Grade Shaming

Robsweezie

So Cambridge students have petitioned against the public posting of their exam results, concerned about a culture of ''grade shaming''
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/education/article4446902.ece

This guy did a piece in response, basically a ''tough sh!t, thats life, we're raising a generation of pussies'' attitude. He's not all wrong in what he says, there will be a lot more testing times to come in a person's life than grades on a page. And you're gonna need a thicker skin.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/05/21/please-let-s-get-real-about-grade-shaming.html

with the leaving cert results due out this week, this topic crossed my mind. I did a quick search of the ''shaming'' phenomenon and combined it with the subject of academic grades, and yes, we even have a ''shaming'' for that too. I have to agree with the points made about shaming becoming so widespread it's ridiculous and everyone waiting to be offended.

But I also would feel for the more vulnerable students taking the whole thing to heart and getting seriously jeered and even suicidal over it. It does encourage a sense of undesirable competition where smugness is prevalent. But.....failure and rejection can be character building in some cases, motivating you to do better on your next effort. But to be honest, I certainly wouldn't like my results to be public knowledge if they were sh!t.

Is it necessary to do this? Would you like it introduced here for our exams?

LDN_Irish

Stung by bee? Why not stung by A?

MadsL

Why are exam results a matter of public interest? Surely they can be published by candidate number only?

pmasterson95

Ah now you cant expect a thick skin in this millenials. Its all about being sensitive & delicate little souls having a whinge until bandwagon hunters leap on and start a ruckus to get help from gulible morons.

The Backwards Man

It's handy if you're like me and actually forgot what degree you got (shows how much I used it ) Checked up online and there it was, there.

jimboblep

Simple solution, work harder.
If it is case you work hard and still get poor results then you simply were not good enough to be there.
The world needs ditch diggers.

Ave Sodalis

I think there's a difference between being overly sensitive about grades and grade shaming. There's far too much pressure on students to perform well and there's too much irrelevant crap associated with getting good grades. Many students are under the illusion that getting bad grades means you're stupid but high grades make you intelligent. However, there are far too many forms of intelligence which are ignored.

Basically, there's too much stigma attached to getting bad grades which is excessive in comparison to what bad grades actually mean.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Christ on an actual bike.

It's completely unnecessary to name names. If you want grades published, then publish them by exam number. Someone who's not doing well might decide to opt out than risk public humiliation rather than give it a harder shot. There's just no need for it.

Pherekydes

Nobody's publishing my LC results online! :mad:

Guy:Incognito

Pherekydes wrote: »

Nobody's publishing my LC results online! :mad:

Looks like you dodged a bullet so.

The people you hand paper to to dry their hands probably have an idea anyway.

Pherekydes

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Looks like you dodged a bullet so.

The people you hand paper to to dry their hands probably have an idea anyway.

We use cloth towels, like every other house.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

Candie wrote: »

It's completely unnecessary to name names. If you want grades published, then publish them by exam number. Someone who's not doing well might decide to opt out than risk public humiliation rather than give it a harder shot. There's just no need for it.

I kind of agree, but I can really see the other side too. At some point in these students' lives (at a great many points, in fact) their work and capability is going to be assessed in comparison to other people's. Sometimes they will be measured and found wanting, and that's not 'shaming', that's a part of life that can be difficult to deal with but will have to be dealt with. For people of my generation, that comparison was routine from our school days and was no big deal by the time we got to college (one of my departments posted named grade lists, AFAIR). Far better to get the hell used to it in a relatively consequence-free environment like college than get into a competitive workplace (which presumably is the destination in mind for many students at a college of Cambridge's calibre) and be #triggered and have a meltdown when it's pointed out your work isn't as good as Bob's, so Bob's getting the bonus.

Robsweezie

Pherekydes wrote: »

We use cloth towels, like every other house.

I think he's joking about you being a lowly public toilet assistant because you have failed/ will fail exams :0

conorh91

That reminds me, the leaving cert results are out this week aren't they?

Posting university exam results publicly is is one thing, a bit of internal competition is good for you.

However, I am uncomfortable about the media's obsession with leaving certificate results, and the pressure it places on students who may be disappointed, or who may feel inadequate compared to their peers, even in cases where they have been awarded sufficient points for whatever it is they want to study at third level. Just leave them alone.

darkpagandeath

If only people did not hand out C.V's with this information splashed all over them like confetti or put this up on recruitment websites.... Jesus.

Pherekydes

Robsweezie wrote: »

I think he's joking about you being a lowly public toilet assistant because you have failed/ will fail exams :0

I'm even more baffled now. What exams have I failed?

Jumping to conclusions...

Precious flower

I remember when my brother gradated years ago they included the honours (or not) that each person had received (first honours, second class honours etc.) but they dropped that recently and I think that's no harm. I really don't think grades should be shown publicly. What's the point? It's fine if your the student who has done well, but what if you haven't. I think it's just cruel and doesn't help students. Why is important that other people besides those who are close to that you tell, see your grades?

Robsweezie

Pherekydes wrote:

I'm even more baffled now. What exams have I failed?

Pherekydes wrote:

Jumping to conclusions...

Apologies it came out wrong. Guy incognito cracked a joke about you handing toilet paper to people presumably as a crappy job, as a consequence of "failing" exams. That those people have an idea of how "poorly" you did. He must've thought because you were so reluctant to have them shared publicly is because you did crap. Again, a joke. A joke about crappy results = crappy job which is absolutely not the case for everyone. Nobody's saying you failed anything for real.

rainbowtrout

So these students are going to what is considered to be one of the top universities in the world, having it on their CV will certainly open doors for them, regardless of their degree they probably won't have trouble finding work and they are whinging about lists of grades being posted?

The Randy Riverbeast

Putting results up on a notice board is a fairly stupid system. If only they put internet on computers so the students could just log in and see their results. Think of all the amazing things we'll be able to do with such technology.

Anita Blow

In TCD at least (and I'm sure all other universities/colleges in Ireland), grades are published publicly by exam number rather than name. The idea of publishing exam results is that they can be open to public scrutiny and challenge.

G_R

Anita Blow wrote: »

In TCD at least (and I'm sure all other universities/colleges in Ireland), grades are published publicly by exam number rather than name. The idea of publishing exam results is that they can be open to public scrutiny and challenge.

I know DIT is the same. It's posted either by exam or student number, depending on the lecturer.

Pherekydes

Robsweezie wrote: »

Apologies it came out wrong. Guy incognito cracked a joke about you handing toilet paper to people presumably as a crappy job, as a consequence of "failing" exams. That those people have an idea of how "poorly" you did. He must've thought because you were so reluctant to have them shared publicly is because you did crap. Again, a joke. A joke about crappy results = crappy job which is absolutely not the case for everyone. Nobody's saying you failed anything for real.

Here, have some loo roll. Go blow your nose...

:pac:

osarusan

I don't really see the point of publishing the grades by name.

Even so, i don't really see the point of protesting about it.

Most of all, I think that Daily Beast article is horrendously bad.

darkpagandeath

Precious flower wrote: »

I remember when my brother gradated years ago they included the honours (or not) that each person had received (first honours, second class honours etc.) but they dropped that recently and I think that's no harm. I really don't think grades should be shown publicly. What's the point? It's fine if your the student who has done well, but what if you haven't. I think it's just cruel and doesn't help students. Why is important that other people besides those who are close to that you tell, see your grades?

To get a job...

FrStone

Precious flower wrote: »

I remember when my brother gradated years ago they included the honours (or not) that each person had received (first honours, second class honours etc.) but they dropped that recently and I think that's no harm. I really don't think grades should be shown publicly. What's the point? It's fine if your the student who has done well, but what if you haven't. I think it's just cruel and doesn't help students. Why is important that other people besides those who are close to that you tell, see your grades?

We were doing a clean out of the attic recently, and found the booklet from my mams graduation day. They published it like that too, I thought it was fair though it just said if you were a 1.1 or 2.1 etc. It didn't exactly say who was last.

It was interesting in that out of a class of 125, there were only two 1.1 students. It really shows how bad grade inflation is, sure a 1.1 is fierce common now a days.

It creates transparency to be able to see everyone's results.

Depending on your course in UCC you can actually request to see your classes overall grade broken down by person, so that you can see where you came.

Samaris

I'd mention to the people saying pretty much 'sure, they need to get used to it' that even with adults these sorts of conversations tend to be held privately for much the reason of not shaming people. Why should teenagers be any different? Also, in the rare case where it might be public, adults are expected to have the decorum and decency to not comment on it whereas kids/teenagers...well, can be pretty cruel. Not to say ofc that adults can't be pretty douchey, but fortunately, the adults that never got past teenage bullying mentality are fairly rate overall.

One eyed Jack

It's Cambridge, not kindergarten.

Special Circumstances

Troy Thundering Stew wrote: »

and be #triggered and have a meltdown

:pac: #triggered :pac:


Grade shaming me arse, I thought special snowflakes didn't fail things anymore, only "did not succeed". Shur everyone is special and we all get medals because no one is more special than the next right?

No more of that nasty maths, you can just talk about how the maths problem makes you feel and how you would mount a tumblr campaign to smash its oppression... I mean it didn't even address you by your chosen pronoun...

conorh91

Anita Blow wrote: »

In TCD at least (and I'm sure all other universities/colleges in Ireland), grades are published publicly by exam number rather than name. The idea of publishing exam results is that they can be open to public scrutiny and challenge.

It's easy to work out who's who.

When I was a student there, some of the more competitive guys had worked out a list of student numbers with corresponding names. I guess people like to know who their competitors are.

AudreyHepburn

I can see where these students are coming from and the idea that some here seem to have that this is just about some students being overly sensitive about their grades is rubbish in my opinion.

Every year it drives me mad opening the newspaper when the LC results and seeing article after article about all the students who got straight As. Yes it's a great achievement and yes they should be proud but the reality is that it is a rare few that can achieve such a result and that just because the majority of students probably won't get all As does not mean they won't do brilliantly and get the marks they want.

And it's not necessarily a mark of intelligence either....it's easy to memorise information and regurgitate it on the day, it doesn't mean you are Einstein or that your friend achieved say Bs and Cs is not as smart as you.

I think it's unfair to put such results and achievements on a pedestal, as if they are the only results worth celebrating.

valoren

It's a tradition.

It's a tradition that I would imagine served as a motivation for students.

Knowing that your results would be publicly displayed should serve as an incentive to actually do the work you are there to do and get the First.

If the results are to be anonymous, you would still know who got a Geoff Hurst. How? They will tell you

Akrasia

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

And it's not necessarily a mark of intelligence either....it's easy to memorise information and regurgitate it on the day, it doesn't mean you are Einstein or that your friend achieved say Bs and Cs is not as smart as you.

Its easy for some people to memorise information, for others it's really hard.

I find it impossible to remember 'facts' like dates and formulae

I can't remember the birthdays of my own children. it's not like I'm not motivated to remember these dates. I was there for all of their births, and they're the same every year. It's just not how my brain works.

But I find it much easier to understand processes and how things work.

The education system is biased in favour of people who have naturally good recall memory even if they have poor problem solving or logical or reasoning skills.

In the past recall memory was very important, but now we can outsource these to the great reference library in our pocket, google.

Our education systems are anachronistic. We need to move them into the 21st century

Regarding the public posting of exam results. Most people would not be happy if their boss posted up details of their annual performance review for everyone to see...

One eyed Jack

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I can see where these students are coming from and the idea that some here seem to have that this is just about some students being overly sensitive about their grades is rubbish in my opinion.

Every year it drives me mad opening the newspaper when the LC results and seeing article after article about all the students who got straight As. Yes it's a great achievement and yes they should be proud but the reality is that it is a rare few that can achieve such a result and that just because the majority of students probably won't get all As does not mean they won't do brilliantly and get the marks they want.

That's exactly why we should celebrate their achievements, and it should make no difference to the students who as you put it won't do brilliantly but will still get the marks they want. We don't celebrate mediocrity.

And it's not necessarily a mark of intelligence either....it's easy to memorise information and regurgitate it on the day, it doesn't mean you are Einstein or that your friend achieved say Bs and Cs is not as smart as you.

It's a damn good marker of academic intelligence all the same, and if it were indeed so easy, then there's no reason why everyone isn't capable of doing the same. If someone else is only getting Bs and Cs, then that's a reflection of the effort they put in. Whether that's a reflection of their intelligence is entirely debatable.

I think it's unfair to put such results and achievements on a pedestal, as if they are the only results worth celebrating.

They are, in the context of academic achievement. I really hope we don't adopt this idea of "everyone's a winner" in academia because it takes away from those who actually are special and belittles their achievements.

I see no issue with publishing people's names and their results in public, I see a hell of a lot more wrong with allowing for those at the bottom to dictate the rules for those at the top.

Medusa22

I can't believe there is even a phrase for this, grade shaming, gah. I understand that some students might feel uncomfortable having their names posted next to their results, especially if they haven't done well and I wouldn't be thrilled about it myself. I do think it is a little oversensitive all the same, and this is coming from someone who obsessed over exam results. However, I think it would just be more convenient and avoid any complaints of ''grade shaming'' if the results are posted with the student number or exam number. This is the system that was used when I went to UCD and I had no issue with it. Of course some people might have known what my student number was but really, if they could be bothered to look up my results too, then they had nothing better to do with their time. I don't see an issue with celebrating those who received all As in the Leaving Cert either, I certainly didn't get all As but I was never aiming for that anyway and I just thought ''good for them'', well at the time I probably thought ''my god, what swotty losers, they must have had no lives'' :pac:

smash

Robsweezie wrote: »

I did a quick search of the ''shaming'' phenomenon and combined it with the subject of academic grades, and yes, we even have a ''shaming'' for that too.

Hasn't that always been the case? I've even been witness to teachers call their students stupid over their results.

Ave Sodalis

One eyed Jack wrote: »

They are, in the context of academic achievement. I really hope we don't adopt this idea of "everyone's a winner" in academia because it takes away from those who actually are special and belittles their achievements.

That's the thing though, I don't agree with the whole "everyone is a winner" thing either but I don't agree that those who achieve high grades are special. There's far more involved with regard to grades than just "oh that person was good at this subject". It's more like "oh that person got good marks therefore they must be very intelligent, but that person got bad marks therefore they must be an idiot" when there are far too many forms of intelligence. If you get high grades in school, it doesn't make you special. You can, for example, get 600 points in your Leaving but still be an idiot in terms of common sense, emotional intelligence, IQ etc. Plus, that doesn't account for what's going on on the day of the exam. You could be sick, you could have a bereavement, you could do what I did and break your writing hand two days before the exams start. Getting high marks doesn't make you special but that's the way it's interpreted by many.

Robsweezie

sup_dude wrote: »

That's the thing though, I don't agree with the whole "everyone is a winner" thing either but I don't agree that those who achieve high grades are special. There's far more involved with regard to grades than just "oh that person was good at this subject". It's more like "oh that person got good marks therefore they must be very intelligent, but that person got bad marks therefore they must be an idiot" when there are far too many forms of intelligence. If you get high grades in school, it doesn't make you special. You can, for example, get 600 points in your Leaving but still be an idiot in terms of common sense, emotional intelligence, IQ etc. Plus, that doesn't account for what's going on on the day of the exam. You could be sick, you could have a bereavement, you could do what I did and break your writing hand two days before the exams start. Getting high marks doesn't make you special but that's the way it's interpreted by many.

Yes. People often forget that. Emotional intelligence is important to have.

WildWater

As far as I am aware publishing (publicly displaying) lists of grades by student number, either with our without names, is breach of data protection legislation. Publishing these list was the norm in my university but it is no longer accepted practice due to the above.

Historically, there was also an expedience argument for doing so. It could take weeks for the institution to formally notify the student by mail. Today such justification holds no weight as, in an efficient institution, grades can be made available to each individual shortly after the results being finalised.

Akrasia

sup_dude wrote: »

That's the thing though, I don't agree with the whole "everyone is a winner" thing either but I don't agree that those who achieve high grades are special. There's far more involved with regard to grades than just "oh that person was good at this subject". It's more like "oh that person got good marks therefore they must be very intelligent, but that person got bad marks therefore they must be an idiot" when there are far too many forms of intelligence. If you get high grades in school, it doesn't make you special. You can, for example, get 600 points in your Leaving but still be an idiot in terms of common sense, emotional intelligence, IQ etc. Plus, that doesn't account for what's going on on the day of the exam. You could be sick, you could have a bereavement, you could do what I did and break your writing hand two days before the exams start. Getting high marks doesn't make you special but that's the way it's interpreted by many.

I lost my glasses 4 days before my final college exams.
I'm as blind as a naked mole rat and my optician had to get an emergency pair made up where the lenses were so thick and heavy that the glasses kept falling off my face every time I looked down

Trying to write an exam paper where you can't look down was an interesting experience.

conorh91

Akrasia wrote: »

But I find it much easier to understand processes and how things work.

The education system is biased in favour of people who have naturally good recall memory even if they have poor problem solving or logical or reasoning skills.

I think it's a overly dismissive of the LC to imply, as many do, that it doesn't reward creative thinking or reasoning ability.

A lot of the leaving cert is tactical: knowing what to exclude, what to study, and how to study it so that you beat the next guy, requires very strategic thinking.

Within the individual disciplines, whilst examiners may reward regurgitation to a more or lesser extent, some subjects like honours maths, the physical sciences, and even languages, require a keen reasoning ability and practical aptitude. You do not get an A1 by recalling facts alone.

Anyway, people are sometimes too hard on recalling facts. Some careers, like lawyers, doctors, and managers, are heavily reliant on the ability to quickly absorb and recall facts, as well as the ability to understand systematic processes. It's not a case of needing one skillset and not the other.

Akrasia

conorh91 wrote: »

I think it's a overly dismissive of the LC to imply, as many do, that it doesn't reward creative thinking or reasoning ability.

A lot of the leaving cert is tactical: knowing what to exclude, what to study, and how to study it so that you beat the next guy, requires very strategic thinking.

Within the individual disciplines, whilst examiners may reward regurgitation to a more or lesser extent, some subjects like honours maths, the physical sciences, and even languages, require a keen reasoning ability and practical aptitude. You do not get an A1 by recalling facts alone.

Anyway, people are sometimes too hard on recalling facts. Some careers, like lawyers, doctors, and managers, are heavily reliant on the ability to quickly absorb and recall facts, as well as the ability to understand systematic processes. It's not a case of needing one skillset and not the other.

I don't mean to be dismissive of the LC. The kids who do well put in an enormous amount of work and deserve the praise they get. Even the most privileged child still needs to put in hundreds of hours of disciplined hard work to get the best results under the most stressful conditions imaginable.

One eyed Jack

sup_dude wrote: »

That's the thing though, I don't agree with the whole "everyone is a winner" thing either but I don't agree that those who achieve high grades are special. There's far more involved with regard to grades than just "oh that person was good at this subject". It's more like "oh that person got good marks therefore they must be very intelligent, but that person got bad marks therefore they must be an idiot" when there are far too many forms of intelligence.

And it's fine to say there are far too many forms of intelligence, but the only form of intelligence that matters in academia is... academic intelligence. I for example lack far more forms of intelligence than I possess, and I also lack many physical capabilities that other people have. That is just a fact. Consoling myself with the idea that I have intelligence other people don't, really isn't going to alter the facts. I'm never going to play sports at any high degree, and I'm never going to be artistic or creative. But I make the best use of what I have got rather than piss and moan because I haven't got what someone else has. There's nothing to stop me aspiring to their level if that's what I really want to do, but they shouldn't be told keep quiet about their achievements because little Jack is very sensitive about the fact that he can't play football for shyte! :pac:

If you get high grades in school, it doesn't make you special. You can, for example, get 600 points in your Leaving but still be an idiot in terms of common sense, emotional intelligence, IQ etc.

Yes you can, I should know :pac: Lucky for me that day they were testing academic intelligence and not social, emotional nor kinetic intelligence. There are other arenas in which people who possess those forms of intelligence will excel. The old adage of "who you know, not what you know" seems somewhat of a truism when you account for the fact that people who excel in sports tend to look after their own too. If you aren't academically strong, there's no reason for that to put the skids on your career, and vice versa when it comes to being shyte at sports - no reason for that to put the skids on your career.

Plus, that doesn't account for what's going on on the day of the exam. You could be sick, you could have a bereavement, you could do what I did and break your writing hand two days before the exams start. Getting high marks doesn't make you special but that's the way it's interpreted by many.

Oh come on now, those are very subjective examples. Apart from breaking your wrists, those other examples are things that are going to crop up all throughout your life, and we shouldn't be making excuses like that for people who perform below an expected standard. Exemplary achievements in ANY field does make that person stand out, and does make them special, and that's exactly why their achievements are interpreted that way by many.

Thankfully, it's only a minority who seem to want to cosset, protect and smother underachievers in a comfort blanket of entitlement delusion rather than encourage and motivate them to aspire to do better.

Ave Sodalis

One eyed Jack wrote: »

And it's fine to say there are far too many forms of intelligence, but the only form of intelligence that matters in academia is... academic intelligence.

But that's exactly my point. Many, if not majority of people don't think it's just academic intelligence.

DarkyHughes

I don't care how some stranger did in their exams.

pickarooney

They can always console themselves with the wise words of the Great Shamen - E's are good.

Medusa22

sup_dude wrote: »

That's the thing though, I don't agree with the whole "everyone is a winner" thing either but I don't agree that those who achieve high grades are special. There's far more involved with regard to grades than just "oh that person was good at this subject". It's more like "oh that person got good marks therefore they must be very intelligent, but that person got bad marks therefore they must be an idiot" when there are far too many forms of intelligence. If you get high grades in school, it doesn't make you special. You can, for example, get 600 points in your Leaving but still be an idiot in terms of common sense, emotional intelligence, IQ etc. Plus, that doesn't account for what's going on on the day of the exam. You could be sick, you could have a bereavement, you could do what I did and break your writing hand two days before the exams start. Getting high marks doesn't make you special but that's the way it's interpreted by many.

Well, with many exams, especially nowadays with continuous assessment in college, the overall grade is often taken into consideration, rather than just one test. Though I know that isn't always the case, and not for the LC. That being said though, I sat my final exam for my degree with a fever of over 38 degrees and I still managed to get an A. Maybe the examiner just liked my feverish ramblings though

One eyed Jack

sup_dude wrote: »

But that's exactly my point. Many, if not majority of people don't think it's just academic intelligence.

If people are still ashamed of being called idiots at secondary or third level education, then chances are they're not registering too high on the social or emotional intelligence IQ scale either tbh.

That's why if this were a kindergarten, such sentiments might be understandable, but it's Cambridge for jesus sake, one of the top academic institutions in the world, where students are now talking about being excused from having their underwhelming underachievement under scrutiny.

How the hell did they get into Cambridge?

Ave Sodalis

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If people are still ashamed of being called idiots at secondary or third level education, then chances are they're not registering too high on the social or emotional intelligence IQ scale either tbh.

That's why if this were a kindergarten, such sentiments might be understandable, but it's Cambridge for jesus sake, one of the top academic institutions in the world, where students are now talking about being excused from having their underwhelming underachievement under scrutiny.

How the hell did they get into Cambridge?

No, you're still not really getting what I'm saying. I'm saying what should only be measuring academic achievement is being used as a universal measurement of intelligence when it shouldn't be, which is probably why people have issue with their grades being so public.

Special Circumstances

pickarooney wrote: »

They can always console themselves with the wise words of the Great Shamen - E's are good.

Very much maligned and misunderstood:pac: