Gross Misconduct and what to say

LegacyUser

Hello,

I had a call into my seniors office about an issue arising awhile ago but only coming to their attention this week. I was been suspended immediately with full pay pending an investigation (of which I received the results of yesterday).

Firstly, I am guilty. My misconduct was not intentional, nor was it in anyway an attempt to hurt the company but I fully accept that my naivety in the situation has brought negative media to my company, not in the main, but within the circles that some of their bigger clients reside.

i won't be fighting the gross misconduct other than to state it was not intentional and at no point had I intended it to go as far as it did but in hind sight I should have seen it coming and alerted them sooner.

While I hope that my punishment is a final warning, I get the impression that it is likely to be a dismissal due to the tone of the report. My meeting with the MD and the intermediary is on Monday. i have contacted a solicitor and I am just waiting to hear back from them.

I am just be looking for advice on what to say and do, nothing legal as I am not fighting the charges, just peoples opinion on what to say. I have worked for the company for over 7 years and this is the first mark against me, I am a good worker, often giving overtime and working out of hours without being asked or bragging. in the past year I have completed projects that have saved the company over 50% in their day to day operating costs, and am currently leading two more projects that will again reduce operating costs in terms of raw materials needed.

i am valuable but my gross misconduct has potentially damaged the companies name (although unproven as of yet) and has certainly damaged the managing directors trust in me.

Has anyone else been this guilty and managed to retain their job, any advice on what to say.

I have written down a list of benefits that my employment will continue to bring to the company, and if it i their position that the relationship is not recoverable, I am willing to come in for a short period of time to train up someone in my projects as I basically work alone at the minute and it would be quite a set back to have someone come in to it fresh.

Best case scenario, I am retained with a final warning caveat. Potentially they will say goodbye to me on Monday evening and that is that. I am in a niche industry so its quite possible that I will be unemployable in my field again.

Has anyone experience of what happens in cases like this, I am being civil and have no aim to rock the boat. What generally happens? I have given everything to the company over the past few years but understand their position if I am let go.

Is there any chance of getting my notice period etc. might give me a chance to get a job of some sort as my child is in creche, and if I pull him out, that means no time free to look for work or get to interviews.

davo10

Anonymous Joe wrote: »

<SNIP> No need to quote entire block of original post

What often seals an errant employees fate is their attitude, employers will often want to get rid of the employee as soon as possible if their attitude is bad in addition to their misconduct. I must say that yours strikes me as being mature, honest and contrite. Without knowing how bad the deed was, if you were my employee and you came into a meeting with that type of honesty, I'd just give you a warning and tell you not to do that again. Good luck.

3DataModem

My advice is to say

"I utterly regret the lapse in judgment and its affect on the company. I ask for my work history to date to be taken into account when deciding the sanction, and hope for the opportunity to rebuild the companies trust."

And then remind them of this.. "I have worked for the company for over 7 years and this is the first mark against me, I am a good worker, often giving overtime and working out of hours without being asked or bragging. in the past year I have completed projects that have saved the company over 50% in their day to day operating costs, and am currently leading two more projects that will again reduce operating costs in terms of raw materials needed."

That's about all you can do to save the situation.

The best of luck.

Lux23

I don't know what you said, but if you said something to a journalist and they used it in some form then I can understand their concerns. Like Davo says, I would think the best thing to admit total responsibility and they may decide to keep you on. It is a real shame that someone who seems to be a valuable asset could be on the dole next week. Best of luck with it OP, I feel for you.

thefinalstage

Admitting liability is a slippery slope. If it is seriously damaging to the company and way outside of your job scope I'm sure the company might have some recourse for compensation. Read your contract and listen to the solicitor.

lawred2

ah come on... you can't write an OP like that and not fill us in on what the gross misconduct was...

With regards to advice; don't think you need any. You're already on the right path.

And worst comes to worst; at least you'll leave the place looking them straight in the eye and being a man about it.

lawred2

thefinalstage wrote: »

Admitting liability is a slippery slope. If it is seriously damaging to the company and way outside of your job scope I'm sure the company might have some recourse for compensation. Read your contract and listen to the solicitor.

ooooo I suppose there's always that

Mr.Carter

" negative media to my company"

Did you do this while at work or outside of work hours?

Was it just a random comment picked up and published?

Skybox

I'm of the view that you are in quite an interesting position. The fact that it is a niche industry and you are well experienced plays to your advantage. I think the suggestions of earlier posters of saying what you have said in your OP could be a good step towards keeping your job.

On the other hand, if it is a niche industry and you do lose your job, would you consider going out and working for yourself? there are plenty of agencies and schemes available to help entrepreneurs who want to start their own business. Could certainly be worth looking into.

Keep us posted on how Monday goes.

LeBash

It really depends on what the damage to the company is. It may be a case they will need to let you go to save face or maintain some kind of workable relationship with clients.

Someone here said to be honest. If I was in you're position I would go into the meeting and not say a word but just listen. They may actually want to give you enough rope to hang yourself. I'd play it how you feel it but by not saying anything they may not have grounds to let you go. If it's all negative in the meeting the bring the positive attitude and positive stories and most of all an honest remorse, which by the way you're post here looks like a very good place to start.

Best of luck with it though.

Irish_Elect_Eng

LeBash wrote: »

It really depends on what the damage to the company is. It may be a case they will need to let you go to save face or maintain some kind of workable relationship with clients.

Someone here said to be honest. If I was in you're position I would go into the meeting and not say a word but just listen. They may actually want to give you enough rope to hang yourself. I'd play it how you feel it but by not saying anything they may not have grounds to let you go. If it's all negative in the meeting the bring the positive attitude and positive stories and most of all an honest remorse, which by the way you're post here looks like a very good place to start.

Best of luck with it though.

The approach advised above is on possible way to go, but it does have a risk. If you listen for too long and they state that they are going to terminate you, well then you are on the back foot if you want to make an honest apology and appeal as outlined above. It is easier to persuade them not to fire you, than to persuade them to withdraw a decision to fire you.

LegacyUser

Well I went to the meeting, went through my points, pointed out why I was still a valuable employee etc.

It was reasonably pleasant for the first half although i was falling apart inside. After I added in my points, the host of the meeting went through a list of questions, and genuinely seemed to ask me for anything to hang on to, to at least show it was not intentional.

The unfortunate thing is that, despite not being intentional, the litany of grievous errors made were even bigger than I had surmised.

At the end I just wanted to vomit. He did tell me that he would be setting aside tomorrow to review all the evidence and statements made again and draw up his own conclusions, and again asked me if there was anything beneficial to me to mail it in.

Alas, the only thing I suggested he look for in my company e-mail. turns out that makes everything look worse again.

I suppose my last question on the matter, as I know I will be dismissed, is if it is know for companies to sue former employees for gross misconduct.

I have nothing to take but I figure they now may sue me to show that my conduct was not that of the companies or part of its work. Will I be lucky and the getting rid of me be enough for them? Has it happened before?

lawred2

what on earth were you at?

kfrp

Might be easier to provide more advice if you provided a little more detail about what happened.

5rtytry56

Anonymous Joe wrote: »

I suppose my last question on the matter, as I know I will be dismissed, is if it is know for companies to sue former employees for gross misconduct.

I have nothing to take but I figure they now may sue me to show that my conduct was not that of the companies or part of its work. Will I be lucky and the getting rid of me be enough for them? Has it happened before?

Yes, I know of 1 case before. In 2007. And it will happen again because the climate of Irish private sector Industrial Relations predisposes this sort of stuff happening.

ahnowbrowncow

Anonymous Joe, if that is your real name, I've nothing to add other than to say good luck and keep us updated as I'm interested in hearing how this plays out.

LegacyUser

I was asked did my company perform a service awhile ago by someone I know. I said we didn't but I could as it was simple. I provided the service.

This then became involved in a legal case and instead of backing out I went along. I thought I had made it clear the work was mine and not the companies but it is quite clear I did not and at one point even referred to the company by name.

The service is something that my company do not do and unintentionally this service may potentially have a negative affect on future customer relations.

It was just pure stupidity but I am guilty.

lawred2

moonlighting basically

ScouseMouse

Good luck with this buddy. I think if its as bad as you say, all you can do is grovel and apologise quietly to the boss and hope they keep you. Explain you understand you messed up, and hope he accepts it.

Good Luck

LegacyUser

lawred2 wrote: »

moonlighting basically

Not just moonlighting though. If it was moonlighting, I would be OK, just a warning not to do it again and maybe a final warning if I was linked to the company through no fault of my own.

Alas, it would appear the linking of me to the company is, while unintentional, still my fault.

I was just wondering in the past, would a company have taken the employee to court or would they typically let them go and if the link was made by a client, state, that the employee was not working on behalf of the company and has since been fired.

Is there precedent, there is no financial gain to bringing me to court but maybe there is some gain in terms of credibility.

I mean, in terms of punishment, i have pretty much made myself unemployable in a field that I have worked in for over 10 years and worked quite well in at that.

hernie

What does your solicitor think? You mentioned the solicitor would be at the meeting with you. They would know the full story and have expertise in these matters

Lux23

So basically you provided a service that your company doesn't provide because it would affect their reputation with clients?

Godge

Don't think they can sue you.

However, if they are sued, they can try to put liability on you.

Was it an isolated incident of moonlighting? If not, they won't take the risk of taking you back.

D20903

OP: if its a recent sports related case I wouldn't fancy your chances of being left out the pending legal action.

Stheno

Anonymous Joe wrote: »

I was asked did my company perform a service awhile ago by someone I know. I said we didn't but I could as it was simple. I provided the service.

This then became involved in a legal case and instead of backing out I went along. I thought I had made it clear the work was mine and not the companies but it is quite clear I did not and at one point even referred to the company by name.

The service is something that my company do not do and unintentionally this service may potentially have a negative affect on future customer relations.

It was just pure stupidity but I am guilty.

So basically by providing this service, it was inadvertently attributed to your company and a legal case resulted as part of it, to which your company are now linked?

If I've read that right, I think you might struggle to be kept on.

saabsaab

Probably best to get the best legal advice you can and follow it., these things can take a life of their own and not work out as either intended, don't assume that all the power is in their hands. Protect yourself.

Mrs OBumble

But even if you were kept on, they'd never trust you again - you might come to regard being kept as a fate worse than being fired.

Probably the best you can hope for is some sort of negotiated settlement, which involves you saying what they want you to say if they get sued, and leaving voluntarily with a bland reference.

It's definitely legal advice time - you've probably posted too much here already.

seamus

5rtytry56 wrote: »

Yes, I know of 1 case before. In 2007. And it will happen again because the climate of Irish private sector Industrial Relations predisposes this sort of stuff happening.

Do you have any links?

I would have thought that the scope for this is very narrow, and assuming the employee was acting legally as an agent of the company and broadly within their authority, the company cannot pursue for damages.

That is, for example, if a hotel employee's job was to light candles before every guest arrives, accidentally places one too close to a plant and burns the whole hotel down, then the hotel could not sue the employee? As they would be basically suing themselves?

Of course things are different if the employee is breaking the law or acting outside of their authority.

5rtytry56

No links. Happened over 13 years ago. Employee concerned had successfully hacked the stats software in the call center to give him better stats than he had earned. This translated to him receiving a nicer bonus in his paycheck.went on for a number of months. Suffice to say he was in deep sh|t when management found out which it did.

LegacyUser

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

But even if you were kept on, they'd never trust you again - you might come to regard being kept as a fate worse than being fired.

I think you may be right, I am certain they won't but part of me is now thinking that maybe for my own good in the long run. I am pretty certain a few people I work with have been told. I did love it there though, no one to blame but myself though.

Probably the best you can hope for is some sort of negotiated settlement, which involves you saying what they want you to say if they get sued, and leaving voluntarily with a bland reference.

It's definitely legal advice time - you've probably posted too much here already.

Indeed, in fact I would settle for that quite happily at this point, stop the feeling of wanting to vomit all day and all night.

Thanks everyone for the views and insights, it is much appreciated.

sparkling sea

Anonymous Joe wrote: »

Hello,

I had a call into my seniors office about an issue arising awhile ago but only coming to their attention this week. I was been suspended immediately with full pay pending an investigation (of which I received the results of yesterday).

Firstly, I am guilty. My misconduct was not intentional, nor was it in anyway an attempt to hurt the company but I fully accept that my naivety in the situation has brought negative media to my company, not in the main, but within the circles that some of their bigger clients reside.

i won't be fighting the gross misconduct other than to state it was not intentional and at no point had I intended it to go as far as it did but in hind sight I should have seen it coming and alerted them sooner.

While I hope that my punishment is a final warning, I get the impression that it is likely to be a dismissal due to the tone of the report. My meeting with the MD and the intermediary is on Monday. i have contacted a solicitor and I am just waiting to hear back from them.

I am just be looking for advice on what to say and do, nothing legal as I am not fighting the charges, just peoples opinion on what to say. I have worked for the company for over 7 years and this is the first mark against me, I am a good worker, often giving overtime and working out of hours without being asked or bragging. in the past year I have completed projects that have saved the company over 50% in their day to day operating costs, and am currently leading two more projects that will again reduce operating costs in terms of raw materials needed.

i am valuable but my gross misconduct has potentially damaged the companies name (although unproven as of yet) and has certainly damaged the managing directors trust in me.

Has anyone else been this guilty and managed to retain their job, any advice on what to say.

I have written down a list of benefits that my employment will continue to bring to the company, and if it i their position that the relationship is not recoverable, I am willing to come in for a short period of time to train up someone in my projects as I basically work alone at the minute and it would be quite a set back to have someone come in to it fresh.

Best case scenario, I am retained with a final warning caveat. Potentially they will say goodbye to me on Monday evening and that is that. I am in a niche industry so its quite possible that I will be unemployable in my field again.

Has anyone experience of what happens in cases like this, I am being civil and have no aim to rock the boat. What generally happens? I have given everything to the company over the past few years but understand their position if I am let go.

Is there any chance of getting my notice period etc. might give me a chance to get a job of some sort as my child is in creche, and if I pull him out, that means no time free to look for work or get to interviews.

Get proper legal advice from a very good labour/employment law solicitor or barrister

Just so you know (this is from Citizens Information) "The Labour Relations Commission has published the Code of Practice: Grievance and Disciplinary Procedures (pdf) which states that employers should have written grievance and disciplinary procedures and they should give employees copies of these at the start of their employment. Under the unfair dismissals legislation employers are required to give the employee in written notice of the procedures to be followed before an employee is dismissed. This must be done within 28 days of entering the contract of employment" Has your employer complied with this Code of Practice?

Falling on your sword may seem like the right thing now but you may live to regret this ? Also you appear to have learnt from your mistake, so what benefit is it to anyone if you don't try your best to hold on to your job?

If your employers agree to allow you to continue to employ you, they cannot then subject you to unfair treatment. These things often blow over, fight for your job if you actually want to keep it. You could ring NERA for some advice or speak to someone from FLAC asap - some one who actually understand labour law. Good luck

LegacyUser

Well that's all done. All very amicable but it was cited that the breach in trust could not be overcome and I have my notice with a few days to reply if I disagree.

I won't as I can't see any benefit other than dragging it out.

Off the record I was told that if I resigned before the deadline, it would be accepted. Not sure what to make of it.
Is that something that happens normally or are they just being nice, who knows.

Time to get the CV in order

5rtytry56

Are you sure you want to drag it out?

iwillhtfu

They're being nice in allowing you tender you resignation. Should a future employer contact them they can say you resigned as opposed to telling them your were dismissed for gross misconduct.

Were I you I'd be packing up my desk in the morning.

RosieJoe

I think it is better to quit than being sacked

Hollister11

If I was ever in a misconduct heating at work. If walk in, take the mick, get my wages and leave.

saabsaab

It looks like you don't want to fight the company over this and a resignation is the best way out for both parties. Perhaps get a new start elsewhere is best but I don't think that the offer is being 'nice' more a case of you left case closed and no comeback legally re unfair dismissals or incorrect procedures re firing process. Best of luck..

Senecio

I would take them up on the offer of resigning. It suits both parties. You may still be able to gain employment in your chosen field. They know they have the security of never hearing from you again should you decide at a later date to take an unfair dismissal case up.

Win-win from where I sit.

blindsider

@AnonymousJoe: You have my sympathies. Not an easy situation you've found yourself in.

I think I'd go the resignation route - for the reasons outlined above.

There is one disadvantage. You will not be entitled to Social Welfare for around 9 weeks. (If they fire you, you can claim benefits immediately.)

You should still register with SW immediately, and if you get a sympathetic Case officer, s/he may be lenient re the qualifying period.

Hope things work out for you!

LegacyUser

I am going down the resignation route I think, probably the best choice.

blindsider wrote: »

There is one disadvantage. You will not be entitled to Social Welfare for around 9 weeks. (If they fire you, you can claim benefits immediately.)

My understanding is that gross misconduct puts you in the same position as resigning, in that regard I think it makes no difference, upto the case officer, maybe I am wrong, either way, it will be a long 9 weeks if I get nothing else.

Tubberadora

Anonymous Joe wrote: »

I am going down the resignation route I think, probably the best choice.



My understanding is that gross misconduct puts you in the same position as resigning, in that regard I think it makes no difference, upto the case officer, maybe I am wrong, either way, it will be a long 9 weeks if I get nothing else.

You are right in your understanding. Gross misconduct is treated the same as walking out from the social welfares perspective unless you were taking an unfair dismissal case.

Wanderer78

tough one op. best of luck with things

Cold War Kid

Hollister11 wrote: »

If I was ever in a misconduct heating at work. If walk in, take the mick, get my wages and leave.

Yeah burning bridges and risking no reference is something you *definitely* don't want to be doing.

OP, apply like mad for other jobs now, to prevent a gap - you might get hired before you're gone from this place, which will look best of all.
If they ask for a reference from this place though, what will they say? (Have you asked them?) Hopefully they'll say more than "Anonymous Joe worked here from xyz to September 2015" - although maybe putting down referees from previous jobs will be enough. That will probably be legit actually because people often don't put down referees from their current job as they don't want to risk them finding out they're looking elsewhere.

kidneyfan

Don't resign. Though you haven't specified the nature of the problem there is no evidence that it is a matter for which you should be dismissed as opposed to receiving a warning.

Don't accept liability is writing/

Don't sign anything.

Speak to a solicitor. This company don't seem to be following proper procedures.

davo10

kidneyfan wrote: »

Don't resign. Though you haven't specified the nature of the problem there is no evidence that it is a matter for which you should be dismissed as opposed to receiving a warning.

Don't accept liability is writing/

Don't sign anything.

Speak to a solicitor. This company don't seem to be following proper procedures.

Did u read the thread?

LegacyUser

Just checking back in to give a final report.

So I got a letter to sign, accepting my resignation. I read through it and it insisted that I get legal advice. They told me I could try citizens inforation. Went in, citizens info were great but told me that the letter stated legal advice and they would not in good faith accept this is what they had given.

Went to a solicitor who told me I should have came earlier, he didn't really get the idea that I didn't want to sue or drag it out. Anyway, he told me that from the wording they never had any intention of letting me back in should the investigation have went my way. In his own experience, as stupid as I was it should have been a final warning only. Had I come to him earlier it would have been more in my favour but I was never going back to work there from the start of the proceedings. Disappointing, but it is what it is.

This said, maybe it's for the best, I don't think my direct line manager would have worked with me anyway. I was happy to hear from work of the several people ( many I would have not expected too) who stood up for me and asked that I be kept on.

Needless to say, all is signed and accepted. Managed to get a job today. Different area, less money but I am looking forward to my start date like a child to Christmas.

Thanks for all the words of wisdom. Some lessons hard learned by myself, but more importantly, well learned.

alan partridge aha

Anonymous Joe wrote: »

Just checking back in to give a final report.

Well the very best of luck in your new job, their loss(old employer) is your new company's gain. Well done and keep positive.

blindsider

OP - best of luck.

Put it down to experience - now move onwards and upwards!

(And don't forget the lessons learned.)

Silverbling

I have read the whole thread

so if I have it right, you have a niche skill that your company did not provide but you could as a quick nixer, they got very annoyed that one of their employees could provide what they could not and even worse someone ratted that you could and it ended up on the grapevine, you were a very bold employee who made a mistake and then held his hands up and said sorry after 7 years and they said bye bye?

Why are you not starting a business in the niche you could provide? you sound like someone who is ready to be self employed with an asset that will be paid for

Eoin

Silverbling wrote: »

I have read the whole thread

so if I have it right, you have a niche skill that your company did not provide but you could as a quick nixer, they got very annoyed that one of their employees could provide what they could not and even worse someone ratted that you could and it ended up on the grapevine, you were a very bold employee who made a mistake and then held his hands up and said sorry after 7 years and they said bye bye?

Why are you not starting a business in the niche you could provide? you sound like someone who is ready to be self employed with an asset that will be paid for

It sounds like it was more serious than that.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96746909&postcount=17

LegacyUser

alan partridge aha wrote: »

Well the very best of luck in your new job, their loss(old employer) is your new company's gain. Well done and keep positive.

Thank you, my situation reminds me of that time you shot Forbes Glen. Obviously less serious but equally unintentional.

blindsider wrote: »

OP - best of luck.

Put it down to experience - now move onwards and upwards!

(And don't forget the lessons learned.)

I couldn't even if I wanted too. I suppose I never thought about how linked I was too my work. The last few weeks have been tough. The number of times I have gotten up and dressed, Sent my kids out the door and then literally shut down as I had no idea what to do. My new company are going to get far more than their money's worth.

Silverbling wrote: »

Why are you not starting a business in the niche you could provide? you sound like someone who is ready to be self employed with an asset that will be paid for

If only that's the way the world worked but IP etc. is not mine. I do have a few ideas for a business that I will potter about on in the background but it is completely unrelated to my current or former roles.

Eoin wrote: »

It sounds like it was more serious than that.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=96746909&postcount=17

Indeed it was.

I am not normally an optimistic person. 5 years ago I would have fallen apart. I imagine I would have a bottle of whiskey rather than a cup of tea and be staring at the walls.

Thanks again for all the words of wisdom. If nothing else, I won't look back in a few years and wonder did lies make it worse. This way I found out I had been valued, that no matter what I said I was gone.

I hope I don't have to post here again anonymously but it has been a great help.

Cheers.