Crew taken off plane-Oslo

Happyman42

If confirmed, is that a career ender?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0808/719992-air-crew/

mr.anonymous

It's illegal so I'd think it is an end to their career.

SpaceTime

Hopefully! It's very worrying that people doing that job could be so irresponsible.

There's no room for that kind of thing in aviation or any kind of industry where your ability to pilot or drive is critical to everyone else's lives.

Even driving a bus, you'd be facing loss of public service licence for that in most countries, and rightly so.

Happyman42

Was just wondering, what with employment legislation, rights etc if it was automatic or if you could serve a ban then return.

SpaceTime

You can have conditions of employment that include something like that you've never been convicted of a particular list of crimes, which could include this.

Illegal discrimination usually means based on personal characteristics : gender, sexual orientation, race, nationality, civil/marital status, kids/no kids, religion, no religion etc etc etc

You can normally refuse to hire someone or fire then for behaviour or past performance issues or criminal records.

I can't see how it wouldn't be possible to exclude someone like that from passenger carrying aviation permanently.

Jobs that are safety critical like flying an aircraft and lots of other roles can have a requirement to prove you're safe and competent to do that as there are high risks involved and other people's lives.

I'm not sure if an airline would take someone on again if they could prove they changed their behaviour?

It would seem to me this is a trust, judgement & responsibly issue.

eatmyshorts

"Pilot and crew pulled off Oslo plane after failing breath test"...

Bad choice of wording! Sounds like the plane got a happy ending...

smurfjed

So what happens if the crew were following their company procedures regarding alcohol consumption? Do you think that it should still be career ending?

We have a rehabilitation program for crew, they will lose their licenses for a year, but will get it back and their job if they successfully complete the program.

You might find this interesting....

http://www.lyleprouse.com/

sparrowcar

I won't divulge any details but years ago I was involved in a shambolic episode whereby after waiting for the Gardai to turn up with a breathalizer they arrived with a road traffic breathalyser which only measured if you were over the drink driving limit (pass or fail) and not if you had any levels of achohol in your system.

In my opinion the pilot that day should not have flown but my hands were tied after the Gardai left. It's good to see things have come on since then.

smurfjed

that day should not have flown but my hands were tied after the Gardai left

But the Gardai considered him fit to drive a car?

sparrowcar

smurfjed wrote: »

But the Gardai considered him fit to drive a car?

He passed the drink driving breath test so they left and said they could not do anything more.

Preset No.3

Happyman42 wrote: »

If confirmed, is that a career ender?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0808/719992-air-crew/

The only job he'll get will be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog sh1t out of Hong Kong!

smurfjed

Surely if the Gardai thought that the guy had an issue, they would have taken him to Santry and called for a doctor to assess the actual alcohol level. Why didn't they do that?

sparrowcar

smurfjed wrote: »

Surely if the Gardai thought that the guy had an issue, they would have taken him to Santry and called for a doctor to assess the actual alcohol level. Why didn't they do that?

It's summarised in the opening line of my original post "shambolic episode"

The airport police called the Gardai and the first car turned up 1 hour later without a breath test kit. A second car from Santry arrived another 45 mins later with a breath kit. Once the test was done they jumped into the car and drove off.

There are additional details about the Gardai that day but it would drag this post down a road I'm not intending to go down.

smurfjed

I really don't care about the actual case that you were involved in as it doesn't concern me, however I am extremely curious as to who actually has the authority to remove me from an aircraft and hold me pending the arrival of the Gardai.

sparrowcar

smurfjed wrote: »

I really don't care about the actual case that you were involved in as it doesn't concern me, however I am extremely curious as to who actually has the authority to remove me from an aircraft and hold me pending the arrival of the Gardai.

Ok I understand where you are coming from now. I thought you were trying to sniff out my story for which you would have hit a dead end as it's completely true unfortunately

In my circumstance i had agreed with the station manager for the airline that we would have the captain breath tested. At no time was he detained other than the fact he was far from home on his own aircraft so I presume he wasn't going anywhere. To answer your question I would be fairly sure that the only people that could detain you other than the Gardai would be airport police.

Having said that if any number of the ground services decide not to assist you until the situation is resolved then you aren't really going anywhere in your aircraft. Nothing stopping you walking out of the airport and going home though!

smurfjed

would be airport police

Actually I don't think that they do have that right, thats why I'm curious as to who actually has the right.

Having said that if any number of the ground services decide not to assist you

Wow, have you ever seen a FBO brave enough to do that?

We operate under FAR's, unfortunately its very hard to convince crew that these regulations wont protect them in Europe, but at the same time it's extremely hard to know the rules for every country that you fly to!

fits

Are pilots breathalysed regularly? (or at all?)

smurfjed

Yep we are as per US FAR 120, which defines the conditions that we can be tested under and the responsibility of the company if we fail.

I'm sure that similar programs exist for European operators.

sparrowcar

smurfjed wrote: »

Actually I don't think that they do have that right, thats why I'm curious as to who actually has the right.

Wow, have you ever seen a FBO brave enough to do that?

We operate under FAR's, unfortunately its very hard to convince crew that these regulations wont protect them in Europe, but at the same time it's extremely hard to know the rules for every country that you fly to!

Airport police in Ireland can detain but not arrest so yes they do have the right.

As far as an FBO being brave enough, it's not about being brave. We follow company procedures and expect our customers to do the same. I have in the past instructed persons to walk away from an aircraft generally due to a flight crew member not respecting our own policies.
It's extremely rare though.

fits

Who are 'we'? Pilots operating transatlantic?

I fly a lot. My colleagues fly a lot with Air baltic, so not particularly pleased to hear there are folks flying with alcohol in them.

Bayberry

sparrowcar wrote: »

I won't divulge any details but years ago I was involved in a shambolic episode whereby after waiting for the Gardai to turn up with a breathalizer they arrived with a road traffic breathalyser which only measured if you were over the drink driving limit (pass or fail) and not if you had any levels of achohol in your system.

In my opinion the pilot that day should not have flown but my hands were tied after the Gardai left. It's good to see things have come on since then.

So you're saying that it's the job of the Gardaí in Santry to breathalyze pilots and other flight crew that might be suspected of being under the influence?

Is there a law or statutory order that specifies the limits that apply to pilots? I'd be far more concerned that an Airport wouldn't have both the the equipment, personnel and legal authority to deal with the situation of an inebriated pilot, than the idea that the local Garda station didn't have specialist equipment that would only be used at the airport in the first place.

sparrowcar

Bayberry wrote: »

So you're saying that it's the job of the Gardaí in Santry to breathalyze pilots and other flight crew that might be suspected of being under the influence?

Is there a law or statutory order that specifies the limits that apply to pilots? I'd be far more concerned that an Airport wouldn't have both the the equipment, personnel and legal authority to deal with the situation of an inebriated pilot, than the idea that the local Garda station didn't have specialist equipment that would only be used at the airport in the first place.

No I didn't say that anywhere. I wouldn't know who's job it is.
I can't help you with your questions, it's not my area of expertise.

billie1b

smurfjed wrote: »

I really don't care about the actual case that you were involved in as it doesn't concern me, however I am extremely curious as to who actually has the authority to remove me from an aircraft and hold me pending the arrival of the Gardai.

A member of Ground ops, A member of Station Contro, Dispatcher, a Citizen, Airport Police, any number of people

smurfjed

Billie1b, based on what authority?

It's not in the airport bylaws, with the exception that one cannot be intoxicated, but nothing about the right of holding a crew member and preventing him from doing his duty.

Are the bylaws really 60 years old ?

GIVEN under my Official Seal, this 30th day of April, 1953.

smurfjed

The Railways and Transport Safety Act this year set an alcohol limit for aircrews at 20 milligrams in 100 millilitres of blood - 25 per cent of the drink-drive limit. No date has been set for the limit's official introduction.

I don't know the limit for ireland.

billie1b

smurfjed wrote: »

Billie1b, based on what authority?

It's not in the airport bylaws, with the exception that one cannot be intoxicated, but nothing about the right of holding a crew member and preventing him from doing his duty.

Are the bylaws really 60 years old ?

If you are deemed a threat/danger to yourself, anybody else or public/private property you can be detained by any member of the public until Gardaí arrive to detain/arrest you, if you refuse to co-operate you can be detained by reasonable force.

fr336

smurfjed wrote: »

I really don't care about the actual case that you were involved in as it doesn't concern me, however I am extremely curious as to who actually has the authority to remove me from an aircraft and hold me pending the arrival of the Gardai.

Jesus I hope SOMEBODY would if they suspected you were over the limits and about to fly ME somewhere. Some God complex some of you guys have here, guessing you're members of Pprune too.

Negative_G

fr336 wrote: »

Jesus I hope SOMEBODY would if they suspected you were over the limits and about to fly ME somewhere. Some God complex some of you guys have here, guessing you're members of Pprune too.

How does one asking for specifics result in someone having a 'god complex'?

eatmyshorts

The Airport Police only have powers of detention (not arrest) within the defined geographical limits of DAA property.
Basically, they're nothing more than glorified bouncers.
Anytime I've had a reason to ask for security to meet the aircraft, I specifically ask for the Gardai, and not Airport Police.

eatmyshorts

fr336 wrote: »

Jesus I hope SOMEBODY would if they suspected you were over the limits and about to fly ME somewhere. Some God complex some of you guys have here, guessing you're members of Pprune too.

It's not a "God complex" at all.
We work in a very rule and regulation bound profession. If someone is going to start accusing me of something, it's only right that I request to know under what regulation am I being accused.

sdanseo

eatmyshorts wrote: »

The Airport Police only have powers of detention (not arrest) within the defined geographical limits of DAA property.
Basically, they're nothing more than glorified bouncers.
Anytime I've had a reason to ask for security to meet the aircraft, I specifically ask for the Gardai, and not Airport Police.

That's a little unfair. Detention in that context is effective arrest, as they have to hand a detainee over to AGS "as soon as practicable". At that stage, they are arrested.

Airport Police serve a purpose and the more everyday tasks they can perform relieves AGS of the strain of having to base very significant numbers of members at the Airport.

In the context of the thread as I'm straying off topic, AP should have the power to breath test pilots or crew. Air safety is far too critical.

eatmyshorts

sdanseo wrote: »

Airport Police serve a purpose and the more everyday tasks they can perform relieves AGS of the strain of having to base very significant numbers of members at the Airport.

In the context of the thread as I'm straying off topic, AP should have the power to breath test pilots or crew. Air safety is far too critical.

I wouldn't put the Airport Police in charge of a piss up.

A former colleague of mine had a nasty run in with them. They chased him, in cars, for an alleged traffic offence. This occurred outside the airport limits. They physically blocked his car with theirs at the airport roundabout. He refused to get out of his vehicle, even though the Airport Police "officers" we're banging in his window and shouting to get out.
What the AP didn't realise was that my colleague was an ex-Gard, and knew exactly what powers the AP had. He simply called his ex colleagues in Santry and awaited their arrival, who basically told the AP to leave as they had no powers above any ordinary citizen when not on DAA property.

Out of sheer petty childish vindictiveness, the Airport Police then proceeded to revoke my colleagues airport security pass.
A few phonecalls and a threat of legal action soon had them scurrying back under their rocks.

So I stand by my claim of glorified bouncers.

eatmyshorts

fr336 wrote: »

. Some God complex some of you guys have here, guessing you're members of Pprune too.

Strange accusation from someone who once started a thread called "Do you look down on people?" and posted....

" I do subconciously sometimes and mainly feel quite bad about those ones. However when I'm in a right mood and everything is amplified I feel like a king compared to some of the utter pointless morons I encounter"


I will agree with you on one thing...i encounter a lot of utter pointless morons..

smurfjed

Jesus I hope SOMEBODY would if they suspected you were over the limits and about to fly ME somewhere. Some God complex some of you guys have here, guessing you're members of Pprune too.

Wow is that chip on one shoulder or both?

One thing that i have learnt in aviation is that we never stop learning, and if we cant ask the questions then how are we supposed to get the answers!

fits

Is anyone going to answer my question about pilots being breathalysed? ( in Europe)

eatmyshorts

fits wrote: »

Are pilots breathalysed regularly? (or at all?)

Breathalysing protocol will vary between companies. There is no law stipulating testing requirements.
At mine, we are subject to random drug & alcohol testing both at home base and at outstations.
Certain jurisdictions may also implement D&A tests on crews operating through their airports. I know Amsterdam used to do this.
If someone, eg groundstaff, security staff, another crew member etc, raises a suspicion, then testing may be done because of that.

As far as I know, Russian regulations require a breath test for all crew prior to starting every duty.

eatmyshorts

Crews getting caught operating under the influence of alcohol are the stories that make the news. But it's not the major problem, fatigue is.
Flying with sleep deprivation has been shown to have a larger detrimental effect on performance than being under the influence of alcohol. And the number of crews flying around everyday suffering from sleep deprivation and fatigue is massive.

http://www.flightdutytimes.eu/?page_id=197

http://www.flightdutytimes.eu/?page_id=191

From the above study...
"The effects of sleep deprivation are very much like those of excessive alcohol consumption: Scientific studies have demonstrated that the effect of four hours of sleep deprivation on a person’s ability to perform is comparable to that of consuming 5 to 6 glasses of (american) beer. A wake period of 17 hours is equivalent to a blood alcohol level of 0.5 (Study). And a night without sleep shows the same effect as an alcohol level of 0.8 (Studie). Flying when exhausted is no less dangerous than flying drunk. So not only “don’t drink and drive”, but also “don’t fly fatigued” should be demanded!"

MoeJay

Sshhhhh, you can't mention the "f" word!

fr336

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Strange accusation from someone who once started a thread called "Do you look down on people?" and posted....

" I do subconciously sometimes and mainly feel quite bad about those ones. However when I'm in a right mood and everything is amplified I feel like a king compared to some of the utter pointless morons I encounter"


I will agree with you on one thing...i encounter a lot of utter pointless morons..

Did someone hack your account to post this? Hilarious how immature people can be once you get to the crux of them - at least I know I'm so and working on improvements.

billie1b

eatmyshorts wrote: »

I wouldn't put the Airport Police in charge of a piss up.

A former colleague of mine had a nasty run in with them. They chased him, in cars, for an alleged traffic offence. This occurred outside the airport limits. They physically blocked his car with theirs at the airport roundabout. He refused to get out of his vehicle, even though the Airport Police "officers" we're banging in his window and shouting to get out.
What the AP didn't realise was that my colleague was an ex-Gard, and knew exactly what powers the AP had. He simply called his ex colleagues in Santry and awaited their arrival, who basically told the AP to leave as they had no powers above any ordinary citizen when not on DAA property.

Out of sheer petty childish vindictiveness, the Airport Police then proceeded to revoke my colleagues airport security pass.
A few phonecalls and a threat of legal action soon had them scurrying back under their rocks.

So I stand by my claim of glorified bouncers.

Am I your friend??? Cause this exact thing happened to me too and I know a man who they chased all the way to Swords garda station one night! 90% of them are a bunch of tosspots!

Preset No.3

I am a bit surprised that a mod has not stepped into this thread yet. A lot of misinformation from people with a school boy level of life experience which is bringing down the thread an awful lot. I have no interest in extending the argument but what smurf said we never stop learning in aviation. Well we never stop learning in life.

Oasis1974

Think about it its now like driving a car. Planes can land themselves these days they could have been off there tits and no one would have been the wiser.

smurfjed

@Oasis1974,

When a computer reacts likes these two professionals, then I will trust full automation:)

cleared for immediate takeoff from Geneva's runway 05, a British Airways Airbus A320-200 registration G-EUYS performing flight BA-726 from London Heathrow,EN (UK) to Geneva (Switzerland) was on final approach to runway 05 when tower made a frantic transmission "Foxtrott Victor, hold position here" following by the instruction to BA-726 to go around due to traffic on the runway. After the BA crew had confirmed to go around, tower explained an A320 had "fortunately just departed without serious problems", called the Aer Lingus: "Are you okay?", reply by the crew: "Affirm, we had enough room to take a right around the traffic but luckily we were okay!",

eatmyshorts

fr336 wrote: »

at least I know I'm so and working on improvements.

Keep working... You've a long way to go.

Now run along back to your desk and leave the conversation to the adults.

fr336

eatmyshorts wrote: »

Keep working... You've a long way to go.

Now run along back to your desk and leave the conversation to the adults.

Thank you, my lord.

eatmyshorts

smurfjed wrote: »

@Oasis1974,

When a computer reacts likes these two professionals, then I will trust full automation:)

I wouldn't waste my time explaining things to anyone who spouts the idiotic uneducated "sure planes fly themselves" mantra.
They'll only drag you down to their Daily Star level of knowledge.

eatmyshorts

fr336 wrote: »

Thank you, my lord.

*Lord
Do try to get it right.

fr336

eatmyshorts wrote: »

*Lord
Do try to get it right.

For the record, the type of people I look down on are the types who look down on others. When they're a Royal or something, then they can come back to me about how great they are.

Anyway how do I get banned from here?

smurfjed

Most of your posts outside aviation are about anxiety and depression which you claim to suffer from, I therefore don't understand why you keep being a smart a5se in the aviation forum, is it just a case of attention seeking?

eatmyshorts

smurfjed wrote: »

Most of your posts outside aviation are about anxiety and depression which you claim to suffer from, I therefore don't understand why you keep being a smart a5se in the aviation forum, is it just a case of attention seeking?

I'd be depressed if I was him too!

Preset No.3

Ah lads come on now. No need for any of this.