Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

kowtow

alps wrote:

My question to him was, with this 20% rule, and the fact that approx 20% of Irish cows diet comes from concentrate, could irish farmers produce organic milk from organic grass and conventional feedstuffs. ?

alps wrote:

Would be interesting.��

Would be very interesting. My objection to organics has always been the arbitrary labelling... in the end you are exchanging one artificial market for another, and those who suffer tend to be those farmers who actually do have a a political or ethical drive and generally adhere to and surpass the regulations

But if Ireland is actually responsible within limits for its own definition of the organic label, then why not do it in such a way as to make organic production a real option... going from the least (i think) organic country in the EU to the most in a few short years would be a real story and one which consumers worldwide would engage with.

Fair trade, organic family farming in the heart of Europe and exporting worldwide... could be easily within our grasp.

But instead we have bord bia, who just gave a sustainability award to Macdonalds.

yosemitesam1

alps wrote: »

Yep...its incredible really the output from these Dutch farms. 80%grassland now, gone away to a large extent from cropping so that all these farms can get into derogation.

Interestingly met a Dutch grazier who has just changed over to organic. Only a 2 year changeover period. Really knowledgeable grass man, all the figures, and really good cost control. The organics allows him to use conventional sources for 20% of the cows diet. He shortened the lead in time to going organic by utilising this rule claiming yhe 20% went in during the first 2 months of the lead in stage.

My question to him was, with this 20% rule, and the fact that approx 20% of Irish cows diet comes from concentrate, could irish farmers produce organic milk from organic grass and conventional feedstuffs. ?

Would be interesting.��

How long is it since you were talking to him? Conventional feed used to be allowed here but it was always there plan to go to 100% organic

alps

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

How long is it since you were talking to him? Conventional feed used to be allowed here but it was always there plan to go to 100% organic

Spent a few hours with him last Thursday. .. We didn't chat about previous rules and regulations just what he had to do to get certified.
I don't know anything about the requirements here in Ireland but I would have thought they would be more restrictive than this.
As they are allowed to treat with antibiotics as a last resort, and allowing for a double withdrawl period, I just can't get it out of my head that we are producing a product that is so close to being organic, if in fact anything that is being produced, actually is..

yosemitesam1

alps wrote: »

Spent a few hours with him last Thursday. .. We didn't chat about previous rules and regulations just what he had to do to get certified.
I don't know anything about the requirements here in Ireland but I would have thought they would be more restrictive than this.
As they are allowed to treat with antibiotics as a last resort, and allowing for a double withdrawl period, I just can't get it out of my head that we are producing a product that is so close to being organic, if in fact anything that is being produced, actually is..

You used be allowed feed 10% non organic feed up to about 10 years ago here. Would have thought the eu would have made eveyone adopt the one set of rules for everyone.

kowtow

alps wrote: »

Spent a few hours with him last Thursday. .. We didn't chat about previous rules and regulations just what he had to do to get certified.
I don't know anything about the requirements here in Ireland but I would have thought they would be more restrictive than this.
As they are allowed to treat with antibiotics as a last resort, and allowing for a double withdrawl period, I just can't get it out of my head that we are producing a product that is so close to being organic, if in fact anything that is being produced, actually is..

I've always thought we are the nearest thing to organic in so many of our methods, and certainly the family farming obsession, that if any Island could actually "go organic" as a country we would be the prime candidate.

And yet - as in so many things from the design of housing to politics, we seem to have an inbuilt preference for the lowest common denominator - for function over form, volume over value... government support over thinking for oneself. We might be fantastic users of grass and slurry, but in both horsepower per acre and units of N we must surely be at the high end of synthetic inputs for grassland... the niche, high value, beef & dairy products which have been springing up from small farms in the UK have barely made it on to the radar here - and interest in organics is tiny, "because the grant isn't big enough" is the most common explanation I hear.

I am quite sure that I am painting with a broad brush here, but I am certain that a grant - no matter how big - never made a good organic farmer and I'm equally sure that those farmers who wouldn't convert to organics for lack of a grant aren't already so profitable that the amount would make a difference. I suspect instead that we all suffer from a sort of hard working laziness - lack of interest, or confidence, perhaps - but most of all a shortage of imagination. Because we can't imagine paying premium prices for organic food (the crap in the shops is expensive enough already?) we can't help but dismiss these products as a niche for rich people.

What is becoming increasingly clear to me - and I am certainly no fan of organic labels - is that good local food from local farmers *is* becoming a big thing, in the UK, in the US and worldwide. I was on the phone buying a track motor from the UK the other day and the guy at the other end was busy hunting down free range farm produced sausages in Birmingham. This is no longer the province of the Islington housewife with the spray on mud on the range rover. If you doubt this, look at the market share of Whole Foods (the shop) in the US and think again.

As far as I am aware, organic dairy herds in the UK have a yield which is equal to or better than we target from spring calving off grass.

So what, really, is stopping us going organic lock stock and barrel? Would the cost of 20% organic nuts really break us? Is ditching nitrogen just too much hard work? Even if some portion of Ireland's newly organic milk supply ended up in the powder ditch, a good chunk of it would go at a premium both locally and into Europe, and isn't that local premium - in the end - what we all envy when we look across the water?

alps

We have an unmatchable advantage over any other food producing nation in the world in terms of marketing differentiation and climatic advantage.

Do we first produce product that differentiates and then market it, or should we first market the product and then produce it?

It struck me passing a factory in North Wales, that produces wings for Airbus, that not a nut or bolt is bought by that factory before the aircraft is sold...

Could we ever produce to demand? Does any farming sector produce to demand?

visatorro

Greed kowtow, greed. Paddy wants more litres leaving his farm, more kgs of beef leaving his farm. More more more. You won't do that going the organic route. If your not expanding, then your only in the way of expansion. Expansion is Ireland only way of diversification. Or so we're told

kowtow

alps wrote: »

We have an unmatchable advantage over any other food producing nation in the world in terms of marketing differentiation and climatic advantage.

Do we first produce product that differentiates and then market it, or should we first market the product and then produce it?

It struck me passing a factory in North Wales, that produces wings for Airbus, that not a nut or bolt is bought by that factory before the aircraft is sold...

Could we ever produce to demand? Does any farming sector produce to demand?

When a nut doesn't turn up at that factory it's very expensive... I remember once organising a commercial helicopter charter to bring something stupidly small in, because the wait of an hour would have cost a lot more than a 100 mile flight in a Jet Ranger...

kowtow

alps wrote: »

Do we first produce product that differentiates and then market it, or should we first market the product and then produce it?

Is the problem at the moment that, for lack of boldness or original thought, we're actually in danger of doing neither of them?

And is this something which - as visatorro suggests - comes from us behind the farm gate, or is it from above - or is that the same thing, as in farm organisations which simply reflect their own membership.

It always struck me as significant that almost every one of the 50 or so farmhouse cheesemakers in the country either came back from abroad, or married a foreigner, or came in from Europe and married a local...

Timmaay

kowtow wrote: »

Is the problem at the moment that, for lack of boldness or original thought, we're actually in danger of doing neither of them?

And is this something which - as visatorro suggests - comes from us behind the farm gate, or is it from above - or is that the same thing, as in farm organisations which simply reflect their own membership.

It always struck me as significant that almost every one of the 50 or so farmhouse cheesemakers in the country either came back from abroad, or married a foreigner, or came in from Europe and married a local...

Sure isn't that the job of a chief executive on 1/2 a million or so a year!

jaymla627

kowtow wrote: »

I've always thought we are the nearest thing to organic in so many of our methods, and certainly the family farming obsession, that if any Island could actually "go organic" as a country we would be the prime candidate.

And yet - as in so many things from the design of housing to politics, we seem to have an inbuilt preference for the lowest common denominator - for function over form, volume over value... government support over thinking for oneself. We might be fantastic users of grass and slurry, but in both horsepower per acre and units of N we must surely be at the high end of synthetic inputs for grassland... the niche, high value, beef & dairy products which have been springing up from small farms in the UK have barely made it on to the radar here - and interest in organics is tiny, "because the grant isn't big enough" is the most common explanation I hear.

I am quite sure that I am painting with a broad brush here, but I am certain that a grant - no matter how big - never made a good organic farmer and I'm equally sure that those farmers who wouldn't convert to organics for lack of a grant aren't already so profitable that the amount would make a difference. I suspect instead that we all suffer from a sort of hard working laziness - lack of interest, or confidence, perhaps - but most of all a shortage of imagination. Because we can't imagine paying premium prices for organic food (the crap in the shops is expensive enough already?) we can't help but dismiss these products as a niche for rich people.

What is becoming increasingly clear to me - and I am certainly no fan of organic labels - is that good local food from local farmers *is* becoming a big thing, in the UK, in the US and worldwide. I was on the phone buying a track motor from the UK the other day and the guy at the other end was busy hunting down free range farm produced sausages in Birmingham. This is no longer the province of the Islington housewife with the spray on mud on the range rover. If you doubt this, look at the market share of Whole Foods (the shop) in the US and think again.

As far as I am aware, organic dairy herds in the UK have a yield which is equal to or better than we target from spring calving off grass.

So what, really, is stopping us going organic lock stock and barrel? Would the cost of 20% organic nuts really break us? Is ditching nitrogen just too much hard work? Even if some portion of Ireland's newly organic milk supply ended up in the powder ditch, a good chunk of it would go at a premium both locally and into Europe, and isn't that local premium - in the end - what we all envy when we look across the water?

Simply isn't the market for it here, was considering switching to organics and rang the only large scale organic processor in the country and they had no intrest, snowed under with milk and no market for it.....
Organic feed is nearly double conventional from looking it up

alps

Timmaay wrote: »

Sure isn't that the job of a chief executive on 1/2 a million or so a year!

We need to find a foreign wife for yhe CEO......do wonders for his imagination. ....

alps

kowtow wrote: »

When a nut doesn't turn up at that factory it's very expensive... I remember once organising a commercial helicopter charter to bring something stupidly small in, because the wait of an hour would have cost a lot more than a 100 mile flight in a Jet Ranger...

But we have gone to quiet another extreme altogether...

Not only have we plenty nuts and bolts in stock we have whole factories ready for the day we get the orders.

If one brand new factory was running at 47% capacity and an extended factory running at 55% (this week) could we consider it to be good planning? Just saying 😎

Markcheese

jaymla627 wrote:

Simply isn't the market for it here, was considering switching to organics and rang the only large scale organic processor in the country and they had no intrest, snowed under with milk and no market for it..... Organic feed is nearly double conventional from looking it up

Heres a laugh for you... I know a lad who was selling irish organic cheese in the states (bord bia backed ) , couldnt get in with the big boys because his group cant produce the volume,
I know of a large co-op owned
cheese plant thats fecked for lack of market... and
I know there's stacks of dairy farmers around here who've got the management skills to produce top end organic milk, from grass... and who'd love to be paid a premium price for a premium product, especially when prices are low...

arctic8dave

I know this has discussed to death here but article in IFJ today by a Aidan Brennan & talk about ****e. More or less this milk price is grand because us irish can thrive at 25c/l & supposedly include ful cop Labour land charge & interest.
Was at Greenfield open day this year & headline was there cop was 24 c/l but when you dig threw figures it excluded vat, fixes price scheme & their higher solids %. So they really needed something like 30.5 to brake even.
Maybe Aidan Brennan will work for no wage either & do his bit to lower the price of the IFJ like the numpties he's preaching too!!!!!
Rant over!

jaymla627

arctic8dave wrote: »

I know this has discussed to death here but article in IFJ today by a Aidan Brennan & talk about ****e. More or less this milk price is grand because us irish can thrive at 25c/l & supposedly include ful cop Labour land charge & interest.
Was at Greenfield open day this year & headline was there cop was 24 c/l but when you dig threw figures it excluded vat, fixes price scheme & their higher solids %. So they really needed something like 30.5 to brake even.
Maybe Aidan Brennan will work for no wage either & do his bit to lower the price of the IFJ like the numpties he's preaching too!!!!!
Rant over!

Theirs going to be some serious egg on these lads faces when the real loss that greenfield occurs this year is published would bet it will be the wrong side of 100,000, their was so many holes in their figures from the open day I couldn't start to list them out.....
Their working of a base of 20 cent a litre now too don't forget as they can't avail of co-op top -ups; think 22 cent was their factored in base price in this year's figures

yewtree

arctic8dave wrote: »

I know this has discussed to death here but article in IFJ today by a Aidan Brennan & talk about ****e. More or less this milk price is grand because us irish can thrive at 25c/l & supposedly include ful cop Labour land charge & interest.
Was at Greenfield open day this year & headline was there cop was 24 c/l but when you dig threw figures it excluded vat, fixes price scheme & their higher solids %. So they really needed something like 30.5 to brake even.
Maybe Aidan Brennan will work for no wage either & do his bit to lower the price of the IFJ like the numpties he's preaching too!!!!!
Rant over!

Was at the greenfield farm aswell. They stated clearly at the 1st board there cost of production was 37.5 when land charge and labour were included. The break even base price was 23-24 cent (can't remember exactly). They would receive a much higher price due to solids and fixed milk price.
The difference between base price and cost of production was nearly made up with higher solids/ fixed milk price and livestock sales. There were going to lose I think around €6000 this year but they have over 120,000 in the bank from better years.

I will see can I find a link to there budget it should be on the greenfield website

kevthegaff

Injuryprone wrote: »

Did you get a solution to the coughing, Kev? Mine were/are the exact same. Haven't responded to ibr vaccine anyway

Yep took temp of v bad ones and we're perfect, so Rabin ex on all milkers, 410 for 7 litres. Took a few days but coughing is nearly all gone, tbh it was wrecking me head listening to them. Prob go on a vacinating programme next year due to buying in stock.

Water John

I presume AB worked on Curtins farm for free.

Good discussion on organic. I think I remember seeing differences between organic in Sweden and Ireland. I think we have a high threshold in Ireland. I think in Sweden you were allowed import any slurry you wished from conventional farms. That would make a real diff to the nutrient supply.

Organic meal is dear. It would be more a matter of looking at growing a wholecrop that includes peas or some such.

yosemitesam1

Water John wrote: »

I presume AB worked on Curtins farm for free.

Good discussion on organic. I think I remember seeing differences between organic in Sweden and Ireland. I think we have a high threshold in Ireland. I think in Sweden you were allowed import any slurry you wished from conventional farms. That would make a real diff to the nutrient supply.

Thats allowed here as long as its not from a 'factory farm', you can import enough to bring you up to 170kg/n.

kowtow

Markcheese wrote: »

Heres a laugh for you... I know a lad who was selling irish organic cheese in the states (bord bia backed ) , couldnt get in with the big boys because his group cant produce the volume,
I know of a large co-op owned
cheese plant thats fecked for lack of market... and
I know there's stacks of dairy farmers around here who've got the management skills to produce top end organic milk, from grass... and who'd love to be paid a premium price for a premium product, especially when prices are low...

Agree +1000

When two of the big preoccupations of dairy farmers are the price of nitrogen and the cost of (?value of) compliant slurry storage it does make you wonder... if only there was a way....

I had a couple of friends in the UK who went organic with their dairy in the late 90's .. both in Gloucestershire... we just put it down to a hippy tendency at the time and thought no more of it, more money than sense kind of thing, but I have to say both farms are thriving, happy, places now looking over at them. I'm pretty sure they don't regret the change. I didn't pay too much attention at the time but I'm also pretty sure there was virtually no market (and certainly no nearby market) for organic milk at the time and they might well have been a long while waiting for the payback.

kowtow

Water John wrote: »

I think in Sweden you were allowed import any slurry you wished from conventional farms. That would make a real diff to the nutrient supply.

IIRC you can't even export manure from an organic holding to a conventional in Ireland - might not be an obvious problem but I would have thought that a lot of those actually going organic were on very small milking platforms and needed as much flexibility as they could lay their hands on to get going...

There's an article in (i think) the UK press this morning about a guy selling 20K litres a week of "custom" jersey milk blended for baristas to coffee shops in London, 30% premium and a big profit for the processor to boot. The coffee shops and customers are thrilled, partly because you can draw better "art" in the foam due to the protein. There is always a way forward if you are inventive enough.

Timmaay

kowtow wrote: »

IIRC you can't even export manure from an organic holding to a conventional in Ireland - might not be an obvious problem but I would have thought that a lot of those actually going organic were on very small milking platforms and needed as much flexibility as they could lay their hands on to get going...

There's an article in (i think) the UK press this morning about a guy selling 20K litres a week of "custom" jersey milk blended for baristas to coffee shops in London, 30% premium and a big profit for the processor to boot. The coffee shops and customers are thrilled, partly because you can draw better "art" in the foam due to the protein. There is always a way forward if you are inventive enough.

The Ifj actually had one interesting article today, Icelandic dairyfarmers get paid 64c/l! Yep they have minimum of 6month winters to deal with, but still mostly grass/silage based feed system. From my visit there last year local dairy produce appears to be well respected over there, with the supermarket shelves full of local stuff.

Markcheese

Teagasc had (maybe still have) an organic dairy farm in wexford... basically an expensive version of moorpark with boney holsteins...they also have curtins farm.. which isnt organic .but low input.. and probably much more interesting to fellas going organic...
If your thinking organic you wouldnt want to be relying on much meal ...

Water John

Organic, certainly initially, is likely to supply the liquid milk market. This needs some autumn calving, hence the feed issue.

If A2 milk has 10% of the Austrialian liquid milk market, which is nearly double the price of standard milk, then there is a significant potential market.

It is questionable how price sensitive the customer is. One can get a litre of milk in Aldi or Lidl for 70 cent. Yet people are willing to pay €1.18 in other shops for branded milk.

alps

Markcheese wrote: »

Teagasc had (maybe still have) an organic dairy farm in wexford... basically an expensive version of moorpark with boney holsteins...they also have curtins farm.. which isnt organic .but low input.. and probably much more interesting to fellas going organic...
If your thinking organic you wouldnt want to be relying on much meal ...

But if regulation was take to allow 20% of the diet to come from conventional sources this would rule out meal feeding as an issue and could make the whole deal damn attractive to irish farmers..

kowtow

While we are on the wider issue of local markets and the perceived limitations of being an exporter...

I notice that while we export 10bn of food, we import at least 5bn (possibly half of what the consumer buys on the supermarket shelf)..

And if you accept (which I don't necessarily, as they have an agenda) the an taisce figures for net import / export of calories we are - at the moment - quite a big net importer of food energy - in other words, far from growing a massive surplus because we are all land and no people, and having food to spare, we actually import food energy which we then export (a lot of it in milk and beef of course) rather than feeding it to the local market.

In a sense our farming system is a little bit like our technology companies... big headline sums of money but not a lot of the profits resting here (or at least not behind the farm gate)...

It's an important point because it raises fundamental questions of why we farm as we do... as alps I think said above, how are we choosing or meeting our markets here?

It's easy to accept the received wisdom that Ireland hasn't got enough consumers, but it turns out that we have a few more than we think, because they are spending 5 billion on imports, a fair bit of which is on cereals, sugar and potatoes - it's not just kiwi and pineapple) - and that's without even considering our big hungry & relatively wealthy UK neighbour.

If we are price takers, farming for the international commodity markets, it's not because we have to, it's a choice - and it's not necessarily a profitable one for farmers.

Timmaay

Sorta always knew I wouldn't be a dairyfarmer all my life, but the more I look at food in general these days the more appealing it is to find some more local use for our 100 odd acres here, that doesn't involve dumping the likes of 700klitres onto whatever emerging markets who haven't even decided if they should consume dairy produce yet. Not saying I don't think I can make a decent job of dairying, regardless of what road Ireland takes, just losing the motivation for it longer term ha.

Dawggone

Organic is laughable when you take a closer look...all antibiotics, wormers, chemicals etc are still allowed. Laughable.

However those that choose to connect with the consumer and give them the real, healthy, warts an' all tasty food, will find a market. The 'organic' label is just another way that big Ag gets its fingers into our production.

As far as a fool like me can see, the next 5 or more years will be difficult, very difficult. Those of us that are willing to brand and market our own produce, will succeed. It's incredibly lazy of us to allow the Glanbias of this world to do the most important part of 'farm to fork'.

Maybe I'm getting old but I think Kowtow is right.

Markcheese

I dont know what the french system is like, but under irish regs you have to get a derragation to medicate,you cant routinely medicate....the idea isnt to be backward, or have sick animals... if for eg your housing or calf handling/weaning are contributing to a pneumonia problem you'll have to fix
That... too many treatments will lead to the animal concerned losing organic status...
It isnt a perfect system... but for food exporters where the chain from farm to fork is long its better than anything else...