Dublin City Council proposing to relax minimum apartment standards

Qualitymark

gaius c wrote: »

Got some comparisons with similar cities handy?

http://www.apartmenttherapy.com/average-home-sizes-around-the-151738

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/how-big-is-a-house

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398714/The-incredible-shrinking-houses-British-homes-built-just-HALF-size-1920s.html

One-bedroom flat today is on average the same size as a Tube carriage

gaius c

We were actually talking about price, not size.

Exactly. Irish apartments are ridiculously expensive

Was the quote that prompted the conversation.

Qualitymark

But the name of the thread is "Dublin CC proposing to relax minimum apartment standards" - and the main standard in question is the size of one-bedroom apartments. The Council is proposing to allow one-bedroom apartments a little smaller than a Jubilee Line Tube carriage.

iguana

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

I think there is a serious demand for hotel room sized single person accommodation in the city center. Rooms that would normally fit twice into the current 1 bed standards. They can have a separate kitchenette and toilet on the inside, with a single large balcony window leading into a shared bedroom/sitting room.

I saw a lovely studio years ago. It was just one room in what I'm guessing was a regency era house but due to the high ceilings and clever design it was a fantastic living space. About 2/3s of the room, at the window end, was a livingroom and the other 1/3 was divided by a mezzanine platform. Underneath was divided into a kitchen area and bathroom, with the bathroom accessed from the wall furthest away from the kitchen space. Above it was a small office area before the bedroom space which fit a double bed with a wardrobe dividing the spaces. The headspace in the mezzanine areas was only about 6'5" so while it was low it would still have been fine for all but the very tallest of people. The decoration was modern and the layout had been very well considered. It would have been a perfect apartment for a single person.

Daith wrote: »

How much is too much? That's what the primary issue is going to be. They need to priced exactly right otherwise they're going to be left empty or have couples move in instead.

And this is the crux of the issue. I saw that place over 12 years ago and the asking rent was just shy of €900pm. That's an insane amount of money for one person and was very much aimed at couples. But lovely as the studio was, it was absolutely not suitable for two people. While the 'bedroom' felt separate enough from the rest of the studio to avoid feeling claustrophobic and to allow you to have friends over without sitting on your bed, it was still all just one room. There would have been no option to get an early night while your partner watched some tv, or have a lie-in while your other half potters about the kitchen. It would have been a rare couple that could have lived there together without regular arguments caused by tension arising from the lack of private space. It also wouldn't have had enough storage for two people.

Relaxing the rules with relations to studios will most likely lead to horrible hovels going back on the market. They will largely be rented by vulnerable people on the edges of society like addicts and mentally ill people without family support. They will be charged whatever if the maximum that will be paid through rent allowance. Nicer studios/1-beds will continue to be priced at levels that aim to attract couples. Very little will change for the majority of people.

Mrs OBumble

iguana wrote: »

Relaxing the rules with relations to studios will most likely lead to horrible hovels going back on the market. They will largely be rented by vulnerable people on the edges of society like addicts and mentally ill people without family support. They will be charged whatever if the maximum that will be paid through rent allowance.

And they be better or worse off than they are now, living in shared dormitories in homeless hostels, or on the streets?

Qualitymark

The site between Henry Street and O'Connell Street is currently suffering a feeding frenzy of bids. This would be a lovely place for some good mixed housing that would bring life back into the city centre, with an area of artisans, small businesses and shops in Moore Street and its lanes to serve it.

Current plans envisage another nasty shopping mall.

iguana

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And they be better or worse off than they are now, living in shared dormitories in homeless hostels, or on the streets?

My point was that relaxing these rules will not help the housing crisis in the ways that people are hoping. The whole housing industry and market is far too complex for that sort of simplistic measure to be anything but pissing in the ocean. But if you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of people on the lowest rungs of society being housed in slums, there's a pretty valid argument that the addicts will be worse off in those places. Enabling an addict stops them from being able to achieve recovery and leaving them to live in permanent horrible surroundings is a huge factor in their continuing to abuse their drug of choice. The reality of having nowhere to go is very, very often the catalyst for an addict to tackle their addiction.

Not that I believe the state shouldn't do something to help those people. There are numerous medical ways that addicts and the mentally ill can be helped to make real, positive changes to their lives. Instead lining the pockets of slumlords with vast amounts of state money just so these people are kept out of sight is far from the answer.

Qualitymark

iguana wrote: »

Leaving (addicts) to live in permanent horrible surroundings is a huge factor in their continuing to abuse their drug of choice.

The reality of having nowhere to go is very, very often the catalyst for an addict to tackle their addiction.

These two statements seem contradictory?

iguana

Qualitymark wrote: »

These two statements seem contradictory?

I worded that badly, I think. There is a theory that for a lot of addicts they have to reach rock bottom in order to really want to tackle their problem. On the otherhand it's also believed that living in a perpetual state of quiet misery perpetuates an addiction and makes it harder to break the cycle. So if someone is faced with eviction from his/her family home if they don't sober up and they know they will end up on the streets as a result it can be the catalyst for change. But if they know they can have a private flat and enough money in their pockets to stay fed and anaesthetised that can prevent them reaching their rock bottom. But while they mightn't reach rockbottom, they are still living an absolutely awful life, subsisting in a hovel with no possibility of a better future. It enables them just enough to feel no need to change and then traps them in a situation where they are too miserable and hopeless to ever feel there is any point in changing.

That's not to say that I advocate for the state washing their hands of these people in order to help them hit a rockbottom, that would be even more of a cop-out. The money that is spent by indefinitely enabling their misery should be used to fund proper state run medical and psychological treatment, in-patient if necessary, in order to help them recovery as fully as possible. Instead we have a situation where we may be returning to slumlords being paid by the state to hide them away, while a quasi-religious publishing company with a 5% success rate is the main help they are offered in their recovery

Idbatterim

Even eliminating the two-storey buildings and bungalows from inside the canals would help significantly.

not going to happen, not any time soon anyway. The government and councils adopt a dont rock the boat and do as little as it takes mentality. I think we would be better off looking at options that might actually be implemented, i.e. increased building heights and permit smaller units...

In terms of the units that are being built for students. Could they not have a bedroom, bathroom, living room with communal kitchen and wash / drying facilities? You could always have a microwave, small fridge and kettle in room, if needed...

this whole debate is getting too complex. Basically we need a massive amount of entry level units (Be they studio's or smaller 1 bedroom apartments) AND apartments that are family friendly (Other than better build quality, I reckon throw in another room, that can be used as a sitting room at least) They have them in every other city in the world and have been building them for years. Whats so special about us, except that we seem to do everything worse than any of our peers, appalling planning, crap transport, crap infrastructure etc?

Government and the councils, they arent fit for purpose. And it was water charges we had mass protests over LOL Not the appalling governance and "planning" that we are all victims of!

Protesting about water, when many of us are paying E600-700 a month in crap apartments in Dublin, with appalling build quality?

All of which is doing most of us out of serious money, not the pittance that the water charges are, or that they are going to bribe us with in the upcoming budget. I would prefer if they started getting serious on the SERIOUS issues

18MonthsaSlave

Idbatterim wrote: »

entry level units AND apartments that are family friendly

No, small apartments which aren't family friendly will free up thousands of units of existing shared accomodation further out from the city centre which will be turned back in to family homes.

Idbatterim

No, small apartments which aren't family friendly will free up thousands of units of existing shared accomodation further out from the city centre which will be turned back in to family homes.

yes they would, but why not allow people the option of living in an apartment in a location they prefer?

Even myself for example, I am now looking at 3/4 bed houses. I wont contemplate living with 2 others in a 3 bedroom apartment, because there is currently no separate living area other than the typical kitchen / living room / dining room... You have absolutely no space...

Qualitymark

There is such a theory, but it's now being superseded by new theories; it doesn't seem to have worked too well in Dublin, where the addicts' misery and homelessness is, strangely, failing to turn them into upright working citizens. There's an interesting piece in the conservative British magazine The Spectator suggesting that prescribing heroin may be a better solution http://health.spectator.co.uk/the-case-for-prescription-heroin/

The housing policy of Dublin in the first Fianna Fail government was to clear the tenements that had been the shame of the British Empire - crime- and disease-ridden, where multiple families crammed into single rooms - by building suburbs of spacious houses and moving the tenement-dwellers out into them - To Hell or to Kimmage, as Brendan Behan rather sarcastically put it. Mistakes were made: close community links were broken when people were housed far from their friends and relations, and the working-class grandmas who were and are the great moderating force of our society were separated from their grandchildren.

These areas were also built as great wastelands, with no planned shops and few parks or playgrounds. Maybe the country was very poor then; in comparison, nowadays we're able to afford to provide such absolutely necessary facilities when we build housing.

Icepick

gaius c wrote: »

Got some comparisons with similar cities handy?

http://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/comparison.jsp

gaius c

Icepick wrote: »

http://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/comparison.jsp

That's like saying "google it for yourself". You made the contention that Dublin rents are "not expensive compared to similar cities" so the onus is on you to back it up.

I'm interested in what you consider "similar cities".

Qualitymark

This Telegraph piece (maddeningly clickative) has a list ranging from Netherlands at £1,972 upwards http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/property/pictures/8951786/In-pictures-The-worlds-20-most-expensive-cities-to-rent-property.html?image=1. This complicated cost-of-living index http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings.jsp?title=2014-mid&region=150 has rents… Dublin doesn't do so badly, but it doesn't include things like fair rent and freedom of tenure, or the size of the flat or house.

Qualitymark

Qualitymark wrote: »

Dublin doesn't do so badly, but it doesn't include things like... the size of the flat .

A two bedroom flat for long term family living (parents and one or two kids) should be 90sqm or more. There aren't many of those in Dublin...

riclad

They should relax the rules in dublin,
re each apartment must have 1 parking space ,
make it maybe 1 space per 2 apartments .
dublin has bus,dart, luas services ,
theres no need for every single person to have a car .
Relax the rule re each apartment must have windows facing dual aspect , or make it more flexible ,each apartment design will be considered ,at the planning stage ,
is there enough windows , is there enough light coming in .
To Each unit .
people can use bikes and bus,es .
each 2bed unit should have a parking space .
I heard on the radio ,yesterday .
any apartment in dublin costs 150k plus to build even if the site costs zero euros .
An expert said contracts could be published online,
for eu builders to bid on the contract .
build 300 units on site x,
then uk or french builders would bid on them .
The councils could buy sites off nama or buy land cheap and zone it
for apartment building ,
set aside , 10 per cent for social housing .
There,s loads of empty land sites between dublin 15 and finglas .
A single person in dublin hardly needs a car ,
theres bus stops every half mile in most area,s .
OF course if the size goes down by 20 per cent ,
the selling price will not be reduced .
OF course we need new buildings inspected ,
to avoid buildings being built that are sub standard .
Why does it cost a lot less to build in the uk than ireland .
is it down to higher standards ?
or labour costs in ireland .
2000 units were built in dublin last year,
WE need 20000 units built ,for the next 5 years .
so this is causing rents to go up in dublin .

athtrasna

Riclad I love your optimism but you don't seem to grasp the reality of living in Dublin. Those car park spaces are essential, and one or more cars are vital to the majority of people living in Dublin. Not every area is served by public transport, or public transport that takes hours to get to neighbouring areas. Public transport isn't 24 hours and parts of many routes are not safe after dark. Not to mention people who need private vehicles for work, for family purposes or for long distance journeys.

I'll give you an example of my development. Property A (2 bed), 2 cars (one works shiftwork, the other works in Meath). Property B (2 bed), 2 cars (one is in sales and has clients all over Leinster, the other has to take the kids to creche/school, get to and from work, collect kids and take them to activities. Property C (3 bed), 4 cars (1 shift work, 1 work all over the city, 1 for child with medical problems needing access to hospitals and the other is a taxi). This development has 120 unallocated spaces for 81 units, and they are at 95% occupancy.

To bring it back to property, Property A has two tenants, B is a married couple, C is tenanted but one couple with a child and two singles. This is the current reality for slightly more affordable living in Dublin, house shares and not leaving rooms empty. Spare rooms are luxuries many cannot afford.

Idbatterim

Riclad is right about the parking, particularly in central Dublin... a large amount that work in silicon docks or the city centre, do not need a car. Yes this might not be the case in the suburbs. But in terms of town and where there is still quite a lot of development lads available it is the case & here they are using prime space, throwing up 5/6 storey rubbish.

There should be minimum density and I would advocate a yearly site charge or or equivalent on all developments a set amount depending on the area and price is at a certain amount per square metre, the higher the density, the less the charge would be...

It might force some of the older developments or low density rubbish to be redeveloped quicker...

Why does it cost a lot less to build in the uk than ireland .
is it down to higher standards ?
or labour costs in ireland

there is no way it is down to quality, all of the apartments I have lived in, so far, these would be deemed as "prestigious" developments, have been appalling build quality, none worse than they one I am in now! Come the first of september when the lease is up, I wont ever rent an apartment again!

The Labour costs in Ireland for tradespeople barely fell at all since the bust, this would be a part of them problems...

Qualitymark

EU builders can bid for work? In come the lads from the cheaper eastern European economies, out go the wages to boost their economies, out go the jobs for desperate Irish builders.

Ireland has a very different attitude to EU bids from France; in France, French companies always get first preference.

JupiterKid

Dublin (and the other Irish cities) needs a substantial amount of social housing units to be built as currently many households on rent allowance and the RAS (rental accommodation scheme) that should be resident in social housing are in private rented accommodation.

The housing market is very complex but interconnected - one measure introduced for one type of tenure or housing type can have unforeseen effects on the market as a whole. There needs to be a dedicated housing task force set up for Dublin as it is clear that the city has a housing crisis in the making. Increased residential densities and mixed tenure developments would be a start.

18MonthsaSlave

Who says that Government should provide all social housing?
Social Housing should be a solution to a temporary problem where for a period of time people can't provide for their own shelter not the winning lottery ticket that it is now where those who qualify and are awarded a social housing unit are then provided with shelter at a low percentage cost of their monthly income and thereafter can chose to live an idle life knowing that accomodation costs will always be pegged to the income level they choose to earn or receive through social welfare.
There are hundreds of thousands of units of former and current social housing in Ireland.
The private sector can and does deliver shelter for those who need it too.
It is up to Government to ensure that they
a) don't sell off their own housing stock
b) don't let it fall in to the hands of people who wish to become life-long social welfare recipients at the expense of the rest of society including those with a genuine more urgent pressing need for accommodation
c) ensure they receive value for money for shelter paid for by Government provided by the private sector
d) reduce the cost of provisioning shelter for people who don't want to live on handouts from the state can provide for themselves from their own earnings.

Cuddlesworth

Qualitymark wrote: »

EU builders can bid for work? In come the lads from the cheaper eastern European economies, out go the wages to boost their economies, out go the jobs for desperate Irish builders.

Ireland has a very different attitude to EU bids from France; in France, French companies always get first preference.

We had other large scale companies come into Ireland and work on Government contracts, I worked for one for a while. They left due to the large scale corruption between council staff and a small number of "developers".

Mrs OBumble

athtrasna wrote: »

Riclad I love your optimism but you don't seem to grasp the reality of living in Dublin. Those car park spaces are essential,

So how come I've met various people who grew up in Dublin and never even learned to drive, because it just wasn't necessary for them to?

athtrasna

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

So how come I've met various people who grew up in Dublin and never even learned to drive, because it just wasn't necessary for them to?

Very selective quote, I said essential for the majority, and gave examples. I don't know any Dubliners who don't drive bar one person who has a prohibitive medical condition.

Idbatterim

Very selective quote, I said essential for the majority, and gave examples. I don't know any Dubliners who don't drive bar one person who has a prohibitive medical condition.

a lot of people living down the the docklands, who work in that area or the city centre, do not drive or need to...

the_syco

Qualitymark wrote: »

I'm worried by the idea expressed by some here that the poor should be excluded into housing away from others. This kind of ghettoisation has been a disaster, for instance in the US with its 'projects'.

You referring to Finglas?

Qualitymark wrote: »

Mixed housing, with people of different incomes living in a mixed society, is a better social plan.

To a point, it works, but police should have powers to be able to tackle anti-social issues that arise from such mixed housing.

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

And they be better or worse off than they are now, living in shared dormitories in homeless hostels, or on the streets?

It's a solution (allow small dwellings) to a problem (small dwelling) that exists because of the solution.

Idbatterim wrote: »

Protesting about water, when many of us are paying E600-700 a month in crap apartments in Dublin, with appalling build quality?

Because you gotta pay the water tax?

Eric Cartman

athtrasna wrote: »

Riclad I love your optimism but you don't seem to grasp the reality of living in Dublin. Those car park spaces are essential, and one or more cars are vital to the majority of people living in Dublin.

+1 , 3 bed apartments being sold with 1 space is a nightmare too. There are a lot of couples that would have 2 cars even who a 1 bed apartment would suit , aside from the dire lack of parking.

Eric Cartman

Qualitymark wrote: »

I'm worried by the idea expressed by some here that the poor should be excluded into housing away from others. This kind of ghettoisation has been a disaster, for instance in the US with its 'projects'. Mixed housing, with people of different incomes living in a mixed society, is a better social plan.

not really , rich people will always pay to not live next to the poor, its always going to be like that, and I think people are entitled to live near people who share their values.

While id agree putting all the poor together works out badly , putting them next to 500k houses etc.. is not a good idea. Mixing affordable housing / <200k housing and social housing works. Putting social housing in desirable parts of south dublin is just a kick in the face for the tax payer and the people who had to shell out 500k+ to live in these areas.