School Books rip offs

Realt Dearg Sec

bajer101 wrote: »

Maybe I haven't articulated correctly why I believe that the €16 is extortionate and why I believe it is a racket. The main reason is because it is a workbook and it can't be sold or passed on. There is a school rental scheme in place in the school. AFAIK, all primary schools have been given funding to implement this. But the problem is that the majority of the books are workbooks, so the book rental scheme doesn't apply.

Comparing the cost of the book to wine, meals, bear or cigarettes is irrelevant. The €120 that I just spent on books is a pittance compared to that total cost of rearing a child per year, but that is also irrelevant. This book is €16 and I believe that it is overpriced. A family with a few kids, at different stages of education could really struggle with the combined costs of "use once" books. They could also face further costs by having to buy school uniforms, which I think is a also a racket. These uniforms can often only be bought in one shop which have an effective monopoly.

What I would like to see change is the re-introduction of non-workbook textbooks with the work carried out in copies. A limit on revised editions (which I also think is a racket designed to increase new sales). And the introduction generic uniforms with the school selling crests that could be sown onto the uniforms.

Actually, what I would really like to see happen is for all core textbooks to be provided free of charge to all students and paid for from central government education budget, as happens in the UK. Education is supposed to be free for all children. If core textbooks were paid for by the Dept. of Education and if ownership was provided by the school, I am sure that we would see a return to the non-workbook type of books and better value for the taxpayer as the Dept. would be able to leverage large discounts.

So you want everyone else to pay for your kid's book.

bajer101

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

So you want everyone else to pay for your kid's book.

??? I want the whole education system to be paid for from central funds. We are supposed to have free education, but we don't. We have a subsidised education system. Did your parents pay your teacher's salaries directly? The Dept. of educations budget is approx €450m. If this was expanded to include school books and supplies it would probably only add an additional €30m to this budget and would result in a better deal. This is based on the fact that the school book market is worth €55m per year. If it was centralised and managed by the Government they would probably only pay half of that, based on the figures from the UK where they manage to pay half of what we pay for books per student. It would do away with the cozy cartel of publishers who could be accused of price fixing. There are no discounts allowed by retailers and the cost of the various books from different publishers are all remarkably similar.

If the government was responsible for supplying the books this practice would not be tolerated. To equate a desire for the introduction of such a system as "wanting someone else to pay for my child's books" is ridiculous. I would be paying for my child's books through taxes, the same way I am paying for the rest of her education. Before I had a child I was paying for other people's children's education and had no problem with it. If you extend you argument to not wanting people to pay for other people's children's education we would have a totally privatised education system.

Mardy Bum

bajer101 wrote: »

??? I want the whole education system to be paid for from central funds. We are supposed to have free education, but we don't.

How much do you pay for tuition directly to your child's school?

If this is your attitude toward a Maths book I shudder to think about how much you would be willing to invest in your child's education in the long run.

Parents in America have to save for decades to send their kids to college. We have it very lucky here in comparison.

zeffabelli

Mardy Bum wrote: »

How much do you pay for tuition directly to your child's school?

If this is your attitude toward a Maths book I shudder to think about how much you would be willing to invest in your child's education in the long run.

Parents in America have to save for decades to send their kids to college. We have it very lucky here in comparison.

College is optional.

It's against the law not to go to school. If the government makes people go, government should pay for it.

byhookorbycrook

When I was a child, we made sure to make links with older kids to pass along 2nd handbooks.

byhookorbycrook

zeffabelli wrote: »

College is optional.

It's against the law not to go to school. If the government makes people go, government should pay for it.

ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR home schooling>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

delahuntv

zeffabelli wrote: »

College is optional.

It's against the law not to go to school. If the government makes people go, government should pay for it.

Nope - you may home school if you wish.

Mardy Bum

zeffabelli wrote: »

College is optional.

It's against the law not to go to school. If the government makes people go, government should pay for it.

I hope that is suppose to be ironic.

opiniated

obezyana wrote: »

August is almost here, it is the month of school books, school uniforms, stationary, fees etc im gonna broke for the next month. Do i mind.......NO its my kids education. Yes its a pain in the ass the changing/updating of workbooks but this is the way its done now and to be fair the standard in schools is well better than it has been.

I dont get no back to school payments or uniform grants im a single dad that just has to suck it up and pay from my own pocket. 16euro for a workbook would be the least of my worries. We must look at the bigger picture and that is the education of our kids.

I personally don't believe the standard is better.
I was appalled to find, when my child was in secondary school, that some of the kids were still struggling to learn how to calculate compound interest.

We learned that in 5th class when I was at school!

bajer101 wrote: »

Maybe I haven't articulated correctly why I believe that the €16 is extortionate and why I believe it is a racket. The main reason is because it is a workbook and it can't be sold or passed on. There is a school rental scheme in place in the school. AFAIK, all primary schools have been given funding to implement this. But the problem is that the majority of the books are workbooks, so the book rental scheme doesn't apply.

Comparing the cost of the book to wine, meals, bear or cigarettes is irrelevant. The €120 that I just spent on books is a pittance compared to that total cost of rearing a child per year, but that is also irrelevant. This book is €16 and I believe that it is overpriced. A family with a few kids, at different stages of education could really struggle with the combined costs of "use once" books. They could also face further costs by having to buy school uniforms, which I think is a also a racket. These uniforms can often only be bought in one shop which have an effective monopoly.

What I would like to see change is the re-introduction of non-workbook textbooks with the work carried out in copies. A limit on revised editions (which I also think is a racket designed to increase new sales). And the introduction generic uniforms with the school selling crests that could be sown onto the uniforms.

Actually, what I would really like to see happen is for all core textbooks to be provided free of charge to all students and paid for from central government education budget, as happens in the UK. Education is supposed to be free for all children. If core textbooks were paid for by the Dept. of Education and if ownership was provided by the school, I am sure that we would see a return to the non-workbook type of books and better value for the taxpayer as the Dept. would be able to leverage large discounts.

Agreed. The cost for a child is one thing. For those who have a couple of children at school, the cost of schoolbooks can be prohibitive, particularly those who are struggling as a result of the downturn in the economy.

Your idea re: the Dept. of Education purchasing all schoolbooks is a good one, imo.
Even if funds are not available atm. for the Dept to actually fund the cost of the books, the price reductions that could be achieved on behalf of the parents would be significant, imo.

The_Valeyard

The system of education in England is in complete chaos and one gigantic mess. the last thing we need to do in Ireland is to copy it.

opiniated

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The system of education in England is in complete chaos and one gigantic mess. the last thing we need to do in Ireland is to copy it.

I don't think anyone suggested we actually copy the system of education, though?

One eyed Jack

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What's the problem again?

€16 is not extortionate for a school book. They're usually reasonably priced, and if you're complaining about the cost of school books at primary level, wait till your daughter is in college and you'll find out all about the extortionate cost of books.

If you actually buy a book in college. You are doing it wrong!

cloud493

I'm pretty sure some of my textbooks in secondary school cost me €60 odd.

inocybe

It's a racket, the publishers change things around a little so they can bring out a new version. Teachers insist on the new version because page numbers need to match, but the content is basically the same. Rip off.
And the quality of the workbooks is pitiful.

Lau2976

bajer101 wrote: »

To equate a desire for the introduction of such a system as "wanting someone else to pay for my child's books" is ridiculous. I would be paying for my child's books through taxes, the same way I am paying for the rest of her education. Before I had a child I was paying for other people's children's education and had no problem with it. If you extend you argument to not wanting people to pay for other people's children's education we would have a totally privatised education system.

I don't understand how your system would benefit the whole of society though and not just parents?

Having children in Ireland is majorly subsidized already and this system for books really isn't all that beneficial to society, we are already churning out highly educated graduates.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

I think especially with a Maths book you'd think the content is relatively static. In 50 years time I can't see how a Maths book for a kid in third class will be much different from today. Adding/subtraction/division/multiplication are and will always be a constant with primary school education and that's it. It's only in secondary school where what children learn can properly fluctuate to any great degree. The same can basically apply to Irish where you learn the main irregular verbs ect and with English where you basically just need a high level of spelling to meet what's required to go onto second level.

I don't know what the solution is but it sure does feel like books for primary school children are unnecessarily expensive.
And people saying, (paraphrasing here) "you can't put a price on a child's education", is a total hogwash answer to the op. You actually CAN complain about the price of books while simultaneously looking for ways to bring down the price of books while also actually buying said books for a child's education. These aren't separate actions completely divorced from each other. (I won't do a rolleyes)

faceman

I failed maths in school and the reason is embarrassing.

Busy At Maths had a new version out. It cost £24 at the time but I figured I'll just buy a second hand copy of the previous version.

Well I was in for a shock

Little did I know that the adjustment of colour in the "Example" section had been changed to boost your probability of success by 18.4%

It was enough to push me into pass territory but unfortunately my second hand copy had the examples in a pale purple. My brain wasn't stimulated.

If only I had realised that the solution to why X wasn't equal to Y when Z is variable could have been made so much simpler in an Arial font rather than Times New Roman.

Damn my stupidity.

Buy books new. Especially heavy ones. The heavier the book the more important it is.

the_syco

One eyed Jack wrote: »

What's the problem again?

€16 is not extortionate for a school book. They're usually reasonably priced, and if you're complaining about the cost of school books at primary level, wait till your daughter is in college and you'll find out all about the extortionate cost of books.

You can't buy 2nd hand books a lot of the time, as the book now as a new edition. Same information, just a newer book.

zeffabelli

delahuntv wrote: »

Nope - you may home school if you wish.

People have to go to work. You want every parent on social welfare?

zeffabelli

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

When I was a child, we made sure to make links with older kids to pass along 2nd handbooks.

It's all workbooks they write in so can't be passed down. End up in the recycling bin.

It's not just the books.... If it were that alone it would be one thing... But a parent having to dole out close to a grand for two kids in primary school is a lot of pressure.

There are parents taking out credit union loans at the moment.

CarrickMcJoe

2 months before the leaving teacher told my son's class they needed 2 extra books. Major panic, eventually got 2 books for close to €30.
Right up to leaving, not one page of either book was looked at!

bajer101

Mardy Bum wrote: »

How much do you pay for tuition directly to your child's school?

You conveniently left out the part of my comment which said that we have a subsidised educational system. If it were truly free then all books and supplies would also be paid for from central funds. This seems like a perfectly reasonable policy and arguing against it just smacks of you wanting to have a go at me because you don't like my opinion on the cost of this particular book.

If this is your attitude toward a Maths book I shudder to think about how much you would be willing to invest in your child's education in the long run.

My opinion towards the cost of this book and thinking that it is overpriced has nothing to do with how much I will spend on my child's education. At what point would you cry foul about the cost of a particular text book? If the same book was €30 would that be ok? What about €100? If you complained about it being €100 would I be entitled to scoff at you and say "how dare you quibble about the cost of this book! You obviously don't value your child if you won't pay this for the book".

Parents in America have to save for decades to send their kids to college. We have it very lucky here in comparison.

What has that got to do with my opinion that I think this book is overpriced?

Just to recap, what we are talking about here is my opinion that this book is overpriced and is also bad value because it is a workbook and can't be passed on. I believe that this is as a result of a cozy cartel like operation between the publishers.

The equivalent book in the UK costs £4.70 and is not a workbook. This book is not only less than half the price of the Irish version, but it can also be passed on if bought privately, or as is the case in England, it will be retained by the school and passed on.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/KS2-Maths-Study-Book-Books/dp/1847621848/ref=sr_1_4?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1437988921&sr=8-4&keywords=ks2+maths+4

zeffabelli

This thread belongs in RIP off Ireland forum.

bajer101

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

When I was a child, we made sure to make links with older kids to pass along 2nd handbooks.

As did I, but this is not possible with this €16 book as it is also a workbook. Workbooks seem to be the latest swizz thought up by the publishers. They had to restrict the practice of bringing out revised editions every year when that was cracked down on. The Dept. of Education leant on them and pressured the 8 publishers to bring in a code of practice limiting how often new editions could be introduced.

The_Valeyard wrote: »

The system of education in England is in complete chaos and one gigantic mess. the last thing we need to do in Ireland is to copy it.

Whatever state the English education system is in is hardly down to the fact that the Government pay for the books, supplies and school lunches. If you think that Government funded books and supplies is a bad idea, could you please explain why?

cloud493 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure some of my textbooks in secondary school cost me €60 odd.

I don't doubt it and I would argue that these too are overpriced and are subject to the same level of price fixing.

Lau2976 wrote: »

I don't understand how your system would benefit the whole of society though and not just parents?

Having children in Ireland is majorly subsidized already and this system for books really isn't all that beneficial to society, we are already churning out highly educated graduates.

Well, everyone was a child at one stage and if we introduced a centrally funded system for Schoolbooks today, then the future generations would have all received "free" books. They're not really free of course as it is the tax payer who pays, but most people go on to have kids. In this system the total expenditure would be reduced so the average person would end up saving.

heldel00

I've said it already and I'll say it again (post 60) workbooks can be used in book rental schemes where children won't write in the books and use copies instead.
Attend your next Parents assoc AGM and put forward this motion.

Lau2976

bajer101 wrote: »

Well, everyone was a child at one stage and if we introduced a centrally funded system for Schoolbooks today, then the future generations would have all received "free" books. They're not really free of course as it is the tax payer who pays, but most people go on to have kids. In this system the total expenditure would be reduced so the average person would end up saving.

This scheme doesn't benefit the education of the child as either way kids are going to get the books. This is to benefit the parents who don't want to shell out money on the children that they've produced. Children that they already receive financial help out of taxes to raise.

And yes, parents paying taxes will contribute to the cost of books but so will the massive population of childless people, who would have probably paid off their cost of education years before they'll stop paying tax.

And even if they did do it, how would it be implemented? The same book for every student in the country? Would they be sold in shops or gotten through the schools? What about supplementary books? Or special needs? would they also be provided free of charge even if not that many students in the country need them.

This would just be another department for the government to fill with people that we can't afford to do a job thats being provided sufficiently by the private sector currently for no reason.

bajer101

Lau2976 wrote: »

This scheme doesn't benefit the education of the child as either way kids are going to get the books. This is to benefit the parents who don't want to shell out money on the children that they've produced. Children that they already receive financial help out of taxes to raise.

And yes, parents paying taxes will contribute to the cost of books but so will the massive population of childless people, who would have probably paid off their cost of education years before they'll stop paying tax.

Do you think that we should have a free education system? I am guessing that I am a fair bit older than you and therefore I would have been paying taxes that contributed towards your education while you were in school and I was working and didn't have children. Did you object to childless taxpayers paying for your education? I suspect not. Is your position on this a thinly veiled "I don't want to pay any more taxes to support people on welfare?"

And even if they did do it, how would it be implemented? The same book for every student in the country? Would they be sold in shops or gotten through the schools? What about supplementary books? Or special needs? would they also be provided free of charge even if not that many students in the country need them.

This would just be another department for the government to fill with people that we can't afford to do a job thats being provided sufficiently by the private sector currently for no reason.

It is done successfully in other countries, the UK and France for example. They manage to pay about 50% less for books per child than our system. As to how it would be implemented, there are a number of options. The schools would definitely be in charge of the local distribution. The Dept. could identify the books to be used - they already set the curriculum. We could even get very radical and introduce e-readers. There are lots of ways of implementing it. The job is not being provided sufficiently by the private sector. They are producing books that are overpriced and which can't be re-used, with at least one company outsourcing the printing to an Indian firm who pay their workers €3 per day.

Lau2976

bajer101 wrote: »

Do you think that we should have a free education system? I am guessing that I am a fair bit older than you and therefore I would have been paying taxes that contributed towards your education while you were in school and I was working and didn't have children. Did you object to childless taxpayers paying for your education? I suspect not. Is your position on this a thinly veiled "I don't want to pay any more taxes to support people on welfare?"

Yes I do believe education should be provided for free. I do not believe education supplies should be provided for free. Just like I'm contributing to the education of your children because that is the system in which we live. I have no issue providing the schools and teachers for children

I wholeheartedly believe in a welfare state so no, it isn't a thinly veiled "I don't want to pay anymore taxes to support people on welfare". I believe in a welfare system where people who need help get it, not where taxes are increased universally to save someone else some money.

This is a not so thinly veiled position of "if you contributed to their production or have taken on responsibilities of raising them, don't expect the state to fund something that you can afford but don't want to pay for"

It is done successfully in other countries, the UK and France for example. They manage to pay about 50% less for books per child than our system. As to how it would be implemented, there are a number of options. The schools would definitely be in charge of the local distribution. The Dept. could identify the books to be used - they already set the curriculum. We could even get very radical and introduce e-readers. There are lots of ways of implementing it. The job is not being provided sufficiently by the private sector. They are producing books that are overpriced and which can't be re-used, with at least one company outsourcing the printing to an Indian firm who pay their workers €3 per day.

So? Plenty of things are done successfully in other countries, doesn't mean it'll work here. The public sector has enough strain and is a black hole for funds enough without another department. So add more strain to our already thinly stretched schools? cool. Put a number a stores out of business? let a child carry around something that costs at least 80e that can easily be smashed, lost or damaged?

It is being provided suffeciently, you just don't want to pay for it.

They can be reused as a number of people have pointed out. You've had no issue with the ethical practices of the companies thus far. Why now?

bajer101

Lau2976 wrote: »

Yes I do believe education should be provided for free. I do not believe education supplies should be provided for free. Just like I'm contributing to the education of your children because that is the system in which we live. I have no issue providing the schools and teachers for children

I wholeheartedly believe in a welfare state so no, it isn't a thinly veiled "I don't want to pay anymore taxes to support people on welfare". I believe in a welfare system where people who need help get it, not where taxes are increased universally to save someone else some money.

This is a not so thinly veiled position of "if you contributed to their production or have taken on responsibilities of raising them, don't expect the state to fund something that you can afford but don't want to pay for"




So? Plenty of things are done successfully in other countries, doesn't mean it'll work here. The public sector has enough strain and is a black hole for funds enough without another department. So add more strain to our already thinly stretched schools? cool. Put a number a stores out of business? let a child carry around something that costs at least 80e that can easily be smashed, lost or damaged?

It is being provided suffeciently, you just don't want to pay for it.

They can be reused as a number of people have pointed out. You've had no issue with the ethical practices of the companies thus far. Why now?

So basically you agree with the taxpayer paying €450m per year for the education budget, but for some reason draw the line at schoolbooks and supplies? Even if this resulted in a better deal? I don't understand this position, but you are of course entitled to it.

What you are not entitled to, is to claim that "you just don't want to pay for it". I don't want to pay above the odds for something if I think it is overpriced. Where your claim really falls down is that if books were provided from central funds I would personally end up paying a lot more than I currently as I pay about three times the national average of PAYE. But I wouldn't mind this as the books would be better value and it would benefit society instead of a cartel of publishers.

I have no problem paying for services or other products for my child - I just have a problem if I think they are overpriced, which is what this thread is about. Today I paid an additional €75 to the school for violin lessons which I think is fantastic value considering she will get 1 hours violin tuition a week for approx 30 weeks. I also don't mind paying the €180 for her gymnastics classes as they represent good value and are competitively priced with other similar classes.

To reiterate - I am complaining about a €16 book which I think is overpriced. The equivalent book in the UK is less than £5.

Mardy Bum

bajer101 wrote: »

So basically you agree with the taxpayer paying €450m per year for the education budget, but for some reason draw the line at schoolbooks and supplies? Even if this resulted in a better deal? I don't understand this position, but you are of course entitled to it.

Do you have any idea at the state of education infrastructure across the country. Schools are packed to capacity. There are 30-1 in small classrooms. There is very limited play areas in some schools. The budget has been increased last year for the first time in years which mainly went to help those with SENs which was a long time coming.

Anything from the English education system has to come with a warning because the average teacher doesn't last 5 years in it and they are recruiting from foreign countries just to get people to teach English in England. There is something very very wrong with it.

There are book grants for those unable to afford books in Ireland and they are relatively easy to get.