Totally change of career

marty555

Hi all. I'm in my mid 30's and for as long as I can remember I always wanted to fly for a living. Having done some looking into it it seems to be huge money to get started. Am I missing something ??? I have a family and all that goes with it. But don't want to live my life always regretting not going for my dream if it's possible.
Any help advice would be great.

smurfjed

Have you asked yourself why you want to fly for a living? What exactly attracts you to the profession?

Considering that it will take you 100,000 euro to train yourself before you can apply for what is now a slightly above minimum wage job, can you inflict that upon your family?

marty555

The cost is my biggest issue ! As for why, to be honest I just love flying, I have taken lessons on and off for quite a good few years now. This is something I really want to do, it's the financial side of things that I have the problem with. So I'm wondering is their any other way??? To get to the job I want.

smurfjed

As for why, to be honest I just love flying

Flying for love and flying as a profession are two completely different things.

There are a number of pilots who post here, some fly the Stobart Air ATR's, some fly the huge Emirates B777s, they will each give you their stories. But to honest, if I was your age with 100,000, I would buy a franchise and try to make money for my future, then buy an aircraft for "fun flying".

Unfortunately when you start to make money in flying, its not all about "yanking and banking".....

marty555

Is their any other way of getting to where I want to go !! Without the massive financial burden??

smurfjed

Have you tried the Aer Lingus cadet scheme or the Aer Corp?

marty555

Air corp don't meet the age limit!!

W0LFMAN

Try playing a flight simulator using the oculus rift. It will surprise you. Make sure you wear good heaphones. (War Thunder is perticular good)

smurfjed

Perfect solution... all the 3d fun of flying...... but there again what about the flight attendants and the fun of visiting different places, or the drama created by last minutes MEL's or enroute weather changes,or waking up when your body says no, or when fatigued ?

marty555

3D fun to anyone who wants it fair enough. But I want the real thing

smurfjed

I have to admit that i got a free ride thanks to a wonderful gentlemen in Weston and a bygone era.

Unfortunately i dont think that those days exist anymore. The present idea of a right seat pilot is an airline cash-cow!

marty555

Have to say I'm impressed with the put off attempt at every step here !!!

Ronald2015

I have a friend who did the course . It cost 100k plus . The original course cost 100k . He then had to live abroad while completing is hours so his accomodation and expenses were another 40k . Once he qualified he got a job with Ryanair . They charged him 10k to complete their training and 1k for hid uniforms. .He now hates it . He said you become like a taxi driver and it becomes Mondane as the system is set so you don't do much manual flying . Also no pilot is employed directly By Ryanair . Each pilot sets up there own company and invoice Ryanair directly so effectively your a contractor with little job security .The chances are for the first 5 years you are going to be located in some city in Europe in the middle of nowhere . Unless you get a Cadetship with aer linges forget it ! Maybe use should look into becoming an air traffic controller ? . By the way the pilot I know only makes 60k .

Pat Dunne

marty555 wrote: »

Hi all. I'm in my mid 30's and for as long as I can remember I always wanted to fly for a living. Having done some looking into it it seems to be huge money to get started. Am I missing something ??? I have a family and all that goes with it. But don't want to live my life always regretting not going for my dream if it's possible.
Any help advice would be great.

If I could ask you some very direct questions? As I had to ask myself these very same questions many years ago.

Do you have €200k in your own (not joint) savings?
Because this will be the cost of your qualifying courses and tuition fees. Along with those of running a household before you start earning a very modest salary as a junior pilot, approaching 40 years of age.

Does your wife support you in your dream?
Because without your good lady's support; well you catch my drift

If you can genuinely answer yes to these questions. Go for it!

But remember it is still only a job, one with something you enjoy doing, but none the less it is only a job afterall. I know this from personal experience, as I am extremely fortunate to work in an area which I genuinely enjoy and appreciate. But at the end of my working day I park it, leave in the office and come home to my family.

marty555

Thank you for info. As for the earnings that's 20k more than I earn right now and I'm in this job for the last 15 years.

b757

Ronald2015 wrote: »

I have a friend who did the course . It cost 100k plus . The original course cost 100k . He then had to live abroad while completing is hours so his accomodation and expenses were another 40k . Once he qualified he got a job with Ryanair . They charged him 10k to complete their training and 1k for hid uniforms. .He now hates it . He said you become like a taxi driver and it becomes Mondane as the system is set so you don't do much manual flying . Also no pilot is employed directly By Ryanair . Each pilot sets up there own company and invoice Ryanair directly so effectively your a contractor with little job security .The chances are for the first 5 years you are going to be located in some city in Europe in the middle of nowhere . Unless you get a Cadetship with aer linges forget it ! Maybe use should look into becoming an air traffic controller ? . By the way the pilot I know only makes 60k .

Tell your friend to quit and give the job to someone who will be grateful to have it.

smurfjed

Tell your friend to quit and give the job to someone who will be grateful to have it.

Where??

It used to be Emirates... but alas no more

marty555

How do other people manage with the financial side of things ! As that that is me issue !!

endacl

marty555 wrote: »

How do other people manage with the financial side of things ! As that that is me issue !!

They start younger, with less commitments, and borrow.

pepe the prawn

You can go integrated and spend anywhere from €50k up to €130k depending on which flight school you choose. This means you will finish up with a frozen ATPL, in other words you will have a CPL, MEIR and atpl theoretical exams passed.

MCC/JOC course, ballpark €4500.

Some airlines make you pay for your own type rating, anywhere from €15k up to €35k.

Alternatively, you could do it modular, which means you will end up with the same licences at the end but will have done it one module at a time. End result is the very same licence and ratings.

Ballpark cost estimate:

PPL €13,000

ATPL exams €6,000

Hour building (100hrs €10,000 - €15,000)

CPL/MEIR €16,000 - €35,000 depending on which school you go for.

Factor in a few thousand extra for class 1 medical, resit fees for the exams if you don't pass them all first time, additional training..

nothing in aviation is cheap, it's a very hard industry to break into.

Also, you could get your PPL, hour build, ATPL exams and a CPL and then get an instructors rating, you'd get paid for instructing and would get to fly for a living. You won't become a millionaire on those wages though, and it can sometimes be seasonal work.

marty555

So if I'm reading this right ! So far the advice is unless i have 150/200k that I can put my hands on !!!!!! My dream is a total pipe dream.

Pat Dunne

marty555 wrote: »

So if I'm reading this right ! So far the advice is unless i have 150/200k that I can put my hands on !!!!!! My dream is a total pipe dream.

I am afraid so.

smurfjed

ATPL exams €6,000

Wow.... i did these at a time where everyone studied and went to Bobby Powers for performance or Dennis Slattery for Navigation..... we didn't have to pay close to 1,000 let alone 6,000

marty555

Their has to be another way !! What young person wants to put themselves into that much death or even has the means to do it ????

b757

marty555 wrote: »

Their has to be another way !! What young person wants to put themselves into that much death or even has the means to do it ????

There is, modular. No need to spend upwards of 60,000..

Do some research for a couple of weeks. Cheapest place to do PPL, ATPL, Hour Building and then CPL/MEIR. EASA, not FAA.

Will take slightly longer and you have to be more motivated but it is very doable.

pepe the prawn

smurfjed wrote: »

Wow.... i did these at a time where everyone studied and went to Bobby Powers for performance or Dennis Slattery for Navigation..... we didn't have to pay close to 1,000 let alone 6,000

Yep.. €4500 for the ground school and course material plus €115 x 14 for the IAA exam fees...

b757

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Yep.. €4500 for the ground school and course material plus €115 x 14 for the IAA exam fees...

AFTA? The quote they gave me was significantly lower.

pepe the prawn

marty555 wrote: »

So if I'm reading this right ! So far the advice is unless i have 150/200k that I can put my hands on !!!!!! My dream is a total pipe dream.

Not necessarily. Read my post on the last page. It can be done significantly cheaper. It's still not cheap, but it's certainly nowhere near €200k.

smurfjed

Sometimes it works out.... a neighbour paid for his son to go to Embry Riddle, followed by some instruction time, then he paid for him to join Lion Air Indonesia for 500 hours, after which he stayed there until he reached 2500 hours, then joined the same airline as the father as a B777 First Officer.

Total outlay by father = around 150,000 USD
Sons income first year following release= 150,000 USD

All at the age of 25........

marty555

Cheers for advice.

Pat Dunne

marty555 wrote: »

Their has to be another way !! What young person wants to put themselves into that much death or even has the means to do it ????

Your average medical student, your average trainee Solicitor/trainee Barrister, your average young trainee Pharmacist, almost forgot your average young trainee Pilot. Do I need to continue?

Each of these professions need young students who have access to and be prepared to take on serious student loans or have parents who are prepared to take on these expenses and debts on their behalf.

I don't want burst your bubble, but have you asked yourself, how much will you need, to put your own kids through college/university on an average 250 to 550 points requirement course, in say 10 or 15 years time? I won't even dare mention studying for a "Master's.

Growler!!!

marty555 wrote: »

Their has to be another way !! What young person wants to put themselves into that much death or even has the means to do it ????

They don't put themselves in debt. I've flown with many first officers who had their parents re mortgage their house to get them through flight school!

Its shocking sometimes the amount that was spent. And they are the ones who were lucky enough to get a flying job....

marty555

Thanks to all for their input. If uses have anymore advice tips of places to go !! Please let me know. As the more info I have the better I can try and formulate a plan.

pepe the prawn

marty555 wrote: »

Thanks to all for their input. If uses have anymore advice tips of places to go !! Please let me know. As the more info I have the better I can try and formulate a plan.

Best advice I could give is go and get your PPL and take it from there. Depending on what part of the country you are in there is possibly a flight school or flying club in your area that you could train at.

endacl

marty555 wrote: »

Thanks to all for their input. If uses have anymore advice tips of places to go !! Please let me know. As the more info I have the better I can try and formulate a plan.

You could wait till Dublin Bus are hiring again? Same job but with less wings?

:pac:

marty555

Lol thanks, but I'll pass on that one.

yer man!

I'm in sorta the same mindset as yourself, wanting to change career into the aviation sector. I'm taking it in baby steps at the minute as I'm still quite young and trying to save as much money as I possibly can. First thing I plan on doing is joining the local flying club to get a feel for it and then maybe go abroad for a few weeks to get the PPL. Once I've those goals achieved then I'll see if it's something I want to progress with. Maybe you should look at doing something similar.

Xpro

Dont be discouraged by all the negatives.

Slowly get into flying, start by PPL anyways, and see how things develop. PPL is nice achievement anyways, and you will see if you like it or not!

Forget about integrated course unless its sponsored with a job at the other end. Ridiculous money extracted out of you.

You can do it in Ireland, or you can do it abroad a bit cheaper.

Modular so far total: around 50K ( + Type rating , whatever that be)

Time to do it: Just over 2 years

Friend of mine is 36, completed his training earlier this year, for the above mentioned sums.

Good news came this summer, interview, assessment and finally a job!
Starting his Ryanair Type training in November.

Good Luck Chaps,

marty555

I will go back to local flight school today and see what we can do ! And thanks for advice

MoeJay

If, and it's a big if, you really want to get into the commercial end of things, go and make sure you meet the requirements of a class 1 medical. Without that, all the money in the world won't help!

There are other websites chock full of info on all the paths you can take, do a search here too as this question has been asked before.

Unfortunately, while people believe they should be able to fly around Europe for less than the cost of the bus into town, the job will be nothing more than that - a job. For a lot of people, it's a hard slog, you have to go in eyes wide open.

marty555

At this stage I feel like the next question is warranted! So are there actually any pilots in here that love their job and would say totally go for it. ?????

MoeJay

But seriously, you say you have a family and "all that goes with it." So with that in mind:

Can you afford to take off work to train full time to get the licence?

Have you enough money saved to be able to meet your domestic requirements, mortgage etc while training?

If you go to the bank for a loan will they give it to you?
Will you be able to afford the extra repayments over and above your existing financial commitments?

If you do the training part time and/or in a less financially challenging way, can you move abroad to work?

If not, is that because of domestic commitments and could you commute to another country for your job?

That's not about doing down the job, or the ambition to take it on, but these are the responsibilities you have and you have to know the answer before you go anywhere.

Even if you got a fully sponsored cadetship (which the questions above aren't really aimed at) you are still not working for a year and you need to take that into consideration.

martinsvi

literally the cheapest way to get into airlines is by getting into one of their cadetships. Usually what that means is that airline has a deal with some prestigious school, where an integrated/MPL course will cost around 100k, you will have to sponsor some 25k yourself and then certain percentage will be deducted from your pay once you start working. Cadetships usually are exposed to huge competition, in English speaking companies you have applications coming in nearly from all over the world thus some 30k applications for some 90 places in a program is a norm - chances of you being picked - in the area of 0.3%. You might have way better chances if you know German, French, Spanish or any other major language fluently to allow yourself to be considered for Lufthansa etc cadetships.

The self-sponsored routes will cost you anywhere between 60 to 130k as others already pointed out, I'm not going to repeat that.,
but I didn't notice anyone else bringing up this question so I will shoot it anyway -

do you realize that, unless you magically get into Aerlingus cadetship, which -let's be honest - will not happen - you will have to leave Ireland to work somewhere else? Best case scenario - you get a position in UK - but a lot of guys finishing their CPL are happy to go to Africa or Asia for their first job, because even getting in Ryanair is by no means easy... Is your family ok with that?

Irish Steve

smurfjed wrote: »

Wow.... i did these at a time where everyone studied and went to Bobby Powers for performance or Dennis Slattery for Navigation..... we didn't have to pay close to 1,000 let alone 6,000

Ahhh Slattery's Academy, they were the days, a week of hand written exams, none of this modern multi choice computer stuff.

I remember it well, I ended up doing it twice, as in those days, you had to do the CPL, and then at a later date with some hours in place, the Frozen ATPL. Then there was the Tech Type with Alan Smyth, and he's still a close friend, and still working in aviation.

I digress..............

For the OP, you've done some private flying, which is a fundamental part of the picture, probably in something like a small Cessna or similar. There was a time when commercial flying was similar, the difference being that the actual aircraft was a lot bigger. Those days have very much ended, and without wishing to rain on your parade, modern commercial flying is nothing like private flying any more.

If you are very lucky, you may get 10 minutes of actual hands on flying in a sector, but it will depend on the Standard operating policy of the airline, and in most of them, the beancounters have managed to persuade the management that the automation operates more cheaply than letting the crew keep their (very important) skills up to date, so in the worst case scenario, the automation is switched on a couple of minutes (or less) after take off, and only gets turned off again shortly before landing, and between those 2 events, you are effectively sitting there watching for abnormal indications, and making sure that the other crew member hasn't fallen asleep through either exhaustion or boredom.

A long time ago now, slightly older than yourself, I spent significant money on exactly the same dream, albeit that I went a different route, ( I had my own aircraft, a Piper PA39 light twin and used it to build hours while still working in "the day job", I had to do a lot of travelling around Europe for work) but due to circumstances out of my control (Gulf War) I never actually managed to get a paying job on a flight deck.

When I made my decision, there still were aircraft in commercial use that used a similar skill set to private flying (things like the Shorts 360), and as a PPL holder, I got to spend a lot of time on jump seats when flying as part of my work around Europe, and that was a factor in my decision.

Things have now changed very dramatically, the flight deck environment is very different, the automation does just about everything (until there's a problem), and the biggest problem now is keeping the skills that will be essential in an emergency sufficiently well honed to be of use if things go wrong for some reason.

There are very few jobs in commercial flying that are even close to PPL flying, and they are very much sought after, and usually have significant experience requirements to get into them, and they can be challenging to do.

So, what am I saying.

First, you need to be 110% committed to the plan, and so does everyone that is close to you.

Next, even if you do everything right, and get the relevant qualifications, there are no guarantees that there will be work available for you, so you MUST have a Plan B that will cover that eventuality.

You need to have a very clear plan of how you are going to get to your goal, and that you have the necessary finance to achieve it, and then some, as there can be issues along the way that cost, but can't be forseen.

You need to be VERY sure that the sort of commercial flying that is the norm today is what you are looking for, as there is now a massive difference between PPL flying and commercial flying.

I would suggest that you see if it's possible to get a session in a full flight simulator with an instructor, and spend some time "flying" in the way that is the norm with the airlines, you may be surprised at how different it is. Pre 9/11 it was relatively simple to get simulator time, but that all changed, I'm not sure if it's possible any more.

I'm not saying don't do it, but I guess that what I'm saying is be VERY sure that where you will end up is what you want, as the reality is that it might not be, and that would be a very expensive mistake to have made.

I've been close to aviation now for over 30 years, so I have quite a few friends that fly, and it's been interesting to see how many of them having achieved their goal have then flown for a few years, and then moved out of aviation into something completely removed from it, and from talking to them, their reasons have been varied.

I could go into a lot more detail, but that risks becoming boring, so I will just leave it there, and emphasise the issue you face, be VERY sure that the points I've raised are all covered and secure, only then can you make an informed decision.

Negative_G

Don't think I've seen it mentioned yet amongst the other posts but if you are considering an aviation career I would strongly advise you to undergo a full Class 1 Aviation medical. Will cost in the region of €650, depending on where you have the examination.

Tick this box first to make sure you are medically fit to pursue a career before investing any time and money in the flying side of things.

pepe the prawn

Irish Steve wrote: »

Ahhh Slattery's Academy, they were the days, a week of hand written exams, none of this modern multi choice computer stuff.

I remember it well, I ended up doing it twice, as in those days, you had to do the CPL, and then at a later date with some hours in place, the Frozen ATPL. Then there was the Tech Type with Alan Smyth, and he's still a close friend, and still working in aviation.

I digress..............

For the OP, you've done some private flying, which is a fundamental part of the picture, probably in something like a small Cessna or similar. There was a time when commercial flying was similar, the difference being that the actual aircraft was a lot bigger. Those days have very much ended, and without wishing to rain on your parade, modern commercial flying is nothing like private flying any more.

If you are very lucky, you may get 10 minutes of actual hands on flying in a sector, but it will depend on the Standard operating policy of the airline, and in most of them, the beancounters have managed to persuade the management that the automation operates more cheaply than letting the crew keep their (very important) skills up to date, so in the worst case scenario, the automation is switched on a couple of minutes (or less) after take off, and only gets turned off again shortly before landing, and between those 2 events, you are effectively sitting there watching for abnormal indications, and making sure that the other crew member hasn't fallen asleep through either exhaustion or boredom.

A long time ago now, slightly older than yourself, I spent significant money on exactly the same dream, albeit that I went a different route, ( I had my own aircraft, a Piper PA39 light twin and used it to build hours while still working in "the day job", I had to do a lot of travelling around Europe for work) but due to circumstances out of my control (Gulf War) I never actually managed to get a paying job on a flight deck.

When I made my decision, there still were aircraft in commercial use that used a similar skill set to private flying (things like the Shorts 360), and as a PPL holder, I got to spend a lot of time on jump seats when flying as part of my work around Europe, and that was a factor in my decision.

Things have now changed very dramatically, the flight deck environment is very different, the automation does just about everything (until there's a problem), and the biggest problem now is keeping the skills that will be essential in an emergency sufficiently well honed to be of use if things go wrong for some reason.

There are very few jobs in commercial flying that are even close to PPL flying, and they are very much sought after, and usually have significant experience requirements to get into them, and they can be challenging to do.

So, what am I saying.

First, you need to be 110% committed to the plan, and so does everyone that is close to you.

Next, even if you do everything right, and get the relevant qualifications, there are no guarantees that there will be work available for you, so you MUST have a Plan B that will cover that eventuality.

You need to have a very clear plan of how you are going to get to your goal, and that you have the necessary finance to achieve it, and then some, as there can be issues along the way that cost, but can't be forseen.

You need to be VERY sure that the sort of commercial flying that is the norm today is what you are looking for, as there is now a massive difference between PPL flying and commercial flying.

I would suggest that you see if it's possible to get a session in a full flight simulator with an instructor, and spend some time "flying" in the way that is the norm with the airlines, you may be surprised at how different it is. Pre 9/11 it was relatively simple to get simulator time, but that all changed, I'm not sure if it's possible any more.

I'm not saying don't do it, but I guess that what I'm saying is be VERY sure that where you will end up is what you want, as the reality is that it might not be, and that would be a very expensive mistake to have made.

I've been close to aviation now for over 30 years, so I have quite a few friends that fly, and it's been interesting to see how many of them having achieved their goal have then flown for a few years, and then moved out of aviation into something completely removed from it, and from talking to them, their reasons have been varied.

I could go into a lot more detail, but that risks becoming boring, so I will just leave it there, and emphasise the issue you face, be VERY sure that the points I've raised are all covered and secure, only then can you make an informed decision.

@OP, this ^^^ is probably the best advice on the thread. read it a few times and then start evaluating your position and intentions.

marty555

Totally agree the best one by far. Thank you for taking the time to post it.

deaddonkey15

pepe the prawn wrote: »

You can go integrated and spend anywhere from €50k up to €130k depending on which flight school you choose. This means you will finish up with a frozen ATPL, in other words you will have a CPL, MEIR and atpl theoretical exams passed.

MCC/JOC course, ballpark €4500.

Some airlines make you pay for your own type rating, anywhere from €15k up to €35k.

Alternatively, you could do it modular, which means you will end up with the same licences at the end but will have done it one module at a time. End result is the very same licence and ratings.

Ballpark cost estimate:

PPL €13,000

ATPL exams €6,000

Hour building (100hrs €10,000 - €15,000)

CPL/MEIR €16,000 - €35,000 depending on which school you go for.

Factor in a few thousand extra for class 1 medical, resit fees for the exams if you don't pass them all first time, additional training..

nothing in aviation is cheap, it's a very hard industry to break into.

Also, you could get your PPL, hour build, ATPL exams and a CPL and then get an instructors rating, you'd get paid for instructing and would get to fly for a living. You won't become a millionaire on those wages though, and it can sometimes be seasonal work.

You can get a PPL for a lot less than €13,000. More like 6 or 7k.

martinsvi

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

You can get a PPL for a lot less than €13,000. More like 6 or 7k.

a post like this without any pointers to specific schools is not very informative. I just completed my ppl in Ireland in one of the cheapest places I could find, got it done within 50 hours, counting it all up it's just short of 10k

Very similar prices now in USA as well due to bad exchange rate. There was a lad here who claimed to have found a school in Poland that will train him cheaper but before he comes back with a EASA PPL on his one hand and the bill in the other, it's just promises that may or may not come true

marty555

Where is the best place to train in this country ? For cost and instruction? I work in Dublin and live just outside Newry so traveling is not an issue.

logie101

marty555 wrote: »

Where is the best place to train in this country ? For cost and instruction? I work in Dublin and live just outside Newry so traveling is not an issue.

If you live in Newry head up to the ULster Flying Club in Newtownards.
Open 7 days a week and evenings, modern fleet, plenty of cross runaways and lots of instructors.