Irish Water - Tax or Charge for service?

Owryan

My opinion? It's a service charge for a service provided to most homes. Happy to pay so long as the money goes to IW. However if post next election IW is wond up and the charge becomes just another tax then that's a different story.

As far as I'm concerned the provision of clean drinking water and a waste service is necessary evil to be paid for.

For those who say water is a human right then let them harvest rain water or haul buckets from a river if they don't want to pay. Nothing to stop them.

Some argue that access to the internet is a human right does that mean it should be free ?

For Reals

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Again, this argument completely ignores the facts and figures when you look at general taxation. Regardless of water supply, in order to reduce general taxation we would need to make cuts somewhere. If you want general taxation to pay for water without charges, we need to make cuts or increase taxes.

Can you explain how it would be possible to fund water given our current taxation figures as you see it, or is this a cafe sound-byte post?

I've covered this at length as well you know.
I'm stating facts, not making an argument that needs defending. You go on to ask me for an alternative, (accepting that costs will eternally go up, which is a flaw in the current bias and broken system we are enslaved to) which I've given a number of times, raise taxes. A cheaper alternative to IW.
If we cannot fund water, if our government cannot supply a basic requirement for life that literally falls from the sky, we should be looking at how the state manages our finances not thinking up new ways to tackle ever increasing costs.
If metering is deemed the only way to go, let the local authorities oversee it.
I'm not interested in rehashing the LA debate as they can't be compared to IW as the LA's never were given the resources or remit to overhaul the system.

Back on topic, The water costs are both tax(es) and a charge. That's purely factual.

Godge

For Reals wrote: »

I've covered this at length as well you know.
I'm stating facts, not making an argument that needs defending. You go on to ask me for an alternative, (accepting that costs will eternally go up, which is a flaw in the current bias and broken system we are enslaved to) which I've given a number of times, raise taxes. A cheaper alternative to IW.
If we cannot fund water, if our government cannot supply a basic requirement for life that literally falls from the sky, we should be looking at how the state manages our finances not thinking up new ways to tackle ever increasing costs.
If metering is deemed the only way to go, let the local authorities oversee it.
I'm not interested in rehashing the LA debate as they can't be compared to IW as the LA's never were given the resources or remit to overhaul the system.

Back on topic, The water costs are both tax(es) and a charge. That's purely factual.

How is raising taxes a cheaper alternative to IW?

Explain with links to published figures, please.

View

For Reals wrote: »

If we cannot fund water, if our government cannot supply a basic requirement for life that literally falls from the sky, we should be looking at how the state manages our finances not thinking up new ways to tackle ever increasing costs.

In the decades that we had water supplied out of general taxation, there is no evidence of the electorate ever having the slightest interest in the amount of monies being spent on our water supply system. Certainly it has never featured as an electoral issue and the electorate have never voted based on how good or bad the water supplied was. Hence your argument just doesn't stand up to reality.

View

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Well, the government have already stolen a load of motor tax money to fund the Irish Water bill

It isn't stealing. It is a democratic decision of the Oireachtas. They can vote to take the monies from any tax and spend it on any service they want.

Owryan

Being honest, how many people really cared about the water infrastructure and its neglect until it was decided they had to pay for it?

I don't remember too many rally's demanding that funds be diverted to mend broken pipes.

From memory people marched to get more money for schools, hospitals, the old and numerous other issues. Yet at the same time people protest at the idea we need to raise taxes or introduce charges to pay for them

Mr.Micro

For Reals wrote: »

If we cannot fund water, if our government cannot supply a basic requirement for life that literally falls from the sky, we should be looking at how the state manages our finances not thinking up new ways to tackle ever increasing costs.
If metering is deemed the only way to go, let the local authorities oversee it.
I'm not interested in rehashing the LA debate as they can't be compared to IW as the LA's never were given the resources or remit to overhaul the system.

Back on topic, The water costs are both tax(es) and a charge. That's purely factual.

Why should the LA s oversee water provision etc? In the UK water is provided by various water companies. The LA s should have been overhauled years ago and IMO many are not fit for purpose, let alone to give them the water gig, again. The standard of water provision and quality up and down Ireland is a very mixed bag. The infrastructure is appalling. Who was looking after the water all along ...the LA s.

Not a day goes by but someone is whinging about the water, and the charges on the radio or online. Many Irish people just do not want to pay for anything, it is as simple as that. Yet expect. The argument is, but we have been paying all along in taxation.... And now we need to pay a bit more. We pay road tax, despite paying in taxes as well.

NorthStars

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Why should the LA s oversee water provision etc? In the UK water is provided by various water companies. The LA s should have been overhauled years ago and IMO many are not fit for purpose, let alone to give them the water gig, again.

The staff 'on the ground', now under the direction of the new quango, are the same staff who were working as LA employees in the water services divisions.

A fact borne out by the Eurostat report.

Indeed the head chap in IW is a serial county manager from the LA system.
His record, if anyone wants to look over it, shows what he is.

IW are now on the government balance sheet and will be for the foreseeable future.

You will be paying from your general taxation, your LPT through the LGF, your motor tax through the LGF, from the NPRF, from 'once off' subventions from central coffers and, if you choose to, through a direct charge.

For Reals

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

hold your horses.

That would require sustainable adequate taxation.

No way, we wont pay!

No we'd pay the tax...but what of the charge?

For Reals

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Why should the LA s oversee water provision etc? In the UK water is provided by various water companies. The LA s should have been overhauled years ago and IMO many are not fit for purpose, let alone to give them the water gig, again. The standard of water provision and quality up and down Ireland is a very mixed bag. The infrastructure is appalling. Who was looking after the water all along ...the LA s.

The LA's as you know, never were given the budget of IW and told to overhaul the system. They were the caretakers.
And why put the Department of the Environment, overseeing Local Authorities, with a water maintenance and supply department in every district in charge of water when we can create a brand new black hole of colossal proportions such as IW? Yeah, you're right :rolleyes:

Redbishop

For Reals wrote: »

I simply can't pull them out of my arse Godge, I'm not Fine Gael. And published by who? Are you asking me to submit a thesis based on research from an alternate reality so I can compare?

Going by what we know;

Save the tax payer with no Irish Water set up. No consultant fees. No board. Basically every penny spent on IW.
Put money directly into the water supply repair in a first time ever budget specifically to do so, with local authorities. IW is a gimmick.



You're all turned around. It's certainly a most pressing issue for Fine Gael. And no, you are correct, most of us never paid any heed to monies put toward water maintenance and supply. Your point is lost on me.
Now we are being charged and having millions wasted via IW, it is an issue. And if Fine Gael can't supply water they are simply doing a piss poor job of it aren't they? I mean we never had to even think of the amount of monies afforded to water before now, did we?

IW is a failed money laundering venture.

Well certainly the LAs are a failed water fixing venture.
The system has constantly been getting worse under their stewardship.
IW has only been in existence for a short while and the water quality has much improved for thousands of consumers since.
I have asked this question many times on another thread, if there were no charges being introduced, I wonder how many would turn out to the marches?
IW Imo is not the reason for the sudden discontent, it is simply the charge.

NorthStars

Redbishop wrote: »

Well certainly the LAs are a failed water fixing venture.
The system has constantly been getting worse under their stewardship.
IW has only been in existence for a short while and the water quality has much improved for thousands of consumers since.
I have asked this question many times on another thread, if there were no charges being introduced, I wonder how many would turn out to the marches?
IW Imo is not the reason for the sudden discontent, it is simply the charge.

The works you have seen completed by the IW quango, using LA staff and subcontractors, are works that were planned and in many cases commenced by the LA's.
The reason the system was getting worse was the lack of funding provided since 2011 by FG & Labour.
It's the old story, run the system down and then privatise it.....

Synode

NorthStars wrote: »

The works you have seen completed by the IW quango, using LA staff and subcontractors, are works that were planned and in many cases commenced by the LA's.
The reason the system was getting worse was the lack of funding provided since 2011 by FG & Labour.
It's the old story, run the system down and then privatise it.....

So a lack of funding was the problem. Would you say raising additional funding is the solution? Would you agree that water charges are the way to raise this additional funding?

Also, every single Government budget was cut when FG came to power. This wasn't a tactic to bring in water charges or privatise it eventually (wherever you're getting that from). It was a necessity in order to reduce our current spending.

K-9

Mod

We're starting to go down the same route as other IW threads on the site. That isn't what this thread is for. Stick to the topic in the opening post.

listermint

nice_guy80 wrote: »

Well, the government have already stolen a load of motor tax money to fund the Irish Water bill

so cuts have been made to roads maintenance budget of every county council
and I have noticed a deterioration in the quality of roads, especially the regional roads

This is very evident and visible in the likes of Meath.

Seth Brundle

NorthStars wrote: »

The works you have seen completed by the IW quango, using LA staff and subcontractors

For the record, the LA staff are former LA staff. They are now IW staff.
This particular wage bill has been removed from the national exchequer to a utility company.

Quin_Dub

Quin_Dub wrote: »

Arguably, Social Welfare could move to that model as well with compulsory "unemployment insurance" instead of flat rate payments funded from central taxation.

Like PRSI??

Synode

NorthStars wrote: »

Which is being almost completely funded by the exchequer and will remain on the government balance sheet for the foreseeable future.

Every Euro raised via water charges is a Euro that the Government no longer has to contribute

NorthStars

Synode wrote: »

Also, every single Government budget was cut when FG came to power. This wasn't a tactic to bring in water charges or privatise it eventually (wherever you're getting that from). It was a necessity in order to reduce our current spending.

So, this government deliberately slashed the funding of water supply, endangering the life of the citizens of this country, in order to appease others???
That's some claim.

NorthStars

Synode wrote: »

Every Euro raised via water charges is a Euro that the Government no longer has to contribute

I'm not going to start an argument with you.
You are by far the most prolific poster on the IW subject across all threads.
The fact is, that even if the government get 100% payment it will equate to around €270 million, take off the €140 million, plus admin, of the 'grant' and with full compliance they'll get around €120 million.

IW is not, and never was, fit for purpose. I know it, a lot of others know it and importantly, Eurostat know it.

Synode

NorthStars wrote: »

So, this government deliberately slashed the funding of water supply, endangering the life of the citizens of this country, in order to appease others???
That's some claim.

Appease others :pac::pac: When you're spending substantially more than you're taking in and you need to borrow to make up the shortfall then yes, you need to start appeasing those you're borrowing from.

Endangering the lives of citizens? You'll have to show me where you're pulling this one from. Everyone still had water

NorthStars

Synode wrote: »

Appease others :pac::pac: When you're spending substantially more than you're taking in and you need to borrow to make up the shortfall then yes, you need to start appeasing those you're borrowing from.

Endangering the lives of citizens? You'll have to show me where you're pulling this one from. Everyone still had water

No thanks.
This isn't the cafe as the mods have explained.

NorthStars

Synode wrote: »

You antis keep telling us it's not fit for purpose (Eurostat said nothing about this so stop your hyperbole). Any chance you have an alternative or are you another who wants to revert to General Taxation?

As above.

Synode

NorthStars wrote: »

No thanks.
This isn't the cafe as the mods have explained.

NorthStars wrote: »

As above.

So you wouldn't get away with nonsense. Right

NorthStars

Synode wrote: »

So you wouldn't get away with nonsense. Right

Reported.

Synode

NorthStars wrote: »

Reported.

For what? Honesty?

ancapailldorcha

NorthStars and Synode, quit bickering.

Final warning. Any more below standard posts will face mod action.

Godge

For Reals wrote: »

I simply can't pull them out of my arse Godge, I'm not Fine Gael. And published by who? Are you asking me to submit a thesis based on research from an alternate reality so I can compare?

Going by what we know;

Save the tax payer with no Irish Water set up. No consultant fees. No board. Basically every penny spent on IW.
Put money directly into the water supply repair in a first time ever budget specifically to do so, with local authorities. IW is a gimmick.



You're all turned around. It's certainly a most pressing issue for Fine Gael. And no, you are correct, most of us never paid any heed to monies put toward water maintenance and supply. Your point is lost on me.
Now we are being charged and having millions wasted via IW, it is an issue. And if Fine Gael can't supply water they are simply doing a piss poor job of it aren't they? I mean we never had to even think of the amount of monies afforded to water before now, did we?

IW is a failed money laundering venture.

That does not make any sense.

The basically every penny spent on Irish Water is money that used to be put into local authorities and they couldn't do the job. If they get water services back, they will need that money back so zero gain for the taxpayer.

You then go on to suggest putting "money directly into the water supply repair in a first time ever budget specifically to do so, with local authorities" which requires extra money over and above that currently given to Irish Water.

This is what you said before: "I've given a number of times, raise taxes. A cheaper alternative to IW." Instead, all you have shown is that your solution will be dearer than Irish Water.

Unless you can come up with figures that back up what you are saying, there is deeply flawed logic at the heart of your proposal.

NorthStars

Water, in my opinion, is a basic service any country should provide for all of it's citizens.
It should be funded through general taxation for the benefit of all.
Commodifying this one basic of life should be frowned upon and resisted with vigour.

If a 26 county 'Water Services Board' is required to coordinate the existing LA water section workers, so be it.
It wouldn't take a genius to set this up.

Up until FG and Labour came to power, we were spending up to €1.2 billion a year on water provision and infrastructure.
This has been reduced by this government to somewhere around €400 million pa.

There's a reason for this and as far back as 2009 FG had their IW plans in place. Stop investment, run the system down in order to give them the reason to sell off this basic right.

Some people here are claiming that banks and bondholders should be paid off ahead of providing clean water and a decent infrastructure for the people of this country.

I find this attitude quite disgusting, and to be fair, it's a minority view.

So, in short, a coordinated plan for water provision is acceptable, to be funded from general taxation for the benefit of all.

Godge

NorthStars wrote: »

The works you have seen completed by the IW quango, using LA staff and subcontractors, are works that were planned and in many cases commenced by the LA's.
The reason the system was getting worse was the lack of funding provided since 2011 by FG & Labour.
It's the old story, run the system down and then privatise it.....

That is not true. There is zero evidence to support the contention that the aim ever was "run the system down and then privatise it".

As for the works, Irish Water have done more to address the problems of boil water notices in Roscommon in the last two years than Roscommon County Council did in the previous 20 years. How? By taking an overview and deciding that a priority was to address boil water notices wherever they were, Irish Water ensured priority investment to address the issue. That is something that only a single national utility could do.