Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

mahoney_j

Keepgrowing wrote: »

A day on the Irish Grassland summer tour this year might change your view.

I take your point about meal and silage for Feb/Mar. That's only 2 mths but you're doing it for 6 mths with your cow and system.

Not starting a cow comparison thread btw. What ever one likes

Just going to post something along those lines ,jay I've simillar cows production wise to you and for last 4 years I've started calving 01/02 and 6 week calving beteween 80/86% with latest calving date of 21/04 I milk to 20/12 and start drying off cows from 01/12 .there is no way in hell I'd milk through Xmas and janurary without a decent bonus over base .as kg pointed out this grassland walk would of been worth a visit ,wasn't there either but have read and heard lots about it and without knowing your land I'd say in comparasion to credons farm your block may be regarded as top notch .i do run tight in March/April but it's temporary and I always have a supply of bales or very high quality pit as a back up .silage is always quality over bulk ,I add straw to dry cows to slow them no hit on production ,bcs or solids .you simply keep a hi energy diet and keep dmi intakes high

Buford T. Justice XIX

Keepgrowing wrote: »

A day on the Irish Grassland summer tour this year might change your view.

I take your point about meal and silage for Feb/Mar. That's only 2 mths but you're doing it for 6 mths with your cow and system.

Not starting a cow comparison thread btw. What ever one likes

+1.

I'm farming boys ground in comparison:o

It is well worth anybodys time to visit that farm and farmer, a real eye opener for me.

Mooooo

mahoney_j wrote: »

Mooooo wrote: »

That's more or less what the 60 cow spring herd in ucd is aiming for. They have the herd made up of cows with the same ebi and production index but half would have a low milk kg and other half have a higher milk kg. I'll put up a proper post later on

What did u think of ucd ,went up with great expectations ,right up my tree as where I want to get ,left dissapointed .greenfield kk would eat it up and spit it out as regards transperancy. Info and how to run a commercial herd

Yeah, will have to see how it develops tbh.
The split calving herd of 140 cows is continuing as normal, ie for research. They have cubicles with barriers in which cows can only go to certain feed points etc and that kinda thing.
They have also put together a spring calving demonstration herd of 60 cows with the following targets; 7500 to 8000kg milk/ 625 kgms in 305 days With a 365 day calving interval and 70% 6wk in calf rate. The point being the evaluate high feasibility of milk production grazing system on a limited land bank. The way they are going about it is 1500kg meal and grass and grass silage only. Stocking rate of 3.4 on mp, 2.25 on whole farm*. They are also doing a genetic comparison within the herd with one cow group having a milk pta of +288kg (high) and the other group a milk pta of +100kg (low). Cow size is approx 620 kg.
Due to the genetic comparison they are feeding all cows the same amount of feed, as in not fty. So they are feeding according to stage in lactation as opposed to what's in front of them at the time. So from a commercial point of view that would be the first issue but in order to do that comparison that is how it needs to go. They said they will likely change after 2 years and go fty. They are recording daily with the parlour so predicted yields are fairly good and in august the high milk group had given 300kgs more milk but 1kg less ms to date however the predicted yields show the high yield group finishing 700kg milk and 23kgs solids higher in supply for the 305 days. So given the production index is the same at 72/73 the ebi pta doesn't seem that far out. They are all one herd treated the same.
On grazing due to the high meal at the beginning of lactation high opening covers they found it hard to get going grazing covers as well as they liked with weather also. Tbh until the genetic comparison is done and out the way from a grass point of view they won't be going at full tilt. They were allocating 23kgs dm for first 120days of lactation tapered back to 18.5kgs after and to a low of 16kgs for the last third. They are staying within nitrates rules so 250kgs N. The reason for the * at the overall stocking rate they give is because this included the silage ground however all they take is 2.5 cuts off it so technically it's higher. We suggested zero grazing etc to have more grass instead of silage but they acknowledged they were options as to whether or not they go that way or not I dunno. Currently the rest of that ground it goes elsewhere in the lyons estate. Also most of the slurry goes.to.silage fields on rest of lyons estate so it was suggested could they keep 60 cows worth of slurry for their block as within the rules the indices on their own "block" won't hold. Currently at 3 for both p and k. They grew 13.3 tonne last year and used 11.4. Talking of hitting 14 tonne this year with close to 12 used.
Impression was perhaps not currently managed commercially so until it goes that way a pinch of salt may be needed. A couple of different people involved aside from lads doing the physical work so may not help, in terms of the overall picture but look they are involved elsewhere too so in a uni not entirely feasable. It is mainly feed costs they will look at as other costs there are shared amongst rest of farm and given its 60 cows I guess it could be taken just farmer labour and use your own costs for everything else. They are planning on starting a website so something to keep an eye on but realise it has its constraints in terms info to be taken from it. May have missed a few things but it was a few weeks back we were there.

jaymla627

mahoney_j wrote: »

Just going to post something along those lines ,jay I've simillar cows production wise to you and for last 4 years I've started calving 01/02 and 6 week calving beteween 80/86% with latest calving date of 21/04 I milk to 20/12 and start drying off cows from 01/12 .there is no way in hell I'd milk through Xmas and janurary without a decent bonus over base .as kg pointed out this grassland walk would of been worth a visit ,wasn't there either but have read and heard lots about it and without knowing your land I'd say in comparasion to credons farm your block may be regarded as top notch .i do run tight in March/April but it's temporary and I always have a supply of bales or very high quality pit as a back up .silage is always quality over bulk ,I add straw to dry cows to slow them no hit on production ,bcs or solids .you simply keep a hi energy diet and keep dmi intakes high

I've been on walks to some of the best grass-based farmers in the country, I fully appreciate the merits of the system, it's just not the route I'm going.....
Max numbers are being reached here next year, only heifers and top 30% of cows are going to dairy ai for 4 weeks then everythings beef, going to try and run a replacement rate of less then 10% and pull back heifers reared per year to 20 , if I operate a strict spring block and have a bad season fertilitywise this simply won't work, I reckon by cutting heifer calves reared on farm by half and been able to sell 75-80 good beef calves every spring it will more then make-up for the apparen't fortune I'm leaving behind by not following the bible according to teagasc

trixi2011

Everything scanned now 7 % empty about 5 of these empty cows were incalf and have slipped . Going to cull a hand full of the empty cows and the rest will go to the bulls in the next week or 2 and be sold as summer calvers.

Mooooo

trixi2011 wrote: »

Everything scanned now 7 % empty about 5 of these empty cows were incalf and have slipped . Going to cull a hand full of the empty cows and the rest will go to the bulls in the next week or 2 and be sold as summer calvers.

Much of a market for summer calvers over there? Will you milk them on or sell pre housing?

Keepgrowing

mahoney_j wrote: »

Just going to post something along those lines ,jay I've simillar cows production wise to you and for last 4 years I've started calving 01/02 and 6 week calving beteween 80/86% with latest calving date of 21/04 I milk to 20/12 and start drying off cows from 01/12 .there is no way in hell I'd milk through Xmas and janurary without a decent bonus over base .as kg pointed out this grassland walk would of been worth a visit ,wasn't there either but have read and heard lots about it and without knowing your land I'd say in comparasion to credons farm your block may be regarded as top notch .i do run tight in March/April but it's temporary and I always have a supply of bales or very high quality pit as a back up .silage is always quality over bulk ,I add straw to dry cows to slow them no hit on production ,bcs or solids .you simply keep a hi energy diet and keep dmi intakes high

It was O Riardons farm in the morning that did it for me. Real mans ground, he's only 1 shower of rain from housing cattle any time of the year.

Keepgrowing

jaymla627 wrote: »

I've been on walks to some of the best grass-based farmers in the country, I fully appreciate the merits of the system, it's just not the route I'm going.....
Max numbers are being reached here next year, only heifers and top 30% of cows are going to dairy ai for 4 weeks then everythings beef, going to try and run a replacement rate of less then 10% and pull back heifers reared per year to 20 , if I operate a strict spring block and have a bad season fertilitywise this simply won't work, I reckon by cutting heifer calves reared on farm by half and been able to sell 75-80 good beef calves every spring it will more then make-up for the apparen't fortune I'm leaving behind by not following the bible according to teagasc

These grassland farmers that are on top of their game have pushed things so far past the Teagasc guidelines it's unreal. Be careful about throwing the baby out with the bath water.

trixi2011

Mooooo wrote: »

Much of a market for summer calvers over there? Will you milk them on or sell pre housing?

There has been a great market for them in the past but not the last year or 2 with milk prize. Alot of cows calved down to beef sires over here the last few year so talk of there being a shortage of cows next year if milk price increasees. Most of our cows are Irish which really reduces the cull value . Most of our culls would only make £200. Not sure about milking them on might dry them off with the rest and winter them on some rough ground and sell closer to calving , lads over here like cows calving in July and aug suits the arla contracts

blackdog1

Keepgrowing wrote:

I take your point about meal and silage for Feb/Mar. That's only 2 mths but you're doing it for 6 mths with your cow and system.

But your prepared for it and budgeted for it. You also have the shed space. You must also look at the price difference. I recon winter milk producers will be up 10c a litre on spring taking into account winter milk bonus of 5.6 c. I'm not saying winter is better than spring but I would never knock it. Cash flow is king in business.

Mooooo

blackdog1 wrote: »

Keepgrowing wrote:

I take your point about meal and silage for Feb/Mar. That's only 2 mths but you're doing it for 6 mths with your cow and system.

But your prepared for it and budgeted for it. You also have the shed space. You must also look at the price difference. I recon winter milk producers will be up 10c a litre on spring taking into account winter milk bonus of 5.6 c. I'm not saying winter is better than spring but I would never knock it. Cash flow is king in business.

My bonus only adds 1.4c to the price of whole years supply. If fresh calvers used for winter the price would only be the bonus amount above base. The bonus is added after solids adjustment to base also, it doesn't give a higher base so to speak

yewtree

Mooooo wrote: »

Yeah, will have to see how it develops tbh.
The split calving herd of 140 cows is continuing as normal, ie for research. They have cubicles with barriers in which cows can only go to certain feed points etc and that kinda thing.
They have also put together a spring calving demonstration herd of 60 cows with the following targets; 7500 to 8000kg milk/ 625 kgms in 305 days With a 365 day calving interval and 70% 6wk in calf rate. The point being the evaluate high feasibility of milk production grazing system on a limited land bank. The way they are going about it is 1500kg meal and grass and grass silage only. Stocking rate of 3.4 on mp, 2.25 on whole farm*. They are also doing a genetic comparison within the herd with one cow group having a milk pta of +288kg (high) and the other group a milk pta of +100kg (low). Cow size is approx 620 kg.
Due to the genetic comparison they are feeding all cows the same amount of feed, as in not fty. So they are feeding according to stage in lactation as opposed to what's in front of them at the time. So from a commercial point of view that would be the first issue but in order to do that comparison that is how it needs to go. They said they will likely change after 2 years and go fty. They are recording daily with the parlour so predicted yields are fairly good and in august the high milk group had given 300kgs more milk but 1kg less ms to date however the predicted yields show the high yield group finishing 700kg milk and 23kgs solids higher in supply for the 305 days. So given the production index is the same at 72/73 the ebi pta doesn't seem that far out. They are all one herd treated the same.
On grazing due to the high meal at the beginning of lactation high opening covers they found it hard to get going grazing covers as well as they liked with weather also. Tbh until the genetic comparison is done and out the way from a grass point of view they won't be going at full tilt. They were allocating 23kgs dm for first 120days of lactation tapered back to 18.5kgs after and to a low of 16kgs for the last third. They are staying within nitrates rules so 250kgs N. The reason for the * at the overall stocking rate they give is because this included the silage ground however all they take is 2.5 cuts off it so technically it's higher. We suggested zero grazing etc to have more grass instead of silage but they acknowledged they were options as to whether or not they go that way or not I dunno. Currently the rest of that ground it goes elsewhere in the lyons estate. Also most of the slurry goes.to.silage fields on rest of lyons estate so it was suggested could they keep 60 cows worth of slurry for their block as within the rules the indices on their own "block" won't hold. Currently at 3 for both p and k. They grew 13.3 tonne last year and used 11.4. Talking of hitting 14 tonne this year with close to 12 used.
Impression was perhaps not currently managed commercially so until it goes that way a pinch of salt may be needed. A couple of different people involved aside from lads doing the physical work so may not help, in terms of the overall picture but look they are involved elsewhere too so in a uni not entirely feasable. It is mainly feed costs they will look at as other costs there are shared amongst rest of farm and given its 60 cows I guess it could be taken just farmer labour and use your own costs for everything else. They are planning on starting a website so something to keep an eye on but realise it has its constraints in terms info to be taken from it. May have missed a few things but it was a few weeks back we were there.

It's their 1st attempt to run system trials up their so will be insteresting to see how they get on. They are a long way behind teagasc in terms of the relevance of a Info produced for farms. Back when i was doing ag there the dairy operation was a bit of a joke any commercial farmer with half a clue would have being running a more profitable operation

Buford T. Justice XIX

https://www.teagasc.ie/news--events/news/2016/pasturebase-merge-agrinet.php

Agrinet and PastureBase to merge.

RightTurnClyde

Interesting hour on hoof care and hoof trimming
https://youtu.be/vkUBgpGAkJk

pedigree 6

Keepgrowing wrote: »

Weather was the same for both groups. Ai for six weeks then He Bulls to finish. Six week calving rate matches ai.

Minerals were mentioned and got me thinking but I can only conclude that if 90% can manage with just minerals delivered by dairy nuts I don't really want the other 10%. The decision for these ladies is simple, cull them and get on with the fertile ladies.

No cow calving in May and hopefully none after 20th of April in 2018. The one thing I'm not prepared to do is start bollixing with hormones etc to catch these ladies. We gave up all interventions a few years ago and things are improving well. My goal is 80% calved in 6 weeks and 100% in 11 weeks. Work in progress

You will get there. I know I have only a small herd but I think the same rules apply.
We have been spring calving forever and never carry over cows not in calf. They are always fattened and in the factory. We have never done any interventions ever. It all depends on the condition of the cow calving down and the mineral status of the cows. We have no cleanings held the last few years and cows are cycling straight away. Calf size is important too, no point putting too much pressure on the cow.

Now with the breeding side of things I have found most of the longest lasting cows to be crossbred some way or back in the generations. The pictures of the cows I put up in the livestock pic thread, the white one is by KES (Holstein) out of a cow by KBA (red dutch friesian - nearly a mri ) and the other one is by WUH (Holstein) out of a monty cross that we bought in a clearance sale.
Crossbreeding to anything does definitely harden up the cow and help it go incalf. Now saying that I have hol/ freisians that last years but they would be crosses that are far apart and nearly crossbred themselves but just in the breed. Actually on the issue of buying stock in clearance sales. Let everyone else fight over the first and second calvers and buy from third calver up to fifth calver. These cows have lasted in that herd for that long and should/will usually give five or six lactations in your herd. Have always done this and been very lucky.

On that subject we usually have a first calver and a second calver that go incalf and then come back bulling in august. No matter what it happens every year. If they get to a third calver they last. The only thing I can think of is immunity to worms and they build up more resistance after this. Google ivermecton website. All the cows are wormed every year and receive their vaccinations so that's the only thing I can think of.

The only other thing is managing calves in the first year need to be stuffed with grass and meal and don't try and skimp on them. You can knock the meal out when the heifers come out of the sheds and hit the grass as yearlings and then always calve them down as two year olds.

That's our system all the time and works.

Edit: for the last 4 years now we have given all breeding stock mineral boluses and a definite improvement as well.
Those first and second calvers that come back bulling are culled as well.

Mooooo

Our five biggest cows are all out of wuh. Born as heifers' calves as well as the main reason we used him was he was proven easy calving at the time. Crazy tall

pedigree 6

Mooooo wrote: »

Our five biggest cows are all out of wuh. Born as heifers' calves as well as the main reason we used him was he was proven easy calving at the time. Crazy tall

No not really for Holstein cows. Ours was a small butty monty cross but had a lot of milk and her daughter has even more. But she is lasting. A fifth calver now.

pedigree 6

Bf 4.05
Pr 3.73
Lactose 4.73
Tbc 3
Scc 122
22.8 litres
3.8 kgs meal.

Buford T. Justice XIX

I came across a small bit of value added yesterday at the local shop.

There were a few glass bottles of milk, which I haven't seen for years, so I asked the shopkeeper where they came from and how they were doing.

A lad outside the local town buys milk from a neighbouring farmer and pasteurised and bottled it himself and delivers to local shops.

The local shop started with a half crate once a week and is now up to a crate twice a week with demand rising and that's just one shop.

Nice bit of value added for the farmer and a new business for the lad processing it.

pedigree 6

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

I came across a small bit of value added yesterday at the local shop.

There were a few glass bottles of milk, which I haven't seen for years, so I asked the shopkeeper where they came from and how they were doing.

A lad outside the local town buys milk from a neighbouring farmer and pasteurised and bottled it himself and delivers to local shops.

The local shop started with a half crate once a week and is now up to a crate twice a week with demand rising and that's just one shop.

Nice bit of value added for the farmer and a new business for the lad processing it.

Probably everyone here knows about killowen yoghurts. They have a large herd of cows and all the milk is used for themselves.

However a former bord bia official has now set up down there as well and is using their facilities to make his own brand of probiotic yoghurt and is getting the milk from Glanbia. With his contacts around the world and expertise on site in yoghurt making it looks to be another success.

Mooooo

My bull broke into the heifers last year in Dec for a bit of action and a grand Angus bull calf landed y day. Mother grand as well. Went to bring them in last night and the little fcuker covered the townland before I caught him. He'll be on his own for 3 weeks as that's when the rest start to ai. Mother is quiet when milking so a good if unplanned start

whelan2

Mooooo wrote: »

My bull broke into the heifers last year in Dec for a bit of action and a grand Angus bull calf landed y day. Mother grand as well. Went to bring them in last night and the little fcuker covered the townland before I caught him. He'll be on his own for 3 weeks as that's when the rest start to ai. Mother is quiet when milking so a good if unplanned start

How does a robot cope with heifers, have 2 bitches here at the minute, tying them up is the only way to milk them.

Mooooo

I don't know. Like all these systems I'd say best time to see it would be early spring with heifers etc coming in, away from the open days. I'd imagine you could leave heifers access before calving and have robot giving it a bit of meal so that would get them used to it at least. There is always one that will kick the place assunder tho. I find rope the best job. The eventually get the drift

mahoney_j

whelan2 wrote: »

How does a robot cope with heifers, have 2 bitches here at the minute, tying them up is the only way to milk them.

Totally stress free ,the robot won't give up ,shout at her hit her a slap of a wavin pipe ,put a kick bar on or a tail clamp .heifer eventually just gives up been a Cnut and enters robot ,stands eats her meal and leaves .seen heifers been milked in one for first time ,owner just got her into robot and didsspeared and we watched from a distance

Buford T. Justice XIX

Mooooo wrote: »

My bull broke into the heifers last year in Dec for a bit of action and a grand Angus bull calf landed y day. Mother grand as well. Went to bring them in last night and the little fcuker covered the townland before I caught him. He'll be on his own for 3 weeks as that's when the rest start to ai. Mother is quiet when milking so a good if unplanned start

A good start is half the battle.

Was it the smallest heifer that went in calf? That's what happens here, the smallest of the bunch stands and goes in calf and then some bigger girls show up not in calf:(

kowtow

whelan2 wrote:

How does a robot cope with heifers, have 2 bitches here at the minute, tying them up is the only way to milk them.

According to the lely guys the other day the heifers are a dream in the robot because they haven't got into any bad habits...

Mooooo

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Mooooo wrote: »

My bull broke into the heifers last year in Dec for a bit of action and a grand Angus bull calf landed y day. Mother grand as well. Went to bring them in last night and the little fcuker covered the townland before I caught him. He'll be on his own for 3 weeks as that's when the rest start to ai. Mother is quiet when milking so a good if unplanned start

A good start is half the battle.

Was it the smallest heifer that went in calf? That's what happens here, the smallest of the bunch stands and goes in calf and then some bigger girls show up not in calf:(

Ha Bang on, she was one of the shorter girls but in good condition. I only ai'd for 3 weeks and let the bull in then and 1 of the tallest heifers that didn't hold he couldn't manage cos he was too short himself on the slats. ... The heifers tend to be the same height as the bull which means he is less likely to hurt them in the spring but the flipside it's hard to see him amongst them in the field not a mind with the cows which u need to be aware of from a safety point of view. He's old enough to have the cop on not to try cows in the yard tho, waits till he has good grip to go jumping

Mooooo

Fine lump of a bill from mechanic on the tractor, had to split and do work on gearbox. Always happens the fecking tight year

stanflt

Mooooo wrote: »

Fine lump of a bill from mechanic on the tractor, had to split and do work on gearbox. Always happens the fecking tight year

What make model and whet do you consider a fine lump

Mooooo

96' nh 7840 sle. Just shy of 5k, including all other servicing and a new gear lever and back window. I know it could have been worse but anything outside of standard service this year is a killer tbh