Croke Park,Haddington Road,Lansdowne Rd Hours

ethical

Croke Park,Haddington Road,Lansdowne Rd Hours? As a teacher ,what was your input? Or were you told that you hadn't any! Take what you get and do not upset anyone!

katydid

ethical wrote: »

Croke Park,Haddington Road,Lansdowne Rd Hours? As a teacher ,what was your input? Or were you told that you hadn't any! Take what you get and do not upset anyone!

I don't really understand what you're asking.

deiseindublin

I presume OP is asking if there was any formal discussion among the staff about when the hours would be done, a few days in early August, blocks of time on half days, 1 hour most weeks etc.

implausible

We decided at a staff meeting before the summer. Has to be done by consensus, doesn't it?

r93kaey5p2izun

We get to vote on whether to do a full day before term begins but other than that no say. We agreed the first year at a staff meeting before summer but the principal wasn't happy with the result so we've never had a staff meeting since and we get no more input.

GSOIRL

At the moment Post Primary teachers have no LRA hours and hopefully the members of both the TUI and the ASTI will vote against the LRA and end these ridiculous hours that were agreed to under Croke Park. They will end in June 2016 if LRA is rejected. Unfortunately 10,000+ members of the INTO decided to vote to continue these hours so they are stuck with them until 2018.

If you have a vote. Vote NO to the LRA

ethical

It is interesting to see all your responses.CP hours should be done with the consensus of all the teaching staff,is there not a circular saying same? Yet some school staff sit down like adults and iron out a work schedule where the majority of teachers and management agree to work in harmony whereas in other situations CP hours are used as a stick to beat the teaching staff with,to have a hold over staff by the principal!The emergency is well and truly over and we should be like the 'others' and oppose the chains that are holding us.The morale amongst the teaching profession is very ,very poor at present and its no wonder with the working conditions we are forced to work with.

doc_17

We agree on them at our staff meeting and we have plenty of good soldiers who wouldn't let it happen any other way!

Principals not discussing them with their staff is against the spirit of concencous that is supposed to surround those hours.

I don't know what I'll do with the vote. Need to research it as there are still some questions that I don't know the answer to such as are we still getting the 1500 for S&S. But given the Croke Park hours still being there I'll probably go against it. And adding on another 6 hours of S&S while at the same time removing payment was really callous so I won't forget that in a hurry.

solerina

We had 6 Croke parks hours today....painful but glad they are out of the way. We have another 2 hours scheduled next Monday and debate arose over whether these should start immediately after school ends or 20 mins later. I assume as one min after the bell is technically your own time that the meeting should be scheduled to start immediately, ie at 3.50 not 4.00. Any one know for sure ????

Moody_mona

solerina wrote: »

We had 6 Croke parks hours today....painful but glad they are out of the way. We have another 2 hours scheduled next Monday and debate arose over whether these should start immediately after school ends or 20 mins later. I assume as one min after the bell is technically your own time that the meeting should be scheduled to start immediately, ie at 3.50 not 4.00. Any one know for sure ????

Start immediately, for sure

r93kaey5p2izun

solerina wrote: »

We had 6 Croke parks hours today....painful but glad they are out of the way. We have another 2 hours scheduled next Monday and debate arose over whether these should start immediately after school ends or 20 mins later. I assume as one min after the bell is technically your own time that the meeting should be scheduled to start immediately, ie at 3.50 not 4.00. Any one know for sure ????

http://www.asti.ie/croke-park-agreement-how-will-it-work/croke-park-questions-and-answers/

Immediately.

However that's ignored in my school and union has not managed to resolve the issue. We do an hour a week for 30 weeks starting 10 minutes after the bell. That amounts to 5 hours that could be ticked off this pointless detention if it was being done properly.

katydid

solerina wrote: »

We had 6 Croke parks hours today....painful but glad they are out of the way. We have another 2 hours scheduled next Monday and debate arose over whether these should start immediately after school ends or 20 mins later. I assume as one min after the bell is technically your own time that the meeting should be scheduled to start immediately, ie at 3.50 not 4.00. Any one know for sure ????

Our teaching day ends at 4.30. Our meetings start at 4.30.

There's bad enough feeling about it. Management would by lynched if they tried to pull a stunt like that. As it is, everyone ups and leave at 5.30 on the dot, even if the principal is in mid sentence.

As you can imagine, the meetings are not very productive.

katydid

ethical wrote: »

It is interesting to see all your responses.CP hours should be done with the consensus of all the teaching staff,is there not a circular saying same? Yet some school staff sit down like adults and iron out a work schedule where the majority of teachers and management agree to work in harmony whereas in other situations CP hours are used as a stick to beat the teaching staff with,to have a hold over staff by the principal!The emergency is well and truly over and we should be like the 'others' and oppose the chains that are holding us.The morale amongst the teaching profession is very ,very poor at present and its no wonder with the working conditions we are forced to work with.

I don't think there is any situation where a harmonious solution can be worked out. After all, it is Teacher's Detention, and the rules about it having to be outside school hours, being all-school, etc. are not conducive to harmony.

Some solutions may be less confrontational than others, but we must never stop opposing this unproductive and pointless detention.

spurious

Wouldn't you wonder what training in staff relations or basic human psychology the gobdaw that came up with the Croke Park hours had?
One of the most counter-productive measures ever. A triumph for ineptitude.

katydid

spurious wrote: »

Wouldn't you wonder what training in staff relations or basic human psychology the gobdaw that came up with the Croke Park hours had?
One of the most counter-productive measures ever. A triumph for ineptitude.

For me, the worst thing about it is that it is a slap in the face for the unpaid hours given by teachers willingly. The education system has lost a valuable resource; the goodwill and time of thousands of teachers.

doc_17

Mark Scary Gear wrote: »

http://www.asti.ie/croke-park-agreement-how-will-it-work/croke-park-questions-and-answers/

Immediately.

However that's ignored in my school and union has not managed to resolve the issue. We do an hour a week for 30 weeks starting 10 minutes after the bell. That amounts to 5 hours that could be ticked off this pointless detention if it was being done properly.

I don't know what time you finish classes at but 1 hour after that your Croke Park are done. At the minute you guys are all
allowing yourselves to be taken for a ride. Just get up and go! It really is black and white. Have the union not sent a letter to that effect to your principal?

r93kaey5p2izun

doc_17 wrote: »

I don't know what time you finish classes at but 1 hour after that your Croke Park are done. At the minute you guys are all
allowing yourselves to be taken for a ride. Just get up and go! It really is black and white. Have the union not sent a letter to that effect to your principal?

Yes the union have spoken with the principal! I don't know why the permanent staff don't just walk out. A third of us are not on full hours though so not much we can do. I work in the most miserable school. Morale is so low. It used to be a happy place but everyone's very beaten down now.

solerina

Mark Scary Gear wrote: »

Yes the union have spoken with the principal! I don't know why the permanent staff don't just walk out. A third of us are not on full hours though so not much we can do. I work in the most miserable school. Morale is so low. It used to be a happy place but everyone's very beaten down now.

Could ye hold a union meeting, all agree to leave after 60mins...even if management think that's 50 mins....safety in numbers. Why stay 70 mis of you don't have to ?
Thanks for the link by the way !!

katydid

solerina wrote: »

Could ye hold a union meeting, all agree to leave after 60mins...even if management think that's 50 mins....safety in numbers. Why stay 70 mis of you don't have to ?
Thanks for the link by the way !!

If they're anything liek our union meetings, three people will show up.

RobM569

I know the hours are compulsory however I'm a new teacher in the school and one of the agreed evenings doesnt suit me as I have tickets booked to a show. Is there anyway I can get excused that evening?

Also most of the hours have been arranged on the same evening as the NQT workshops, so do I have to miss my NQT workshops to go to these ridiculous extra hours?

Also if you are on a job share contract doesn't it mean you only have to do half of the 33 hours? So I can just skip evenings that don't suit?

Thanks!

katydid

RobM569 wrote: »

I know the hours are compulsory however I'm a new teacher in the school and one of the agreed evenings doesnt suit me as I have tickets booked to a show. Is there anyway I can get excused that evening?

Also most of the hours have been arranged on the same evening as the NQT workshops, so do I have to miss my NQT workshops to go to these ridiculous extra hours?

Also if you are on a job share contract doesn't it mean you only have to do half of the 33 hours? So I can just skip evenings that don't suit?

Thanks!

I doubt if the tickets for a show would cut much ice, to be honest.

The NQT training is an interesting one, though. I'd talk to management about that.

Do you have full hours? If not, you don't have to do all the CP hours, so maybe something can be organised around that.

acequion

ethical wrote: »

It is interesting to see all your responses.CP hours should be done with the consensus of all the teaching staff,is there not a circular saying same? Yet some school staff sit down like adults and iron out a work schedule where the majority of teachers and management agree to work in harmony whereas in other situations CP hours are used as a stick to beat the teaching staff with,to have a hold over staff by the principal!The emergency is well and truly over and we should be like the 'others' and oppose the chains that are holding us.The morale amongst the teaching profession is very ,very poor at present and its no wonder with the working conditions we are forced to work with.

Here here! Totally well said Ethical and I agree 100% I only came back on these threads tonight and yours is the only post to strike a chord. The conditions are indeed dreadful and how much more are we to take!

byhookorbycrook

Tickets for a show won't really work as an excuse.

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Tickets for a show won't really work as an excuse.

But if the person is on half hours, who decides what CP hours they must do and what they don't need to do?

I'd say just tell them you can't make it due to family reasons or prior arrangements. I think if there's any mutterings of you having to do that particular one then ask what's the story with the 'half hours' position and how do you know which ones you should be attending? Put the ball in their court (in a respectful way)... at least then you can plan!

Our school are grand if you're not on full hours, you just make whatever ones you can as long as you make up the time. Also if prior arrangements have been made before the meetings are decided then a bit of slack is given.

Who really checks up on all this stuff anyway, sure the school has to sign off in good faith but it's not as if the dept. do inspections and nit-pick over who was and wasn't present and whether they 'had a note' to excuse themselves.

What are the sanctions for not doing the full hours?

joebloggs32

RobM569 wrote: »

I know the hours are compulsory however I'm a new teacher in the school and one of the agreed evenings doesnt suit me as I have tickets booked to a show. Is there anyway I can get excused that evening?

Also most of the hours have been arranged on the same evening as the NQT workshops, so do I have to miss my NQT workshops to go to these ridiculous extra hours?

Also if you are on a job share contract doesn't it mean you only have to do half of the 33 hours? So I can just skip evenings that don't suit?

Thanks!

Your requirements to do cp hours are on a pro rata basis ie 16.5 hours for a job sharer.

joebloggs32

Mark Scary Gear wrote: »

http://www.asti.ie/croke-park-agreement-how-will-it-work/croke-park-questions-and-answers/

Immediately.

However that's ignored in my school and union has not managed to resolve the issue. We do an hour a week for 30 weeks starting 10 minutes after the bell. That amounts to 5 hours that could be ticked off this pointless detention if it was being done properly.

If you do one hour per week how are parent teacher meetings and open night accounted for? Before cp hours there were still a a few parent teacher meetings during school time but now these are done after school. We get six hours for these extra two meetings after school and four hours for open night.

r93kaey5p2izun

joebloggs32 wrote: »

If you do one hour per week how are parent teacher meetings and open night accounted for? Before cp hours there were still a a few parent teacher meetings during school time but now these are done after school. We get six hours for these extra two meetings after school and four hours for open night.

Open night doesn't count but it's not compulsory and not everyone is involved. We don't do any extra PT meetings outside the required amount.

The other three hours are just tacked on to extend two evenings a year for guest speakers usually.

katydid

Mark Scary Gear wrote: »

Open night doesn't count but it's not compulsory and not everyone is involved. We don't do any extra PT meetings outside the required amount.

The other three hours are just tacked on to extend two evenings a year for guest speakers usually.

Open night can count. We count our graduation night.

I'm surprised you hold an event that involves anyone giving of their free time at an open evening, given all the extra work you're forced to do for nothing. That's the kind of thing that undermines the little opposition we can make to to Teacher's Detention.

r93kaey5p2izun

katydid wrote: »

Open night can count. We count our graduation night.

I'm surprised you hold an event that involves anyone giving of their free time at an open evening, given all the extra work you're forced to do for nothing. That's the kind of thing that undermines the little opposition we can make to to Teacher's Detention.

I know it can count but it doesn't in my school. It's not difficult to get volunteers when one third of the staff are on part time hours. Few permanent teachers involved other than A post holders.

katydid

Mark Scary Gear wrote: »

I know it can count but it doesn't in my school. It's not difficult to get volunteers when one third of the staff are on part time hours. Few permanent teachers involved other than A post holders.

It can if the staff and management decide that it counts.

I know what you mean about part time staff. Isn't it awful that management has such a hold over part time staff?

rainbowtrout

RobM569 wrote: »

I know the hours are compulsory however I'm a new teacher in the school and one of the agreed evenings doesnt suit me as I have tickets booked to a show. Is there anyway I can get excused that evening?

Also most of the hours have been arranged on the same evening as the NQT workshops, so do I have to miss my NQT workshops to go to these ridiculous extra hours?

Also if you are on a job share contract doesn't it mean you only have to do half of the 33 hours? So I can just skip evenings that don't suit?

Thanks!

If you are only on half hours you only have to do half the Croke Park hours. Work it so the ones you want to miss are the ones that don't suit you.

Also inservice done outside of school hours (once it is certified) can count for up to 5 CP hours. Don't know if NQT training is counted under this, or if it is also pro-rata.

Personally, I would avoid mentioning the tickets to the show at all and just pick that as one of your non attendance evenings. It won't go down well, we all have places we'd rather be than wasting our lives away doing CP hours.

Once you find your feet in the school in the next week or two, get talking to some of the part time teachers and ask them what the general approach is to the pro rata hours in the school from the previous year.

mirrorwall14

We only get recognition for three hours for CPD rainbowtrout, I think it's school dependent.

spurious

Gebgbegb wrote:

What are the sanctions for not doing the full hours?

Would love to know this. We had serial non attenders, while the rest of us fools sat there trying to keep awake.

rainbowtrout

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We only get recognition for three hours for CPD rainbowtrout, I think it's school dependent.

Well it's definitely up to five but 'with agreement of local management'. We are allowed use the full five.

oneright

I was handed a list today in work after doing 5 hours Cp, I had to highlight the ones I wanted to attend up to 16 hours cause I'm on half time.

katydid

spurious wrote: »

Would love to know this. We had serial non attenders, while the rest of us fools sat there trying to keep awake.

l would like to know that too. We have to stand in line like bold children and sign in, but I've never seen anything done about the serial non attenders.

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

l would like to know that too. We have to stand in line like bold children and sign in, but I've never seen anything done about the serial non attenders.

ya, no one wants to do it, but it makes a mockery of it if some teachers swan in and out and can do what they like.

r93kaey5p2izun

oneright wrote: »

I was handed a list today in work after doing 5 hours Cp, I had to highlight the ones I wanted to attend up to 16 hours cause I'm on half time.

That seems like a fair and sensible system.

We get no prior notice what each meeting will involve. Part timers have to meet individually with the principal to agree which to attend. He just says that it will be "favourable" for next year's hours if we attend them all so you have people on 3 hour contracts doing 33 CP hours.

doc_17

Mark Scary Gear wrote: »

That seems like a fair and sensible system.

We get no prior notice what each meeting will involve. Part timers have to meet individually with the principal to agree which to attend. He just says that it will be "favourable" for next year's hours if we attend them all so you have people on 3 hour contracts doing 33 CP hours.

3 hour contracts? The ultimate slap in the face.

r93kaey5p2izun

doc_17 wrote: »

3 hour contracts? The ultimate slap in the face.

We have two 1.5 hour contracts!!

oneright

Mark Scary Gear wrote:

hours

this is unbelievable, coercing people with the possibility of a job. That's just mean.

rainbowtrout

Mark Scary Gear wrote: »

That seems like a fair and sensible system.

We get no prior notice what each meeting will involve. Part timers have to meet individually with the principal to agree which to attend. He just says that it will be "favourable" for next year's hours if we attend them all so you have people on 3 hour contracts doing 33 CP hours.

That's ridiculous. Staff who are not on full hours in my school usually do the first day back as it gets 6 hours out of the way. They pencil in the relevant parent teacher meetings, open night, and then see how many hours more they have to make up and pick from what's left.

evolving_doors

katydid wrote: »

It can if the staff and management decide that it counts.

I know what you mean about part time staff. Isn't it awful that management has such a hold over part time staff?

I think 'open night' can take on a very different meaning when student numbers start to drop in a school and jobs are on the line.

katydid

Gebgbegb wrote: »

I think 'open night' can take on a very different meaning when student numbers start to drop in a school and jobs are on the line.

That doesn't mean management should blackmail staff into giving their time for nothing when they could at least make it count towards CP.

As a FE college, we are constantly on the hunt for students, and never know from year to year how many we'll have. Even now, with the school years started, we don't know for sure. That is the norm for us.

We run an open evening, and it counts for CP hours.

mtoutlemonde

katydid wrote: »

That doesn't mean management should blackmail staff into giving their time for nothing when they could at least make it count towards CP.

I was working in a school where the principal sent a letter to all teachers regarding attendance at open evening. I can't remember exactly as it was a few years ago (before CP - God knows what they get now) that stated that if the number of students fell it would result in loss of teaching positions or transfer to other schools. And I should note that this school is always over subscribed.

gaiscioch

Quick question: if you're doing a postgrad in the subject you teach can any of those hours give you exemption from some of the 33 Croke Park hours under CPD or further education? If so, how many hours?

From New agreement on Croke Park/ 33 hours (12 May 2014):

"The remaining Croke Park hours must be used for some of all of the following:... appropriate further education activities (for teachers involved in further education as outlined in the agreement)"

"as outlined in the agreement"?

katydid

gaiscioch wrote: »

Quick question: if you're doing a postgrad in the subject you teach can any of those hours give you exemption from some of the 33 Croke Park hours under CPD or further education? If so, how many hours?

From New agreement on Croke Park/ 33 hours (12 May 2014):

"The remaining Croke Park hours must be used for some of all of the following:... appropriate further education activities (for teachers involved in further education as outlined in the agreement)"

"as outlined in the agreement"?

I would assume that "appropriate further education activities" refers to activities concerning the FE sector, rather than the CPD of the teacher involved. In that case, I would also assume that "as outlined in the agreement" refers to how the FE sector is defined.

I have never heard of anyone being able to tie personal CPD in to CP hours.

mirrorwall14

We have an agreement in our school that up to 3 hours of Croke Park hours can be used for CPD. Must be documented and receipt received by principal. Appropriate CPD though is usually education related, like education centre courses etc. I'm not sure a subject specific would be approved. It would be up to your principal.

katydid

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

We have an agreement in our school that up to 3 hours of Croke Park hours can be used for CPD. Must be documented and receipt received by principal. Appropriate CPD though is usually education related, like education centre courses etc. I'm not sure a subject specific would be approved. It would be up to your principal.

Gosh, we were clearly
and definitively told that no personal CPD could be set against CP.

It seems like different managements interpret the directions differently...

mirrorwall14

We are secondary and you are FE I think Katydid? I don't know if the rules are different for you guys. We have a croke park hours committee who sit down every year and decide where the hours are going. It includes both staff and management

The option for the 3 hours is as follows (individual teachers choice, signed off by management)
1. 3 hours CPD under an approved course. This is generally an evening course in an Edcuation centre thats way more hours than 3 but we only get 3 recognised
2. Sit on one of three committees and meet for 3 hours total a year (SSE Committee, Green Schools and ?? Can't remember the third off the top of my head)
3. 3 hours of S and S

Management do a check and you must have done either 1 or 2 by March or you are signed up for the extra S and S

rainbowtrout

katydid wrote: »

Gosh, we were clearly
and definitively told that no personal CPD could be set against CP.

It seems like different managements interpret the directions differently...

I think the circular says 'with the agreement of management'. Some principals do like to prolong the after school torture. God forbid you might be doing some useful CPD for your CP hours.