Handing myself in

Scaredchick

Ok so almost 9 years ago I received a fine for non display of motor tax . The idiot I was, I didn't pay the fine and I moved house the following month and I heard nothing more about it . I was told since that because I didn't pay the fine , it would have gone to court and since I didn't turn up in court an arrest warrant was likely issued. The problem now is that I need to fill in a garda vetting form and I will need to list that address and its only a matter of time after sending it away that they come looking for me . I think to avoid the embarrassment of being arrested in front of family or friends , I will go and hand myself in but I'm terrified about what is going to happen when I do . Can anyone tell me what I can expect?

dazed+confused

I think you are over thinking this one, it's unlikely there will be a record of this. If a Garda wanted to track you down to follow up with the fine they could have easily done so.

Motoring offences will not affect your Garda vetting.

Worst case scenario there will be an outstanding overdue fine, but you will not be arrested over a non payment of tax.

Borderfox

A good friend of mine missed two of these court appearances and nothing untoward happened to him. That was a good few years ago

amen

Motoring offences will not affect your Garda vetting

Why would you think that ? Say you are looking for employment as a school bus driver and require vetting and you have 20 convictions for speeding do you not that think that the motoring offence would have some bearing on our suitability for the job ?

Little CuChulainn

It's more likely the case went ahead in your absence and a fine was issued. Unpaid fines eventually become penal warrants. A penal warrant is a warrant to lodge a person in prison for failing to pay a fine. You can go to prison or pay the amount on the warrant to get rid of it. It's possible that due to the time passed and the minor nature of the crime that the warrant is at the bottom of a pile somewhere or has been cancelled. It's also possible that the case was struck out on the day. The easiest way to find out is to ring up your local station and ask. You can also ring up the court office where you were due to appear and see if they know.

conorh91

It is very unusual for a penal warrant to be cancelled. A penal warrant is a court order, AGS don't have powers to cancel them, nor even to choose not to execute them.

Practice of course, is different.

This will almost certainly be on the Garda's radar, and you don't want it cropping up next time you apply for a passport or driver's licence, or report a burglary in your home. Just face up to it painlessly now, nobody is going to judge you. Gardai encounter far worse than this on a daily basis. It's a minor issue but it should be dealt with.

It can be handled by paying the fine; you won't necessarily need to go to court. A Garda from the relevant station should be able to sort it out for you.

Scaredchick

since then I have been before the court for a divorce and I have gotten a passport and driver licence but this is worrying me now becouse of the garda vetting , it is sure to be on the PULSE system if there was a penal warrent. If a penal warrant is not executed within a certain amount of time , will it then become a bench warrant? Is there an option to pay the fine still ?

Hunter Mahan

Scaredchick wrote: »

since then I have been before the court for a divorce and I have gotten a passport and driver licence but this is worrying me now becouse of the garda vetting , it is sure to be on the PULSE system if there was a penal warrent. If a penal warrant is not executed within a certain amount of time , will it then become a bench warrant? Is there an option to pay the fine still ?

It wont become a bench warrant and yes you can still pay whatever amount the penal warrant is for. If it still exists.

If I were you I'd send in the Garda Vetting and have a chat with your local Garda, they will sort it out for you.

If you have a few quid spare, the sooner the better.

Knock Off Nigel

if it comes up just tell them you never recieved any letter in post regarding the matter 9 years ago and if you had you would have paid the fine.

salamanca22

Knock Off Nigel wrote: »

if it comes up just tell them you never recieved any letter in post regarding the matter 9 years ago and if you had you would have paid the fine.

Or he could not lie to the law and do the grown up thing and fix it properly. It's not a huge deal and easily sorted.

conorh91

Scaredchick wrote: »

since then I have been before the court for a divorce and I have gotten a passport and driver licence but this is worrying me now becouse of the garda vetting , it is sure to be on the PULSE system if there was a penal warrent.

Tbh you are better asking Gardai about this than legal professionals; apart from seeing photocopies of pulse records, most of us probably don't understand the procedural details.

All that is certain in law is that penal warrants don't have an expiry date, and Gardai cannot lawfully refuse to execute them or retire them. If you want to put this behind you, you'll have to engage with the Gardai, but it probably won't involve a court appearance.

I feel bad for people in your position because it is apparent from your reaction that you are not usually in trouble. But really, this is not a big deal unless you keep ignoring it.

Little CuChulainn

Penal warrants are only live for six months. They must then be reissued or cancelled by the courts.

fergus1001

You never received a letter if you were hauled in front of the judge it would be struck out

And many fines are never issued anyways so you never know worrying over nothing !

conorh91

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Penal warrants are only live for six months. They must then be reissued or cancelled by the courts.

Sorry, what i should have said is that there is no ultimate expiry. A stale warrant will usually simply be renewed on request. In fact, given that it is an offence to willfully fail to execute such a warrant, it is a mystery to me how a Garda could fail to make such an application.

A serious legislative/ judicial overhaul needs to happen regarding warrants. At the moment, you have a situation where there are thousands of warrants outstanding or stale, with no consequences. Since there is no legal impediment to renewing a warrant forever, this creates an unacceptable 'sword of Damocles' situation which can be abused.

Nomis21

i never showed up for a speeding.

got garda vetting twice since then no prob

Little CuChulainn

conorh91 wrote: »

Sorry, what i should have said is that there is no ultimate expiry. A stale warrant will usually simply be renewed on request. In fact, given that it is an offence to willfully fail to execute such a warrant, it is a mystery to me how a Garda could fail to make such an application.

Because only one judge has a tendency to renew them unless the person is before the court.

conorh91

OK i'm not getting into a petty exchange on statistics that do not even exist.

There is no lawful constraint on the extent to which penal warrants can be renewed. This has been well-settled in law.

I am familiar with warrants having been renewed years after their expiry... if you don't believe this is happening, I ask you how any of the aforesaid case law could have been developed.

Thousands of warrants are stale or not executed. If there were a clear legislative constraint on renewing warrants under any circumstances, it would force a more timely and effective execution of these orders.

Such a legislative measure would also correct the situation where a person can have a warrant hanging over their heads for years, such as in the case of the OP.

This is not an acceptable regime for anybody, including members of the public who want to see proper enforcement of warrants, and it also affords powers to AGS and the courts that are far too arbitrary. The current regime is open to abuse.

Little CuChulainn

conorh91 wrote: »

OK i'm not getting into a petty exchange on statistics that do not even exist.

There is no lawful constraint on the extent to which penal warrants can be renewed. This has been well-settled in law.

I am familiar with warrants having been renewed years after their expiry... if you don't believe this is happening, I ask you how any of the aforesaid case law could have been developed.

Thousands of warrants are stale or not executed. If there were a clear legislative constraint on renewing warrants under any circumstances, it would force a more timely and effective execution of these orders.

Such a legislative measure would also correct the situation where a person can have a warrant hanging over their heads for years, such as in the case of the OP.

This is not an acceptable regime for anybody, including members of the public who want to see proper enforcement of warrants, and it also affords powers to AGS and the courts that are far too arbitrary. The current regime is open to abuse.

Your theory is right. Your understanding of practice is wrong.

jimbobjnr

if there is a bench warrant,they may and i say may arrest you, you will recieve a new court date if they dont remand you and you will be given a chance to pay your fine or if you chose not to pay you can do prison time in lieu, which will generally mean yoou will spend 10 mins in the dochas centerand your fines will be purged

conorh91

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Your theory is right. Your understanding of practice is wrong.

It is not.

No offence but you're being overly defensive about this. I'm not claiming that Gardaí usually request renewals of these warrants. In fact, it's the opposite that I am complaining about. They usually seem to let them slide altogether.

My concern is in relation to the potential for abuse, which has arisen in the past, and that is how this topic has been developed by the courts to begin with.

It hasn't been dealt with satisfactorily in my opinion, and more importantly, in the opinion of influential criminal law experts, such as Tom O'Malley, who has addressed this point on a number of occasions.

One person claiming on an internet board that abuse of this anomaly has never happened or 'would never happen' is about as bankable on their word as an online Nigerian prince. This whole issue of warrants needs to be cleared up by the Legislature, by providing some certainty on the expiry of warrants.

hullaballoo

Please do not report posts simply because lawyers are disagreeing.

If it was the case that lawyers never disagreed, there would be no need for lawyers. Apparently, everyone else would then be rich somehow and we can't be having that.

On the other hand, "I'm right, you're wrong"-type posts are not acceptable. Please reference appropriate authorities etc. for the purposes of enabling discussion, rather than killing it.

conorh91

Apologies, I was editing my post as you wrote that last bit.

Little CuChulainn

conorh91 wrote: »

It is not.

No offence but you're being overly defensive about this. I'm not claiming that Gardaí usually request renewals of these warrants. In fact, it's the opposite that I am complaining about. They usually seem to let them slide altogether.

My concern is in relation to the potential for abuse, which has arisen in the past, and that is how this topic has been developed by the courts to begin with.

It hasn't been dealt with satisfactorily in my opinion, and more importantly, in the opinion of influential criminal law experts, such as Tom O'Malley, who has addressed this point on a number of occasions.

One person claiming on an internet board that abuse of this anomaly has never happened or 'would never happen' is about as bankable on their word as an online Nigerian prince. This whole issue of warrants needs to be cleared up by the Legislature, by providing some certainty on the expiry of warrants.

What I am telling you though is that, in practice, unless the person is before the court on the day, there is only one district court judge (in Dublin anyway) who re-issues penal or committal warrants and he only does so once a month.

But even with that aside there are issues with them. Ignoring the fact that most people lodged on penal warrants are home in a day or two, making them almost completely pointless, their authority is lacking. The warrant obliges the Garda to arrest the person and lodge them but it does not oblige the prison to take them. It also does not provide a power of detention. And prisons only accept prisoners between 8am and 12pm. So what does a Garda do if he meets someone with a warrant between 12pm and 8am (a very likely scenario)?

There's no doubt that the issue needs to be adressed at all levels, Garda, prison and judiciary, but let's not ignore the issue of personal responsibility. If a person doesn't bother going to court and a fine is issued resulting in a penal warrant, there's no use that person complaining about a penal warrant standing over them down the road. It's a situation completely of their own making.

jimbobjnr

as a serving prison officer my advice is go to your local garda station, tell them the situation and get it sorted out instead of always have it hanging over you, it wont be as bad as you imagine ,it is very hard to be sent to prison in this country , you will be given a chance to pay the fine

BaronVon

By the sounds of the OP, the summons wouldn't have been served on him in the first place, as he moved house, rendering all this talk about penal warrants mute.

OP, go down to your local station and ask them to check you on the computer. If you do in fact have a live penal warrant, which is extremely unlikely 9 years later, you can make arrangements to pay the fine.

And then your Garda Vetting will come up clean!

Scaredchick

Just to update. I rang the garda station and told them my story They weren't in the slightest bit interested because of how long ago it was . I asked if it was possible that there was a penal warrant issued over not turning up for a possible court date and again They told me not to worry and just forget about it . They didn't even check their system or ask for any details. The garda said that after about 3 years that would have been wiped off their system and certainly after 9 years it will be long gone . So I was worried over nothing .

Little CuChulainn

Scaredchick wrote: »

Just to update. I rang the garda station and told them my story They weren't in the slightest bit interested because of how long ago it was . I asked if it was possible that there was a penal warrant issued over not turning up for a possible court date and again They told me not to worry and just forget about it . They didn't even check their system or ask for any details. The garda said that after about 3 years that would have been wiped off their system and certainly after 9 years it will be long gone . So I was worried over nothing .

That Garda was wrong.

mcgarrett

Scaredchick wrote: »

Ok so almost 9 years ago I received a fine for non display of motor tax . The idiot I was, I didn't pay the fine and I moved house the following month and I heard nothing more about it . I was told since that because I didn't pay the fine , it would have gone to court and since I didn't turn up in court an arrest warrant was likely issued. The problem now is that I need to fill in a garda vetting form and I will need to list that address and its only a matter of time after sending it away that they come looking for me . I think to avoid the embarrassment of being arrested in front of family or friends , I will go and hand myself in but I'm terrified about what is going to happen when I do . Can anyone tell me what I can expect?

Provided you have no criminal convictions you can expect your vetting application will come back from Thurles all clear.

There is not a District Officer in the country would have a penal warrant on his books 9 years after it was issued.
The Garda in the station was spot on it was cancelled years ago. Relax and continue to be a model citizen

ComfortKid

Little CuChulainn wrote:

That Garda was wrong.

No he wasn't!

Nothing to boast about, but I owed over 1k in separate fines dated between 06-09

I never paid anything, the guards did call to my mams a few times (presumably to send me to prison for a few hours) but I wasn't there.

I found out a few months ago that I don't owe anything and my name is clear.

The Masculinist

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

That Garda was wrong.

This post just highlights how 95% of the advice you get from boards is bad, about 5% is good. Those who have been living in Ireland long enough know that you are nearly better off chancing your arm in these situations.

sjb25

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

That Garda was wrong.

Sorry now but iv been in OPs position I had a fine for no tax about 4-5 years ago got court date I didn't go (yes I should have but was young and stupid) but anyway fast forward to now iv been garda vetted on 3 occasions for differnt things since iv got a passport and not a dicky bird about it....... So the garda must be right

Little CuChulainn

mcgarrett wrote: »

Provided you have no criminal convictions you can expect your vetting application will come back from Thurles all clear.

There is not a District Officer in the country would have a penal warrant on his books 9 years after it was issued.
The Garda in the station was spot on it was cancelled years ago. Relax and continue to be a model citizen

ComfortKid wrote: »

No he wasn't!

Nothing to boast about, but I owed over 1k in separate fines dated between 06-09

I never paid anything, the guards did call to my mams a few times (presumably to send me to prison for a few hours) but I wasn't there.

I found out a few months ago that I don't owe anything and my name is clear.

The Masculinist wrote: »

This post just highlights how 95% of the advice you get from boards is bad, about 5% is good. Those who have been living in Ireland long enough know that you are nearly better off chancing your arm in these situations.

sjb25 wrote: »

Sorry now but iv been in OPs position I had a fine for no tax about 4-5 years ago got court date I didn't go (yes I should have but was young and stupid) but anyway fast forward to now iv been garda vetted on 3 occasions for differnt things since iv got a passport and not a dicky bird about it....... So the garda must be right

Penal warrants are live for 6 months before expiring. They remain dormant until cancelled or reissued by a judge but they don't disappear. It's very rare a judge will simply cancel a warrant without good reason, and the passage of time alone is not good reason. Bench warrants stay live for 100 years. Neither simply go away or get wiped off the books.

ComfortKid

Little CuChulainn wrote:

Penal warrants are live for 6 months before expiring. They remain dormant until cancelled or reissued by a judge but they don't disappear. It's very rare a judge will simply cancel a warrant without good reason, and the passage of time alone is not good reason. Bench warrants stay live for 100 years. Neither simply go away or get wiped off the books.

Why have I been giving the all clear then even though they were looking for me for unpaid fines 6 years ago?

What it says in the books is different from what actually happens in real life.

Little CuChulainn

ComfortKid wrote: »

Why have I been giving the all clear then even though they were looking for me for unpaid fines 6 years ago?

What it says in the books is different from what actually happens in real life.

Lots of possible reasons. They might have thought you left the jurisdiction. You might have already served time. They might just not be able to find it.

sjb25

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Lots of possible reasons. They might have thought you left the jurisdiction. You might have already served time. They might just not be able to find it.

I still live at same location as I did when I got the fine some local gardai would know me and my family (in a good way) so finding me would be no problem and iv been garda vetted as I said not once but several time in the last 4-5 years since didn't show up in court and I was given the all clear and iv never ever heard anyting at all by the way iv also never served any time whatsoever for anyting

Little CuChulainn

sjb25 wrote: »

I still live at same location as I did when I got the fine some local gardai would know me and my family (in a good way) so finding me would be no problem and iv been garda vetted as I said not once but several time in the last 4-5 years since didn't show up in court and I was given the all clear and iv never ever heard anyting at all by the way iv also never served any time whatsoever for anyting

Penal warrants don't affect Garda vetting. It's done by civilians in an office in Tipperary. It'd very possible your warrant wad cancelled but it is not the norm.

conorh91

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

What I am telling you though is that, in practice, unless the person is before the court on the day, there is only one district court judge (in Dublin anyway) who re-issues penal or committal warrants and he only does so once a month.

But even with that aside there are issues with them. Ignoring the fact that most people lodged on penal warrants are home in a day or two, making them almost completely pointless, their authority is lacking. The warrant obliges the Garda to arrest the person and lodge them but it does not oblige the prison to take them. It also does not provide a power of detention. And prisons only accept prisoners between 8am and 12pm. So what does a Garda do if he meets someone with a warrant between 12pm and 8am (a very likely scenario)?

All this really amounts to is, "don't worry your head, this process probably won't be abused".

It is not appropriate for the rule of law to be exposed to arbitrary whims, particularly where personal liberty is at stake. It is not appropriate for gaps in the criminal law to be filled with vague assurances.

The point about the likely duration of a committal into prison is equally hollow. Such an argument seems dismissive of the constitutional guarantee of liberty: why don't we just give the police powers to pick people up from the streets for a few hours, without reasonable cause? What's a few hours out of their whole lives?

People should be able to go about their lives without this kind of arbitrary threat. Article 40.4.2 of the Constitution (the habeas corpus provision) views such restraints as being so sinister that a detained person has the right to have their Habeas Corpus application heard without delay, in the High Court, before any judge of their choosing, and they should not be detained for one moment longer than is necessary. That is an admirable safeguard.

Without wanting to Godwin the thread, we should bear in mind the era in which that Article was drafted, and remember that arbitrary police powers ought to be viewed, in a liberal state, with the gravest of suspicion.

hullaballoo

Further to the above, read State (Ryan) v. Lennon. Should be mandatory reading for anyone whose interest in the law is anything other than passing to study that case.

The Masculinist

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Penal warrants are live for 6 months before expiring. They remain dormant until cancelled or reissued by a judge but they don't disappear. It's very rare a judge will simply cancel a warrant without good reason, and the passage of time alone is not good reason. Bench warrants stay live for 100 years. Neither simply go away or get wiped off the books.

Delay defeats justice.

Little CuChulainn

conorh91 wrote: »

All this really amounts to is, "don't worry your head, this process probably won't be abused".

It is not appropriate for the rule of law to be exposed to arbitrary whims, particularly where personal liberty is at stake. It is not appropriate for gaps in the criminal law to be filled with vague assurances.

The point about the likely duration of a committal into prison is equally hollow. Such an argument seems dismissive of the constitutional guarantee of liberty: why don't we just give the police powers to pick people up from the streets for a few hours, without reasonable cause? What's a few hours out of their whole lives?

People should be able to go about their lives without this kind of arbitrary threat. Article 40.4.2 of the Constitution (the habeas corpus provision) views such restraints as being so sinister that a detained person has the right to have their Habeas Corpus application heard without delay, in the High Court, before any judge of their choosing, and they should not be detained for one moment longer than is necessary. That is an admirable safeguard.

Without wanting to Godwin the thread, we should bear in mind the era in which that Article was drafted, and remember that arbitrary police powers ought to be viewed, in a liberal state, with the gravest of suspicion.

Are you sure you quoted the right post? Your post appears to have no connection to what I said. Your previous post seemed equally unconnected to what I had said. I never said anything resembling "don't worry your head, this process probably won't be abused". Nor did I claim that "abuse of this anomaly has never happened or 'would never happen". I thought I've been very clear in pointing out that what does happen is not what should happen and the entire process needs to be examined.

Little CuChulainn

The Masculinist wrote: »

Delay defeats justice.

Why does everyone seem to think an explanation is an endorsement?

The Masculinist

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Why does everyone seem to think an explanation is an endorsement?

The OP came here for advice. Most people have spent the entire thread arguing over theoretical issues. The practical fact of the matter is that the OP has nothing to worry about and is better off just saying nothing and rolling with it.

Be it right or wrong, the best piece of advice to give the OP in this particular situation is as stated above.

Little CuChulainn

The Masculinist wrote: »

The OP came here for advice. Most people have spent the entire thread arguing over theoretical issues. The practical fact of the matter is that the OP has nothing to worry about and is better off just saying nothing and rolling with it.

Be it right or wrong, the best piece of advice to give the OP in this particular situation is as stated above.

I'm not arguing over theory, I'm stating exactly what the practice is. Warrants do not just disappear from your Garda record without some action being taken. Cancelled warrants are very rare. If there was a penal warrant for the op and he did not do anything with it then it is very likely still on the system.

The Masculinist

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I'm not arguing over theory, I'm stating exactly what the practice is. Warrants do not just disappear from your Garda record without some action being taken. Cancelled warrants are very rare. If there was a penal warrant for the op and he did not do anything with it then it is very likely still on the system.

You have great insight into the system. What is the probability of this warrant being executed and the OP being brought to justice?

Little CuChulainn

The Masculinist wrote: »

You have great insight into the system. What is the probability of this warrant being executed and the OP being brought to justice?

I'd imagine that it's at the bottom of a big pile somewhere in the warrant office and will remain there unless the op does something about it or the current system is changed.

The Masculinist

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I'd imagine that it's at the bottom of a big pile somewhere in the warrant office and will remain there unless the op does something about it or the current system is changed.

Grand, the OP has nothing to worry about then.

/thread.

Scaredchick

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

I'd imagine that it's at the bottom of a big pile somewhere in the warrant office and will remain there unless the op does something about it or the current system is changed.

I tried to do something about it , I rang the garda station ,told them I have a 9 year old unpaid fine . They could have checked it up , they chose not to . If they ever do decide to execute it I'm sure That will at least show that I attempted to clear up the matter

The Masculinist

Scaredchick wrote: »

I tried to do something about it , I rang the garda station ,told them I have a 9 year old unpaid fine . They could have checked it up , they chose not to . If they ever do decide to execute it I'm sure That will at least show that I attempted to clear up the matter

If the Guards weren't bothered when you called them there is no chance they will be bothered in the future. And you're right, you tried to resolve the situation which would stand to you if by the remotest possible chance this was ever pursued.

Little CuChulainn posts are just scaremongering for the sh*ts of it.

ComfortKid

The Masculinist wrote:

Little CuChulainn posts are just scaremongering for the sh*ts of it.

I wouldn't say he is scaremongering. He knows how things are supposed to work, but in reality, nothing in this country works as it's supposed to, especially the justice system.

Those of us with experience of owing fines know that generally, they are forgotten about or wiped from the system. The gaurd told me to my face that they have nothing on me, despite me owing over 1000euros in separate fines. Some for road traffic offences, some for other things.

Little CuChulainn

Scaredchick wrote: »

I tried to do something about it , I rang the garda station ,told them I have a 9 year old unpaid fine . They could have checked it up , they chose not to . If they ever do decide to execute it I'm sure That will at least show that I attempted to clear up the matter

It will. Doesn't mean they won't still execute it.

The Masculinist wrote: »

If the Guards weren't bothered when you called them there is no chance they will be bothered in the future. And you're right, you tried to resolve the situation which would stand to you if by the remotest possible chance this was ever pursued.

Little CuChulainn posts are just scaremongering for the sh*ts of it.

And your posts are nothing less than reckless legal advice.

ComfortKid wrote: »

I wouldn't say he is scaremongering. He knows how things are supposed to work, but in reality, nothing in this country works as it's supposed to, especially the justice system.

Those of us with experience of owing fines know that generally, they are forgotten about or wiped from the system. The gaurd told me to my face that they have nothing on me, despite me owing over 1000euros in separate fines. Some for road traffic offences, some for other things.

Those of us with experience executing penal warrants know that you can never rely on a fine simply disappearing.

Teyla Emmagan

Regardless of your potential, possible, minor conviction, it probably won't matter in terms of whatever you are getting Garda vetted for. They will write it on your form, and unless you are doing something car related, like teaching people how to drive, the organisation receiving it will look at your form and say 'nothing to do with what we need this girl for, we don't care'. If it's to do with working with kids, say,no-one will care.

So don't worry.