Bidding on House - Can I confirm other bidders actually exist

shawty

I'm a first time buyer and I have been out bid on a number of houses.

Is there a way for me to find out if the other bids really exist? If I bid 100 and get a call from the agent saying it's now at 101, how do I really know there is a real bid in? How do I know the agent is not just trying to get the highest amount they can?

Michael D Not Higgins

Short answer, no you can't know for certain.

shawty

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Short answer, no you can't know for certain.

Well that sucks

Carawaystick

you can withdraw from bidding and see if the house sells. Check the price on the property price register and see if its higher than your bid.

shawty

Carawaystick wrote: »

you can withdraw from bidding and see if the house sells. Check the price on the property price register and see if its higher than your bid.

I don't want to withdraw, I want the house!!

I didn't think the property price register was that live a system, is it?

L1011

shawty wrote: »

I didn't think the property price register was that live a system, is it?

It'll show pretty much as soon as the sale closes - which can be months out.

Being too eager to get a house is enough reason for an EA to start playing the fake bids game. You can't let them realise you've "fallen in love" (most commonly used term on here) with a house, for instance.

etoughguy

If an auctioneer tells you there are other bidders then there are other bidders, they never lie

Riskymove

shawty wrote: »

How do I know the agent is not just trying to get the highest amount they can?

you have to assume that the EA is doing exactly that. they are paid by the seller and usually a % of the price.

unfortunately you can't know for sure.

try and find out how long the property is on the market, the sudden arrival of other bidders can be suspicious alright.

shawty

etoughguy wrote: »

If an auctioneer tells you there are other bidders then there are other bidders, they never lie

Problem solved!!

What a flawed system that is.

connacht_man

shawty wrote: »

I'm a first time buyer and I have been out bid on a number of houses.

Is there a way for me to find out if the other bids really exist? If I bid 100 and get a call from the agent saying it's now at 101, how do I really know there is a real bid in? How do I know the agent is not just trying to get the highest amount they can?

you cant know for sure , its best to be philosophical

play along with the estate agent and know that they all lie through there teeth , if you bid 250 k and he comes back with a phantom bid of 252 , don't let on you know he is being dishonest , these people have no shame , just let him know you are only prepared to make one final offer etc

baschically you accept that they will try and play you and play the game the best you can

connacht_man

L1011 wrote: »

It'll show pretty much as soon as the sale closes - which can be months out.

Being too eager to get a house is enough reason for an EA to start playing the fake bids game. You can't let them realise you've "fallen in love" (most commonly used term on here) with a house, for instance.

in a rising market like this one , they will play you to some degree , its about letting them know you have a boundary

shawty

connacht_man wrote: »

its best to be philosophical

I would like to buy this house but be aware I'm very philosophical!

Thanks for tips, I'm sure they can all smell the first time buyer off me from a mile away.

jon1981

You could get a friend who sounds convincing to call the EA and enquire if there are other bidders and current offering? I guess they'd have to do some ground work first rather than jumping straight in with the question or they'll sniff it out.

Rackstar

shawty wrote: »

I don't want to withdraw, I want the house!!

I didn't think the property price register was that live a system, is it?

Don't get hung up on the house or emotionally attached. If you do, you're setting yourself up for disappointment and over paying for the house.

shawty

jon1981 wrote: »

You could get a friend who sounds convincing to call the EA and enquire if there are other bidders and current offering? I guess they'd have to do some ground work first rather than jumping straight in with the question or they'll sniff it out.

I like that!

connacht_man

shawty wrote: »

I would like to buy this house but be aware I'm very philosophical!

Thanks for tips, I'm sure they can all smell the first time buyer off me from a mile away.

don't over think that one , they tend to talk in riddles and you need to as well , by that I mean skirt around the price etc , no definitive statements

L1011

connacht_man wrote: »

in a rising market like this one , they will play you to some degree , its about letting them know you have a boundary

The market is static or declining in a huge amount of areas, though. Lending restrictions have hit finally.

spaceHopper

Even if you believe there are no other bidders you have to at least offer a price the seller will accept, low balling won't work.

What is the house worth to you, use that as your guide. If there are other bidders then ask the EA are they in a chain, do they have a deposit and mortgage approval..... if he hasn't asked you the same they you could be bidding against a dreamer, if he doesn't know make him go find out. If you don't have it then you are being used to get some other sucker to up their offer.

If they call back with a grand more then if you are going to go up wait a couple of days before you do and maybe make it more than a grand, make it a months rent and try to be the highest on Friday evening so that they are thinking about it over the weekend

shawty

spaceHopper wrote: »

What is the house worth to you, use that as your guide.

That's been my thinking. Figure out what I think it's worth, don't get too attached and if it goes above that then walk away.

They say it's a "buyers market" but it really just sounds like a good EAs market to me.

jon1981

It's not a buyers market, hasn't been for about 2 years now. Seems H1 2012 was the ideal time!



From http://www.ronanlyons.com/category/blog/propertymarket/

shawty

jon1981 wrote: »

It's not a buyers market, hasn't been for about 2 years now.

Well prices are dropping a bit again in certain spots.

yayaitsme

I'm in the same position at the moment, we put in a bid, and next thing a new bidder offered the full asking price. I'm just not sure what to do.

shawty

yayaitsme wrote: »

I'm in the same position at the moment, we put in a bid, and next thing a new bidder offered the full asking price. I'm just not sure what to do.

Good luck

etoughguy

As someone who has dealt with 3 sets of auctioneers over the years (both buying and selling) I can say about all 3 I wouldn't trust a word that comes out of their mouth. I cant say all auctioneers are lying so and sos but personally I would take what they say with a grain of salt. Dont be pressurised by them

filbert the fox

Heard Ray D'arcy interview a property agent there. She will do all that donkey work and learned her trade from Phil Spencer (ooooh that Kirsty one!!) . anyway she said that the market was audited and that EA's were leaving themselves open to losing their licences if there was any sharp practice like this.

(Don't think Ray was convinced...ahem!)

SOooooooooo IMHO the EA's have only one goal..... to get the best price for the vendor...

you have to be crafty

shawty

filbert the fox wrote: »

.. she said that the market was audited and that EA's were leaving themselves open to losing their licences if there was any sharp practice like this.

Has there ever been a suggestion that some regulations could be introduced like some central database EAs had to update with official bids?

If yes, could this be pushed through in the next week or so

connacht_man

L1011 wrote: »

The market is static or declining in a huge amount of areas, though. Lending restrictions have hit finally.

the dip has passed , trust me , I know the Dublin and galway market well

I Am The Law

connacht_man wrote: »

in a rising market like this one , they will play you to some degree , its about letting them know you have a boundary

Could I ask what market you are referring to here?

yayaitsme

shawty wrote: »

Good luck

Thanks shawty , and good luck

alastair

L1011 wrote: »

The market is static or declining in a huge amount of areas, though. Lending restrictions have hit finally.

The CSO say otherwise. Outside Dublin it's continuing to rise, and the level of price falls in Dublin are both small and localised. Much of Dublin is still quite buoyant (actually most of it is, even where the limited drop in prices is more pronounced). So no 'huge' amount of declining price areas evident in the stats, and where there is a decline, it's minimal stuff.

TonyStark

Riskymove wrote: »

you have to assume that the EA is doing exactly that. they are paid by the seller and usually a % of the price.

unfortunately you can't know for sure.

try and find out how long the property is on the market, the sudden arrival of other bidders can be suspicious alright.

Estate agents will usually just want to close the deal. An extra couple of thousand will only mean a few hundred for them. Not in their interest to have protracted sales.

Play it cool though, they will try to get easy cash out of you if they sense desperation. You could bluff and tell them the bank is calling time on your loan offer, you've seen another house and the owners are keen for a quick sale.

As others have said these guys will step up if they smell your love for the house.

CreepingDeath

shawty wrote: »

I would like to buy this house but be aware I'm very philosophical!

Thanks for tips, I'm sure they can all smell the first time buyer off me from a mile away.

Nothing wrong with being a first time buyer, sellers love them because they don't have to sell a house, they've the cash/mortgage already.
So it's unlikely that the sale will fall through during the conveyancing process.

The best way to play it cool with an estate agent when you love a house is to put in a bid, but if they start messing you around then casually ask about other houses on their books, or if they have similar properties in that price range. It's show them that you're not fixated on that property, and not a sure thing.

Or play the time limited bid card, and say I'm an eager cash buyer, I'll bid the asking price but won't keep that offer on the table indefinitely.
I'll revoke that offer next Friday.

But you have to be realistic.
Houses that are priced competitively in an area, or have seen their asking price drop are there to get people in the door to spark a bidding war.

newacc2015

Read Freakonomics section on "realtors" aka estate agents. Most estate agents want to close a sale quickly. OP think about it. Do you really think an estate agent who is on 1 or 2 % Commission, really wants to create a phantom seller to get a few extra euros on a €100k house? I could understand on a trophy home, where 1 or 2% commission on extra 10k or 20k is significant. But not on a 100k house, most likely not. Most estate agents want to get rid of lower priced homes to focus on high value, high commission sales.

Jen44

First time buyers are very appealing to the seller and to estate agents as they wont cause any delays waiting on their property to sell so I would use it as a positive. Put in your bid tell them its the highest you are willing to go and tell them you're ready to go and have no other property to sell

L1011

s

newacc2015 wrote: »

Read Freakonomics section on "realtors" aka estate agents. Most estate agents want to close a sale quickly. OP think about it. Do you really think an estate agent who is on 1 or 2 % Commission, really wants to create a phantom seller to get a few extra euros on a €100k house? I could understand on a trophy home, where 1 or 2% commission on extra 10k or 20k is significant. But not on a 100k house, most likely not. Most estate agents want to get rid of lower priced homes to focus on high value, high commission sales.

The simple fact is that Irish estate agents constantly do create phantom bids. The greed for an extra hundred quid definitely hits in a lot of cases. Also agents who are either too lazy or too scared to go to the seller with "too low" bids trying to get to the asking price before they even go to the seller.

Michael D Not Higgins

L1011 wrote: »

The simple fact is that Irish estate agents constantly do create phantom bids. The greed for an extra hundred quid definitely hits in a lot of cases. Also agents who are either too lazy or too scared to go to the seller with "too low" bids trying to get to the asking price before they even go to the seller.

Exactly, it's not the commission they're after, it's the quick sale. And they've already gauged what the seller is looking for and it's not even the asking price a lot of the time.

If you're a few grand short of what the seller wants, of course the agent is going to squeeze you for a bit more. They shouldn't invent bids to do so but we take it as a given that they do it anyway.

shawty

If the EAs make €50/€100 on a €5000 increase, I'm hoping that an offer of the asking which has the seller happy will prompt the EA into getting the sale over the line quickly, not waste their time looking for an extra 30-50 quid.

campingcarist

I have just paid a deposit on a property. It was originally on offer at 99k but went up to 99k. I viewed it and offered 85k waited for a month or so then a 96k offer was received. I said, OK they can have it I won't bid any more. 2 weeks later I get an email from the EA saying the property was back on the market was I interested? So this time I offered 83k and it was accepted.

Just shows you!

shawty

campingcarist wrote: »

I have just paid a deposit on a property. It was originally on offer at 99k but went up to 99k. I viewed it and offered 85k waited for a month or so then a 96k offer was received. I said, OK they can have it I won't bid any more. 2 weeks later I get an email from the EA saying the property was back on the market was I interested? So this time I offered 83k and it was accepted.

Just shows you!

At least you got a good deal

Michael D Not Higgins

shawty wrote: »

If the EAs make €50/€100 on a €5000 increase, I'm hoping that an offer of the asking which has the seller happy will prompt the EA into getting the sale over the line quickly, not waste their time looking for an extra 30-50 quid.

But if you go to asking price straight off the bat, the seller then thinks they've priced too low and hold out for more. The psychology is maddening at times.

filbert the fox

Michael D Not Higgins wrote: »

Exactly, it's not the commission they're after, it's the quick sale. And they've already gauged what the seller is looking for and it's not even the asking price a lot of the time.

If you're a few grand short of what the seller wants, of course the agent is going to squeeze you for a bit more. They shouldn't invent bids to do so but we take it as a given that they do it anyway.

Michael D is that We your royal we. I hope so as I'm one who doesn't take anything as a given and I'm sure there are lots of others around here who feel the same.

The property selling game is like poker. There are lots of possibilities and there's a lot at stake. Bluffing on both sides is a frequent tactic. Showing your hand without the other side paying is not on. You may have a better hand but sometimes the bluff will force you to fold.

Unlike poker however, you still have all your money.:D

Michael D Not Higgins

filbert the fox wrote: »

Michael D is that We your royal we. I hope so as I'm one who doesn't take anything as a given and I'm sure there are lots of others around here who feel the same.

The property selling game is like poker. There are lots of possibilities and there's a lot at stake. Bluffing on both sides is a frequent tactic. Showing your hand without the other side paying is not on. You may have a better hand but sometimes the bluff will force you to fold.

Unlike poker however, you still have all your money.:D

I'm not saying they're all at it or that they do it all the time. There are occasions I've read about in this forum where it looks suspiciously like an invented bid (house on the market for weeks, person bids, next day there's a higher bid, the chances are low in my opinion). Of course you've got to see there's a bit of bluffing going on.

I've also read some other stories here where the EA is straight with the buyer and says, "the seller wants another 5k" instead of inventing a bid to push them up. It really depends on the agent, the house, the area, and how much money they think you have left to play with.

shawty

The amount of times I've heard an EA say recently, "Ok I'm just going to be honest with you" is funny. It's usually followed by them saying they "honestly" could give you the house if you bid just a little bid more!

filbert the fox

shawty wrote: »

The amount of times I've heard an EA say recently, "Ok I'm just going to be honest with you" is funny. It's usually followed by them saying the "honestly" could give you the house if you bid just a little bid more!

Two Ronnies had it to a T. (Beware:slight poetic licence used)

"And now the News. A coach crash today left a bus driver, 27 schoolchildren and two estate agents dead. 28 people with a perfect right to live , and two estate agents!"

Call me Al

Kid you not, but family of mine were highest bidder, only ones left in the game after what I think was months of bids, when the EA eventually came back to them and said house was theirs if they just offered €20k more on TOP OF THEIR OWN FINAL BID.
They held their nerve, said no, and they got their house.

Michael D Not Higgins

Call me Al wrote: »

Kid you not, but family of mine were highest bidder, only ones left in the game after what I think was months of bids, when the EA eventually came back to them and said house was there's if they just offered €20k more on TOP OF THEIR OWN FINAL BID.
They held their nerve, said no, and they got their house.

In that case you know they're chancing their arm. It's all about context.

shawty

I was onto an EA about a place I liked and he said there was an offer in on it which was 5k under the asking.

Then he said to me that he had offered the house to the buyer at 2k under the asking! Basically trying to make sure I didn't just go 1k above the current bid...... I think. Who knows.

He said he was being honest with me though :cool:

jmayo

connacht_man wrote: »

you cant know for sure , its best to be philosophical

play along with the estate agent and know that they all lie through there teeth , if you bid 250 k and he comes back with a phantom bid of 252 , don't let on you know he is being dishonest , these people have no shame , just let him know you are only prepared to make one final offer etc

baschically you accept that they will try and play you and play the game the best you can

I like to test them.
You find some detail like past planning, past sale, etc about the property.
Then ask EA and see if they come back with truth or lie.
Of course sometimes they can come back with nothing meaning they haven't bothered doing any research.
Even ask general questions about area like traffic in morning, breakins, etc and see how much they lie.

I reckon if you put most of them on a polygraph it would look like a magnitude 9 earthquake was happening.

Rackstar wrote: »

Don't get hung up on the house or emotionally attached. If you do, you're setting yourself up for disappointment and over paying for the house.

Could you tell that to my missus. :mad:

L1011

shawty wrote: »

If the EAs make €50/€100 on a €5000 increase, I'm hoping that an offer of the asking which has the seller happy will prompt the EA into getting the sale over the line quickly, not waste their time looking for an extra 30-50 quid.

Far from guaranteed. If the EA has smelt blood and knows you're too eager / have the cash (e.g. managed to get you to show your AIP to them) they'll keep at it.

shawty

jmayo wrote: »

I like to test them.
You find some detail like past planning, past sale, etc about the property.
Then ask EA and see if they come back with truth or lie.
Of course sometimes they can come back with nothing meaning they haven't bothered doing any research.

When I ask them, what's the square footage on this place and they don't know I just stop asking them questions. Surprising how many don't know much about the houses they sell.

Michael D Not Higgins

shawty wrote: »

When I ask them, what's the square footage on this place and they don't know I just stop asking them questions. Surprising how many don't know much about the houses they sell.

I'm always surprised at the lack of information on square footage. I think they don't want the websites being able to sort by price per square foot.