Billy Walsh quits ** SEE MOD WARNING #643 BEFORE POSTING

Donald Trump

Strazdas wrote: »

Kieran Mulvey was an active participant in the deal brokered between Walsh, the IABA and the ISC on August 22 though, not just a bystander looking in from the outside. He was perfectly entitled to speak up, especially when he felt the IABA had reneged on that deal and without explanation.

No. Kieran Mulvery should have been a facilitator.

It is not up to him to abuse his position to publicly back one side over the other or to force a decision on any one side.

What, realistically, did he expect? At that stage the writing was on the wall. There was no way that Billy Walsh could return once he went public like that. The IABA could not acquiesce under such circumstance without undermining their authority over the sport. Authority that they are entitled to have. And it would have been a bad day for Irish Boxing in the medium to long term had they done so.

Once Mulvey made those comments in public, that was the end of it. There was no going back. He should have known better

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

No. Kieran Mulvery should have been a facilitator.

It is not up to him to abuse his position to publicly back one side over the other or to force a decision on any one side.

What, realistically, did he expect? At that stage the writing was on the wall. There was no way that Billy Walsh could return once he went public like that. The IABA could not acquiesce under such circumstance without undermining their authority over the sport. Authority that they are entitled to have. And it would have been a bad day for Irish Boxing in the medium to long term had they done so.

Once Mulvey made those comments in public, that was the end of it. There was no going back. He should have known better

Maybe we need a root and branch review of our organisation???

Shurimgreat

I don't think elite performance and the IABA go hand in hand frankly. Its time to separate off the high performance unit before IABA mediocrity drags it down.

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

Oh, and I noticed you sidestepped my point about looking for the proof that the IABA is almost entirely funded by the taxpayer.

If you mean the administrative expenses of the people in the Stadium, you might be correct. I do not know. But you are wrong, wrong and wrong again about the organization and structure of Irish boxing as a whole

How much was raised in your club all year? How much did you receive in capitation grants???

We took €2 but didn't take it from anyone that didn't have it and not chase people for it

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

Maybe we need a root and branch review of our organisation???

Maybe we do.

That needs to be done internally. Not at the behest and on the whim of an external administrator due to a knee-jerk reaction over one individual coach.

If a review is needed, it was, and is still, needed regardless of whether Billy Walsh stayed or left.

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

Maybe we do.

That needs to be done internally. Not at the behest and on the whim of an external administrator due to a knee-jerk reaction over one individual coach.

If a review is needed, it was, and is still, needed regardless of whether Billy Walsh stayed or left.

An internal one would be a whitewash

€2 wouldn't even cover Insurance costs for boxers

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

How much was raised in your club all year? How much did you receive in capitation grants???

We took €2 but didn't take it from anyone that didn't have it and not chase people for it

I don't know what was received in grants. They did get some money from the national lottery at one stage. And I think one of the local politicians got them some funding towards the clubhouse.

My main point was that there are a lot of people involved in the sport and I don't like to see an external administrator demanding, or at least perceived to be demanding, that specific decisions be taken his way. And using the threat of removing public funding (not out of his pocket) as a gun to the head of the organization.

That is the principle of what I don't like. Regardless of who was to blame or to fault for the recent cockup. Whether it was equally shared or all on one side or a somewhere in between. That will need to be ascertained and problems identified fixed. But on no circumstances should the precedent be set that the Sports Council can force those decisions

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

I don't know what was received in grants. They did get some money from the national lottery at one stage. And I think one of the local politicians got them some funding towards the clubhouse.

My main point was that there are a lot of people involved in the sport and I don't like to see an external administrator demanding, or at least perceived to be demanding, that specific decisions be taken his way. And using the threat of removing public funding (not out of his pocket) as a gun to the head of the organization.

That is the principle of what I don't like. Regardless of who was to blame or to fault for the recent cockup. Whether it was equally shared or all on one side or a somewhere in between. That will need to be ascertained and problems identified fixed. But on no circumstances should the precedent be set that the Sports Council can force those decisions

He did advise the funding held back would only be that of the IABA in D8 and not local clubs

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

An internal one would be a whitewash

€2 wouldn't even cover Insurance costs for boxers

I'm not sure what the fixation is with the 2 Euro.

2 Euro is a tiny amount. My point is that they needed to ask for it. They would not have needed to do so if they were "funded by the taxpayer".

Money was raised in other ways. Runs/skipathons/sponsorship.

And I think that insurance might have been around 550 a year for the club at the time. That's 10 or 11 boxers subs for the year. This isn't relevant to the discussion

efb

I went all around Leinster every weekend for 5 years at my own expense judging and reffing boxing - I didn't get anything. A lot of money is kept in D8. Most clubs are run at a shoe string and if I was asked to R/J I wouldn't expect or take a penny. TCD gave me a bottle of whiskey once though

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm not sure what the fixation is with the 2 Euro.

2 Euro is a tiny amount. My point is that they needed to ask for it. They would not have needed to do so if they were "funded by the taxpayer".

Money was raised in other ways. Runs/skipathons/sponsorship.

And I think that insurance might have been around 550 a year for the club at the time. That's 10 or 11 boxers subs for the year. This isn't relevant to the discussion

The money running the elite boxing unit in Dublin is solely funded by the taxpayer

At least 50% of the clubs funds are from the taxpayer too through grants etc

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

He did advise the funding held back would only be that of the IABA in D8 and not local clubs

Do you think that it is correct in principle to effectively say "If the outcome is not the one I personally want, I'm going to cut off your government funding"

As you mentioned, that bit of money that is given comes from the taxpayer. Not from his pocket.

efb

A club one charged me an entrance fee, and felt very embarrassed when I sat down to judge. I didn't accept my admission fee back

Ctrl Alt Delete

Donald Trump wrote: »

No. Kieran Mulvery should have been a facilitator.

It is not up to him to abuse his position to publicly back one side over the other or to force a decision on any one side.

Completely disagree, it is his and the ISCs mission to promote, develop and maintain Irish sports, not the IABA. In this instance what was best for Irish boxing was the retention of Billy Walsh and the ISC took 100% the correct approach.

Donald Trump wrote: »

Maybe we do.

That needs to be done internally. Not at the behest and on the whim of an external administrator due to a knee-jerk reaction over one individual coach.

If a review is needed, it was, and is still, needed regardless of whether Billy Walsh stayed or left.

It is entirely the ISCs perogative to do as they wish in this regard. They afterall are the Governing bodies of the governing bodies, they are the ones who approve and take away governing body status so if they wish for a review one should be done, regardless of reasons.

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

Do you think that it is correct in principle to effectively say "If the outcome is not the one I personally want, I'm going to cut off your government funding"

As you mentioned, that bit of money that is given comes from the taxpayer. Not from his pocket.

Not him personally- the one he brokered between Sport Ireland, Walsh and the IABA

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

Do you think that it is correct in principle to effectively say "If the outcome is not the one I personally want, I'm going to cut off your government funding"

As you mentioned, that bit of money that is given comes from the taxpayer. Not from his pocket.

Where did he say that???

Royal Legend

Donald Trump wrote: »

I am sorry to see Billy Walsh leave.

The Sports Council should not be stepping in and trying to force any organization to hire or not hire their staff. They can of course decide to withhold their funding but must have consistent approach to all sporting organizations

I do not think that one man should have absolute power over selection of people to represent Ireland. I do not know whether that was a sticking point but I have read stories online and heard interviews where it was at least implied.

The Boxing team performance is down to individual performances. It is not like rugby or soccer where you might not pick the "individually best" 11 as in that case you are trying to build a team that is greater than the sum of it's parts. If you are Jack Charlton and you decide to leave Liam Brady on your bench then you can justify that somehow based on overall team performance. If someone is the best boxer at their weight, proven by winning the seniors, and/or box-offs, they should get their place on the team. I do not see a problem in principle with having to have a selection ratified. This is a reasonable control to have in place. I would like to know for definite how,for example, Athletics Ireland chose their athletes. I think that that is by a selection committee. And I don't hear the Sports Council calling for them to appoint one director who should have sole power to select all athletes for all events.

The IABA is a grassroots organization and I would hate to see a complete disconnect between the national selections and the local and provincial levels. People have mentioned that somehow the Sports Council should take the High Performance Section away from the IABA. That should never be done. It should be left in the hands of the people who nurture the boxers and the structure, not handed over to some pencil pushing carpetbaggers who see more potential Olympic medals on the horizon. That comment is directed at the Sports Council, not Billy Walsh of course. Billy has given his life to the sport from the ground up.

I do not have any connection to the IABA. I was an ordinary member of a local club but that was almost a decade ago. I do not have any connections to any of the parties involved. I have met Joe Christle maybe twice, but again, not within the last decade or so. I found him to be a extremely intelligent person and an absolute gentleman. He would not know or remember me though. I never met Fergal Carruth. I never met Billy Walsh. I met Gary Keegan once or twice. His name has been mentioned and I thought that was an extremely big loss to the organization when he left, more so than Billy Walsh now. I think it is disgraceful to read people commenting online, who probably never heard of any of these people, acting like know-it-alls and denigrating individuals who they probably had not known existed until a few weeks ago. Of course, there will be some people who know them, but in the main most people have probably just lapped up what they read in the tabloids over the last couple of weeks and are now experts in all things boxing.

I read in Vincent Hogans article that Billy was offered something like 115k to be a contractor and 95k to remain a staff member. The Sports Council might have been paying his wages currently, but unless they committed to providing that support indefinitely,I would understand any potential reticence to the IABA locking themselves into a potentially expensive contract that they might not be able to afford. This is not to mention the possible knock-on effects of other staff looking to benchmark themselves against any raises. And this is the body responsible for an amateur sport where coaches/trainers/referees all over the country give their time for free. It is like the GAA in that sense (ok, GAA refs might get a few quid to cover expenses but that's harmless ....boxing refs can't accept any money)

I think that overall it is a sorry situation and a loss for Irish boxing,but not an insurmountable one. It's a bit of a mess. Like when you know two people who are breaking up and it's done very publicly but you also know that it has got to a stage where that is the only option. I hope that Billy does well in the US. He will have his work cut out as amateur boxing is in a bad state there. I also hope that the Irish team continues to prosper and improve and I am sure that they will do so.

But, Sports Council, keep your noses out please and let the people who know the sport, run the sport

I think the above has been the most sensible contribution both in this forum and as against the media so far. Don't agree with all your points, but the general tone is correct.

We do not know the people involved personally, nor do most of the media, so from that point, neither side should be ridiculed or attacked like they have been in the last week or so.

What i do know, from a friend of mine who is a close family friend of Billy, is that he is a very proud Wexford and Irishman, who has had only the best interests of Irish boxing at heart. I am also sure that the others involved from the IABA side also had the same intentions.
Strong personalities are always going to clash, its just a fact of life.

Best of luck to Billy in his new job, lets hope that it does not come back to haunt us in the next few years.

efb

I don't believe all have as selfless intentions as Billy, and would it be naive to think so

Ctrl Alt Delete

Donald Trump wrote: »

The Sports Council should not be stepping in and trying to force any organization to hire or not hire their staff. They can of course decide to withhold their funding but must have consistent approach to all sporting organizations

Also, ISC have never been consistent with their funding in terms of each sport they all get different amounts based on the ISCs effective "whims".

If they feel the need to take some funding from the IABA in order to give to another sport to best utilise their budget that is exactly what they are entitled (and I'm guessing after this episode they will do)

efb

Ctrl Alt Delete wrote: »

Also, ISC have never been consistent with their funding in terms of each sport they all get different amounts based on the ISCs effective "whims".

If they feel the need to take some funding from the IABA in order to give to another sport to best utilise their budget that is exactly what they are entitled (and I'm guessing after this episode they will do)

Where's your evidence of this claim?

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

I went all around Leinster every weekend for 5 years at my own expense judging and reffing boxing - I didn't get anything. A lot of money is kept in D8. Most clubs are run at a shoe string and if I was asked to R/J I wouldn't expect or take a penny. TCD gave me a bottle of whiskey once though

Ah, one of the shows in the Exam Hall? That is a pretty cool venue to box in. I hope that you enjoyed your whiskey!

Clearlier

Donald Trump wrote: »

I agree that they need to make sure their funding isn't being wasted.

If they have problems with how the organization is being run then that is also a genuine concern.

It is not correct for them to intervene and make public statements on behalf of an individual. I think you might be agreeing with that part but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

What was presented in the press, and in interviews with that Kieran Mulvey was something along the lines of "If this isn't fixed and Billy leaves, we will reconsider the funding we give them". That is completely inappropriate

I think that Mulvey's point arose in respect of the agreement that he brokered between the IABA and Billy Walsh which the IABA failed to honour i.e. if an organisation can't even follow through on such an agreement then they must be in total disarray which solely based on this affair would seem pretty accurate.

According to the Irish Times he said

“My view now is that deal should be offered to Billy even at this late date and give up the nonsense that’s going on now in the IABA about this,”

and

“I’m effectively saying when the new funding round for 2016 comes up we will have to review our relationship with the IABA.”

If they had been separate points then I think that it would have been fine. They haven't been reported as such though and I can't imagine that a man of his experience would be naive enough to be misrepresented like that.

In the end I imagine that we agree that the IABA should be audited/investigated because it looks like they're pretty incompetent and that there should be no link between that audit and the offer to Billy Walsh of a contract.

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

Ah, one of the shows in the Exam Hall? That is a pretty cool venue to box in. I hope that you enjoyed your whiskey!

Yeah, I'm sure I did. Fair play to the lads and lasses for stepping though the ropes, novices are harder to ref and judge but usually it doesn't reach the final bell!!!

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

Where did he say that???

Who? Kieran Mulvey or the poster?

Mulvey did effectively threaten to withdraw funding if the situation was not resolved. And by resolved he means having Billy Walsh stay.


But by making that statement so publicly, he must have effectively ended any hopes that it could have been resolved.


My own preference would have been that they had sorted this out long ago internally. Long before it got to this stage. And that Billy Walsh was still there and working for the good of Irish boxing.

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

Who? Kieran Mulvey or the poster?

Mulvey did effectively threaten to withdraw funding if the situation was not resolved. And by resolved he means having Billy Walsh stay.


But by making that statement so publicly, he must have effectively ended any hopes that it could have been resolved.


My own preference would have been that they had sorted this out long ago internally. Long before it got to this stage. And that Billy Walsh was still there and working for the good of Irish boxing.

I'm not surprised Billy left in the way he was treated by the IABA old guard.

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

Yeah, I'm sure I did. Fair play to the lads and lasses for stepping though the ropes, novices are harder to ref and judge but usually it doesn't reach the final bell!!!

I was at a few of those shows. Whether or not I competed there specifically, I'll leave unanswered :-)

You might have reffed me at some stage though!

Ctrl Alt Delete

efb wrote: »

Where's your evidence of this claim?

It's not a claim it's my direct experience of being involved at senior level in a different sporting NGB, most people are under the impression the ISC is uniform in their funding they really are far from it. But seeing as how you asked, you can have a look at the funding they provide each sport including any special projects every year here

For example IABA get the following

Core Grant Funding 2015 - €431,713
High Performance Funding 2015 - €879,440
Direct Athlete Investment Funding 2015 - €204,000

Compare that for example to Camogie that gets a fraction of that funding at €378,519 for 2015. It is easy to see how the ISC may decide to reallocate a portion of funding.

efb

Donald Trump wrote: »

I was at a few of those shows. Whether or not I competed there specifically, I'll leave unanswered :-)

You might have reffed me at some stage though!

Well I hope you enjoyed it. The uni shows were enjoyable novice shows

Donald Trump

efb wrote: »

Well I hope you enjoyed it. The uni shows were enjoyable novice shows

Yeah I did. They were very good shows. As I mentioned, I met Joe Christle about 10 years ago and I think it was actually at one of those shows. The three Christle brothers boxed for TCD at one stage.

Sincere thanks for reffing some of the shows. Without the refs, there would be no show.

I don't want decisions to be taken away from people like you and put into the hands of external administrators who might not know about the sport

I am sure there are plenty of internal issues that need to be fixed in the IABA. But the online vitriol against individuals is not nice.
I fully respect your opinions. Other opinions, maybe not so much. People on here are probably more informed than your average punter but I see terrible comments on general newspaper sites etc.

jd

How long ago were these shows? Most of my memories of the exam hall involve me chewing the end of my pen!

(edit..answered above, after my time)