being let go before maternity leave?

celligraphy

Hi guys , sister of mine works in a creche full time for nearly two years she recently found out she is pregnant and told the boss. She is due in January , also two new girls were hired a few months ago take note. So my sister asks boss if maternity leave is paid for by the company boss keeps off putting the answer .

Anyways my sister gets a call yesterday saying she is being left go next month she doesn't have a job there anymore and that they might call her next year if a part time job arises?

Is this legal??

Penny Tration

Did her boss give her a reason for letting her go?

After one year in the job, she has lots of legal protection. Tell your sister to immediately get in touch with a solicitor.

Mrs OBumble

I would be extremely surprised if any creche or other early childhood provider offers paid maternity leave.

Is she qualified? Are the two new employees qualified? Even if what is being done is illegal (which I suspect it is) the management may be able to find a way to dress it up as legal.

efb

It's very difficult to dismiss someone while pregnant- get your sister to contact sol/ee rights group

davo10

Op, was your sister employed full time for the last 2 years or was she on term contracts with 3 month breaks for the summer,

sheesh

She is legally entitled to a written reason as to why she is being let go. request it in writing or email and the manager has to give a reply I think it was within a week.

Riskymove

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I would be extremely surprised if any creche or other early childhood provider offers paid maternity leave.

there is no obligation to do so and that really isn't the issue

as you mention the issue is the reason for being let go and how it is portrayed

Graham

Take a look here and specifically read the section on dismissal:

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/What_You_Should_Know/Ending_the_Employment_Relationship/Ending_the_Employment_Relationship.html

If your sister suspects the dismissal is unfair then read this:

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Referring-a-Dispute/Overview/

davo10

Seen as OP hasn't come back yet with an answer to my question, I'll expand a little. A lot of creshes close during the summer months when the schools are off so employees are often employed for fixed terms. If the period between employment terms is three months or more, then the ops sister has not been employed for two years. The reason I think this is the case is that the op stated that she will not be employed next month which is the time when creshes typically reopen. When a contract has run its course, being pregnant does not entitle you to have it renewed. So the OP's sister's rights depend on the type of employment contract she has and whether she was paid/worked continuously (with less than a 3 month break in employment) over the last two years.

Mrs OBumble

Riskymove wrote: »

there is no obligation to do so and that really isn't the issue

as you mention the issue is the reason for being let go and how it is portrayed

If I ran a creche, and one of my employees asked "do you have paid maternity leave", I would seriously question their connection with reality, and therefore their suitability for working with vulnerable people.

Maybe that makes me a horrible cow.

But it's genuinely what I'd think. And I'd be looking to move the employee along just because of it.

Graham

davo10 wrote: »

So the OP's sister's rights depend on the type of employment contract she has and whether she was paid/worked continuously (with less than a 3 month break in employment) over the last two years.

Without additional info, it's impossible to suggest any course of action other than take qualified legal advice or contact workplace relations.

It's worth pointing this out:

Unfair Dismissal

The Unfair Dismissals Acts apply to employees over the age of 16 years with at least 12 months’ continuous service.

The requirement of one year’s continuous service does not apply where the dismissal results from:

• an employee’s pregnancy, giving birth or breastfeeding or any matters connected therewith
• the exercise or proposed exercise by an employee of a right under the Maternity Protection Act, 1994 & 200

Graham

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If I ran a creche, and one of my employees asked "do you have paid maternity leave", I would seriously question their connection with reality, and therefore their suitability for working with vulnerable people.

It sounds like a fairly straightforward questions to ask and one which you would reasonably expect to be answered yes/no.

Calhoun

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If I ran a creche, and one of my employees asked "do you have paid maternity leave", I would seriously question their connection with reality, and therefore their suitability for working with vulnerable people.

Maybe that makes me a horrible cow.

But it's genuinely what I'd think. And I'd be looking to move the employee along just because of it.

It does indeed make you look like in your words a horrible cow and if your view point that someone who may not know their own rights (as they are asking here) is unfit for duty for their job based on this question I think you own reality needs review.

In this environment particularly a creche going for what looks like a constructive dismissal based upon pregnancy of all things is a dangerous thing.

Rose35

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If I ran a creche, and one of my employees asked "do you have paid maternity leave", I would seriously question their connection with reality, and therefore their suitability for working with vulnerable people.

Maybe that makes me a horrible cow.

But it's genuinely what I'd think. And I'd be looking to move the employee along just because of it.

Extremely harsh. An employee has every right to ask this question regardless of what industry they work in and i say this as someone that sits on a childcare committee

otwb1

davo10 wrote:

A lot of creshes close during the summer months when the schools are off so employees are often employed for fixed terms. If the period between employment terms is three months or more, then the ops sister has not been employed for two years. The reason I think this is the case is that the op stated that she will not be employed next month which is the time when creshes typically reopen. When a contract has run its course, being pregnant does not entitle you to have it renewed. So the OP's sister's rights depend on the type of employment contract she has and whether she was paid/worked continuously (with less than a 3 month break in employment) over the last two years.

I'd be wary of this, if the crèche is actually closed and the employee would reasonably expect to be employed/ or have been given an indication that she would be reemployed while the crèche is open then there may be an argument for continuous employment despite the summer break.

..anyhow it's irrelevant seeing as she is pregnant. Definitely needs to talk to an employment law expert on this one OP.

Larbre34

Asking about paid maternity leave is irrelevant. Either it is or it isnt, but she will get maternity benefit regardless, assuming her PRSI is continuous.

I would say what the employer is proposing is unlikely to be held to be fair and could be overturned by a tribunal. My guess is the employer is banking on your sister being too otherwise occupied with her baby to pursue it. But she should pursue it.

An employer does not get to hire new people and then terminate a more senior person, all other things being equal, during or after a period of maternity leave and make some excuse that the work isn't there

Mrs OBumble

Rose35 wrote: »

Extremely harsh. An employee has every right to ask this question regardless of what industry they work in and i say this as someone that sits on a childcare committee

And how many creches do you know that offer paid maternity leave?

Gazzmonkey

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If I ran a creche, and one of my employees asked "do you have paid maternity leave", I would seriously question their connection with reality, and therefore their suitability for working with vulnerable people.

Maybe that makes me a horrible cow.

But it's genuinely what I'd think. And I'd be looking to move the employee along just because of it.

And you would be sued into the ground and your business publicly shamed forever more.

And you would deserve every bit of it

Graham

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And how many creches do you know that offer paid maternity leave?

Not the point. Employee could be new to the industry, new to the country or may actually be working at one of the few creches that does offer paid maternity.

Regardless, asking the questions shouldn't be precluded based on the norm for other employers.

Judging someones capacity to perform their job based on that question could be a much bigger mistake to make.

Apologies OP, this is heading off topic.

Rose35

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And how many creches do you know that offer paid maternity leave?

That is irrelevant as I only sit on one committee associated with one creche so I am not qualified to answer that question. Who are you to question her capabilities because she asked a question, it's laughable really looking back on your replies.

zagmund

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If I ran a creche, and one of my employees asked "do you have paid maternity leave", I would seriously question their connection with reality, and therefore their suitability for working with vulnerable people.

Maybe that makes me a horrible cow.

But it's genuinely what I'd think. And I'd be looking to move the employee along just because of it.

This really is an astonishing position to take.

If an employee asked whether you contributed to their pension would you also think they were deluded? How about if they asked about coffee breaks? Or if they expressed a preference for blue M&Ms over red ones? Or is it just pregnancy related issues that indicate they are unsuitable for work?

z

sasta le

Do they have to pay it?or is it a perk

Stheno

sasta le wrote: »

Do they have to pay it?or is it a perk

No they don't have to pay it, there is maternity benefit that is paid by the DSP

ForestFire

I don't have too much time to post now, But you have a lot of rights when you are pregnant and I would definitely check this out in more detail.

Here is a link I posted previously (not had time to check again today).
I'm sure it has some information regarding your work rights. If not I have them stored somewhere that I can find tomorrow.

And also every employee should fell safe in asking any questions regarding there work right and entiltlments without fear of reprisal as someone else has suggested.

I have included a link to your rights while you are pregnant (Updated since last posted and embedded in larger document now:- http://www.ihrec.ie/download/pdf/employment_equality_act_1998.pdf
https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Publications_Forms/Guide_to_Maternity_Protection_Acts.pdf

And an important point, even if the company is not paying you during your maternity leave, you still have the right to your job, Holiday pay, and the right to return to the same position or equivalent as when you left.

Rose35

sasta le wrote: »

Do they have to pay it?or is it a perk

Some companies do some don't, some will pay for the full 6 months entitlement some will pay for less time.
Best to ask as each companies policies differ.
Everyone is entitled to maternity benefit from DSP.

MayoAreMagic

Maybe Im misinformed, but if they don't offer it (and there is a good chance they probably don't), then how is the ending of her employment related to it in any way?

ForestFire

I have the plain English maternity guide on my computer in PDF format that was on the now changed www.equality.ie website. I can email it to OP if you PM your details.

it is a very good simple guide

here are some other more good links


http://www.flac.ie/download/pdf/maternity_leave.pdf

And found a link to the other document

https://www.workplacerelations.ie/en/Publications_Forms/Guide_to_Maternity_Protection_Acts.pdf

ectoraige

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Maybe Im misinformed, but if they don't offer it (and there is a good chance they probably don't), then how is the ending of her employment related to it in any way?

The state provides a fixed payment during maternity leave to which every female worker is entitled. Some employers pay an additional amount to bring the employees income up to their normal rate, but there is no obligation to do so. There is an obligation though to allow the employee to take the maternity leave, and to keep the position available upon their return.

Stheno

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Maybe Im misinformed, but if they don't offer it (and there is a good chance they probably don't), then how is the ending of her employment related to it in any way?

It's irrelevant if she is being let go due to being pregnant, it's illegal to let someone go while they are pregnant

celligraphy

Thanks for all the replies , she has been working throughout the last two years no summers breaks or all that . She is a full time employee fully qualified etc, signed contracts and stuff.

Her work contract isn't up again until Feb 2016 .

They pay her for any sick days taken that's why she asked about maternity leave. She's very upset over all this

Stheno

celligraphy wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies , she has been working throughout the last two years no summers breaks or all that . She is a full time employee fully qualified etc, signed contracts and stuff.

Her work contract isn't up again until Feb 2016 .

They pay her for any sick days taken that's why she asked about maternity leave. She's very upset over all this

What was the reason for her being let go?

Tell her to contact a solicitor

godtabh

celligraphy wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies , she has been working throughout the last two years no summers breaks or all that . She is a full time employee fully qualified etc, signed contracts and stuff.

Her work contract isn't up again until Feb 2016 .

They pay her for any sick days taken that's why she asked about maternity leave. She's very upset over all this

If she signed a contract surely she knew if she was getting maternity leave or not. If it wasnt in the contract she wasn't getting it so why ask?

Stheno

godtabh wrote: »

If she signed a contract surely she knew if she was getting maternity leave or not. If it wasnt in the contract she wasn't getting it so why ask?

I've worked in loads of places that had maternity leave as the HR policy and not in a contract, you had to ask if it was paid or unpaid.

You are entitled to the leave regardless

godtabh

Stheno wrote: »

I've worked in loads of places that had maternity leave as the HR policy and not in a contract, you had to ask if it was paid or unpaid.

You are entitled to the leave regardless

so it was luck of the draw whether go got maternity leave or not?

I'm not questioning the entitlement of leave

Stheno

godtabh wrote: »

so it was luck of the draw whether go got maternity leave or not?

I'm not questioning the entitlement of leave

No it was considered a standard policy that HR were in charge of.

So they'd put nothing about it in contracts, and what I used do was ask about it before signing the contract and get a written confirmation of the policy

drunkmonkey

No harm in asking but before she runs off to a solicitor I suggest she talks with the owner, it's the manager that fired her for no reason, the owner might not even know, talk to the boss not their minion.

Rackstar

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If I ran a creche, and one of my employees asked "do you have paid maternity leave", I would seriously question their connection with reality, and therefore their suitability for working with vulnerable people.

Maybe that makes me a horrible cow.

But it's genuinely what I'd think. And I'd be looking to move the employee along just because of it.

I'd be seriously questioning a mod coming out with this sort of remark.

Mrs OBumble

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

And you would be sued into the ground and your business publicly shamed forever more.

And you would deserve every bit of it

Ahh, not I wouldn't. Because I wouldn't be as plain dumb as the OP's sister's employer has been. There are plenty of ways to move people along without getting into trouble for it.


But in an industry where the answer to questions like "Do you offer paid maternity leave" or "Do you contribute to pensions"

is more

"You have got to be *** joking" than plain old "no", then repeatedly asking the question would be seen as a problem employee, at very best.


Let's be clear: the OP's sister should be consulting a solicitor at this stage, because the later details provided (qualified, working permanently for 2+ years) make it clear that what's been done is blatantly illegal.

But she also needs to learn a bit about managing her employer's perception of her.

celligraphy

She doesn't remember reading it , the manager let her go the boss knows, as the boss is the managers mother .

She's asked for a copy of the contract but they said they lost it .

Don't really know what else to do to help her out as she's really shy and scared incase they refuse to give her a reference .

allym

They're fobbing her off. She really needs to speak to an employment law solictor.

Penny Tration

celligraphy wrote: »

She doesn't remember reading it , the manager let her go the boss knows, as the boss is the managers mother .

She's asked for a copy of the contract but they said they lost it .

Don't really know what else to do to help her out as she's really shy and scared incase they refuse to give her a reference .

The best thing she can do now is go talk to a solicitor. What they're doing is totally illegal.

davo10

Op if she has been working and been paid continuously for two years, then the manager is a complete fool for doing what she did, your sister has rights during pregnancy which will make this case a slam dunk case of discrimination and unfair dismissal. However, redress will be limited to the amount she would lose between now and the end of her term contract in February. Again, pregnancy does not entitle the employee to automatic renewel of a term contract provided the contract states clearly that the Unfair Dismisssls Act does not apply at the end of the contract. She needs to get a copy of that contract and to be honest, it would work in her favour of they cannot produce it as she could argue that she had a contract of unlimited duration which would typically entitle her to up to two years wages if she was successful in at the ET.

Roquentin

Graham wrote: »

It sounds like a fairly straightforward questions to ask and one which you would reasonably expect to be answered yes/no.

i think that poster is looking at it from the employer/business owners POV, which is understandable. they dont want to be losing money. greedy, yes, but thats the mentality

drunkmonkey

celligraphy wrote: »

She doesn't remember reading it , the manager let her go the boss knows, as the boss is the managers mother .

She's asked for a copy of the contract but they said they lost it .

Don't really know what else to do to help her out as she's really shy and scared incase they refuse to give her a reference .

Her next step is to contact nera and they will advisor her what to do, they'll unleash a world of pain on her employer.
She does not need a solicitor, nera should sort it out and give her all correct legal advise for free.

The Masculinist

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

If I ran a creche, and one of my employees asked "do you have paid maternity leave", I would seriously question their connection with reality, and therefore their suitability for working with vulnerable people.

Maybe that makes me a horrible cow.

But it's genuinely what I'd think. And I'd be looking to move the employee along just because of it.

Secondly, by that logic, would you also fire someone for asking for a pay rise? Support during maternity is something which many companies provide as standard. Asking shouldn't get you fired.

OP the best course is to get legal advice. If someone has been dismissed for being pregnant it is grounds for Unfair Dismissal as per the Unfair Dismissals Act.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/unemployment_and_redundancy/dismissal/unfair_dismissal.html

zagmund

I agree with many of the above comments. I have taken the very rare (for me) step of reporting some posts on this thread as, no matter who they are coming from they are very hard to understand and seem to be taking an abnormally harsh approach to someone for asking a normal work related question of their employer.

If the person had asked the boss to strip naked and dance around the office - sure, firing might be on the agenda. If she had asked to have her locker painted red with polka dots every Monday, firing might be a bit strong but a long hard think might be in order. If they asked could they take next Friday off, or if they were entitled to paid leave, or how many days annual leave they have . . . I mean, really.

z

MouseTail

Stheno wrote: »

It's irrelevant if she is being let go due to being pregnant, it's illegal to let someone go while they are pregnant

No its not. It is illegal to let someone go because they are pregnant, but they can be let go for other reasons during pregnancy. In this case , going on what the OP says, it seems to be because she is pregnant, no disciplinary issues etc. Straight to NERA. Very very foolish employer.

QuinDixie

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Ahh, not I wouldn't. Because I wouldn't be as plain dumb as the OP's sister's employer has been. There are plenty of ways to move people along without getting into trouble for it.


But in an industry where the answer to questions like "Do you offer paid maternity leave" or "Do you contribute to pensions"

is more

"You have got to be *** joking" than plain old "no", then repeatedly asking the question would be seen as a problem employee, at very best.


Let's be clear: the OP's sister should be consulting a solicitor at this stage, because the later details provided (qualified, working permanently for 2+ years) make it clear that what's been done is blatantly illegal.

But she also needs to learn a bit about managing her employer's perception of her.

Truly bizarre logic, we all want employee rights until we become employers ourselves.
Thank feck for Unfair Dismissal, 2 beautiful words that make all employers play fair when it comes to rights such as a womans right to have a baby and not be financially penalised for so.

roadrunner16

QuinDixie wrote: »

Truly bizarre logic, we all want employee rights until we become employers ourselves.
Thank feck for Unfair Dismissal, 2 beautiful words that make all employers play fair when it comes to rights such as a womans right to have a baby and not be financially penalised for so.

While its ridiculous that a company can try and fire someone for being pregnant I would see it as ok if a company didn't offer too much compensation for maternity leave, ie unpaid, so long as a job was waiting for them when they want to return to work, I will never understand the discriminatory attitude employers have towards women stopping working for pregnancy. someone mentioned earlier that they would question the connection of reality of someone seeking paid maternity leave in a childcare industry.... I would question the connection with reality of an employer in the childcare industry firing a pregnant employee unfairly....never mind the whole potential legal costs and nightmare that would create but purely the attitude it shows, imagine if that got out to the parents, I wouldn't want my ( non existent , ( please don't let me die alone ) future ) kids being looked after in a place run by someone with that attitude !

QuinDixie

roadrunner16 wrote: »

While its ridiculous that a company can try and fire someone for being pregnant I would see it as ok if a company didn't offer too much compensation for maternity leave, ie unpaid, so long as a job was waiting for them when they want to return to work, I will never understand the discriminatory attitude employers have towards women stopping working for pregnancy. someone mentioned earlier that they would question the connection of reality of someone seeking paid maternity leave in a childcare industry.... I would question the connection with reality of an employer in the childcare industry firing a pregnant employee unfairly....never mind the whole potential legal costs and nightmare that would create but purely the attitude it shows, imagine if that got out to the parents, I wouldn't want my ( non existent , ( please don't let me die alone ) future ) kids being looked after in a place run by someone with that attitude !

I agree, the key is that a woman can get pregnant and not immediately fear for her job OR her position with her employers.
We are all told europe is getting too old, that we are facing an economic and social upheaval. the answer to wanting a higher birth rate is not to penalise women for actually doing what government/society and funny enough employers want, higher birth rate.

Stheno

MouseTail wrote: »

No its not. It is illegal to let someone go because they are pregnant, but they can be let go for other reasons during pregnancy. In this case , going on what the OP says, it seems to be because she is pregnant, no disciplinary issues etc. Straight to NERA. Very very foolish employer.

Sorry I should have said that it's illegal in most cases, but there are limited circumstances in which it can happen