Landlord is increasing rent in the middle of a fixed term lease

stephenmario

Hi,

I'm looking for a bit of advise.

Basically my landlord is increasing my rent for a house from 1800 to 2100. The lease is for 12 months, from September to August and I've been there 3 years. The landlord told me yesterday the increase would take effect in October. I wasn't so positive on the idea and said I'd need some time to think about it and then the landlord told me if I was moving out I would need to give 30 days notice.

I'm in a situation that if I want to move out during the 12 lease I'll lose my deposit and I don't have enough time to give notice before I sign a new lease.

What can I do? I don't want to have to pay this increase.

TheChizler

September to this August or next September to August next year? Basically if you're in a lease if either person changes the conditions without the other person's consent they're breaking it. Do you mean you're about to enter a new lease and the landlord wants to raise the rent for it? If it's all outlined in advance and there hasn't been an increase in the year before then there's nothing much you can do. If you've agreed the upcoming lease and then he changed the agreement then he's breaking it. I don't see why you'd lose your deposit once you give the correct notice.

punisher5112

stephenmario wrote: »

Hi,

I'm looking for a bit of advise.

Basically my landlord is increasing my rent for a house from 1800 to 2100. The lease is for 12 months, from September to August and I've been there 3 years. The landlord told me yesterday the increase would take effect in October. I wasn't so positive on the idea and said I'd need some time to think about it and then the landlord told me if I was moving out I would need to give 30 days notice.

I'm in a situation that if I want to move out during the 12 lease I'll lose my deposit and I don't have enough time to give notice before I sign a new lease.

What can I do? I don't want to have to pay this increase.

1 LL can not increase inside 12month lease.
He can up after the 12 months.
Only thing the increase has to be within market rate for same/similar property.

2 if you feel it is too much and no other property in the area is that expensive then contact prtb with an official complaint letter.

Be prepared if you plan on staying that if they find the increase ok then you will have to pay difference and you could be waiting 6months for case to be heard

stephenmario

Sorry should have been more clear.

I'm about to sign a new lease from sept 15 to aug 16. The landlord wants to increase the rent in oct 15 which I am against. There's been no increase previously. My understanding is that I'm not able to break my fixed term lease without losing my deposit or move out at the end of the lease without a month notice with our losing my deposit?

Subcomandante Marcos

stephenmario wrote: »

Sorry should have been more clear.

I'm about to sign a new lease from sept 15 to aug 16. The landlord wants to increase the rent in oct 15 which I am against. There's been no increase previously. My understanding is that I'm not able to break my fixed term lease without losing my deposit or move out at the end of the lease without a month notice with our losing my deposit?

Your current lease ends in September 15, if I'm reading this right?

Just tell him you can't afford the price increase and won't be signing a new lease and will have to give him notice.

If you're signing a new 12 month lease every year you can leave at the end of each 12 month period.

whippet

stephenmario wrote: »

Sorry should have been more clear.

I'm about to sign a new lease from sept 15 to aug 16. The landlord wants to increase the rent in oct 15 which I am against. There's been no increase previously. My understanding is that I'm not able to break my fixed term lease without losing my deposit or move out at the end of the lease without a month notice with our losing my deposit?

the landlord is entitled to review the rent every 12 months, sounds like he is giving fair warning of an intended increase.

If you sign the new 12 month lease you are doing so at the new rent level. Should you wish not to pay the increase you can give your notice to terminate the lease and leave without needed to sign the new 12 month lease (as you are in a part 4 tenancy)

However, unless the rent increase is way out of line with going market rents you will still need to pay the increased amount until you fulfil your notice period an move out.

TheChizler

If you haven't agreed a lease yet how would you be breaking it? I'm not sure what notice period is required (from the tenant) if you wish to move out at the end of a fixed term lease, I think the position is more that you move out at the end of it by default, and that you should say if you want to continue it, unless the lease specifies these conditions (the landlord however has to give very specified notice). But anyway, October it two months away, plenty of time to give notice.

stephenmario

whippet wrote: »

the landlord is entitled to review the rent every 12 months, sounds like he is giving fair warning of an intended increase.

If you sign the new 12 month lease you are doing so at the new rent level. Should you wish not to pay the increase you can give your notice to terminate the lease and leave without needed to sign the new 12 month lease (as you are in a part 4 tenancy)

However, unless the rent increase is way out of line with going market rents you will still need to pay the increased amount until you fulfil your notice period an move out.

I'd be signing a new lease beginning 01/09/15. The increase would take effect 01/10/15. Realistically the notice I'm getting about the increase is a week as I'll be locked into the fixed 12 month lease with the increase beginning a month into the lease.

I have read I need to give notice a months notice at the end of a fixed lease which I can't do now because it is up next week. I can't give a months notice in a fixed 12 month lease as it is fixed for that time period.

Daith

I think the Landlord is doing you a favour here.

Have you suggested to him about ending the lease in Aug, paying for Sept as normal and move out in Oct? He's not asking for increased rent in Sept is he?

Also this might sound silly but do double check your lease actually finishes on the 1st of Sept and not the end? Which would tie in to Landlord only wanting rent increase in Oct...

scrimshanker

stephenmario wrote: »

I'd be signing a new lease beginning 01/09/15. The increase would take effect 01/10/15. Realistically the notice I'm getting about the increase is a week as I'll be locked into the fixed 12 month lease with the increase beginning a month into the lease.

I have read I need to give notice a months notice at the end of a fixed lease which I can't do now because it is up next week. I can't give a months notice in a fixed 12 month lease as it is fixed for that time period.

So don't sign a new lease! Give 8 weeks written notice that you intend to terminate the tenancy. So you'll pay one month at the higher rate and then leave.

Subcomandante Marcos

stephenmario wrote: »

I have read I need to give notice a months notice at the end of a fixed lease which I can't do now because it is up next week.

Of course you can, you don't HAVE to sign the new lease next week. Your landlord didn't give you a months notice before the end of the lease that he was upping the rent!

Phone him and tell him you can't afford the increase and You will be moving out on 1/10/2015. This gives him one months notice from the end date of the current lease.

Daith

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Of course you can, you don't HAVE to sign the new lease next week. Your landlord didn't give you a months notice before the end of the lease that he was upping the rent!

Is this an actual requirement for a fixed term lease? A minimum notice from the landlord about the rent?

Subcomandante Marcos

The really weird thing here is that the new lease starts in September but he wants to up the rent in October.
He's pulling a fast one and trying to lock you into a new lease without giving proper notice of increase. He should have given you the notice at the end of July that the rent would increase in the new lease, he didn't and now he's trying to trick you into signing a new lease at the higher rate. I'd almost advise you to insist that as he didn't give proper notice that you have no intention of signing on at a higher rate and will be exercising your intention to sign a new lease at the old rate as he hasn't given you proper notice of increase.

Subcomandante Marcos

Daith wrote: »

Is this an actual requirement for a fixed term lease? A minimum notice from the landlord about the rent?

I'm 99% certain that just as the tenant has to inform that landlord that they wish to remain in occupation 1 month before the end of the lease, the Landlord would have to introduce the increase at that stage.


The OP hasn't told us whether or not the had given the landlord notification of intention to remain in occupation now that I think of it.

Had you told the landlord by 1/08/2015 that you would remain in the property OP? If so, and he is only introducing the increase now, he's in the wrong.

If not your lease ends next week and tbh that's the end of it.

athtrasna

Why would you sign a new lease? A Part IV tenancy allows you to give notice and move out without being tied to a 12 month lease.

stephenmario

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

The really weird thing here is that the new lease starts in September but he wants to up the rent in October.
He's pulling a fast one and trying to lock you into a new lease without giving proper notice of increase. He should have given you the notice at the end of July that the rent would increase in the new lease, he didn't and now he's trying to trick you into signing a new lease at the higher rate. I'd almost advise you to insist that as he didn't give proper notice that you have no intention of signing on at a higher rate and will be exercising your intention to sign a new lease at the old rate as he hasn't given you proper notice of increase.

This is partly what I feel is going on. the Landlord wanted to increase the rent but didn't inform us in time and is now doing it a month into the lease to say notice has been given.

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I'm 99% certain that just as the tenant has to inform that landlord that they wish to remain in occupation 1 month before the end of the lease, the Landlord would have to introduce the increase at that stage.


The OP hasn't told us whether or not the had given the landlord notification of intention to remain in occupation now that I think of it.

Had you told the landlord by 1/08/2015 that you would remain in the property OP? If so, and he is only introducing the increase now, he's in the wrong.

If not your lease ends next week and tbh that's the end of it.

I've never given a months notice about staying on, so no I did not give notice about extending the lease. I'm happy to move out as I'm not a fan of the Landlord. I would like my deposit back and I feel the landlord will try to keep it by saying he's done nothing wrong giving notice of the increase a month before the increase and that I was in the wrong because I didn't give notice about not extending the lease.

Michael D Not Higgins

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

I'm 99% certain that just as the tenant has to inform that landlord that they wish to remain in occupation 1 month before the end of the lease, the Landlord would have to introduce the increase at that stage.

There's nothing in RTA2004 that requires this. Only that the increase must be notified 28 days before it takes place.

It's likely that the landlord realised his error after issuing the new lease that he hadn't raised the rent. He then attempted to give the correct notice but now it falls within the lease.

I've seen two schools of thought on this. One, that the lease constitutes a rent review and you cannot change the rent a year after the signing of a lease. Two, that the rent can be changed at any time as long as it has been at least 12 months since the last review (or start of the tenancy).

Either way, the landlord has let you know his intentions. You can give notice now if you don't wish to pay the increase or take a case with the PRTB if it is above market rate or you feel it constitutes a breach of any law in RTA2004.

Michael D Not Higgins

I'd also add, the landlord is notifying you now before the lease is signed so I think it's fair enough to include it as an extra term in the lease that the rent is due to increase and correct notice has been given.

FishOnABike

The landlord can increase the rent to the market rate if it has not been increased within the last 12 months, which it hasn't as it was set at the start of the current fixed term lease. However notification of any increase should be in writing and given at least 28 days in advance. It can't just happen by the way on the renewal of a lease.

The tenant is under no obligation to sign a new lease, they can decide to remain under a part iv tenancy but should have notified the landlord (in writing) between there months and one month before the end of their current fixed term lease that they intended remaining at the end of the fixed term lease (whether under a new fixed term or part iv)

If the tenant does not want to stay at the end of the fixed term lease they should notify the landlord, in writing, with a valid notice of termination with a notice period in line with section.66 of the RTA i.e. 56 days if you are there for two or more years.

See
http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

So the questions that have to be asked are

have you been given a valid notice of the rent increase - the one month deferral of the increase in the proposed new fixed term lease could be the landlord's way of complying with this.

Is the proposed rent in line with market rates ? If not you can raise a dispute with the PRTB to determine the market rate. If the PRTB find in the landlord's favour you will have to pay it in full, from the original date of the increase (October this year).

If you do decide to enter into a new fixed term lease, you are not necessarily tied to staying there for the full term of the lease. You can request to sublet of assign the lease within the term of the lease. If the landlord refuses your request you can then terminate the fixed term lease without penalty.

stephenmario

FishOnABike wrote: »

If the tenant does not want to stay at the end of the fixed term lease they should notify the landlord, in writing, with a valid notice of termination with a notice period in line with section.66 of the RTA i.e. 56 days if you are there for two or more years.

My question is then, Do I have to give this notice when the landlord has given only a weeks notice of the increase?

TheChizler

stephenmario wrote: »

My question is then, Do I have to give this notice when the landlord has given only a weeks notice of the increase?

He's given you 5 weeks notice.

scrimshanker

stephenmario wrote: »

My question is then, Do I have to give this notice when the landlord has given only a weeks notice of the increase?

Yes.

Daith

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

I'd also add, the landlord is notifying you now before the lease is signed so I think it's fair enough to include it as an extra term in the lease that the rent is due to increase and correct notice has been given.

Effectively the landlord is giving the tenant a week's notice because the lease would need to be signed in a week.

Michael D Not Higgins

Daith wrote: »

Effectively the landlord is giving the tenant a week's notice because the lease would need to be signed in a week.

There's no obligation to sign the lease, the notice given is more than that required by law.

Daith

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

There's no obligation to sign the lease, the notice given is more than that required by law.

Yes but there is a reason you can't increase rent after the start of a fixed term lease. The landlord made an error and while it's in the law it's a sucky thing to do given the lease is up next week.

OP however he does have the law on his side. I think your best bet would be to claim Part IV tenancy so you're not tied to a fixed term lease.

TheChizler

Daith wrote: »

I think your best bet would be to claim Part IV tenancy

It's automatic.

Daith

TheChizler wrote: »

It's automatic.

I thought you had to give notice of claiming this? If it's automatic that's good to hear though!

Although I did mean tell the landlord that you were claiming it.

stephenmario

Daith wrote: »

Yes but there is a reason you can't increase rent after the start of a fixed term lease. The landlord made an error and while it's in the law it's a sucky thing to do given the lease is up next week.

OP however he does have the law on his side. I think your best bet would be to claim Part IV tenancy so you're not tied to a fixed term lease.

Thanks. I still think it's madness the landlord can up the rent a month into a fixed term lease, telling me as I'm about to sign it that week and I'll be losing my deposit if I refuse the increase.

How do I claim Part IV tenancy?

Daith

stephenmario wrote: »

Thanks. I still think it's madness the landlord can up the rent a month into a fixed term lease, telling me as I'm about to sign it that week and I'll be losing my deposit if I refuse the increase.

Yes I think while the landlord is technically correct it is a ****ty situation.

stephenmario wrote: »

How do I claim Part IV tenancy?

Just inform your landlord. However you should really read up on what Part IV means (http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html). Ring Threshold or ask here obviously.

You would need to give 56 days notice if you intend to leave so you'd have to pay for Oct at the increased rent. However you wouldn't be tied to a lease and could claim back your despoit after the 56 days.

Again though be sure about the Part IV and that you know the pros and cons.

Michael D Not Higgins

Daith wrote: »

Yes but there is a reason you can't increase rent after the start of a fixed term lease. The landlord made an error and while it's in the law it's a sucky thing to do given the lease is up next week.

OP however he does have the law on his side. I think your best bet would be to claim Part IV tenancy so you're not tied to a fixed term lease.

Do you have a basis for this claim? Also as I pointed out, the landlord is giving the correct notice, and including it as a part of the lease before the lease is signed.

FishOnABike

stephenmario wrote: »

My question is then, Do I have to give this notice when the landlord has given only a weeks notice of the increase?

Technically, yes. You should issue the landlord a notice of termination at least 56 days in advance if you intended to leave at the end of the fixed term lease and between 3 months and 1 month before the end of the current fixed term lease if you intended to stay.

The deferral of the increase for one month in the proposed new lease could be to ensure the landlord complies with the need to give 28 days notice of rent.

One thing to near in mind is that if you continue under a part iv tenancy the landlord can still increase the rent to the market rate once in any 12 month period (with proper notice). You will be paying the same rent whether under a fixed term lease or part iv tenancy as the increase is included in the terms of the proposed fixed term lease and there's plenty of time for the landlord to issue notice of the increase if you give notice of your intent to stay under part iv.

Under the circumstances there would be no rental loss to the landlord if you decide to stay (either under a new fixed term lease or part iv) without having given notice of your intent between 3 and 1 months in advance.

Daith

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Do you have a basis for this claim? Also as I pointed out, the landlord is giving the correct notice, and including it as a part of the lease before the lease is signed.

Yes it's technically correct but still a ****ty situation.

Michael D Not Higgins

Daith wrote: »

Yes it's technically correct but still a ****ty situation.

Well if the landlord gave the correct notice to line it up with the start of the new lease, how does that change things?

Daith

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Well if the landlord gave the correct notice to line it up with the start of the new lease, how does that change things?

It would have give the OP 28 days to find a place and reclaim his deposit. Instead the OP ends his tenancy within a week.

Michael D Not Higgins

Daith wrote: »

It would have give the OP 28 days to find a place and reclaim his deposit. Instead the OP ends his tenancy within a week.

The tenancy continues until notice period is served. The OP would still have to give the correct notice for 3 years in situ either way (unless otherwise agreed mutually by both OP and the landlord for a shorter notice period).

Daith

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

The tenancy continues until notice period is served. The OP would still have to give the correct notice for 3 years in situ either way (unless otherwise agreed mutually by both OP and the landlord for a shorter notice period).

Or the OP has a current fixed term lease already
So the tenancy would have ended with the fixed term lease, the OP would have known 28 days beforehand that the increase would happen giving him more time to find a place.

If the OP isn't on a fixed term lease the yes it doesn't make a difference.

scrimshanker

Daith wrote: »

It would have give the OP 28 days to find a place and reclaim his deposit. Instead the OP ends his tenancy within a week.

The OP does not end his tenancy within a week. The OP can choose to decline to sign a new lease, stay on as a part 4 tenant, give the required 8 weeks notice of termination of tenancy - during which he pays the higher rent for October - and then leaves with deposit intact... Simple

Daith

scrimshanker wrote: »

The OP does not end his tenancy within a week. The OP can choose to decline to sign a new lease, stay on as a part 4 tenant, give the required 8 weeks notice of termination of tenancy - during which he pays the higher rent for October - and then leaves with deposit intact... Simple

Yes I have suggested this?

My point being ideally the 28 days notice should happen before the end of the current lease (if he is on a fixed term lease of course)

TheChizler

Daith wrote: »

I thought you had to give notice of claiming this? If it's automatic that's good to hear though!

Although I did mean tell the landlord that you were claiming it.

Give notice at the end of a lease if you plan on staying on (or possibly leaving) as it's good practice but all the rights and protections of part 4 automatically apply once you're there 6 months until your 4th (4 and a half maybe? Can't remember) year when it starts over from the original 6th month mark.

scrimshanker

Daith wrote: »

Yes I have suggested this?

My point being ideally the 28 days notice should happen before the end of the current lease (if he is on a fixed term lease of course)

Yeah but it doesn't leave the OP in a worse position. In your suggestion, the OP would have an additional month at the higher rate

Also, the point is that although the fixed lease is ending, the tenancy doesn't end until proper notice has been given and served as part 4 already exists.

Daith

scrimshanker wrote: »

Also, the point is that although the fixed lease is ending, the tenancy doesn't end until proper notice has been given and served as part 4 already exists.

The tenancy ends at the end of the fixed term lease.

marmurr1916

stephenmario wrote: »

This is partly what I feel is going on. the Landlord wanted to increase the rent but didn't inform us in time and is now doing it a month into the lease to say notice has been given.



I've never given a months notice about staying on, so no I did not give notice about extending the lease. I'm happy to move out as I'm not a fan of the Landlord. I would like my deposit back and I feel the landlord will try to keep it by saying he's done nothing wrong giving notice of the increase a month before the increase and that I was in the wrong because I didn't give notice about not extending the lease.

How much is your deposit? A month's rent? Just stay in the place during September without paying any rent. The landlord can use the deposit to cover the rent shortfall. If your deposit is equal to the amount of rent you owe, you're not out anything. If the deposit is higher, then you're out a few quid, if it's lower you're up a few quid. If you're worried about a reference just give a friend's mobile number to the new prospective landlord.

All this playing by the rules nonsense isn't going to get you anywhere.

Act like the typical amateur Irish landlord, break as many rules as you can get away with, and carry one regardless!

TheChizler

Also OP if you were to just up and leave today you wouldn't necessarily lose your entire deposit, the landlord has to make a reasonable effort to find a new tenant within a reasonable amount of time, so can only take pro rata rent out of your deposit up to that reasonable point. What's reasonable is up to the PRTB but the landlord can't just leave the house empty and treat the deposit as your rent.

Of course I'm not recommending you do this; they just can't take your deposit without good reason.

athtrasna

Marmurr1916 advocating illegal activity is not permitted on this forum. A tenant cannot legally withhold rent as you have suggested.

scrimshanker

Daith wrote: »

The tenancy ends at the end of the fixed term lease.

A part 4 tenancy has already existed since halfway into the first 12 month lease. That doesn't cease to exist simply because the fixed term ends.

Daith

scrimshanker wrote: »

A part 4 tenancy has already existed since halfway into the first 12 month lease. That doesn't cease to exist simply because the fixed term ends.

It certainly does. The tenant doesn't have to make use of the Part 4 tenancy. It's a fixed term lease with a fixed end date.

Sarn

Part IV works for the landlord as well. The tenancy doesn't end until the appropriate notice is given.

testaccount123

Daith wrote: »

It certainly does.

Nope.

Daith

Sarn wrote: »

Part IV works for the landlord as well. The tenancy doesn't end until the appropriate notice is given.

You've given the landlord 12 months notice that you intend to end the lease in 12 months time.

How much more does the landlord need?

Graham

Daith wrote: »

It certainly does. The tenant doesn't have to make use of the Part 4 tenancy. It's a fixed term lease with a fixed end date.

It is necessary for tenants to serve a Notice of Termination (NOT) where they do not intend to stay on after the expiry of the fixed term. The period of notice required should be calculated in accordance with Section 66.

Source: http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

Daith

Graham wrote: »

Source: http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy

I stand corrected.