The end of Aer Arann?

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/state-air-service-contract-withdrawn-from-aer-arann-islands-at-likely-loss-of-40-jobs-1.2329866

Not a fan of this. A whole company gone from the stroke of a pen.

squonk

Seems strange. A helicopter won't carry cargo. Also, given the type of weather the islands typcally encounter, I'd imagine the plane was a more reliable option?

Quadrature

There goes the Gaeltacht and probably a big chunk of the west of Ireland vote at the stroke of a pen too.
This government isn't the brightest.

Aerohead

As far as I know they will be getting a larger helicopter and this could also be a new start for Galway Airport as they will be operating from there and it will be an all year round passenger service, I could never understand why Aer Arann moved to Connemara and built a new Airport there, its a 20 mile drive out in a minibus from Galway then a seven minute flight where as it was a seven mile run from Galway City to Galway Airport and a fifteen minute flight. I am sure executive helicopters will be operating a good and reliable service which would have to include luggage or they would not have got the contract.

Tabnabs

squonk wrote: »

Seems strange. A helicopter won't carry cargo. Also, given the type of weather the islands typcally encounter, I'd imagine the plane was a more reliable option?

Tell that to the guys with the contract for the lighthouse service, they've been doing it for decades around the Irish coast and islands.

Quadrature

If it works successfully it'll be good.
Where will it be landing on the mainland ?

L1011

That airport in Inverin is the biggest problem with the service. Just because its nearer to the ferry port doesn't mean thats where people actually want to go to/from the islands from. Was pork barrel politics getting it funded even though it has eventually caused the death of the service.

Had the service never moved there they would have continued selling through flights to Dublin as long as that service survived, which would have massively increased tourist access to the islands.

The Islanders (the planes, that is) were leaking buckets the last few times I had to go over for work - by comparison the copter service to Tory was nothing of the sort.

Quadrature wrote: »

If it works successfully it'll be good.
Where will it be landing on the mainland ?

Galway Airport.




Aer Arann Islands manage at least some of the island airports (as well as the never opened Clifden/Boffin strips - the Clifden one being another pointless waste) so there could be some issues with where they land on the islands if AAI go under now.

pepe the prawn

It's sad to see what could be the end of the airline.

Neworder79

Aerohead wrote: »

As far as I know they will be getting a larger helicopter and this could also be a new start for Galway Airport as they will be operating from there and it will be an all year round passenger service, I could never understand why Aer Arann moved to Connemara and built a new Airport there, its a 20 mile drive out in a minibus from Galway then a seven minute flight where as it was a seven mile run from Galway City to Galway Airport and a fifteen minute flight. I am sure executive helicopters will be operating a good and reliable service which would have to include luggage or they would not have got the contract.

So Carnmore (erased in the newly published Nationsl Aviation Policy) has found a new subsidy source. Council won't change use with this in place.

I guess Inverin will end up abandoned like Boffin and Cleggan.

notharrypotter

So Carnmore (erased in the newly published Nationsl Aviation Policy) has found a new subsidy source.

Yep.

Storm 10

Executive Helicopters also operate from Scotland to some of the Oil Rigs there so they have passenger carrying helicopters, not sure what name they use there but it will be interesting to see what size helicopter they use to the Islands, I am sure all this was looked into before the contract was given to them, either way its good news for Galway Airport given all the private and company aircraft currently going in there and they are now refuelling the Coastguard and Air Corps helicopters as well.

Youngblood.III

Plane trip return was about 45e, I cannot imagine the helicopter trip been that cheap.

Storm 10

Youngblood.III wrote: »

Plane trip return was about 45e, I cannot imagine the helicopter trip been that cheap.

Islanders are subsided at a set rate not sure what it is, but as I said previous all of this would have been worked out before the contract was given.

Irish Steve

At the outset to this post, I am NOT trying to be controversial, but some will see this as being so.

It is time for the air service to the Aran Islands to move on to more modern equipment. The Islanders are an old aircraft, not easily replaced, and the operating costs are getting higher with time, and it's getting harder to get things like Avgas.

The only attempt I am aware of in recent years to look at an alternative aircraft ended very badly, with the fatal crash of a Cessna Caravan during demonstration/proving flights, so there will be an understandable reluctance to use them on the service with that memory still strong.

While there are clearly significant operating cost differences between fixed wing and rotary, there are also advantages in using rotary wing, they can get into the islands in weather conditions that would make fixed wing operations impossible, and it may be possible to put in low cost facilities to allow night (and possibly IFR) rotary wing operations without too much trouble, whereas night or IFR operations with fixed wing is not going to happen for a lot of reasons.

I could go into more details, but I'd prefer not to at this point.

Storm 10

This could also be good news for the other Islands off the West Coast, they built a runway on Inishboffin that has never been used but now with a helicopter service they wont need a runway so the Islands out there will I am sure as time goes on get a service as well, interesting times ahead as the helicopter could be used for medical transfers as well.

Quadrature

Building runways on a small, rocky island probably makes very little sense if the service can be done by modern, passenger helicopters.

I've always assumed that appropriately spec'd helicopters were more considered less prone to being impacted by bad weather than small planes ?

18MonthsaSlave

I'm with Bertie on this.
Only imminent fear of death would induce me to hitch a lift in a helicopter. Those things fall out of the sky like nobody's business.

LXFlyer

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/state-air-service-contract-withdrawn-from-aer-arann-islands-at-likely-loss-of-40-jobs-1.2329866

Not a fan of this. A whole company gone from the stroke of a pen.

Unfortunately no company can be guaranteed an endless contract.


The state has to award competitive tenders and get value for its money.


It's sad for the employees, but that's modern life these days - things change all the time,

JCX BXC

I'd imagine that the locals will get the same price on the service, but will the price for tourists etc go up? If so then this is a massive disappointment.

Would it also not make sense to link the islands with a larger airport Like Shannon or Dublin to increase the tourism?

RustyNut

What would the difference in running costs be between an ageing Islander and a modern twin helicopter?

18MonthsaSlave

Carnacalla wrote: »

Would it also not make sense to link the islands with a larger airport Like Shannon or Dublin to increase the tourism?

Or even a pontoon helipad in the vicinity of the train and bus stations in Urban Galway .

Irish Steve

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

I'm with Bertie on this.
Only imminent fear of death would induce me to hitch a lift in a helicopter. Those things fall out of the sky like nobody's business.

Perhaps some hard facts to back up your absurd statement might be appropriate.

PukkaStukka

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

I'm with Bertie on this.
Only imminent fear of death would induce me to hitch a lift in a helicopter. Those things fall out of the sky like nobody's business.

Perfect fodder for the Ignore button. :cool:

18MonthsaSlave

you try to autorotate to a safe landing from 200ft above ground when your engine shuts down.

Irish Steve

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

you try to autorotate to a safe landing from 200ft above ground when your engine shuts down.

Do you actually have any COMMERCIAL helicopter experience, as that is what is being discussed here, and the majority of helicopters used for commercial passenger work are multi engine, so the (exceedingly rare) failure of 1 engine will be an inconvenience, and little more for the sort of operations that will be happening in Galway Bay, where high level performance will not be an issue.

18MonthsaSlave

What happens if you have to autorotate at a low height? can you autorotate from a low height to safety?
With a plane you have an inefficient glider when all engines fail. With a helicopter you have a stone until autorotation kicks in.
I would be a consumer of this service and I would not see replacement of a plane with a helicopter as a like for like substitution which means I'd be driving out to Rosaveel and taking the ferry.

Joe 90

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

you try to autorotate to a safe landing from 200ft above ground when your engine shuts down.

From any reasonable speed, whats the problem? From a 200 ft hover, yer screwed. Never heard of the avoid curve?
Anyway, a commercial op over water is most likely going to be twin engined.

Edit to add: The Jetranger has a reputation for fantastc auto ability so I would not be surprised if you did get away with it.

Aerohead

Coastguard have been operating helicopters off the West Coast in all kinds of weather airlifting people to hospital in Galway since 1992 and never had an issue, I understand that they will be using a large passenger helicopter far better than a small narrow Islander

18MonthsaSlave

amazing how the enthusiasts here can't understand that ordinary civilians might not actually want to fly on a helicopter on a dark wednesday evening in the middle of December in a part of the country where the few trees that stand have a wizened appearance shaped by the prevaling winds gales.

18MonthsaSlave

Aerohead wrote: »

Coastguard have been operating helicopters off the West Coast in all kinds of weather airlifting people to hospital in Galway since 1992 and never had an issue, I understand that they will be using a large passenger helicopter far better than a small narrow Islander

If I am ever in the need of the services of the Coastguard then I'll take the helicopter otherwise I ain't getting in no chopper.

syklops

Storm 10 wrote: »

Islanders are subsided at a set rate not sure what it is, but as I said previous all of this would have been worked out before the contract was given.

You seem very sure that all this has been thought out and planned for.

I highly doubt thats the case.

Aerohead

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

If I am ever in the need of the services of the Coastguard then I'll take the helicopter otherwise I ain't getting in no chopper.

I take it you have not flown to the Aran Islands like I have in a gale and I can tell you its not a nice experience , getting buffeted around like a jack in the box, a large helicopter is a more stable platform. you could take the ferry and be in a more unpleasant situation , I am sure that you wont fly with them wont really bother them.

syklops

Aerohead wrote: »

I take it you have not flown to the Aran Islands like I have in a gale and I can tell you its not a nice experience , getting buffeted around like a jack in the box, a large helicopter is a more stable platform. you could take the ferry and be in a more unpleasant situation , I am sure that you wont fly with them wont really bother them.

I would actually love taking the ferry to the islands in a storm.

Clearly, I'm a different type of individual.

Graham

syklops wrote: »

You seem very sure that all this has been thought out and planned for.

I highly doubt thats the case.

I'd be incredibly surprised if the specifics hadn't been documented to the smallest detail.

Contracts like this aren't awarded by pulling names out of a hat.

IITYWYBMAD

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

amazing how the enthusiasts here can't understand that ordinary civilians might not actually want to fly on a helicopter on a dark wednesday evening in the middle of December in a part of the country where the few trees that stand have a wizened appearance shaped by the prevaling winds gales.

Fly on a Tuesday then...

RustyNut

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

If I am ever in the need of the services of the Coastguard then I'll take the helicopter otherwise I ain't getting in no chopper.

Choppers can be fun.

Irish Steve

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

What happens if you have to autorotate at a low height? can you autorotate from a low height to safety?
With a plane you have an inefficient glider when all engines fail. With a helicopter you have a stone until autorotation kicks in.
I would be a consumer of this service and I would not see replacement of a plane with a helicopter as a like for like substitution which means I'd be driving out to Rosaveel and taking the ferry.

You really need to do some serious reading on things like aerodynamics, and the routine operations of helicopters.

While landing a fixed wing aircraft without engines is more tricky, in that you have to get it right first time, there's no option to have another go, ( the space shuttle always got it right) there have been a number of occasions where large aircraft have made successful no engine landings after running out of fuel, to put it in context, s 737 could shut the engines off at cruising height before crossing the coast at Aberystwyth, and land at Dublin.

A helicopter doesn't drop like a stone just because the engine stops, yes, the flight crew have to recognise the failure, and take appropriate action, and then manage the descent to land, and in the same way as with the Space shuttle, you only get one go at it, there's no option to try again, but the number of occasions on which it happens to COMMERCIAL helicopters is very very very small in terms of the number of operations that take place on a daily basis, as mentioned earlier, on a twin engine helicopter, the failure of 1 engine is an incident, not a potential accident.

A double engine failure on a helicopter is incredibly rare, and if it does happen, (yes it has), the accident investigators will be over it like a rash, until they find out why it happened.

Brutal honesty, you're more likely to have an accident in a small fixed wing aircraft than you are in a commercial helicopter, and the helicopter will have the advantage of having 2 crew to share the workload.

You really don't need to be concerned about the safety of helicopter operations to the Aran Islands, the operator will have to meet very high standards in order to be allowed to fly the service.

Aerohead

Prices to the Aran Islands from Aer Arann webpage, Islander prices are also there.

http://www.aerarannislands.ie/index.php/group-rates

18MonthsaSlave

RustyNut wrote: »

Choppers can be fun.

It is all great fun until somebody loses an eye.

18MonthsaSlave

Irish Steve wrote: »

You really need to do some serious reading on things like aerodynamics, and the routine operations of helicopters.

While landing a fixed wing aircraft without engines is more tricky, in that you have to get it right first time, there's no option to have another go, ( the space shuttle always got it right) there have been a number of occasions where large aircraft have made successful no engine landings after running out of fuel, to put it in context, s 737 could shut the engines off at cruising height before crossing the coast at Aberystwyth, and land at Dublin.

A helicopter doesn't drop like a stone just because the engine stops, yes, the flight crew have to recognise the failure, and take appropriate action, and then manage the descent to land, and in the same way as with the Space shuttle, you only get one go at it, there's no option to try again, but the number of occasions on which it happens to COMMERCIAL helicopters is very very very small in terms of the number of operations that take place on a daily basis, as mentioned earlier, on a twin engine helicopter, the failure of 1 engine is an incident, not a potential accident.

A double engine failure on a helicopter is incredibly rare, and if it does happen, (yes it has), the accident investigators will be over it like a rash, until they find out why it happened.

Brutal honesty, you're more likely to have an accident in a small fixed wing aircraft than you are in a commercial helicopter, and the helicopter will have the advantage of having 2 crew to share the workload.

You really don't need to be concerned about the safety of helicopter operations to the Aran Islands, the operator will have to meet very high standards in order to be allowed to fly the service.

Accidents happen due to a combination of factors such as for example poor weather conditions. Name a day when the weather you get around the Aran Islands can be classed as good weather conditions.

JCX BXC

Aerohead wrote: »

Prices to the Aran Islands from Aer Arann webpage, Islander prices are also there.

http://www.aerarannislands.ie/index.php/group-rates

They were the old prices. It's the future prices I'm interested in

RustyNut

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

Accidents happen due to a combination of factors such as for example poor weather conditions. Name a day when the weather you get around the Aran Islands can be classed as good weather conditions.

Most days would be good enough to fly safely.

Irish Steve

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

Accidents happen due to a combination of factors such as for example poor weather conditions. Name a day when the weather you get around the Aran Islands can be classed as good weather conditions.

Aer Aran are operating in daylight, VFR flying conditions, look it up. The helicopters will be able to operate in conditions when Aer Aran cannot, in complete safety.

Please stop scaremongering, and accept that the time for change has come for a whole list of reasons, and most of them are not related to the cost of providing the service.

18MonthsaSlave

A pilot will take risks and not get stranded on the islands on the marginal days; I think I'd prefer the purpose built product carrying the name which indicates its intended purpose; Islander.
I've made my point, I'll move on.

L1011

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

A pilot will take risks and not get stranded on the islands on the marginal days; I think I'd prefer the purpose built product carrying the name which indicates its intended purpose; Islander.
I've made my point, I'll move on.

So you're willing to trust a brand name on 40 year old technology rather than actually apply logic?

Helicopters are no more or less purpose built for their task than light aircraft are, and this kind of flying is their bread and butter.

Irish Steve

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

A pilot will take risks and not get stranded on the islands on the marginal days; I think I'd prefer the purpose built product carrying the name which indicates its intended purpose; Islander.
I've made my point, I'll move on.

You'd better. Your latest drivel is actually incredibly offensive, and a slur on some very professional pilots, some of whom I know personally.

I would suggest that you should seriously consider retracting that last statement before someone decides to take action over it, there are so many things that are wrong with it.

Tenger

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

A pilot will take risks and not get stranded on the islands on the marginal days; I think I'd prefer the purpose built product carrying the name which indicates its intended purpose; Islander.
I've made my point, I'll move on.

Indeed, you have made your point. Your point has been answered by several posters but you keep banging on about it. Even going so far as to think an aircraft named "Islander" is better than a helicopter.

You do not want to use a helicopter service to the Aran Islands....well lucky for you there is an alternative with the ferry. Like a previous perma-banned poster you do not seem to realise that while you are allowed your personal opinion it does not mean that your's is the only opinion.

Any tender will be fully documented and costs will be published. This thread is about the impact of the loss of tender on Aer Arann Islands.
Anymore "I hate choppers" or "choppers are dangerous" will see you getting an infraction and possibly a ban.

18MonthsaSlave

Tenger wrote: »

Any tender will be fully documented and costs will be published.

Is this directed at me or another poster. I made no reference to tenders but you address me?

Tenger

18MonthsaSlave wrote: »

Is this directed at me or another poster. I made no reference to tenders but you address me?

The warning over scaremongering is addressed to you.
The point about being on topic is addressed to you and everyone else.
The point of order about the how and why of the tender reward is a general comment to anyone who is questioning this decision. You may not like the decision but the govt will publish the logic behind it.

IRLConor

The last (actually only) time I went to Inis Mór was in a helicopter operated by Executive Helicopters. We flew from a car park near the train station in Galway and it was a fairly handy hop over to the airport on Inis Mór.

In terms of flexibility and convenience this should be a great benefit to people who want to get over and back on a more regular basis. Provided the costs are reasonable, of course.

elastico

In the long run its a lot easier maintain a small box for a helicopter than a full runway.

In fact you could have more than one landing point now on both the islands and the mainland.

I don't get the bit about freight, it's very rare the ferry or supply ship won't sail due to weather anyway.