What needs to happen for Dublin Bus to run past 11.30pm?

Muahahaha

Was just on my last bus the other night, leaving town at 11.30. I was in a pub with a few friends and we all would have loved to have stayed another hour for a couple more pints but going our separate directions we werent willing to fork an extra €20 each on a taxi home. The last bus of the night was absolutely pretty packed, with lots of passengers getting on at the 3 city centre stops it passed through. Many of the passengers looked to be in the same boat as me, they were going home early not because they wanted to but because the last bus leaves town at 11.30pm. It seems crazy in a city like Dublin that is very busy at night that you can't get a bus home after 11.30. People can't spend more money in town because you have to add the price of a taxi to that extra pint or two.

What needs to happen for the bus times to get extended to 12.30. Would there be rostering problems with 8 hour shifts for drivers or is this something that could be got past? Is there any political will to see it ever happen?

zeffabelli

For the airport bus to cop into staged fares.

Already runs all night and cheaper than a cab.

pclive

Think the NTA are working on a 24hr service on certain core routes

Its been mentioned a few times on other posts. Maybe someone might have an update on it?

cgcsb

It was mooted as part of the tendering process for Dublin Bus last November with some trials to be run this year but the project seems to have been abandoned and there's no public consultation open.

punisher5112

Buses run late at weekends. (Nitelinks)

They also use to run on weeknights but that service was pulled as numbers were not there to keep it going.

Taxis have taken over as there are way way too many.


If I recall correctly times were 1230 & 2.00.

ComfortKid

What happens then when people don't want to go home at half 12, they just want 1 or 2 more.

cgcsb

punisher5112 wrote: »

Buses run late at weekends. (Nitelinks)

They also use to run on weeknights but that service was pulled as numbers were not there to keep it going.

Taxis have taken over as there are way way too many.


If I recall correctly times were 1230 & 2.00.

The nitelinks have artificially inflated fares. If there are 2 people travelling a taxi is cheaper than the nitelink to most inner suburbs and it's door to door.

24 hour buses would end the taxi business as it currently is. midnight to 6am is the taxi industry's peak times.

cdebru

cgcsb wrote: »

The nitelinks have artificially inflated fares. If there are 2 people travelling a taxi is cheaper than the nitelink to most inner suburbs and it's door to door.

24 hour buses would end the taxi business as it currently is. midnight to 6am is the taxi industry's peak times.

Well if you believe that maybe you have the answer as to why late night buses have apparently disappeared of the radar, the NTA is also the taxi regulator, pretty lucrative business renewing all those SPSV licences and the car testing, maybe getting rid of lots of taxis would have a major negative impact on NTA budgets.

cdebru

ComfortKid wrote: »

What happens then when people don't want to go home at half 12, they just want 1 or 2 more.

24 hour bus service along all major corridors, as long the NTA are willing to fund it of course.

LXFlyer

It would primarily be a funding issue - the HR agreements have been in place for some time.

Someone has to pay for it!

cgcsb

I think at the very least a handful of routes, say the 16,46a,39a and 15 should operate until 01:30. The 23:30 buses are generally just as packed as the peak hour ones in my experience.

shodge

As all of the delightful junkies and other miscreants inevitably have a free travel pass, the Garda are only too happy to see them head back home before the city centre is full of drunk people falling out of pubs/clubs.
There wont be a full night service if the Garda have any say in it.

cdebru

shodge wrote: »

As all of the delightful junkies and other miscreants inevitably have a free travel pass, the Garda are only too happy to see them head back home before the city centre is full of drunk people falling out of pubs/clubs.
There wont be a full night service if the Garda have any say in it.

Nonsense, so all the junkies head home for 11:30 do they ?

end of the road

punisher5112 wrote: »

Buses run late at weekends. (Nitelinks)

They also use to run on weeknights but that service was pulled as numbers were not there to keep it going.

Taxis have taken over as there are way way too many.


If I recall correctly times were 1230 & 2.00.

it could be re-examined though. was it even tried long enough for numbers to get a chance to increase?

cgcsb

junkies have semi-d's out in the burbs of course

end of the road

Muahahaha wrote: »

What needs to happen for the bus times to get extended to 12.30.

political will and funding

Muahahaha wrote: »

Is there any political will to see it ever happen?

most likely not

shodge

cdebru wrote: »

Nonsense, so all the junkies head home for 11:30 do they ?

News flash: The vast majority of junkies you see in city centre are coming in from the suburbs.
The Garda have enough on their plate with drunks in the small hours so don’t expect to see all night buses which would enable the junkies to come and go from their homes outside of city centre at all hour of the day.
If they banned free travel passes it might work, but you will have the usual sorts complain about that so it would be a non runner.

newacc2015

I lived in a city (Munich) which had night trams and Buses. They were always quite full and never had any major issues. Getting the night tram at 5am was mainly people going to work.

Obviously money will be needed for night buses. But if they are run every 30/45 mins on the weekend and hourly mid week. I imagine they would be more full, than most evening buses.

I honestly cant understand why the greenline Luas doesnt have a night service, considering there is never any major issues on it with anti-social behaviour and a lot of people going home to Dundrum/Sandyford would happily use it,instead of a taxi

TallGlass

cdebru wrote: »

Nonsense, so all the junkies head home for 11:30 do they ?

I don't think it's caused by the buses more so the hostels closing there doors around 9pm or so and they will be out on the street for the night.

I would like to say as a private motorist if the government ever want to see me back on public transport then, firstly they need to be 24 hours. We don't all work 9-5 in Ireland anymore.

LXFlyer

shodge wrote: »

News flash: The vast majority of junkies you see in city centre are coming in from the suburbs.
The Garda have enough on their plate with drunks in the small hours so don’t expect to see all night buses which would enable the junkies to come and go from their homes outside of city centre at all hour of the day.
If they banned free travel passes it might work, but you will have the usual sorts complain about that so it would be a non runner.

Do you think? I think that you might be surprised.


And they aren't all "junkies" either.

punisher5112

end of the road wrote: »

it could be re-examined though. was it even tried long enough for numbers to get a chance to increase?

If I recall nitelink started back in 94 and was good for many years but when dealing with so many taxi it couldnt keep up.

end of the road

shodge wrote: »

News flash: The vast majority of junkies you see in city centre are coming in from the suburbs.
The Garda have enough on their plate with drunks in the small hours so don’t expect to see all night buses which would enable the junkies to come and go from their homes outside of city centre at all hour of the day.
If they banned free travel passes it might work, but you will have the usual sorts complain about that so it would be a non runner.

the gardai can only object to it. they can't stop it from happening if the government decide its happening

cdebru

shodge wrote: »

News flash: The vast majority of junkies you see in city centre are coming in from the suburbs.
The Garda have enough on their plate with drunks in the small hours so don’t expect to see all night buses which would enable the junkies to come and go from their homes outside of city centre at all hour of the day.
If they banned free travel passes it might work, but you will have the usual sorts complain about that so it would be a non runner.

I bow to your superior knowledge as to their home addresses, maybe they don't all go home all the time then, because I see them around long after the last bus has left. And see lots of them sleeping in doorways in the morning, they must have missed the last bus I guess.

n97 mini

Edinburgh is smaller than Dublin and they have a model which would be easily replicated here.

cdebru

n97 mini wrote: »

Edinburgh is smaller than Dublin and they have a model which would be easily replicated here.

Funding is the issue though, night buses are not going to be able to be funded from revenue, particularly now with leapcard capping, even if night buses were outside the cap it still wouldn't wash its face and just make them unattractive to users, higher fares would make them even less attractive.

Ideally the NTA should operate them on the basis they plan to contract out services were they pay on km basis and retain revenue generated themselves.

newacc2015

cdebru wrote: »

Funding is the issue though, night buses are not going to be able to be funded from revenue, particularly now with leapcard capping, even if night buses were outside the cap it still wouldn't wash its face and just make them unattractive to users, higher fares would make them even less attractive.

Ideally the NTA should operate them on the basis they plan to contract out services were they pay on km basis and retain revenue generated themselves.

I cant imagine there being a substantial difference between revenue and expenditure, if they were hourly and the routes were scaled back significantly eg only day time profitable routes such as 46a, 4, 11 and not the likes of the 17a or 44. I can imagine an 46a going to UCD at 2.30 on a Friday evening being pretty packed. Likewise any other Bus covering university students or inner dense suburbs.

I would happily pay €2.50 to my inner suburb home. But asking me to pay €5 and having to walk 20 mins from the nightlink spot close to me is not worth.

Stephen15

newacc2015 wrote: »

I honestly cant understand why the greenline Luas doesnt have a night service, considering there is never any major issues on it with anti-social behaviour and a lot of people going home to Dundrum/Sandyford would happily use it,instead of a taxi

Maintence

dfx-

The main reason why the last buses are always heavily loaded is that the timetable is designed for that.

All major outbound corridors are empty for the previous 30-45 minutes because the last buses have such extra running time. So there's no 13 to Clondalkin from O'Connell St after 2245, a 45 minute wait to last bus. There's no 40 after 2300 until last bus, so the last 13 and 40 are very heavily loaded through Inchicore. A 40 minute wait for main city routes is going to see a large crowd, of course it is.

Same for Crumlin Rd, SCR, Terenure, Malahide Rd.

The last 15 to Clongriffin departs Ballycullen Rd at 2240, 50 minutes to get to Eden Quay and it absolutely crawls along so as not to get to the quays too early. The last 13 from Grange Castle is the same, crawls along, they have too much time.

One More Toy

You would literally have to extrerminate every scobe in dublin for this to happen.

Too dangerous IMHO

Del2005

newacc2015 wrote: »

I cant imagine there being a substantial difference between revenue and expenditure, if they were hourly and the routes were scaled back significantly eg only day time profitable routes such as 46a, 4, 11 and not the likes of the 17a or 44. I can imagine an 46a going to UCD at 2.30 on a Friday evening being pretty packed. Likewise any other Bus covering university students or inner dense suburbs.

I would happily pay €2.50 to my inner suburb home. But asking me to pay €5 and having to walk 20 mins from the nightlink spot close to me is not worth.

Thing is that the students would go back in a taxi as it'd be cheaper and quicker for a group.

Just because a route is busy during the working day doesn't mean it'll be busy at night, as the thousands using it on a weekday are highly unlikely to be going out late on a school night.

Before the taxis bred out of control night buses would have worked, but we have them poaching from the airport buses already so they'd hit the late bus stop 5 minutes before it's due and take the passengers.

thomasj

punisher5112 wrote: »

Buses run late at weekends. (Nitelinks)

They also use to run on weeknights but that service was pulled as numbers were not there to keep it going.

Taxis have taken over as there are way way too many.



If I recall correctly times were 1230 & 2.00.

In fairness, nitelinks were always useless.

Theyre one-way, run 2 days a week, run hourly and fairly expensive

And how useful are they if you're leaving a niteclub on Harcourt Street at 1:45am and have to get a bus to blanchardstown at 2am from westmoreland street with the next one an hour later.

Back when nitelinks were introduced westbound routes ran from Stephens green. Now that would be a bit more useful.

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

In fairness, nitelinks were always useless.

Theyre one-way, run 2 days a week, run hourly and fairly expensive

And how useful are they if you're leaving a niteclub on Harcourt Street at 1:45am and have to get a bus to blanchardstown at 2am from westmoreland street with the next one an hour later.

Back when nitelinks were introduced westbound routes ran from Stephens green. Now that would be a bit more useful.

To be fair, the Nitelinks were introduced during the run up to Christmas 1991 (jointly by private operators and Dublin Bus) with a specific purpose in mind, which was to clear the city centre of people who were stuck waiting for taxis (if you remember there was a chronic shortage).

They did exactly that very successfully, and were certainly not "useless".

Dublin Bus then continued to operate them ever since.

The additional departures from St Stephen's Green were added in the late 1990s but only operated for a number of years before they reverted to a single terminus at the city centre triangle again.

The market has since changed with far more people working at night, and the number of taxis has mushroomed significantly.

There definitely is a need to now look at providing a full night-time operation on each QBC, with potentially some routes being merged at night to provide a service to a larger area at the outer reaches of the QBCs.

As mentioned above, this is what happens in Edinburgh. They have a comprehensive network of 11 night-time routes that operate all week long. The following link gives an idea of what their services are like - http://lothianbuses.com/timetables-and-maps/night-buses

Timetables and a schematic map are here:
http://lothianbuses.com/assets/files/NB-150330.pdf

crushproof

lxflyer wrote: »

As mentioned above, this is what happens in Edinburgh. They have a comprehensive network of 11 night-time routes that operate all week long. The following link gives an idea of what their services are like - http://lothianbuses.com/timetables-and-maps/night-buses

Timetables and a schematic map are here:
http://lothianbuses.com/assets/files/NB-150330.pdf

Yes the core buses in Edinburgh provide a brilliant night service, and not at ridiculous jacked up fares either (£3 is very reasonable for a night bus IMO). Any time I've used these buses they've been quite busy, at any time of night.
As mentioned, times have changed and the number of night workers, late shifters and early risers continues to increase. It's ridiculous to rely on taxis as a means of late night public transport after 11.30PM in a major European capital city.

jahalpin

crushproof wrote: »

Yes the core buses in Edinburgh provide a brilliant night service, and not at ridiculous jacked up fares either (£3 is very reasonable for a night bus IMO). Any time I've used these buses they've been quite busy, at any time of night.
As mentioned, times have changed and the number of night workers, late shifters and early risers continues to increase. It's ridiculous to rely on taxis as a means of late night public transport after 11.30PM in a major European capital city.

I occasionally get the Nitelink and have always found it to be a very good service and very good value for money.

I have had an annual Taxsaver ticket for the last few years and the Nitelink is included so it is even better value

The current fare if you use a Leap Card is 5euros, so the fare of 4.50euros in Edinburgh is fairly similar

cdebru

newacc2015 wrote: »

I cant imagine there being a substantial difference between revenue and expenditure, if they were hourly and the routes were scaled back significantly eg only day time profitable routes such as 46a, 4, 11 and not the likes of the 17a or 44. I can imagine an 46a going to UCD at 2.30 on a Friday evening being pretty packed. Likewise any other Bus covering university students or inner dense suburbs.

I would happily pay €2.50 to my inner suburb home. But asking me to pay €5 and having to walk 20 mins from the nightlink spot close to me is not worth.

But how many of those students would have already reached their cap for the day or week ? So how much extra revenue would you actually be taking ? And what about the other routes and the rest of the night ? Pointing out one journey on one night on one route may be busy doesn't mean revenue would actually come anywhere near covering the cost of providing the service.

AlekSmart

cdebru wrote: »

But how many of those students would have already reached their cap for the day or week ? So how much extra revenue would you actually be taking ? And what about the other routes and the rest of the night ? Pointing out one journey on one night on one route may be busy doesn't mean revenue would actually come anywhere near covering the cost of providing the service.

The discussion regarding 24 hour operation are still ongoing.

Farebox Revenue associated with 24 Hour Service provision is NOT a deal-breaker in the negotiations,this is about a far broader concept than revenue,it is part of a concerted attempt to get Dublin's Public Transport systems on a Capital City footing,which even allowing for BXD's construction phase,IS a Work-in-Progress.

It has also to be recognised that,superimposing an extra layer of operations on any particular route has knock-on effects in terms of scheduling for both Vehicles and Personnel.

The actual planning has been ongoing for some time now,with rosters and draft operational guidelines already in place.

The issue currently appears to be the lack of adequate Operational Funding in the NTA's 2014/15 budget.

There may yet be a vote of additional funding to the NTA for some more PR friendly projects such as additional RTPI,and an extension of the Wi-Fi project.

Should this happen,I would expect an announcement in or around October to coincide with Christmas 2015 arrangements (Any odds on 2015 being the year for a return of Christmas Day services in Dublin ?)

"Changing With The City" was always a VERY good motto for a City's Transport provider to have.....:)

shodge

Two problems i see.
1> It would have to get some subsidy from the NTA.
A lot of people would all ready have hit the fare cap so no money to be made.
They wont be that busy other than friday/saturday.
So where would the NTA get the money from? Where could they cut other services to pay for a all night bus service?
2> If a all night bus service was successful it would put a lot of taxi drivers out of business, they would end up on the dole, i cant see the government doing anything that might increase the number of people claiming welfare.

JuliusCaesar

Ah, the nightbus. Used get them. Hourly and went close to where I lived - a 5 minute walk. Used to love it. Full of friendly people - but I loved also the atmosphere on the bus going into town at 8pm on a Friday night.

Now there are only two and it's a long walk through a dodgy area, so I don't use them anymore.

It's a shame that they think so narrowly always about transport. It's not just about transport and 'is this route profitable?' It's a public service that impacts on everybody's lives and across the whole of the budget.

It's about making the city less polluted, easier to navigate (cross roads), more pleasant, and fostering a sense of community (which doesn't happen when everyone is out for themselves, competing for taxis, rather than the bit of chat at the busstop). It's about health benefits (less pollution, a bit more walking).

It's about making the city attractive, rather than a standing traffic jam day and night.

strandroad

shodge wrote: »

They wont be that busy other than friday/saturday.

In cities where night transport is standard service, with standard fares, they are full all week long because people can rely on them.
Here if you work shifts or start early on a weekend you can only drive. Public transport does nor recognise you as a customer.

JuliusCaesar

mhge wrote: »

In cities where night transport is standard service, with standard fares, they are full all week long because people can rely on them.
Here if you work shifts or start early on a weekend you can only drive. Public transport does nor recognise you as a customer.

That's what I mean about the for-profit vs public transport as a public service.

cdebru

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

That's what I mean about the for-profit vs public transport as a public service.

Its not actually for profit or public service, it is about funding, at the end of the day any service has to be paid for, that is either from the people who use it in the form of fares or if there are insufficient passenger numbers to support the service by subvention from the state.
It is up to the NTA to decide if it is a necessary public service and that it will be subvented if it does not generate enough income to pay for itself.

Lifelike

shodge wrote: »

Two problems i see.
1> It would have to get some subsidy from the NTA.
A lot of people would all ready have hit the fare cap so no money to be made.
They wont be that busy other than friday/saturday.
So where would the NTA get the money from? Where could they cut other services to pay for a all night bus service?
2> If a all night bus service was successful it would put a lot of taxi drivers out of business, they would end up on the dole, i cant see the government doing anything that might increase the number of people claiming welfare.

You're not taking into account that if there was a night bus system, more people would also use the buses in the evening, therefore generating extra revenue. At the moment if you work from say 5pm to midnight in a bar, restaurant, supermarket etc in Dublin you are left with no option but to drive. IMO it's ridiculous that we are talking about digging up and reconfiguring the city centre streets (again!) to encourage public transport usage when the introduction of a basic night bus system could make such a big difference.

I think that an Edinburgh-style hourly service through the night along all major corridors could potentially break even financially if done properly, while also modernising and enhancing the city's night time economy.

shodge

Lifelike wrote: »

I think that an Edinburgh-style hourly service through the night along all major corridors could potentially break even financially if done properly, while also modernising and enhancing the city's night time economy.

Who will put up the money for a trial run of a few months?
NTA hold the purse strings and they dot seem to be interested.

LXFlyer

shodge wrote: »

Who will put up the money for a trial run of a few months?
NTA hold the purse strings and they dot seem to be interested.

And tell us all, how do you know that they are not interested?

Are you a party to talks between Dublin Bus and the NTA on this topic?

LXFlyer

Lifelike wrote: »

You're not taking into account that if there was a night bus system, more people would also use the buses in the evening, therefore generating extra revenue. At the moment if you work from say 5pm to midnight in a bar, restaurant, supermarket etc in Dublin you are left with no option but to drive. IMO it's ridiculous that we are talking about digging up and reconfiguring the city centre streets (again!) to encourage public transport usage when the introduction of a basic night bus system could make such a big difference.

I think that an Edinburgh-style hourly service through the night along all major corridors could potentially break even financially if done properly, while also modernising and enhancing the city's night time economy.

The existing bus service does not break even, so I don't see how a night bus service on normal bus routes will either.

Public transport needs a subsidy to fund it and the challenge now is to find the money to do just that for a night service on key routes. I certainly would think that it will happen, but not until the funding issue is resolved.

shodge

lxflyer wrote: »

And tell us all, how do you know that they are not interested?

Where are the plans for it?
No need to be secret, they hold the power to grant licences, so why not tell us the tax paying public what are the short and long term plans?
Unless of course they are clueless and making it up as they go along.

LXFlyer

shodge wrote: »

Where are the plans for it?
No need to be secret, they hold the power to grant licences, so why not tell us the tax paying public what are the short and long term plans?
Unless of course they are clueless and making it up as they go along.

Well before plans go public, generally funding has to be found for them, and agreement reached between the NTA and operating companies, otherwise everyone ends up with egg potentially on their face.

Let's wait and see what happens.

But I wouldn't be ruling anything out at the moment.

newacc2015

mhge wrote: »

In cities where night transport is standard service, with standard fares, they are full all week long because people can rely on them.
Here if you work shifts or start early on a weekend you can only drive. Public transport does nor recognise you as a customer.

Part of the problem is Irish Licensing laws. Have you ever been in a German or Czech nightclub? Go before 1am and you have the place to yourself. But by 3am the place is finally filling up. At 3am Irish nightclubs are closed, but they are only starting elsewhere in Europe, as thats when bars are closing.

Dublin wouldnt be such a **** show, if nightclubs could close when they want. There was zero anti-social issues with nightclubs in Munich, when I lived there. People slowly came and left throughout the night. It wasnt like Dublin, where all the streets suddenly fill up with a few thousand people at 3am, as clubs have to close

In Munich people are still drinking and partying at clubs at 7am. I think will eventually have to be introduced here soon. The underground rave scene is massive in Dublin. They are unsafe warehouses/car parks or offices. They are a stardust 2.0 waiting to happen

shodge

lxflyer wrote: »

Well before plans go public, generally funding has to be found for them, and agreement reached between the NTA and operating companies, otherwise everyone ends up with egg potentially on their face.

Let's wait and see what happens.

But I wouldn't be ruling anything out at the moment.

Never mind egg on their face, they aint covering themselves with glory at the moment and the public continue to suffer because they wont act.
This is just making excuses for their failure improve the situation.
Take the LUSA works traffic chaos, the NTA and Dublin Council have been give a golden opportunity to change bus routes, re-route traffic, make new bus lanes, cycle paths, make pedestrian zones, basically do what ever they want while the LUAS works are creating traffic chaos, and what have they done?
Extent the bus gate to 12 hours, about 2 months late, a few minor route changes, they had years to get plans made and thats the all thats came up with.
The summer months when traffic is lightest is coming to a end and its only going to get worse when the schools reopen, how can anyone defend the actions of the NTA and Dublin Council?

Carawaystick

lxflyer wrote: »

Well before plans go public, generally funding has to be found for them, and agreement reached between the NTA and operating companies, otherwise everyone ends up with egg potentially on their face.

Let's wait and see what happens.

But I wouldn't be ruling anything out at the moment.

The same people came out with plans to privatize routes ages ago. If they had plans to run bus services after 11:30, then, if they were competent, they would announce that.

shodge

Carawaystick wrote: »

The same people came out with plans to privatize routes ages ago. If they had plans to run bus services after 11:30, then, if they were competent, they would announce that.

You have hit the nail on the head, the people running the show have no plan, they stumble form one fiasco to the next, making it up as they go along.