12 penalty points in one day

A friend of mine received 4 speeding fines in the post when he arrived home last Tuesday.

due to an injury he's temporarily doing delivers for a takeaway to pay the bills, while doing the deliveries, some how (how he didn't notice the camera at least once I don't know) within the space of an hour, on the same road, he racked up the 4 speeding offenses, that's 12 points straight on his licencee and automatic disqualification from driving for six months.

This seems harsh to me, but he was speeding so not much argument there.

There is a possibility that he wasn't driving the car on one of these offense and 3 of the points will go to the person that was driving the car, meaning no ban.

It states on citizensinformation.ie: that "Where you accumulate 12 points and are disqualified for a period of six months, the points which led to the disqualification are removed at the end of the 6 months."

My question is this, if my friend was to take the hit and be disqualified for six months, my understanding is that in February he would have no penalty points on his licence and if he never canceled his insurance presumably his premium wouldn't be affected, am I right in thinking that?

or will he have an endorsement on his licence after the disqualification that he is obliged to notify his insurance about?

Pov06

Relevant:

He will need to notify insurance about the points. He cannot hold an insurance policy with a disqualified licence.

Stheno

Tatiana Loud Pooch wrote: »

My question is this, if my friend was to take the hit and be disqualified for six months, my understanding is that in February he would have no penalty points on his licence and if he never canceled his insurance presumably his premium wouldn't be affected, am I right in thinking that?

or will he have an endorsement on his licence after the disqualification that he is obliged to notify his insurance about?

He will be obliged to tell his insurance at renewal, they usually ask if you have had any claims or convictions/points in the last three years.

He may struggle to get insurance tbh

Love Sminky Shorts, You're an Elephant!

I thought that might be the case, hypothetically if he were not to inform his insurance would they ever know?

I know this would make his insurance null and void and I wouldn't advise him to do it, nor would he, but I've heard of people just not telling the insurance company and nothing ever coming of it, presumably they have no way to check, or if they do, they don't?

Pov06

Tatiana Loud Pooch wrote: »

Love Sminky Shorts, You're an Elephant!

I thought that might be the case, hypothetically if he were not to inform his insurance would they ever know?

I know this would make his insurance null and void and I wouldn't advise him to do it, nor would he, but I've heard of people just not telling the insurance company and nothing ever coming of it, presumably they have no way to check, or if they do, they don't?

A relative of mine didn't disclose that they had lost their licence to the insurance company and they were able to keep a 10 year bonus.

It was really difficult actually explaining the 10 year NCB after being disqualified to the new insurance company but they ended up taking it.

You could chance it but I'd say it's not worth paying for insurance for a year and then you may not even be able to use the NCB.

If your friend crashes after not disclosing points they will pay out to the third party but they will chase your friend down to recoup the costs.

CiniO

IMO it's crazy in the first place that penalty points or disqualifications have effect on insurance premium.
I would love to see the statistics showing that people with more penalty points are more likely to cause an accident.
Have anyone ever see any statistics like that?

Eric Cartman

if they're already getting 12 , 15 /20 isn't going to break the bank , id try fight them altogether and see if he can somehow get 2-3 of them quashed.

To Elland Back

I doubt he told his insurers he was using the vehicle for takeaway delivery either, so I don't think he will disclose this

projectgtr

Tell your "friend" to make sure he was driving each time and it wasnt his partner one of the times, that would be the difference between a higher premium and disqualification

Pov06

CiniO wrote: »

IMO it's crazy in the first place that penalty points or disqualifications have effect on insurance premium.
I would love to see the statistics showing that people with more penalty points are more likely to cause an accident.
Have anyone ever see any statistics like that?

The same can be said for charging more on insurance premiums for people who have had an accident/claim in the last five years.

"Higher risk" is not a valid reason. Basic probability tells you that if an event occurred once then the likely hood (or risk) of it happening again is the same as before the event.

Eric Cartman

projectgtr wrote: »

Tell your "friend" to make sure he was driving each time and it wasnt his partner one of the times, that would be the difference between a higher premium and disqualification

could have also driven it to his foreign national mechanic who took it out for a test drive and got clocked twice before losing his job and going home to some other country.

projectgtr

Eric Cartman wrote: »

could have also driven it to his foreign national mechanic who took it out for a test drive and got clocked twice before losing his job and going home to some other country.

very true best to double check

slimjimmc

Stheno wrote: »

He will be obliged to tell his insurance at renewal, they usually ask if you have had any claims or convictions/points in the last three years.

He may struggle to get insurance tbh

Some insurers such as AXA (and I expect most) require you to notify them immediately not just at renewal.

Tatiana Loud Pooch wrote: »

Love Sminky Shorts, You're an Elephant!

I thought that might be the case, hypothetically if he were not to inform his insurance would they ever know?

I know this would make his insurance null and void and I wouldn't advise him to do it, nor would he, but I've heard of people just not telling the insurance company and nothing ever coming of it, presumably they have no way to check, or if they do, they don't?

Insurance companies have had access to a driver's penalty points from the NVDF for years. They were give additional access back in Aug 2014 which allows them see the reason for the points/endorsements (speeding, parking, etc). You can be sure they would use that info to assess risk and to prove you didn't comply with the policy if you lie.

maxwell smart

Think I remember when points were introduced Paddy Power did odds on which county the first person to get 12 points was going to come from.

I believe some very smart 'boi' in Waterford who was emigrating to the US put a large bet on Waterford and went past a speed camera enough times in the same day to ensure he got those 12 points and thus won that bet

Supergurrier

It's scary to think there is(was) actually somebody out driving whose observation is so poor they missed a bright red van 4 times in a row.

Chin up

delahuntv

Supergurrier wrote: »

It's scary to think there is(was) actually somebody out driving whose observation is so poor they missed a bright red van 4 times in a row.

Chin up

Some of the vans are now unmarked - they are also green, white and black as well as red.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

if they're already getting 12 , 15 /20 isn't going to break the bank , id try fight them altogether and see if he can somehow get 2-3 of them quashed.

Would he stand a chance? I doubt it and do you not run the risk of more points if you challenge, that probably wont apply in the scenario as he's maxed out on points :pac:

projectgtr wrote: »

Tell your "friend" to make sure he was driving each time and it wasnt his partner one of the times, that would be the difference between a higher premium and disqualification

It is genuinely a friend, I'd like to think this couldn't happen to me :cool:

Eric Cartman wrote: »

could have also driven it to his foreign national mechanic who took it out for a test drive and got clocked twice before losing his job and going home to some other country.

The real Eric Cartman couldn't have come up with a more convoluted plan

slimjimmc wrote: »

Some insurers such as AXA (and I expect most) require you to notify them immediately not just at renewal.


Insurance companies have had access to a driver's penalty points from the NVDF for years. They were give additional access back in Aug 2014 which allows them see the reason for the points/endorsements (speeding, parking, etc). You can be sure they would use that info to assess risk and to prove you didn't comply with the policy if you lie.

I'm yet to hear of one incident where this has happened, I don't doubt you, but would love to read or see an example of this, can you link me to any sources?

maxwell smart

maxwell smart wrote: »

Think I remember when points were introduced Paddy Power did odds on which county the first person to get 12 points was going to come from.

I believe some very smart 'boi' in Waterford who was emigrating to the US put a large bet on Waterford and went past a speed camera enough times in the same day to ensure he got those 12 points and thus won that bet

Clever girl

kippy

Tatiana Loud Pooch wrote: »

Would he stand a chance? I doubt it and do you not run the risk of more points if you challenge, that probably wont apply in the scenario as he's maxed out on points :pac:




It is genuinely a friend, I'd like to think this couldn't happen to me :cool:



The real Eric Cartman couldn't have come up with a more convoluted plan



I'm yet to hear of one incident where this has happened, I don't doubt you, but would love to read or see an example of this, can you link me to any sources?

Might not be an issue when getting a quote but if you try make a claim you can bet it will be an issue.

OP,
If your friend claims that someone else was driving on at least one of those occasions they need to be aware that the picture taken of the number plate is a zoomed in picture. They usually have on file the original picture which may show the driver. I've heard it being an issue.....

kippy

kippy wrote: »

Might not be an issue when getting a quote but if you try make a claim you can bet it will be an issue.

OP,
If your friend claims that someone else was driving on at least one of those occasions they need to be aware that the picture taken of the number plate is a zoomed in picture. They usually have on file the original picture which may show the driver. I've heard it being an issue.....

I did not know this, I've heard of numerous people passing points and again never heard of anybody getting caught, how sure are you of this?

Eric Cartman

Tatiana Loud Pooch wrote: »

Would he stand a chance? I doubt it and do you not run the risk of more points if you challenge, that probably wont apply in the scenario as he's maxed out on points :pac:




It is genuinely a friend, I'd like to think this couldn't happen to me :cool:



The real Eric Cartman couldn't have come up with a more convoluted plan



I'm yet to hear of one incident where this has happened, I don't doubt you, but would love to read or see an example of this, can you link me to any sources?

you stand nothing to lose by fighting it 12 is 12 the ban stays the same , may be worth a try .

but also its summer, if your mate happened to have loaned the car to a foreign friend he met down the pub, or his foreign mechanic or anyone with a licence really etc.. and that person wasn't going to be back in the next 3 years they wouldn't be at a loss along as they paid the fines.

Eric Cartman

Eric Cartman wrote: »

you stand nothing to lose by fighting it 12 is 12 the ban stays the same , may be worth a try .

but also its summer, if your mate happened to have loaned the car to a foreign friend he met down the pub, or his foreign mechanic or anyone with a licence really etc.. and that person wasn't going to be back in the next 3 years they wouldn't be at a loss along as they paid the fines.

Really, I honestly though this was a joke, this can actually work?

Edit*

Thinking about this more I understand now, it's that same as passing the points to anyone, only the person is out of the country so no effect to them. this is very clever and we have a few mechanic friends that have permanently emigrated recently and still hold Irish driving licences and I think one of them might have been driving the car.

DoctorStrange

So this guy
1. Doesn't know the speed limits on the roads he drives
2. Can't read / see the posted speed limit signs
3. Misses a speed van multiple times
4. May or may not have commercial insurance

And people are advising him to go to court and lie has way out of it

TBH I'd be happy enough not to be sharing the road with someone racing around with a car full of chicken balls not paying attention to what he's doing

cormie

It is harsh.

The whole purpose of penalty points is to give a gradual lesson and force people to become more aware of and improve their driving style.

If your friend ends up being disqualified by this, he's never had the opportunity to learn his lesson.

If this wasn't an automated camera system and he was caught, he would have known straight away. What's to say he actually stopped driving too within the 4 captures? I mean if a Garda had a speed gun and had a 3km view of a road, surely he can't do the driver 4 times saying he was speeding going past the red bush, the big tree, the green gate and the field with the donkey.

jay48

Have heard of just putting a foreign name and address on the form and it's forgotten about . Interesting point , if you had open drive insurance and you sent the four forms back on seperate days , so as not to attract attention , with four different names and licence numbers of people that are not from ireland but put your address down and paid the fines (mates over on holidays staying at your place) , would it be copped ?

cormie

cormie wrote: »

It is harsh.

The whole purpose of penalty points is to give a gradual lesson and force people to become more aware of and improve their driving style.

If your friend ends up being disqualified by this, he's never had the opportunity to learn his lesson.

If this wasn't an automated camera system and he was caught, he would have known straight away. What's to say he actually stopped driving too within the 4 captures? I mean if a Garda had a speed gun and had a 3km view of a road, surely he can't do the driver 4 times saying he was speeding going past the red bush, the big tree, the green gate and the field with the donkey.

Totally agree, there should be some sort of grace period between the time your first penalty is issued and when you can receive another, the 4 of them are all within the same hour, he was speeding, but come on...

DoctorStrange

DoctorStrange wrote: »

So this guy
1. Doesn't know the speed limits on the roads he drives
2. Can't read / see the posted speed limit signs
3. Misses a speed van multiple times
4. May or may not have commercial insurance

And people are advising him to go to court and lie has way out of it

TBH I'd be happy enough not to be sharing the road with someone racing around with a car full of chicken balls not paying attention to what he's doing

And I suppose you're a perfect angel on the roads? I don't condone dangerous driving in the least, and this Garda must be the hide and seek world champion for my friend not to have seen him, but going 5 or 10 miles over the speed limit hardly calls for a 6 month disqualification!

And with regards to the commercial insurance, I hope you never find yourself on hard times my friend.

antodeco

If they were different areas, then harsh lesson, but the fact it was the same place is severely unfair!

PeteK*

I think Class 1 or 2 insurance would cover doing deliveries and usually costs nothing more than normal insurance.

To Elland Back

PeteK* wrote: »

I think Class 1 or 2 insurance would cover doing deliveries and usually costs nothing more than normal insurance.

Doesn't

Stheno

Don't insurers now have access to the penalty points database?

Eric Cartman

Tatiana Loud Pooch wrote: »

Really, I honestly though this was a joke, this can actually work?

Edit*

Thinking about this more I understand now, it's that same as passing the points to anyone, only the person is out of the country so no effect to them. this is very clever and we have a few mechanic friends that have permanently emigrated recently and still hold Irish driving licences and I think one of them might have been driving the car.

even better if they have a foreign licence as nothing to apply to then .

blindside88

Tatiana Loud Pooch wrote: »

Would he stand a chance? I doubt it and do you not run the risk of more points if you challenge, that probably wont apply in the scenario as he's maxed out on points :pac:




It is genuinely a friend, I'd like to think this couldn't happen to me :cool:



The real Eric Cartman couldn't have come up with a more convoluted plan



I'm yet to hear of one incident where this has happened, I don't doubt you, but would love to read or see an example of this, can you link me to any sources?

Aviva definitely use their access to it. I've had a customers insurance canceled with them due to non disclosure of penalty points (when I worked in a brokers)

DoctorStrange

Tatiana Loud Pooch wrote: »

And I suppose you're a perfect angel on the roads? I don't condone dangerous driving in the least, and this Garda must be the hide and seek world champion for my friend not to have seen him, but going 5 or 10 miles over the speed limit hardly calls for a 6 month disqualification!

And with regards to the commercial insurance, I hope you never find yourself on hard times my friend.

No I'm no angel.

Yes I have fallen on hard times in the past.

If he thinks it's unfair he can plead his case in court.

How far over the limit should he be to get points?

Which other laws shouldn't apply if you fall on hard times?

DoctorStrange

DoctorStrange wrote: »

No I'm no angel.

Yes I have fallen on hard times in the past.

If he thinks it's unfair he can plead his case in court.

How far over the limit should he be to get points?

Which other laws shouldn't apply if you fall on hard times?

So you honestly think that its fair to go from 0 points to 12, for going 5 miles over the speed limit, on the same road in the space of an hour?

You'd be in a very small minority if you do.

If this was spaced out over a few days I'd say fair enough, as was already posted the system is there to teach you to drive safer, but how can you learn anything when a situation like this one arises? (again I don't know how he did not see the camera)

Regarding the insurance, you're right, he should have the correct insurance, but I think sometimes in life we bend the rules when it is necessary to get by. I don't even know if he has the correct insurance or not, he may very well have commercial insurance, that wasn't the point of this thread, so it would be "pointless" to continue to talk about that.

delahuntv

Eric Cartman wrote: »

even better if they have a foreign licence as nothing to apply to then .

Nope - a record of name and address is held and a floating file is kept. So if you have a UK licence, points are put against your name and address for 3 years.

jelutong

As a matter of interest,was the camera van parked in the same place for each set of penalty points?

blindside88

blindside88 wrote: »

Aviva definitely use their access to it. I've had a customers insurance canceled with them due to non disclosure of penalty points (when I worked in a brokers)

Was the policy canceled when they found out, or when the customer tried to claim?

jelutong

jelutong wrote: »

As a matter of interest,was the camera van parked in the same place for each set of penalty points?

Well he didn't see it/him or know anything about it till the penalties arrived in the door, but knowing the area and the place where it happened, I've seen a uniformed Garada on this road with a camera, never a van and always in the same spot, it is well hidden.

I nearly got done there myself the first time I saw him, I wasn't sure I didn't till no penalty arrived.

DoctorStrange

Tatiana Loud Pooch wrote: »

So you honestly think that its fair to go from 0 points to 12, for going 5 miles over the speed limit, on the same road in the space of an hour?

You'd be in a very small minority if you do.

If this was spaced out over a few days I'd say fair enough, as was already posted the system is there to teach you to drive safer, but how can you learn anything when a situation like this one arises? (again I don't know how he did not see the camera)

Regarding the insurance, you're right, he should have the correct insurance, but I think sometimes in life we bend the rules when it is necessary to get by. I don't even know if he has the correct insurance or not, he may very well have commercial insurance, that wasn't the point of this thread, so it would be "pointless" to continue to talk about that.

I'll agree that he was very unlucky.

I'd imagine if it did go to court he'd get some points and be asked to make a donation to the poorbox

Stheno

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/penalty-point-holders-must-come-clean-to-insurers-30480872.html

From 2014 ten main insurers have access to the database of points, I was working with an insurance client recently and they also had access.

blindside88

Tatiana Loud Pooch wrote: »

Was the policy canceled when they found out, or when the customer tried to claim?

When the client signed the proposal form stating they had no penalty points the insurer checked and called to advise the policy was being cancelled. I'm not sure whether they are doing this for all clients or if the client had been with them previously and he flagged up for them

slimjimmc

Stheno wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/penalty-point-holders-must-come-clean-to-insurers-30480872.html

From 2014 ten main insurers have access to the database of points, I was working with an insurance client recently and they also had access.

They've had basic access (ie number of points) since 21/12/2012 but were given full access (ie the types of offences) in 2014.
http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2013/varadkar-gives-insurance-companies-full-access-penalty-point-database

Stheno

slimjimmc wrote: »

They've had basic access (ie number of points) since 21/12/2012 but were given access to the types of offences in 2014.
http://www.dttas.ie/press-releases/2013/varadkar-gives-insurance-companies-full-access-penalty-point-database

Not much escape then unless you commit fraud as has been suggested multiple times on this thread.

Yes it's harsh the op was caught, sorry I mean their friend, but honestly to not see a camera four times in the space of a few hours is ridiculous. You can't get prosecuted if it's a guard on the side of the road with a hairdryer type thing unless they stop and warn you afaik, so it was offically recorded and there will be photos of the driver and car.

I freely admit I exceed the speed limit on motorways, but in the likes of a 50 or 60 zone, I slow right down, they are lethal for speed traps.

Ronin247

Stheno wrote: »

. You can't get prosecuted if it's a guard on the side of the road with a hairdryer type thing unless they stop and warn you afaik, so it was offically recorded and there will be photos of the driver and car.

.

I always believed this to be the case also.

Marcusm

Pov06 wrote: »

If your friend crashes after not disclosing points they will pay out to the third party but they will chase your friend down to recoup the costs.

More importantly, they would likely be obliged to inform the Gardai, failure to disclose is a €5k fine and 6 months in chokey.

PeteK*

Stheno wrote: »

I freely admit I exceed the speed limit on motorways, but in the likes of a 50 or 60 zone, I slow right down, they are lethal for speed traps.

I hope fear of being caught speeding isn't your only reason for slowing down in those zones.

billy few mates

What takeaway restaurant does your friend drive for...?
Any time I have a takeaway delivered it usually takes ages and is freezing when it gets here, I like the sound of a takeaway that goes the extra mile (per hour) to ensure the meals are delivered while they're still warm....

kirving

As was said earlier, the idea of points is to give people them in a gradual manner to hopefully reduce their tendency to speed. 12 points in an hour doesn't actually achieve this. I genuinely hate when people say the following, but in this case it's true - you're taking someone out of work who now may just end up claiming the dole.

Even if the van flashed him once, that might have been warning enough. And you know, isn't that the whole purpose of speed cameras, ie: not to generate revenue, but to make the public more aware, and afraid of being caught so that they lower their speed everywhere. Invisibly catching people means that they continue to speed until the letter arrives.

Look, we all know the types of places speed vans like to hang around. 50kph sections of dual carriageways(ie: Spawell roundabout), meters inside the speed limit dropping as you come into Dublin from the N4 (with a leased boggo spec 152 520d rocketship inches from your rear bumper :pac:).

Maybe the guy was caught 4 times doing 55 in a 50, or maybe 90 through village streets, but my guess is the former considering where the vans usually hand around.

Kenny Logins

jelutong wrote: »

As a matter of interest,was the camera van parked in the same place for each set of penalty points?

..or following him about?

Stheno

PeteK* wrote: »

I hope fear of being caught speeding isn't your only reason for slowing down in those zones.

No, I don't like all of the potential hazards in those zones too much likelihood of an accident