How is Ireland a free state?

TallGlass

It's often occurred to me, are we all just not essentially tenants of the government? We don't technically own anything. Our houses we 'own' are essientally on land we rent from the government. Don't pay your taxes/water bill then your house is theres and you loose your land, but if your homeless then use the public land like parks etc.. To sleep rough. Pass it too a family member when you die and they are taxed, if you die and youve no other family then, well its there house now.

What I think, this arrangement was perfectly acceptable in the past now the government are just taking the piss, tax on top of tax. I mean what's the actual point in working to pay tax, then buying a house again paying more tax, then when you own a house you pay taxes on your house.

That's alot of tax and quite alot of money, for in my eyes not a whole lot. I mean I know tax is needed but not at these levels.

Then there's the funny thing they have each year called a budget. Well its not really a budget is it? Considering they put up the tax take for the government so how is that budgeting. I mean I budget my monthly pay for the month I don't just pull money out of thin air, or tell my employer each year here's how things are going to work next year.

TheLastMohican

Tall Glass? More like Half Empty to me.

Actually it's pretty much the exact opposite.

If you own your land you own your land, everything underneath it and the airspace above (except for "flying freeholds"). You elect a Government to carry out certain functions, you concede certain matters to it such as the right to levy taxes on you, but in turn it provides certain matters you could not address on your own, a health service, education etc. Indeed, in that role, they can do certain things that can impact the extent of your property referred to above, such as allow airplanes fly into the airspace above your land, retain the right to take minerals from under your land, require you to get planning permission etc. But they do not own it. And we are not tenants of the Government at all.

Maximus Alexander

Any suggestions for an alternative?

At least we, in theory, own the government. Take them away and what have you? You'll just be working for whoever has the biggest army or militia only you probably won't have a vote.

I'm not fond of paying taxes myself, but how would we get anything done without roads, a police force, a justice system, etc?

How would high tech industry that brings jobs and wealth to the country operate without any regulation or protection?

ThisRegard

OP demonstrates a remarkable ignorance of how much money the country has in its pockets.

Arsemageddon

....and another thing that confuses me is that they call it puppy love, but if you actually try to make love to a puppy you can be arrested.

It's not fair.

Kermit.de.frog

TallGlass wrote: »

That's alot of tax and quite alot of money, for in my eyes not a whole lot. I mean I know tax is needed but not at these levels.

I'll cut to the chase OP. Problem is money goes mostly to public sector wage increases and not better services. You are paying too much tax because overpaid public and civil servants get paid more for political reasons.

Simple.

TallGlass

Should have rang Niall Boylan up about this

TallGlass

ThisRegard wrote: »

OP demonstrates a remarkable ignorance of how much money the country has in its pockets.

Ain't no money in my pockets anyway. Put some in if you wish!

This is called rent seeking.

It's ironic that the OP should denounce the State for what he probably considers legalised theft, even though OP wants to do the exact same thing on a personal scale: allocate limited resources towards himself, at the expense of others, purely for his own benefit and nobody else's.

Do you believe you have a divine right to private property, for yourself and all your heirs?

ComfortKid

If you buy a property, and pay tax when purchasing it, that should be it. It should be your property and you should not have to pay another cent on it, nor should your son or daughter if you decide to give it to them.

endacl

TallGlass wrote: »

Should have rang Niall Boylan up about this

Waste of time. You should go full Adrian Kennedy. Talk to the people who really know what's what.

:pac:

Wright

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Actually it's pretty much the exact opposite.

Oh aye paying twice for water and having the Universal Social Charge dig its nails into my paycheck before tax is even taken sure feels like the exact opposite.

Saipanne

TallGlass wrote: »

It's often occurred to me, are we all just not essentially tenants of the government? We don't technically own anything. Our houses we 'own' are essientally on land we rent from the government. Don't pay your taxes/water bill then your house is theres and you loose your land, but if your homeless then use the public land like parks etc.. To sleep rough. Pass it too a family member when you die and they are taxed, if you die and youve no other family then, well its there house now.

What I think, this arrangement was perfectly acceptable in the past now the government are just taking the piss, tax on top of tax. I mean what's the actual point in working to pay tax, then buying a house again paying more tax, then when you own a house you pay taxes on your house.

That's alot of tax and quite alot of money, for in my eyes not a whole lot. I mean I know tax is needed but not at these levels.

Then there's the funny thing they have each year called a budget. Well its not really a budget is it? Considering they put up the tax take for the government so how is that budgeting. I mean I budget my monthly pay for the month I don't just pull money out of thin air, or tell my employer each year here's how things are going to work next year.

Don't like it? Then vote for a libertarian party. But be prepared to lose all the freebies.

Adamocovic

TallGlass wrote: »

It's often occurred to me, are we all just not essentially tenants of the government? We don't technically own anything. Our houses we 'own' are essientally on land we rent from the government. Don't pay your taxes/water bill then your house is theres and you loose your land, but if your homeless then use the public land like parks etc.. To sleep rough. Pass it too a family member when you die and they are taxed, if you die and youve no other family then, well its there house now.

What I think, this arrangement was perfectly acceptable in the past now the government are just taking the piss, tax on top of tax. I mean what's the actual point in working to pay tax, then buying a house again paying more tax, then when you own a house you pay taxes on your house.

That's alot of tax and quite alot of money, for in my eyes not a whole lot. I mean I know tax is needed but not at these levels.

Then there's the funny thing they have each year called a budget. Well its not really a budget is it? Considering they put up the tax take for the government so how is that budgeting. I mean I budget my monthly pay for the month I don't just pull money out of thin air, or tell my employer each year here's how things are going to work next year.

You see Ireland is a Free State because we gained independence from Britain. The Free State term refers to sovereignty or in our case lack of British Rule. It is a synonym for Republic.

Being titled a Free State does not mean everything is free or that we are exempt from taxes or budgets, frankly it has nothing to do with that but rather refers to our form of government or country.

I hope I have helped you understand why Ireland is a Free State.

EDIT: Also the term Free State i'm fairly sure has been done away with for a long time and we are just simply the Republic now.

Wright

Adamocovic wrote: »

I hope I have helped you understand why Ireland is a Free State.

Wow not condescending at all lol

biko

There hasn't been Free-Staters since 1921/22

Wright

Wright wrote: »

Oh aye paying twice for water and having the Universal Social Charge dig its nails into my paycheck before tax is even taken sure feels like the exact opposite.

I don't understand the confusion, you think that because you have to pay taxes the concept of freehold title does not exist? You think "I own my house, oh no they've brought in a tax, now my ownership is less legitimate"?

Adamocovic

Wright wrote: »

Wow not condescending at all lol

Ha sorry :pac: I try not to be condescending for the most part of my posts but this strikes be as a thread simply create to have a go with rants and arguments.

Paying taxes as much as people might not like it has no impact on our status as a Republic (or free state) and I don't see the point trying to be made here by the OP at all.

Adamocovic

Adamocovic wrote: »

Paying taxes as much as people might not like it has no impact on our status as a Republic (or free state) and I don't see the point trying to be made here by the OP at all.

Indeed.

Surely the whole point about being a republic is for its emphasis on national unity & solidarity, not the extreme atomisation of society into isolated individuals, like little feudal lords.

Ash.J.Williams

WE don't live under sharia so we're grand

diomed

You are free to state your economic policy.

BoJack Horseman

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

WE don't live under sharia so we're grand

Indeed, Sharia lives on the ground floor.
Its still not great though.

Wright

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I don't understand the confusion, you think that because you have to pay taxes the concept of freehold title does not exist? You think "I own my house, oh no they've brought in a tax, now my ownership is less legitimate"?

No I think that the lot we have in now are worse than what we would've had staying in the U.K.

BoJack Horseman

Wright wrote: »

No I think that the lot we have in now are worse than what we would've had staying in the U.K.

utopia is but a plane ride away

And I commend your age for being able to compare life, a century apart.
kudos!

Wright

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

utopia is but a plane ride away

And I commend your age for being able to compare life, a century apart.
kudos!

You might want to look up the difference between 'better' and 'best'.

Your second comment didn't make grammatical sense so I can't address it.

BoJack Horseman

Wright wrote: »

You might want to look up the difference between 'better' and 'best'.

Your second comment didn't make grammatical sense so I can't address it.

awww... its a shame hun.
We'll never hear your secret of century+ longevity.

Wright

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

awww... its a shame hun.
We'll never hear your secret of century+ longevity.

What do you think facetiousness gets you exactly?

Because its not really getting you much from where I'm standing.

BoJack Horseman

Wright wrote: »

What do you think facetiousness gets you exactly?

Because its not really getting you much from where I'm standing.

It gets a whole lot more than internet whinging.... yearning like an emo teen for life under her majesty.

You will be glad to know that the country is indeed free enough to allow you to f*ck off out of it if you find it so intolerable.

donegaLroad

because OP, it has gone from prosperity for all, to the rich takes all.

kjl

OK, so OP's argument is rubbish, but he does raise a good point.

My grandfather worked hard his entire life and put aside some shares in Irish Life and bought a nice house for my grandmother to see her into old age.

Then our government decided to guarantee the debt of private banks and my grandmother who doesn't earn any money and whose shares are now worthless now has to pay property tax on this house, which was paid for with money that was taxed. Taxing tax.

And where is it all going? To pay off some debt that isn't even ours.

This country is a joke, the politicians are idiots and no matter what you think, we are not free.

Wright

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

It gets a whole lot more than internet whinging.... yearning like an emo teen for life under her majesty.

You will be glad to know that the country is indeed free enough to allow you to f*ck off out of it if you find it so intolerable.

No it gets you far less than you think. Plus post reported for offensive language of course.

Wright

kjl wrote: »

OK, so OP's argument is rubbish, but he does raise a good point.

My grandfather worked hard his entire life and put aside some shares in Irish Life and bought a nice house for my grandmother to see her into old age.

Then our government decided to guarantee the debt of private banks and my grandmother who doesn't earn any money and whose shares are now worthless now has to pay property tax on this house, which was paid for with money that was taxed. Taxing tax.

And where is it all going? To pay off some debt that isn't even ours.

This country is a joke, the politicians are idiots and no matter what you think, we are not free.

Summed it up nicely.

OneOfThem

How come Bluewolf or Permabear or one of them lads never take the time to post in these type threads in AH? They're clever guys and argue their case well. Why is the likes of the OP left stumbling blindly around in no man's land trying to get their point across (no offence, I'd do not better myself, I'm sure.). Where's the comradeship? Say what you want about the communists, but those guys know how to stick together at least. You're being made look bad compared to the commies for crying out loud. Commies! What's the matter, AH beneath you? Ah lads, you used to be cool.

mikeym

We got to vote twice on the Lisbon and Nice Treaty's which was very democratic of the Government.

Aenaes

Deleted User wrote: »

If you own your land you own your land, everything underneath it and the airspace above (except for "flying freeholds"). But they do not own it.

Except it can be compulsory purchased off you at anytime. Either for the land itself or something underneath it (eg. water).

Wright

mikeym wrote: »

We got to vote twice on the Lisbon and Nice Treaty's which was very democratic of the Government.

Another good point. Not sure how a sound bunch of republican lads could argue against that. (While slagging off communists at the same time, for no reason).

Into The Blue

TallGlass wrote: »

That's alot of tax and quite alot of money, for in my eyes not a whole lot. I mean I know tax is needed but not at these levels.

You know those motor ways dotted around the place? Your life time tax contribution wouldnt pay more than a couple of hundred yards of it..

So next time you're using billions of Euros worth of others tax, be thankful.

Aenaes

Aenaes wrote: »

Except it can be compulsory purchased off you at anytime. Either for the land itself or something underneath it (eg. water).

Oh absolutely.

To ensure that as part of this whole social contract, we also allow the State acquire property, again for public utility. After all, there wouldn't be much sense demanding that the Government build better roads or hospitals if people who owned the lands in the way of those utilities could prevent them.

But as has been long since established by the Courts, the notion of compulsory purchase does not per se attack our Constitutional right to private property, not does it mean that those of us with freehold title are recategorised as "tenants of the Government".

It a you cant have it both way, the op can go to parts of Africa or pars of south America where there is little or no rule of law, live in a compound with a gun to protect yourself as their is no law or infrastructure or facilities or tax and then you can be free, however what happens when you need medical attention education or what happens if you are shot or assaulted, what happens when you are old and cant work.

Kermit.de.frog

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Problem is money goes mostly to public sector wage increases

Any evidence for this arrant nonsense?

BoJack Horseman

Deleted User wrote: »

Any evidence for this arrant nonsense?

none.

the PS pay & pension bill amounts to 1/3 of government expenditure

Massimo Cassagrande

Into The Blue wrote: »

You know those motor ways dotted around the place? Your life time tax contribution wouldnt pay more than a couple of hundred yards of it..

So next time you're used billions of Euros worth of others tax, be thankful.

Cough..tolls..cough...

Anyone who believes they own their property and have some sort of inviolable right to it lives in La La Land. You live there at the mercy of the state and are allowed to do so as long as you remain compliant with their rules/They don't want it for something/you don't fall foul of Revenue. If it has a mortgage attached, you are even less "the owner" - the lender owns it till you pay back what's owed. Stop paying, they want it back.

So far, so normal. Inheritance Tax however, is a whole nother ball of wax - the amount of famalies who have to sell an inherited property simply because they have no chance of affording the Tax due otherwise is high. More so if you inherit a family members farm - that starts getting seriously spendy right off. Remember, all the money used to buy that farm/keep ownership of that farm was already taxed fully as income..and then it gets taxed again. To me, that is immoral.

TallGlass

It's amazing how if you start one of these threads about tax people some how think your a loon. Never once did I mention never paying tax, my argument is that if your buying a house for example and its taxed when you buy it then why is there a property tax? I mean I work, pay taxes on my pay, then for everything else which is also taxed.

Just to me it dosent seem like a very sustainable model to just keep on either creating new taxes or just continuesly rising others. Should someone not actually try addressing some issues? If they are brave enoght to heap on more tax on people they they should be brave enough to cut back on spending and save some money to ease up on some of the taxes us workers are paying. As an example in the HSE who would be the highest paid worker? Is it a doctor or a nurse, more than likely not, expect these are the people to get continuesly hit with decreases in pay and taxes to the point where we are struggling to keep them.

Laugh at my terminology or my madness but there's a serious problem for people for my generation and unless it's addressed, this top heavy society of people handed freebies and others with over inflated pay will have a massive negative impact in a decade or two when there's no people to keep the tax lights on, then they'll be screwed again. You can't just expect to drive people out of the country in there 20s and expect it be alright in a few years.

As for a solution? I pay these guys to come up with a solution, and it looks to me like they are doing an awful job at future planning, yes there are more jobs but there are still some serious issues hanging around like housing and healthcare yet, even with all our taxes they still cannot sort it out. So guess my point, why all the tax and yet still all the problems.

Maximus Alexander

If you raise taxes, people complain. If you cut spending, people complain.

Given the options, might as well raise taxes and bathe in money while people complain.

Adamocovic

TallGlass wrote: »

It's amazing how if you start one of these threads about tax people some how think your a loon. Never once did I mention never paying tax, my argument is that if your buying a house for example and its taxed when you buy it then why is there a property tax? I mean I work, pay taxes on my pay, then for everything else which is also taxed.

Just to me it dosent seem like a very sustainable model to just keep on either creating new taxes or just continuesly rising others. Should someone not actually try addressing some issues? If they are brave enoght to heap on more tax on people they they should be brave enough to cut back on spending and save some money to ease up on some of the taxes us workers are paying. As an example in the HSE who would be the highest paid worker? Is it a doctor or a nurse, more than likely not, expect these are the people to get continuesly hit with decreases in pay and taxes to the point where we are struggling to keep them.

Laugh at my terminology or my madness but there's a serious problem for people for my generation and unless it's addressed, this top heavy society of people handed freebies and others with over inflated pay will have a massive negative impact in a decade or two when there's no people to keep the tax lights on, then they'll be screwed again. You can't just expect to drive people out of the country in there 20s and expect it be alright in a few years.

As for a solution? I pay these guys to come up with a solution, and it looks to me like they are doing an awful job at future planning, yes there are more jobs but there are still some serious issues hanging around like housing and healthcare yet, even with all our taxes they still cannot sort it out. So guess my point, why all the tax and yet still all the problems.

I have no problems with people debating tax and bringing up tax threads, I do however wonder why title it "How is Ireland a free state" and not something more relative to your questions or views about the tax system.

That seems like a title driven to just get views. The tax rates and what is or what is not taxed has no bearing at all at our countries classification as a republic or "free state", maybe you titled it like that as some sort of witty reference to your opinion on our government and the system but it has completely gone over my head and I still am not sure why you gave it that title other than to attract people to view the thread similarly like click bait stories on news sites...and if you did fair play, it worked at least.

BoJack Horseman

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

none.

the PS pay & pension bill amounts to 1/3 of government expenditure

If only we could hire Éamonn Rothwell to come in and sack all the public servants and replace all the hospitals, schools, Garda and fire stations with machines we could cut back on this bill.

Wacker The Attacker

we're all like free and sh1t

Dry Rain

I have to come here because my thread from a similar perspective was closed.

I have the ultimate solution.

Plants that are growing beside each other will fight over resources (sunlight etc).
But if two plants that are related to each other are growing beside each other, they will work together to survive and will both grow healthier than plants that are fighting.

Because working together is a great solution in nature, I believe that we should not elect governments to make our decisions but that WE, the people of the nation, should work together to improve life for all.

Human life is ruined because we're always hearing about crime relating to money. People rigging bank rates etc.

What's the government about? Taking money off people. Why do people join the government? To get huge annual earnings.

It's time for change. Wake up.

BoJack Horseman

Dry Rain wrote: »

Wake up.

you forgot to add Sheeple!

no more government I say.
Somalia does without & they are on the up & up.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

The short answer is, we are not a Free State but a Republic.