Why NOT to start a pedigree flock.

Arrow in the Knee

Lambing earlier.

Extra vet bills compared to commercial flock. More lambing difficulties.

Meal Feeding the ewe pre and post lambing for an extended period.
Creep Feeding the lambs from 3 weeks old to June maybe even later then bucket feeding them 3-4 times a day till their sold.

Not utilizing grass as much compared to commercial flock.

Buying/Valuing a ewe worth at least 400 Euro and cull price of 100 if your lucky.
Keeping good breeders even though they have a bad udder or weren't inlamb and giving them a chance.

Society fees. Plus lamb birth notifications and ram and ewe registrations.

Selling rams and paying an entry fee plus commission 5% to sell them. At a Premier Sale entry fee is 25 euros per lamb.

The need to keep pushing tups on via meal, typhon and everything else.

They're just of the top of my head.

Of course in a less intensive system there would be less cost involved.

Anybody wants to add anything in then go for it!

4512

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

Lambing earlier.

Extra vet bills compared to commercial flock. More lambing difficulties.

Meal Feeding the ewe pre and post lambing for an extended period.
Creep Feeding the lambs from 3 weeks old to June maybe even later then bucket feeding them 3-4 times a day till their sold.

Not utilizing grass as much compared to commercial flock.

Buying/Valuing a ewe worth at least 400 Euro and cull price of 100 if your lucky.
Keeping good breeders even though they have a bad udder or weren't inlamb and giving them a chance.

Society fees. Plus lamb birth notifications and ram and ewe registrations.

Selling rams and paying an entry fee plus commission 5% to sell them. At a Premier Sale entry fee is 25 euros per lamb.

The need to keep pushing tups on via meal, typhon and everything else.

They're just of the top of my head.

Of course in a less intensive system there would be less cost involved.

Anybody wants to add anything in then go for it!

Would still rather have the luxury of generally quieter sheep, extra income and less numbers

Would be hard to set up a pedigree flock but once ya get going im sure it wouldnt be too bad, especially in terms of finance

Arrow in the Knee

4512 wrote: »

Would still rather have the luxury of generally quieter sheep, extra income and less numbers

Would be hard to set up a pedigree flock but once ya get going im sure it wouldnt be too bad, especially in terms of finance

The term more money than sense comes to mind with pedigree breeders IMO.

There is far more inputs to try to get more output in return financially speaking.

Sometimes I feel I'm giving rams away metaphorically speaking.

Lano Lynn

:mad:Keeping good breeders even though they have a bad udder or weren't inlamb and giving them a chance.:mad:

how are these possibly good breeders?

this is just bad husbandry and one of the reasons I have reduced the number of rams i buy and thus the amount I spend at pedigree sales.
had enough of paying for over feed and over medicated BAD breeding
do breeders expect to profit from passing on to their problems to customers who are buying in good faith.

the best rams I have seen this few years while on the road shearing were NOT from registered pedigree flocks that is where I am going to buy the son of a physically healthy ram out of a sound ewe, fed on grass.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/sheep/70438533/breeder-pieces-together-romney-jigsaw-puzzle

rangler1

Lano Lynn wrote: »

:mad:Keeping good breeders even though they have a bad udder or weren't inlamb and giving them a chance.:mad:

how are these possibly good breeders?

this is just bad husbandry and one of the reasons I have reduced the number of rams i buy and thus the amount I spend at pedigree sales.
had enough of paying for over feed and over medicated BAD breeding
do breeders expect to profit from passing on to their problems to customers who are buying in good faith.

the best rams I have seen this few years while on the road shearing were NOT from registered pedigree flocks that is where I am going to buy the son of a physically healthy ram out of a sound ewe, fed on grass.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/sheep/70438533/breeder-pieces-together-romney-jigsaw-puzzle

Even the farmers that claim to be using crossbred rams are using rams that are usually only a step away from pedigree, you're only kidding yourself if you think pedigree breeders don't put huge emphasis on growth rate and viability.
I've sold ten rams to repeat customers this year already, because my stock rams are also used in the commercial flock

Arrow in the Knee

Lano Lynn wrote: »

:mad:Keeping good breeders even though they have a bad udder or weren't inlamb and giving them a chance.:mad:

how are these possibly good breeders?

this is just bad husbandry and one of the reasons I have reduced the number of rams i buy and thus the amount I spend at pedigree sales.
had enough of paying for over feed and over medicated BAD breeding
do breeders expect to profit from passing on to their problems to customers who are buying in good faith.

If a pedigree ewe is known to breed good lambs and has a bad udder I would and plenty more would keep the ewe and put her lambs on a bottle or machine eventhough commercially speaking that shouldn't be the case and the ewe should be culled.

Username John

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

If a pedigree ewe is known to breed good lambs and has a bad udder I would and plenty more would keep the ewe and put her lambs on a bottle or machine eventhough commercially speaking that shouldn't be the case and the ewe should be culled.

Not trying to be smart or catch you out now - but where should something like this be documented?
Like, in the star rating or something? As I imagine you couldn't have a maternal rated ram, with a mother who couldn't rear him?
Or am I totally showing my ignorance / naiviety of the whole thing?

Cran

Username John wrote: »

Not trying to be smart or catch you out now - but where should something like this be documented?
Like, in the star rating or something? As I imagine you couldn't have a maternal rated ram, with a mother who couldn't rear him?
Or am I totally showing my ignorance / naiviety of the whole thing?

Its suppose to be and any machine feed or adopted lambs here are recorded with LambPlus as such, but guess the question is would everyone?
I wouldn't really care about ewes with one spin being kept of terminal breeds such as Charollais or Vendeen, but for Belclares/Lleyn would be real issue. Bad elders get road here but tbh its for my own ease of management

Arrow in the Knee

Username John wrote: »

Not trying to be smart or catch you out now - but where should something like this be documented?
Like, in the star rating or something? As I imagine you couldn't have a maternal rated ram, with a mother who couldn't rear him?
Or am I totally showing my ignorance / naiviety of the whole thing?

The breeder has the option to notify or to not notify that either the Dam reared the lamb or was fostered onto another ewe.

The vast majority of the data inputted into Lambplus is done by the breeder whether its done truthfully or not.

The only time there is an 'independent person' inputting the data onto Lambplus is when the scanner comes out to weigh and ultrasound scan the lambs.

But as Fish Out of Water said on another thread the Lambplus crew should be able to spot anomalies in age, weight gain, etc... in their database.

Edit: Cran beat me to it.

Username John

Do the breed societies do any checks of their own?

What if a breeder is found in breech of the rules (let's say mis-declaring info) what happens then?

I always wondered do the breed societies care, or are they happy once the piece of paper says what they want (and they get their commission)

If I bought a ram that I was unhappy with, let's say at a breed sale, and it was found to have some kinda issue - do the breed society do anything in this case?

Username John

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

The breeder has the option to notify or to not notify that either the Dam reared the lamb or was fostered onto another ewe.
.

Option (as in optional data)

Or required to declare this info?

ganmo

are there any pedigree flocks run as a mid season lambing flock?

Arrow in the Knee

Username John wrote: »

Option (as in optional data)

Or required to declare this info?

I think there is a box to tick if you want to declare a lamb is fostered or not but that is down to the honesty of the breeder.

Username John

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

I think there is a box to tick if you want to declare a lamb is fostered or not but that is down to the honesty of the breeder.

Yeah - so whose job is it to keep the pedigree breeders honest, and what are the repercussions if they are not honest?

Am I correct to say that is accepted thinking that a lot of the info provided by breeders is not reliable?

The reason I say this, is I see / hear of a lot of 'up to the honesty of the breeder' type statements, as opposed to 'the breeder should' or 'it's the breeders responsibility' which makes me think people think the info isn't right, but no one wants to say it directly?

rangler1

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

I think there is a box to tick if you want to declare a lamb is fostered or not but that is down to the honesty of the breeder.

What's the problem with a lamb being fostered....or even a ewe getting mastitis..even without having mastitis, if she has three the lamb will have to be fostered..are you not going overboard a bit here now, mastitis is just an unfortunate occurrence...
On running a midseason pedigree flock, you have to keep the rams to sixteen to eighteen mths old before they are fit to be sold and farmers won't give you anymore for the ram.

We don't keep ewes with wrong udders either, for the same reason as Cran

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

Yeah - so whose job is it to keep the pedigree breeders honest, and what are the repercussions if they are not honest?

Am I correct to say that is accepted thinking that a lot of the info provided by breeders is not reliable?

The reason I say this, is I see / hear of a lot of 'up to the honesty of the breeder' type statements, as opposed to 'the breeder should' or 'it's the breeders responsibility' which makes me think people think the info isn't right, but no one wants to say it directly?

There's probably the same percentage of messers in sheep breeding as in any walk of life, there's a good few DNA checks done in our society and since the first year there has been no discrepancies and there's not a lot more checks you can do, the ram will be as you see him and most breeders will take him back if he's not fertile.

Username John

rangler1 wrote: »

There's probably the same percentage of messers in sheep breeding as in any walk of life, there's a good few DNA checks done in our society and since the first year there has been no discrepancies and there's not a lot more checks you can do, the ram will be as you see him and most breeders will take him back if he's not fertile.

But that's why there are tax officials and the likes in other walks of life - to keep lads honest

But let's say bad traits in a ram - incorrect mouth or feet?
Do societies not have rules or standards here? Or are they just not enforced?

I thought I saw something from a breed sale someone posted a while back and it said something like "no major defects, no straw"? Maybe I read it wrong?

I might be coming across as a bit against breed society - but I don't understand what they do for people who buy their product? Or do they do nothing, they push their own agenda, and to hell with the product once it's sold to someone who doesn't pay membership fees?

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

But that's why there are tax officials and the likes in other walks of life - to keep lads honest

But let's say bad traits in a ram - incorrect mouth or feet?
Do societies not have rules or standards here? Or are they just not enforced?

I thought I saw something from a breed sale someone posted a while back and it said something like "no major defects, no straw"? Maybe I read it wrong?

I might be coming across as a bit against breed society - but I don't understand what they do for people who buy their product? Or do they do nothing, they push their own agenda, and to hell with the product once it's sold to someone who doesn't pay membership fees?

We'd always have someone inspecting in a society sale, and teeth and feet would always be checked but no one's perfect, that's why I say check before you pay,
Our society has barely enough money to cover advertising and office expenses, it's there to promote the breed, it wouldn't have the resources to do anything else and the voluntary office holders really have enough to do

gazahayes

rangler1 wrote: »

On running a midseason pedigree flock, you have to keep the rams to sixteen to eighteen mths old before they are fit to be sold and farmers won't give you anymore for the ram.

I bought a charollais ram lamb and lleyn hogget ram from a breeder 2 years ago. All run as a commercial mid season flock with very little extra attention. Never went back after being out with ewes and get very little treatment here either and they're still smashing rams.

Was at the texel viewing day today and wasn't impressed with them. There was about 25 or 30 ram lambs in a section of a paddock about 4 or 5 were bad on the feet struggling to walk. I moved my own fat lambs this morning and I think only 1 or 2had a slight touch of scald out of 98 and no routine footbathing.

Cran

Username John wrote: »

But that's why there are tax officials and the likes in other walks of life - to keep lads honest

But let's say bad traits in a ram - incorrect mouth or feet?
Do societies not have rules or standards here? Or are they just not enforced?

I thought I saw something from a breed sale someone posted a while back and it said something like "no major defects, no straw"? Maybe I read it wrong?

I might be coming across as a bit against breed society - but I don't understand what they do for people who buy their product? Or do they do nothing, they push their own agenda, and to hell with the product once it's sold to someone who doesn't pay membership fees?

10% of Rams were rejected in pre sale checks at our sale on Saturday, some were very marginal calls but it's the right way to go. Over feeding is a way bigger problem than feet, mouths and correct sire info but farmers don't seem to care from what I see at the sales. This is why I much prefer to sell directly from the house in working clothes not pushed Rams on a nice regime

rangler1

Cran wrote: »

10% of Rams were rejected in pre sale checks at our sale on Saturday, some were very marginal calls but it's the right way to go. Over feeding is a way bigger problem than feet, mouths and correct sire info but farmers don't seem to care from what I see at the sales. This is why I much prefer to sell directly from the house in working clothes not pushed Rams on a nice regime

Mightn't be as strict in ordinary sales, premier sales are what it says on the tin...premier.
Just a heads up guys, stap rams are walking out of the yard here so if it's the same story with breeders around the country....you'd want to be looking them up if you've ticked that task ,

Green farmer

rangler1 wrote: »

We'd always have someone inspecting in a society sale, and teeth and feet would always be checked but no one's perfect, that's why I say check before you pay,
o

I had to learn the hard way and ended up with a 5* ram who had a very deformed lower jaw and teeth from a society sale last year, from not checking beforehand. Most breeders are decent but as rangler said you'll find the odd chancer in all walks of life, and before ye ask, it was not from either of yer societies lads :pac:

Cran

rangler1 wrote: »

Mightn't be as strict in ordinary sales, premier sales are what it says on the tin...premier.
Just a heads up guys, stap rams are walking out of the yard here so if it's the same story with breeders around the country....you'd want to be looking them up if you've ticked that task ,

Same here, all hoggets sold (but did have less than normal due to over supply of ewe lambs in April 2014) and few lambs already sold directly from house. Don't think ever sold lambs so early

ganmo

Cran wrote: »

Same here, all hoggets sold (but did have less than normal due to over supply of ewe lambs in April 2014) and few lambs already sold directly from house. Don't think ever sold lambs so early

would you put different values on each when selling from the house? (based on stars or appearance?) only ever bought rams in the mart

Cran

ganmo wrote: »

would you put different values on each when selling from the house? (based on stars or appearance?) only ever bought rams in the mart

Cull hard here so tend to have even balanced bunch. Would normally put price on pick of bunch and go from there. tbh once there is more consistency in the Stars and I'm happy with them I may use them to price.

razor8

Interesting article on overfeeding lambs and its effects, slowly some breeders are starting to cop on and produce what a commercial farmer needs

AnFeirmeoir

interesting, but does anyone here have a ram that can serve 100-150 ewes in 17 days? Don't believe this for a second.

ganmo

AnFeirmeoir wrote: »

interesting, but does anyone here have a ram that can serve 100-150 ewes in 17 days? Don't believe this for a second.

Thats the ratio that NZ works to
http://www.beeflambnz.com/Documents/Farm/Flockmaster%20ram%20health%20and%20management.pdf

UK + ireland operate at max 50 to one

razor8

I let out a 2 yo charloais ram with 96 ewes last year as he's a 5 star ram and wanted to make sure I got the most from him. I had only 1 scanned empty from him
He ran from one ewe to the next and didn't waste anytime

It's not something I normally do and usually go 1:60 or so

rangler1

razor8 wrote: »

I let out a 2 yo charloais ram with 96 ewes last year as he's a 5 star ram and wanted to make sure I got the most from him. I had only 1 scanned empty from him
He ran from one ewe to the next and didn't waste anytime

It's not something I normally do and usually go 1:60 or so

Apparently a ram serves a ewe only once if he doesn't get the smell of another ram on her, I used to see the same with a bull here, he was very quite so we got to use a chin marker on him and it was rare that he'd mark a cow twice

razor8

rangler1 wrote: »

Apparently a ram serves a ewe only once if he doesn't get the smell of another ram on her, I used to see the same with a bull here, he was very quite so we got to use a chin marker on him and it was rare that he'd mark a cow twice

Would have to agree, seen ewes standing beside him after serving them and he ignored them!! Funny watching it

orm0nd

problem of only running 1 ram if he goes infertile, friend of mine had 60 ewes empty last year & didn't find out until too late

ram had worked well year before

razor8

orm0nd wrote: »

problem of only running 1 ram if he goes infertile, friend of mine had 60 ewes empty last year & didn't find out until too late

ram had worked well year before

Know a fella had 30 dry after same thing. For insurance I put in 2 ram lambs after 20 days and swapped another ram. I also had the rams raddled so I would of noticed a large number of repeats if something was wrong.