Munster hurling champion record

zombieHanalei · 17-08-2015 12:18am #1

Number in bracket after 'next opponent' is the number of weeks since that team's last game.

Munster champions have gone on to win the All-Ireland final just 4 times since the introduction of the backdoor.

The Munster champion has been defeated on 7 occasions by a team who has not gone on to win the All-Ireland final.

Only 6 times in the last 19 years has the Munster champion gone and won their next game.

On four occasions, the Munster champion has drawn their next game, three of which have gone on to win the replay, the exception being the controversial Clare v Offaly drama of 1998.

The Munster champion has lost their next game 9 times out of 19.

17-08-2015 12:28am

Its definitely a talking point at this stage. Even go back to 2011 and Tipp took a long time to get going against Dublin in a game you'd have expected them to win more comfortably. Kilkenny are able to handle the lay off most years without much difficulty. As they win Leinster most years its easy enough plan out the year ahead.

In Munster its such a war usually just to win that championship that you need to be right no matter who you are playing. Tipp performed better today than any of the teams the last few years today but still looked below the intensity you'd expect which the goals glossed over to some extent.

bruschi · 17-08-2015 7:58am

I dont get the logic of excuses for the Munster champions losing though. On one hand you have that it is so hard to win the Munster championship (2 games) and you have to be up for every game. Yet they then get a long break to the semi final to recover. And then on the other hand the argument is that there is too long of a gap to the next game, yet it never affects Kilkenny.

Personally, I think there is no correlation or no excuses over it, just something that is an unusual enough sequence of events, added to the fact that in a number of years, I dont think the best team in Munster won the Munster championship.

Colm R · 17-08-2015 9:13am

bruschi wrote: »

I dont get the logic of excuses for the Munster champions losing though. On one hand you have that it is so hard to win the Munster championship (2 games) and you have to be up for every game. Yet they then get a long break to the semi final to recover. And then on the other hand the argument is that there is too long of a gap to the next game, yet it never affects Kilkenny.

Personally, I think there is no correlation or no excuses over it, just something that is an unusual enough sequence of events, added to the fact that in a number of years, I dont think the best team in Munster won the Munster championship.

I agree somewhat that it is just an unusual enough sequence of events, but it will be interesting to watch in the coming years.

I don't think it effects Kilkenny, because with a few exceptions, they can plan their year out to peak August/September. But when it goes wrong for Kilkenny, they can get caught out.

For example, in 2012 they lost the Leinster final. That year they then had one extra game, which they handled and went on to win. However, because of not winning the provincial that year, they had a very different championship the following year in 2013 which as it turned out, they did not manage very well at all.
They ultimately did figure it out by 2014 and normal service had resumed.

I wonder though is this topic going to be another stick for what ultimately will be the restructure of the championships. Its long been said that the two biggest obstacles to restructure is Ulster Football and Munster Hurling.

Mehapoy · 17-08-2015 9:22am

Colm R wrote: »

I agree somewhat that it is just an unusual enough sequence of events, but it will be interesting to watch in the coming years.

I don't think it effects Kilkenny, because with a few exceptions, they can plan their year out to peak August/September. But when it goes wrong for Kilkenny, they can get caught out.

For example, in 2012 they lost the Leinster final. That year they then had one extra game, which they handled and went on to win. However, because of not winning the provincial that year, they had a very different championship the following year in 2013 which as it turned out, they did not manage very well at all.
They ultimately did figure it out by 2014 and normal service had resumed.

I wonder though is this topic going to be another stick for what ultimately will be the restructure of the championships. Its long been said that the two biggest obstacles to restructure is Ulster Football and Munster Hurling.

It's a hard one, I think winning the Minster championship seems to suit teams that haven't won much in very long, like Limerick 2013 and cork 2014, and would have suited Waterford this year...but then you would have thought winning a Munster was exactly what tipp needed to give them the push to the final, it may just be that Munster teams, while evenly matched, aren't simply as good as Kilkenny or Galway on their year...tipp seem to have a soft core somehow, cork are working off poor raw materials, Waterford are only emerging again, Limerick are a bit off the top level and Clare have their own problems with replicating 2013...I think the best structure was to have 4 quarter finals with provincial champions involved, but trying to avoid repeat pairing where there are so few counties up to the level is another headache.

zombieHanalei · 17-08-2015 10:13am

As someone who admittedly does not want to see the provincial championships be dispensed with, I have to say that this does devalue the Munster championship somewhat, and the Munster championship is commonly held up as a strong argument against sweeping reform of the championship structure.

If the team that wins the competition regularly flops in the All-Ireland series, then does that suggest it's not fit for purpose?

The problem is, the championship is structured to treat the provincial champions as the top two seeded teams, and the provincial runners up as the third and fourth seeded teams. But when the All-Ireland series almost never goes as per this seeding (only once in 8 seasons since the format was introduced) then questions have to be asked of how the whole thing is structured.

dastardly00 · 17-08-2015 10:17am

Leinster champions have gone on to win the All-Ireland final 9 times since the introduction of the backdoor (out of a possible 18 times).

The Leinster champions has been defeated in their next match on 3 occasions by a team who has not gone on to win the All-Ireland final.

In 15 times in the last 19 years the Leinster champions have gone and won their next game.

The Leinster champions have lost their next game only 4 times out of 19.

I don't think you can draw any conclusions from the above statistics due to Kilkenny's dominance of the hurling championship. KK have won the Leinster championship 15 times (out of a possible 19), and they have only lost their next match on one occasion (versus Galway in 2001).

EDIT: If you take Kilkenny out of the equation........
then 3 times out of 4 the Leinster champions have lost their next match.

Charlie69 · 17-08-2015 10:29am

The Munster champions haven't won the All-Ireland since Cork's victory in 2005 which on the one hand is quite a surprising statistic, on the other hand when you consider that probably the greatest team of all time have won seven of the nine finals since 05, that offers a more plausible explanation for it than four or five week layoff's, hoodo's or whatever.

Colm R · 17-08-2015 10:34am

zombieHanalei wrote: »

As someone who admittedly does not want to see the provincial championships be dispensed with, I have to say that this does devalue the Munster championship somewhat, and the Munster championship is commonly held up as a strong argument against sweeping reform of the championship structure.

If the team that wins the competition regularly flops in the All-Ireland series, then does that suggest it's not fit for purpose?

The problem is, the championship is structured to treat the provincial champions as the top two seeded teams, and the provincial runners up as the third and fourth seeded teams. But when the All-Ireland series almost never goes as per this seeding (only once in 8 seasons since the format was introduced) then questions have to be asked of how the whole thing is structured.

I guess I am guilty of introducing that issue to this discussion. The statistic is ultimately caused I think by the dominance of Kilkenny and the inability of any Munster county to keep them in check for a prolonged period. It has nothing to do with Munster Championship itself.

But people who want to see the end of the provincial championships, myself included, righly or wrongly, will use this fact to back up their argument.

zombieHanalei · 17-08-2015 10:35am

dastardly00 wrote: »

Out of curiosity, I replicated zombieHanalei's table for the Leinster champions.

Year|Champions|Wait Time|Next opponent|Result
1997|Wexford|5 weeks|Tipperary (3)|Lost
1998|Kilkenny|6 weeks|Waterford (3)|Won
1999|Kilkenny|5 weeks|Clare (2)|Won
2000|Kilkenny|5 weeks|Galway (3)|Won
2001|Kilkenny|6 weeks|Galway (3)|Lost
2002|Kilkenny|6 weeks|Tipperary (3)|Won
2003|Kilkenny|6 weeks|Tipperary (3)|Won
2004|Wexford|6 weeks|Cork (3)|Lost
2005|Kilkenny|4 weeks|Limerick (3)|Won
2006|Kilkenny|3 weeks|Galway (2)|Won
2007|Kilkenny|4 weeks|Galway (2)|Won
2008|Kilkenny|5 weeks|Cork (2)|Won
2009|Kilkenny|5 weeks|Waterford (2)|Won
2010|Kilkenny|5 weeks|Cork (2)|Won
2011|Kilkenny|5 weeks|Waterford (2)|Won
2012|Galway|5 weeks|Cork (2)|Won
2013|Dublin|5 weeks|Cork (2)|Lost
2014|Kilkenny|5 weeks|Limerick (2)|Won
2015|Kilkenny|5 weeks|Waterford (2)|Won
Leinster champions have gone on to win the All-Ireland final 9 times since the introduction of the backdoor (out of a possible 18 times).

The Leinster champions has been defeated in their next match on 3 occasions by a team who has not gone on to win the All-Ireland final.

In 15 times in the last 19 years the Leinster champions have gone and won their next game.

The Leinster champions have lost their next game only 4 times out of 19.

I don't think you can draw any conclusions from the above statistics due to Kilkenny's dominance of the hurling championship. KK have won the Leinster championship 15 times (out of a possible 19), and they have only lost their next match on one occasion (versus Galway in 2001).

The problem is, in Kilkenny we're talking about the greatest team in the history of the GAA, I mean Cody is starting to make Mick O'Dwyer's reign with Kerry look decidedly average at this stage! I don't think it's unfair to claim Kilkenny as an exception to so many rules (not just in hurling, but in sport full stop!)

blue note · 17-08-2015 10:55am

I don’t think the number of games or the layoff is the problem – I think teams are generally peaking to win Munster and not able to maintain that until the next game. In this years Munster final I think both Tipp and Waterford were at their peak for this season – and both teams performances dipped by the time the semi finals came around.

Kilkenny do distort the figures from their dominance over the last decade, but generally the Munster winners aren’t facing Kilkenny in the semi finals, but are still losing. Often to teams who were knocked out of Munster.

I think Kilkenny have always aimed to peak for August / September each year. They were lucky that they were able to do this and still win Leinster easily each year up until recently, but even now I still think that they’re aiming to peak for the AI rather than provincial final each year.

I’d love to see the end of the provincial championships. It would be fairer and we’d get to play different teams more often. It’s crazy that we have played Dublin once in the last 70 years or something. And we’ve hardly ever played Wexford or Offaly either.

Mehapoy · 17-08-2015 11:20am

Colm R wrote: »

I guess I am guilty of introducing that issue to this discussion. The statistic is ultimately caused I think by the dominance of Kilkenny and the inability of any Munster county to keep them in check for a prolonged period. It has nothing to do with Munster Championship itself.

But people who want to see the end of the provincial championships, myself included, righly or wrongly, will use this fact to back up their argument.

The fact that Kilkenny were nigh on unbeatable in the all Ireland series in the last 10 years skews the stats alright, still there is trend of the Munster champions failing to get to the final either...

blue note · 17-08-2015 11:33am

Mehapoy wrote: »

The fact that Kilkenny were nigh on unbeatable in the all Ireland series in the last 10 years skews the stats alright, still there is trend of the Munster champions failing to get to the final either...

And more munster teams getting to the final through the back door than the front.

Poor_old_gill · 17-08-2015 12:35pm

Forget your counter arguments- we need a reason as to why these teams dont get to the AI final and it certainly cant be of their own doing.

It's the fault of someone else at all times and not just the simple fact that without Seamie Callinan that Tipp would have been bet out the gate yesterday.

Fireball07 · 17-08-2015 12:50pm

Poor_old_gill wrote: »

Forget your counter arguments- we need a reason as to why these teams dont get to the AI final and it certainly cant be of their own doing.

It's the fault of someone else at all times and not just the simple fact that without Seamie Callinan that Tipp would have been bet out the gate yesterday.

I think the point is that these Munster champions are losing to other Munster teams too.

Last year, Cork didn't show up and were destroyed by Tipp, who had been beaten by Limerick. Tipp were a lot better at that time of year but Cork were just woeful.

The year before Limerick lost to Clare, again they didn't show up on the day. Clare improved through the back door but neither of those games were even close.

Similar enough with Waterford and Tipp in 2010.

Teams must be wondering whether it is even worth their while winning the Munster final. At the same time, you can't play to lose- that would be a terrible attitude and you can't count on peaking through the backdoor. I think the fact that Kilkenny have done so well, even taking into account that they have generally been a level above, shows that the Munster teams are doing something wrong. Maybe the Leinster Championship is a little easier for Kilkenny than the Munster Championship is for any of those teams, and they don't have to peak until later but I do think that plenty of Munster champions have got their preparation seriously wrong.

Poor_old_gill · 17-08-2015 12:59pm

Fireball07 wrote: »

I think the point is that these Munster champions are losing to other Munster teams too.

Last year, Cork didn't show up and were destroyed by Tipp, who had been beaten by Limerick. Tipp were a lot better at that time of year but Cork were just woeful.

The year before Limerick lost to Clare, again they didn't show up on the day. Clare improved through the back door but neither of those games were even close.

Similar enough with Waterford and Tipp in 2010.

Teams must be wondering whether it is even worth their while winning the Munster final. At the same time, you can't play to lose- that would be a terrible attitude and you can't count on peaking through the backdoor. I think the fact that Kilkenny have done so well, even taking into account that they have generally been a level above, shows that the Munster teams are doing something wrong. Maybe the Leinster Championship is a little easier for Kilkenny than the Munster Championship is for any of those teams, and they don't have to peak until later but I do think that plenty of Munster champions have got their preparation seriously wrong.

But these arguments/search for reason regularly arise and to be honest there very rarely is an answer to the situation.

I'll give you a recent example- Kerry's regular All Ireland final wins were criticised as being too easy and supposedly Kerry (and Cork) had a huge advantage as they would come out of Munster and be more or less guaranteed a quarter final spot without playing anyone.
But when a team aren't winning, like Dublin last year, the easy passage is criticised and the team are supposedly undercooked.

Could it not be as much down to complacency/letting the hype and celebrations go to their heads on the Munster champions part?

zombieHanalei · 19-08-2015 8:36am

Ok, so I can't apologise enough for bringing this back to discussing formats, it's a discussion which has been done to death!

However, the poor performance of the Munster champion (particularly in the last 8 years) is becoming difficult to ignore. Either;

The best team wins the championship and for some reason loses form or for whatever reason is no longer the best team 5 weeks later come semi final time.
The best team does not win the Munster championship and is thus exposed in the semi final by better teams who take the backdoor route. In which case, serious question marks would have to be raised over a championship that consistently is not won by the best team.

I believe it's more a case of the former than the latter, my reservations with the structure are more to do with scheduling than format, I think a 2 to 3 week wait between games should be the aim. Worth noting Richie Hogan's recent comments where he said he "hates" the present format and the long gap between games.

See below my alternative structure, based on the 12 teams who took part in this seasons McCarthy Cup. 12 teams, 2 round robins, one for each province. All teams get 6 games. Galway's province dependent on whether Kerry qualify from the qualifier group. If Kerry qualify then they play in Munster and Galway move to Leinster. All teams get 6 games. Play rounds 1 & 2 on consecutive weekends, same with rounds 3 & 4 (in order to ensure time is left over for club championships in the schedule).
Qualifier group play offs to determine which two teams start next year in the qualifier group.

Now fire away and tell me why the following is stupid!

CONSI · 19-08-2015 8:45am

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Ok, so I can't apologise enough for bringing this back to discussing formats, it's a discussion which has been done to death!

However, the poor performance of the Munster champion (particularly in the last 8 years) is becoming difficult to ignore. Either;
The best team wins the championship and for some reason loses form or for whatever reason is no longer the best team 5 weeks later come semi final time.

The best team does not win the Munster championship and is thus exposed in the semi final by better teams who take the backdoor route. In which case, serious question marks would have to be raised over a championship that consistently is not won by the best team.

I believe it's more a case of the former than the latter, my reservations with the structure are more to do with scheduling than format, I think a 2 to 3 week wait between games should be the aim. Worth noting Richie Hogan's recent comments where he said he "hates" the present format and the long gap between games.

See below my alternative structure, based on the 12 teams who took part in this seasons McCarthy Cup. 12 teams, 2 round robins, one for each province. All teams get 6 games. Galway's province dependent on whether Kerry qualify from the qualifier group. If Kerry qualify then they play in Munster and Galway move to Leinster. All teams get 6 games. Play rounds 1 & 2 on consecutive weekends, same with rounds 3 & 4 (in order to ensure time is left over for club championships in the schedule).
Qualifier group play offs to determine which two teams start next year in the qualifier group.

Now fire away and tell me why the following is stupid!

Leaves no time for the inevitable replays that the GAA like so much

adrian522 · 19-08-2015 9:01am

It seems fairly lopsided though. Going on the published rankings 4 of the top 5 are on the Munster side. Kilkenny still wouldn't get much of a challenge, the Dublin game is a dead rubber because both teams will the in the Leinster final and with so many games you'd have to think attendances will suffer.

Part of the problem for the Munster winners I think is that the depth in Munster is not as strong as some seem to think it is.

Limerick, Clare and Cork are all fairly poor at the moment. Waterford are coming along but the challenge in playing them is more about figuring out how to beat their system rather than upping the intensity to the required level that would be needed in an All Ireland semi final.

In short the Munster championship was a poor way of preparing Tipperary for the All Ireland series.

Having said all that, not being challenged in Leinster over the years was never really a problem for Kilkenny, at least not since 2001/2005.

zombieHanalei · 19-08-2015 9:36am

All valid criticisms, in fact, the more I think about it, the more I feel severance of the provincial championships is the only truly fair way to go. Will never happen though. Can't see Munster (or even Leinster for that matter) ever going for it.

Oddly enough, even though I'm starting to see the provincial system as flawed and no longer fit for purpose, I would be absolutely gutted to see them go.

blue note · 19-08-2015 9:53am

Ah here, adding Galway to Munster? If you're saying that Limerick, Clare, Cork are fairly poor at the moment, where does that leave Leinster barring Kilkenny? Teams have good years and bad years and this year was poor for those 3, but in the last couple of years Cork won Munster and got to a final, Limerick won Munster and twice beat Tipp (who I'd still say are the second best team in the country. And who your rankings say are the second best in the country by a decent margin). And of course Clare won an All Ireland.

Dublin are a good side, although I think they have some rebuilding to do. But they'd be comparable to those three Munster sides mentioned. But Wexford haven't made it to the last 4 since 2007, haven't won a provincial since 2004. They look like they're going in the right direction, but they're some way off the top 8 at the moment. Offaly, Laois, Westmeath are a long way off Wexford let alone the other 8 teams.

I think that the provincial championships are the fairest that they've been in a long time, but they're still not fair and I'd love to see a change. A system removing the provincial structure would undoubtedly be the fairest, but the provincial councils wouldn't hear of it. To the point that I'm not even sure of the point of talking about it.

Mountainlad · 19-08-2015 10:04am

Games are king but there's a few things you'd have to consider.

Firstly, if we're talking about all Ireland's than you'd have to just admit that Kilkenny are Kilkenny and just an amazing team. That is the main reason that record is so bad, they are just better and when you look at the Leinster championship that is really reflected.

Secondly, you can beat the best team once but very hard to do it twice. Even take Kilkenny as the example again, they have won 2 of the last 3 all Ireland despite only winning Leinster once, and have even failed to win a few more games but they still got there in the end because they were the best team.

This has happened a few times in the Munster Championship. In 2008 Tipp had come from exodus to go unbeaten from January to August. They were good but still a good ways off where they were 12 months later. Waterford had been league and Munster champs the previous year, and a lot of people forgot that Ken, Kelly and Eoin Murphy missed the Clare game. The win shouldn't have been the surprise it was.

In 2010, Tipp completely underperformed down in Pairc Ui Caoimh. I have no doubt they were comfortably better than us despite Our Munster victory.

In 2012, Tipp tactically got a lot wrong but Kilkenny were the best team in Ireland so by extension better than Tipp.

In 2013, Limerick deserved to win each game they won in Munster but they got the luck you need to win it with the home games and the sending off in the final. They had never experienced a big win. That year was an anomaly and it's hard to say who the best team in Munster was given it was an all Munster all Ireland final.

In 2014, who were the bookies favorites? Tipp, and they got caught cold by Limerick. But who ended the year as the best team in Munster? Tipp undoubtedly.

That's 5 of the 10 championships since 2005 accounted for, and then when you look at 2006, 2009 and 2011 they all won.

If you look at this year, while I do think there can be some rustiness for the layoff Tipp got the ideal start. They got 3 goals in total, and had a penalty opportunity a long with other goal chances. They very nearly won a game they were well out played in. Is that lack of sharpness? Is making the most of the opportunities you get severely underperforming?

And another problem Inhave with it, Callanan got 0-0 from play against Waterford. I'd say he touched the ball once. So what good as preparation would that game have been for him in terms of what to do when he got on the ball? And yet the 5 week break didn't bother him, 3-04 next day out. So why do all the others get exonerated?

In summary it's not ideal, but there's plenty of other plausible reasons why the Munster champions are having a torrid time. I notice there's not the same inquiry into how the best team has failed to win Munster in a number of those years. The truth is that that's the supposed beauty of knockout hurling.

thinkstoomuch1 · 19-08-2015 10:46am

Mountainlad wrote: »

Games are king but there's a few things you'd have to consider.

Firstly, if we're talking about all Ireland's than you'd have to just admit that Kilkenny are Kilkenny and just an amazing team. That is the main reason that record is so bad, they are just better and when you look at the Leinster championship that is really reflected.

Secondly, you can beat the best team once but very hard to do it twice. Even take Kilkenny as the example again, they have won 2 of the last 3 all Ireland despite only winning Leinster once, and have even failed to win a few more games but they still got there in the end because they were the best team.

This has happened a few times in the Munster Championship. In 2008 Tipp had come from exodus to go unbeaten from January to August. They were good but still a good ways off where they were 12 months later. Waterford had been league and Munster champs the previous year, and a lot of people forgot that Ken, Kelly and Eoin Murphy missed the Clare game. The win shouldn't have been the surprise it was.

In 2010, Tipp completely underperformed down in Pairc Ui Caoimh. I have no doubt they were comfortably better than us despite Our Munster victory.

In 2012, Tipp tactically got a lot wrong but Kilkenny were the best team in Ireland so by extension better than Tipp.

In 2013, Limerick deserved to win each game they won in Munster but they got the luck you need to win it with the home games and the sending off in the final. They had never experienced a big win. That year was an anomaly and it's hard to say who the best team in Munster was given it was an all Munster all Ireland final.

In 2014, who were the bookies favorites? Tipp, and they got caught cold by Limerick. But who ended the year as the best team in Munster? Tipp undoubtedly.

That's 5 of the 10 championships since 2005 accounted for, and then when you look at 2006, 2009 and 2011 they all won.

If you look at this year, while I do think there can be some rustiness for the layoff Tipp got the ideal start. They got 3 goals in total, and had a penalty opportunity a long with other goal chances. They very nearly won a game they were well out played in. Is that lack of sharpness? Is making the most of the opportunities you get severely underperforming?

And another problem Inhave with it, Callanan got 0-0 from play against Waterford. I'd say he touched the ball once. So what good as preparation would that game have been for him in terms of what to do when he got on the ball? And yet the 5 week break didn't bother him, 3-04 next day out. So why do all the others get exonerated?

In summary it's not ideal, but there's plenty of other plausible reasons why the Munster champions are having a torrid time. I notice there's not the same inquiry into how the best team has failed to win Munster in a number of those years. The truth is that that's the supposed beauty of knockout hurling.

In all fairness it's pretty clear why Callan scored more v Galway than waterford surely when waterford played an eight man defence and a blanket style

Galway played orthodox
It had zero to do with preparation time wise but purely on how both teams set up significantly allowed Callan more room

keeponhurling · 19-08-2015 10:51am

adrian522 wrote: »

Part of the problem for the Munster winners I think is that the depth in Munster is not as strong as some seem to think it is.

Limerick, Clare and Cork are all fairly poor at the moment. Waterford are coming along but the challenge in playing them is more about figuring out how to beat their system rather than upping the intensity to the required level that would be needed in an All Ireland semi final.

In short the Munster championship was a poor way of preparing Tipperary for the All Ireland series.

Having said all that, not being challenged in Leinster over the years was never really a problem for Kilkenny, at least not since 2001/2005.

Teams like 2013 All-Ireland winners Clare are of course poor, and only making up the numbers.

We need teams like Galway or Dublin who won All-Ireland's in the 1980's or 1950's to bring us up to Leinster's level

adrian522 · 19-08-2015 10:55am

keeponhurling wrote: »

Teams like 2013 All-Ireland winners Clare are of course poor, and only making up the numbers.

We need teams like Galway or Dublin who won All-Ireland's in the 1980's or 1950's to bring us up to Leinster's level

Bit confused by your post? Are you saying Clare are a good team based on the last 2 years? Remind me who they have beaten in that time? Remind me who they have lost to.

I didn't say anything about Galway or Dublin or being brought up to Leinsters level.

I said the Munster championship did a pretty poor job or preparing Tipp for the semi final.

I specifically said that Kilkenny faced the same problem in Leinster over the years. I said nowhere that Leinster was at a higher level than Munster.

Next time try reading my post before you reply.

Mountainlad · 19-08-2015 11:07am

thinkstoomuch1 wrote: »

In all fairness it's pretty clear why Callan scored more v Galway than waterford surely when waterford played an eight man defence and a blanket style

Galway played orthodox
It had zero to do with preparation time wise but purely on how both teams set up significantly allowed Callan more room

The point is how can however many Tipp players claim they were rusty, while another can come out and score 3-04 with no signs of being rusty. Last year, he nearly won hurler of they year but still displayed plenty of rust when not putting Richie McCarthy to the sword despite having 2 or 3 goal chances but instead took big swings or too long out of the ball. Wasn't guilty of that on Sunday for sure.

thinkstoomuch1 · 19-08-2015 11:13am

Mountainlad wrote: »

The point is how can however many Tipp players claim they were rusty, while another can come out and score 3-04 with no signs of being rusty. Last year, he nearly won hurler of they year but still displayed plenty of rust when not putting Richie McCarthy to the sword despite having 2 or 3 goal chances but instead took big swings or too long out of the ball. Wasn't guilty of that on Sunday for sure.

Fair enough but Callan was helped hugely by the space he had in front of the full back line

I as you know have always belived all along munster was a mickey mouse competition and it's sad to say and even said didn't want cork to win it this year
Munster is as proven by the statics clear as dawn break day for whatever reasons bottom line is winning Munster no relevance to the all ireland at all
Your better off getting to a munster final and tapering off in training
Winning munster under twenty one more relevance imo than senior munster now

Even Browne said today examiner huge importance for waterford win under twenty one title as I even said before this article last week in the waterford thread
That applies to all munster counties at under twenty one imo

bruschi · 19-08-2015 11:21am

zombieHanalei wrote: »

All valid criticisms, in fact, the more I think about it, the more I feel severance of the provincial championships is the only truly fair way to go. Will never happen though. Can't see Munster (or even Leinster for that matter) ever going for it.

Oddly enough, even though I'm starting to see the provincial system as flawed and no longer fit for purpose, I would be absolutely gutted to see them go.

I was thinking about this during the week, and thought of a similar set up to your own. I havent had time to sit down and plan it out as well as your proposal, but in essence it would be along the lines of the following:

Have the 2 provincial championships start off as they currently are. These first round games form part of the 12 team league structure.

Losers then are out of the provincial championship. They continue with the league format against the other first round losers. The provincial championship continues with as normal, and continues to form part of the league. The Leinster and Munster finals double up as league games, and the winners get through to the semi finals.

Continue on with the league from there. The top 6 qualify, the Munster and Leinster winners into the semis, and the next 4, depending on league placings, then play in 1/4 finals. Is that enough insentive for provincial champions? Maybe so. It means the latter stages of the league they can afford to rest players as they have qualified. Does it mean they give up on the rest of their games? Maybe so.

This would create 14 weekends of games. Whether teams are willing to play week on week is another issue, but its often now being said, that gaelic games have a training culture rather than a games culture. Would it make the league redundant? Absolutely. This new league would give you a league champion, which would be enough for that.

I havent fully thought it out like you did, and I'm sure I'm missing some blatantly obvious flaw, but as long as we are all throwing out suggestions! This means your league and provincial remains, with incentives to both, and also creates more games.

Mountainlad · 19-08-2015 11:24am

I won't and hope nobody else does start talking about the u21 Munster title in this thread.

I know your view, and I know Galway didn't cover themselves in glory there. But he still had to perform and he put in a great performance, so if he can do that where is everyone else's excuse?

I think another point I didn't make was its actually a problem with the semi final. Semi finals are for winning as they say, if you win Munster you're thinking about an all Ireland. You don't really want to play a semi final. In contrast, when you lose you're in the last chance saloon. You have to refocus and deal with the pressure of your championship being in the balance. If you get to a semi final you've nothing to lose and there's a big drive to succeed. A provincial champion has everything to lose though.

I'd rather an all Ireland than a provincial title but I don't think that should be a choice or is a healthy attitude. Fine Tipp lost, but there's no other Munster team in an all Ireland final this year that would suggest they were better off losing.

I think ten years is a very small sample size to be honest and there's plenty of reasons that have merit as to why Munster champions have a poor record.

Mehapoy · 19-08-2015 11:39am

zombieHanalei wrote: »

Ok, so I can't apologise enough for bringing this back to discussing formats, it's a discussion which has been done to death!

However, the poor performance of the Munster champion (particularly in the last 8 years) is becoming difficult to ignore. Either;
The best team wins the championship and for some reason loses form or for whatever reason is no longer the best team 5 weeks later come semi final time.

The best team does not win the Munster championship and is thus exposed in the semi final by better teams who take the backdoor route. In which case, serious question marks would have to be raised over a championship that consistently is not won by the best team.

I believe it's more a case of the former than the latter, my reservations with the structure are more to do with scheduling than format, I think a 2 to 3 week wait between games should be the aim. Worth noting Richie Hogan's recent comments where he said he "hates" the present format and the long gap between games.

See below my alternative structure, based on the 12 teams who took part in this seasons McCarthy Cup. 12 teams, 2 round robins, one for each province. All teams get 6 games. Galway's province dependent on whether Kerry qualify from the qualifier group. If Kerry qualify then they play in Munster and Galway move to Leinster. All teams get 6 games. Play rounds 1 & 2 on consecutive weekends, same with rounds 3 & 4 (in order to ensure time is left over for club championships in the schedule).
Qualifier group play offs to determine which two teams start next year in the qualifier group.

Now fire away and tell me why the following is stupid!

I think something along those lines alright,
I'd have only 5 per group though and have Galway in Leinster, also have a 5 team 'Christy ring' group with the winner getting into the play off rounds...like the 5 nations each match has its own trophy ie. Calcutta cup for scotland and England, devalera cup for Limerick/Clare?
Each section, winner straight into final and 2nd and 3rd play off, that guarantees each game in the round robin is critical so no coasting in the early rounds, also with 3 out of 5 qualifying there should be no dead rubbers,
Play offs would be confined to finalists x4, Christy ring winner and provincial play off losers, don't exactly know how to make that work but extra time in all games and as far as possible be finished on the day, golden goal? Etc.
Just an idea off the top of my head to keep the provincials as they are, allow teams from lower tiers come up and give counties meaningful numbers of games,

adrian522 · 19-08-2015 11:43am

I've always thought incorporating the league into the championship structure would be a good idea. Not sure how it would work, but if finishing league position dictated who you play in the first round of the championship or something it may increase the value of the league.

If you are going to have a round robin I think it makes more sense to have the league/championship related somehow.

You still have the problem of the provincial championships though. If you want to maintain those it is very difficult to have a fair system.

letsseehere14 · 26-08-2015 12:59pm

Iv had a look back from 97 to now. Correct me if i'm wrong but:
16 of the 19 years the Munster and Leinster champs went straight to the SF. 05, 06 and 07 being the exceptions when they went to the QF's.
In those 16 years the Munster champs only reached the final 6 times. The Leinster champs, 12 times.
So thats 37.5% success rate for the Munster champs in their next match and 75% success rate for the Leinster champs. But if you take Kilkenny out of it, the 4 seasons someone else won, 3 out of 4 times they lost their next match, 25% success. Those are pretty stark numbers. The teams that are winning at the start of the championship are left sit on their back sides for 5 weeks and their success rate tumbles. The only thing that changes is they don't play matches in that gap while other teams do!

When you look at the 3 seasons that the provincial champions went to the quarter finals the stats change dramatically. 05, 06, 07 all 3 Munster champions won their quarter finals, and twice won the follow up semifinals. So next match after the Munster final, they won 100% of them, and 66.66% of their semifinals, up from 37.5%! That is huge.
In Leinster those 3 seasons, the Leinster champs won 2 of the 3 quarter finals, and both Semi finals they played in. Thats 66.66% win for the next match, down slightly, but they also won the All Ireland the years they won their QF's.

Its as obvious as the day is long. Matches are key. As the summer builds, teams through the qualifiers build team cohesion, spirit, game plans, get used to eachothers movements. The provincial champs go throught training session after training session, not knowing who they will be playing. No knowing who to plan for. Things get stagnant and when the semi final arrives they just dont hit the ground running or bring the energy required. Kilkenny have gotten through most times, but have been caught. But they have had a superior squad to any other team over that period.

My solution, bring back the setup where the provincial champs head for the quarter finals. Max lay off from provincial final to quarter final of 3 weeks, down from 5.

playtowin · 26-08-2015 2:24pm

What about Club games?

If your system was adopted in a County like Cork, then it would be a nightmare. It is difficult enough trying to get games played as it is in Cork between the InterCounty Hurlers and Footballers without adding these extra games.

letsseehere14 · 26-08-2015 3:17pm

playtowin wrote: »

What about Club games?

If your system was adopted in a County like Cork, then it would be a nightmare. It is difficult enough trying to get games played as it is in Cork between the InterCounty Hurlers and Footballers without adding these extra games.

Its hard to know who you are addressing here but if it is me (since mine is the last post) and my comment about sending provincial champs into quarter finals instead of semi finals, well there would be no extra championship games. There would be the same amount of games but provincial champions would play 1 extra game to reach the final, and not have a 5 week layoff.
There would be 2 extra quarter finals but 2 less qualifier matches as 4 teams would emerge from the qualifiers instead of 2.

Munster hurling champion record

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