every light bulb in the apartment, I assume this falls into the category "wear and tear". Also, can she charge me for the extractor fan which simply stopped working? I can't even imagine how this could even break by accident as it is simply stopped extracting air.

Also, could she really pin the cost of having the apartment re-let on me because I ended the lease early? I will start an inquiry with PRTB but I wanted to hear from any experiences. Honestly I think I am being cheated here but if she could really have me pay for re-letting the apartment then I would not pursue the issue further as I might end up paying her money rather than receiving the deposit.

Any responses would be appreciated.

Cheers

So you paid her 1050 deposit and she gave you back 150 stating the balance of 900 was for repairs & cleaning is that correct?
€ 300 seem slightly high for a cleaner but if there was 2 cleaners doing the apartment for 4 hours then that would be the price.
I had to get 2 x cleaners into an apartment I owned after some tenants wrecked it and had them there for 4 hours they cleaned everything right down to the fridge and microwave and it cost €250 I think but do ask for receipts / invoices to reflect this.

Wear and tear like new bulbs etc should be at the expense of the LL so I would query that, you are liable for the € 600 for breaking the lease that is correct but where is she getting the € 600 figure from what is this made up of?

€ 250.00 is too expensive for an extractor fan chances are she is also including labour to have it fitted.
If it simply stopped extracting air then its a part needed not a new one so point this out to her.
Again get everything in writing and go to the PRTB in my opinion you are being ripped off and I am a landlord myself.

DhalsimHibiki

Hey guys,

thanks a lot for all the information. I wrote up an email in response to her calculations. Could you please take a quick look and let me know what you think? The text also provides additional information on my situation. Note that the apartment wasn't in perfectly shiny condition but it was tidy and a once over clean would have taken 1 MAX 2 hours.

Hello,

please hold the transfer of the amount that was calculated by you.
I hereby request the following information:

Why was I billed 14.76€ for a fire blanket? I am not aware of any such item ever being in the apartment or going missing.

I was billed 47.99€ for the replacement of the shaving light even though this was a) brought to the attention of the agent xyz in the week we moved in and b) the broken bulb in the shaving lamp was replaced by me

Please provide a breakdown of why the cleaning of the apartment cost 369.98€. Where did you hire the cleaners, which material did they use, how many cleaned the apartment, what was their hourly rate and how long did they clean?. You also mentioned that you additionally had the curtains cleaned for 60€ which runs up the cost of the cleaning to 429.98€.

Why was I charged with 15.99€ for fixing a bulb-connection in the sitting room?

I was charged 43.75€ for the replacement of light bulbs in the whole apartment, which should also fall under wear and tear.

Why was I charged 140€ for the replacement of locks on the door? The big lock was never used by us as the key provided was so badly cut that we were not able to utilise it. Also you wrote „Also the chubb lock was broken in front door and I had to replace the locks at a cost of €140“. Why did you replace both locks if you claim that only one of them was broken?

I was charged 89.99€ for the replacement of a hover which I bought. I merely forgot to pack it when I moved and I assume you threw it out, even though it was in perfectly fine condition (granted that one weel would block but I would still have used it)

I was charged 250€ for replacing the extractor fan. This has simply stopped absorbing air. I have not done anything to break it. This should fall under wear and tear.
Regarding the cost of re-letting that you did not charge me with, you mentioned that this cost you 600€. Please provide an exact breakdown of this sum in form of a receipt.

Once you have provided breakdowns and receipts I can launch a dispute on PRTB.

Regards,

dapop

It looks to me like the landlord is trying to pass maintenance costs onto you which she cannot do unless it is proved that you have caused damage.

As regards the cleaning did you ever agree an inventory at the start of your tenancy? importantly this would need to record the cleanliness and condition of the place so that there is a comparison to base the check out condition on. without an agreed inventory the PRTB will probably dismiss the cleaning claim.

Some other points that may have been covered above by others.

- The cleaning cost seems excessive so do get hold of a copy of the receipt. For comparison I can get a three bed house cleaned for approx €250.00 by a professional cleaning company. You should ring two or three cleaning companies and get a ballpark quote for the property. They should provide this and possibly email it to you.

- Cost of replacement extract seems high. I can get them changed for about €125.00 by a registered electrician.

- Bulbs are a consumable so down to a tenant to replace. A lot of landlords will not charge for them unless there are a lot that need changing.

- You are entitled to receipts to support all deductions.

- A landlord can charge for re-letting costs but I have seen the PRTB take the view that it is a cost that has to be faced at some point and may think coming after a 3 year + tenancy charging you for it is unreasonable.

Finally the PRTB is getting quicker so get your paperwork into them and you may have a hearing date within 4-6 weeks with a result in 3 weeks following the hearing.

DhalsimHibiki

dapop wrote: »

It looks to me like the landlord is trying to pass maintenance costs onto you which she cannot do unless it is proved that you have caused damage.

As regards the cleaning did you ever agree an inventory at the start of your tenancy? importantly this would need to record the cleanliness and condition of the place so that there is a comparison to base the check out condition on. without an agreed inventory the PRTB will probably dismiss the cleaning claim.

- Cost of replacement extract seems high. I can get them changed for about €125.00 by a registered electrician.

Thanks for your response! Just 2 follow up questions:

Do you mean that PRTB will probably dismiss her cleaning claim or me claiming that it is too high?

Do you think I would even have to pay for the extractor fan? I did not do anything with it, it simply stopped working.

endacl

newacc2015 wrote: »

It's fine if there is consent. But who is going to consent in this circumstance? It's better to put everything in writing

Once either party consents, it's fine. You can record any call you make.

Pac2015

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

Hey guys,

thanks a lot for all the information. I wrote up an email in response to her calculations. Could you please take a quick look and let me know what you think? The text also provides additional information on my situation. Note that the apartment wasn't in perfectly shiny condition but it was tidy and a once over clean would have taken 1 MAX 2 hours.

Hello,

please hold the transfer of the amount that was calculated by you.
I hereby request the following information:

Why was I billed 14.76€ for a fire blanket? I am not aware of any such item ever being in the apartment or going missing.

I was billed 47.99€ for the replacement of the shaving light even though this was a) brought to the attention of the agent xyz in the week we moved in and b) the broken bulb in the shaving lamp was replaced by me

Please provide a breakdown of why the cleaning of the apartment cost 369.98€. Where did you hire the cleaners, which material did they use, how many cleaned the apartment, what was their hourly rate and how long did they clean?. You also mentioned that you additionally had the curtains cleaned for 60€ which runs up the cost of the cleaning to 429.98€.

Why was I charged with 15.99€ for fixing a bulb-connection in the sitting room?

I was charged 43.75€ for the replacement of light bulbs in the whole apartment, which should also fall under wear and tear.

Why was I charged 140€ for the replacement of locks on the door? The big lock was never used by us as the key provided was so badly cut that we were not able to utilise it. Also you wrote „Also the chubb lock was broken in front door and I had to replace the locks at a cost of €140“. Why did you replace both locks if you claim that only one of them was broken?

I was charged 89.99€ for the replacement of a hover which I bought. I merely forgot to pack it when I moved and I assume you threw it out, even though it was in perfectly fine condition (granted that one weel would block but I would still have used it)

I was charged 250€ for replacing the extractor fan. This has simply stopped absorbing air. I have not done anything to break it. This should fall under wear and tear.
Regarding the cost of re-letting that you did not charge me with, you mentioned that this cost you 600€. Please provide an exact breakdown of this sum in form of a receipt.

Once you have provided breakdowns and receipts I can launch a dispute on PRTB.

Regards,

This is perfect but the last line I would change to " please respond in a timely manner as I have taken advice from the PRTB and if this cannot be resolved between ourselves this will be my next action "

Let her know you mean business as your last line sounds nearly like you are apologising.
Being a LL myself and also a renter I know you have to stand your ground as I have seen far too many LL including my own try to rip people off.

Best of luck

TheChizler

Pac2015 wrote: »

This is perfect but the last line I would change to " please respond in a timely manner as I have taken advice from the PRTB and if this cannot be resolved between ourselves this will be my next action "

Let her know you mean business as your last line sounds nearly like you are apologising.
Being a LL myself and also a renter I know you have to stand your ground as I have seen far too many LL including my own try to rip people off.

Best of luck

I'd also shorten the bit about the hoover, forget about the wheel, it was a hoover you owned, why would you pay her to buy her own one when you leave?

All good apart from that (the pedant in me would have you put the € sign before the numbers though!)

dapop

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

Thanks for your response! Just 2 follow up questions:

Do you mean that PRTB will probably dismiss her cleaning claim or me claiming that it is too high?

Do you think I would even have to pay for the extractor fan? I did not do anything with it, it simply stopped working.

They may dismiss a lot of her claim, including the cleaning, if she cannot give evidence to support the condition of items at the start of the tenancy. This is normally recorded on an inventory agreed by landlord and tenant as a true record of the property at lease commencement.

They will not outright dismiss your claim that it is too high.

Personally I do not know why you would have to pay for the extractor unless you have let it get so encrusted with grease that it cannot be salvaged. Normally when they stop working it is just a maintenance issue and maintenance is generally just a cost the landlord has to cover.

Put another way the landlord will have to prove to the PRTB that you damaged the extractor in some way.

Nothing is guaranteed with the PRTB but based on what you have said I think you have a good case.

bizleads

Unfortunately you wont get your deposit back, nobody does. You can deal with PRTB and waste at least few days and more time in preparation for your case.

Im speaking from my experience - it will go like this: you tell your side of the story, landlord will tell theirs. because you are not experienced in this landlord will come prepared.

PRTB will tell you to agree somewhere in the middle. so if deposit is 1000 you are looking to get back max 500 in good case.

They wont find any of the charges excessive, because they will see real invoice. BTW PRTB can award landlord money if they dont even show invoices.

Also do you know that landlord can bill you for his time cleaning and fixing the property on top of professional services that they hired to do same job? if you dont believe me call treshold to confirm.

Your landlord will show as many invoices as possible to build up his story and PRTB might determine that it is excessive, still they will deduct half of it in good case.

All of this will add up and you will be left with peanuts.

I wish you all the best

DhalsimHibiki

bizleads wrote: »

Unfortunately you wont get your deposit back, nobody does. You can deal with PRTB and waste at least few days and more time in preparation for your case.

Im speaking from my experience - it will go like this: you tell your side of the story, landlord will tell theirs. because you are not experienced in this landlord will come prepared.

PRTB will tell you to agree somewhere in the middle. so if deposit is 1000 you are looking to get back max 500 in good case.

They wont find any of the charges excessive, because they will see real invoice. BTW PRTB can award landlord money if they dont even show invoices.

Also do you know that landlord can bill you for his time cleaning and fixing the property on top of professional services that they hired to do same job? if you dont believe me call treshold to confirm.

Your landlord will show as many invoices as possible to build up his story and PRTB might determine that it is excessive, still they will deduct half of it in good case.

All of this will add up and you will be left with peanuts.

I wish you all the best

I am already left with peanuts. She wants to pay €120 out of €1050. Even at €500 I would get 4 times the amount of money she wants to give me.

detoxkid

Pntb seemed to gave upped their game. I know someone who was in a similar situation to you who got most of their deposit back via the pntb.

TheChizler

bizleads wrote: »

Also do you know that landlord can bill you for his time cleaning and fixing the property on top of professional services that they hired to do same job? if you dont believe me call treshold to confirm.

There's a few things wrong with that post. This one is definitely untrue.

gaius c

TheChizler wrote: »

There's a few things wrong with that post. This one is definitely untrue.

A few?

OP
How long was the apartment vacant after you left?

Also, could she really pin the cost of having the apartment re-let on me because I ended the lease early?

She can only do that if it was not possible to re-let the apartment to somebody else. For example, if you left two months before the end of the lease and she re-let it within a week, she is only entitled to deduct for the week that it was empty. If it was empty for the full two months, she might have a case to look for two months rent but only if she had made a reasonable effort to find a new tenant. She is not entitled to deduct other costs associated with re-letting, like the agent or advertising. These are costs she would have had to pay anyway if the tenancy ended "naturally".

We had a chancer try that with us before despite us moving out on a Sunday and the new tenants moving in on Monday.

gaius c

See below in red

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

Hey guys,

thanks a lot for all the information. I wrote up an email in response to her calculations. Could you please take a quick look and let me know what you think? The text also provides additional information on my situation. Note that the apartment wasn't in perfectly shiny condition but it was tidy and a once over clean would have taken 1 MAX 2 hours.

Hello,

please hold the transfer of the amount that was calculated by you.
I hereby request the following information:

Why was I billed 14.76€ for a fire blanket? I am not aware of any such item ever being in the apartment or going missing.
Good

I was billed 47.99€ for the replacement of the shaving light even though this was a) brought to the attention of the agent xyz in the week we moved in and b) the broken bulb in the shaving lamp was replaced by me
Do you have written evidence of this? Could be your word against hers.

Please provide a breakdown of why the cleaning of the apartment cost 369.98€. Where did you hire the cleaners, which material did they use, how many cleaned the apartment, what was their hourly rate and how long did they clean?. You also mentioned that you additionally had the curtains cleaned for 60€ which runs up the cost of the cleaning to 429.98€.
If she can produce receipts and pictures to prove the apartment wasn't clean, you're done here. Have you any pictures yourself?

Why was I charged with 15.99€ for fixing a bulb-connection in the sitting room?
Did you damage this?

I was charged 43.75€ for the replacement of light bulbs in the whole apartment, which should also fall under wear and tear.
No. That would be your responsibility.

Why was I charged 140€ for the replacement of locks on the door? The big lock was never used by us as the key provided was so badly cut that we were not able to utilise it. Also you wrote „Also the chubb lock was broken in front door and I had to replace the locks at a cost of €140“. Why did you replace both locks if you claim that only one of them was broken?
Good

I was charged 89.99€ for the replacement of a hover which I bought. I merely forgot to pack it when I moved and I assume you threw it out, even though it was in perfectly fine condition (granted that one weel would block but I would still have used it)
Just say, the hoover was my own property and not in the property when we moved in. Therefore you cannot charge for replacement.

KISS

I was charged 250€ for replacing the extractor fan. This has simply stopped absorbing air. I have not done anything to break it. This should fall under wear and tear.
Absolutely. This is where she is clearly pulling the piss.

Regarding the cost of re-letting that you did not charge me with, you mentioned that this cost you 600€. Please provide an exact breakdown of this sum in form of a receipt.
See my earlier post. She's probably just trying to intimidate you into backing down.

Once you have provided breakdowns and receipts I can launch a dispute on PRTB.
I would delete that entire last line. You're going to the PRTB anyway so you're just getting the story straight before you do.
Regards,

DhalsimHibiki

Thanks a lot for the advice!

I might still have the email outlining the issues with the shaving light. Even if I don't have it, I will try to make the case that I didn't break it. Like the extractor fan it simply did not turn on.

The apartment was never in a terrible state. Her taking pictures before having the apartment cleaned would definitely prove that €396 is way too much for the work that was necessary. This is a 1 bedroom apartment which can be thoroughly cleaned in 2 hours.

Just going by the lowest rate, a cleaner from hassle.ie would clean your house for 30 hours with their own cleaning agents for the price my landlady charges. (I understand that she would probably not have to go out of her way to find the cheapest cleaner out there but the price must lie somewhere in the middle.

foggy_lad

DhalsimHibiki wrote: »

Thanks a lot for the advice!

I might still have the email outlining the issues with the shaving light. Even if I don't have it, I will try to make the case that I didn't break it. Like the extractor fan it simply did not turn on.

The apartment was never in a terrible state. Her taking pictures before having the apartment cleaned would definitely prove that €396 is way too much for the work that was necessary. This is a 1 bedroom apartment which can be thoroughly cleaned in 2 hours.

Just going by the lowest rate, a cleaner from hassle.ie would clean your house for 30 hours with their own cleaning agents for the price my landlady charges. (I understand that she would probably not have to go out of her way to find the cheapest cleaner out there but the price must lie somewhere in the middle.

The fact that this clown is trying to charge you for replacement of a perfectly working hoover with one stuck wheel that you actually owned shows what a robbing cowboy she is! she is trying to steal your deposit by making nonsense claims of damage and repairs!

newacc2015

gaius c wrote: »

See below in red

What Bulbs are they though? If its a few cheap, incandescent bulbs. I doubt OP was living in darkness for several months, as he didnt replace them. Even if its CFLs, with a lifecycle of 5-10 years, you cant assume all of them went at once. I have feeling the landlord, might have brought a few lightbulbs for her own house using OPs deposit.

antoinolachtnai

The OP has broken their lease. The OP is in an extremely weak position as regards return of deposit. On the face of it the tenant is liable for letting fees and covering any void period. This is more than the deposit. On a bad day at PRTB the tenant could end up with an order against them to pay landlord costs beyond the deposit.

Really a separate thing but I don't understand why tenants or for that matter landlords sign 12 month extension leases. It often ends in strife and the only one who really gains is the agent.