400m Reps

kennyb3

Did 8 *400m (87 - 93 secs per rep) with 2 mins rest last night. First session in ages.

Wondering what's the best thing to do in terms of repeating it once a week:

- try to run on average each rep slightly faster; or
- shorten recovery; or
- increase number of reps


What does each specifically achieve?

Running reps faster obviously gets you use to running faster, but how long to repeat before trying to decrease time taken again.

Running more reps - I assume that builds speed endurance? But how far do you take it? 10, 12, 16 reps?

Is there any benefit to shorter recovery?

So all in all which of the 3 to pick and why?

28064212

What's your aim? And why do you have to choose only one?

kennyb3

28064212 wrote: »

What's your aim? And why do you have to choose only one?

Choosing one as very hard to improve all 3 at one time :pac:.

I don't have to chose all 3 though - i'm more trying to generate a discussion as to what's best and why.

Aim is to race 5k faster.

It's more about figuring out how people 'improve' their speed sessions - i.e how do I take my 400m reps onwards from what I did last night. Do I run faster, so more of them or give myself less recovery?

What adaptions will each stimulate and what's most suited to my goal?

28064212

kennyb3 wrote: »

Choosing one as very hard to improve all 3 at one time :pac:.

In one session, yes. But there's nothing stopping you from aiming for faster reps next week, and more reps the week after, and shorter recoveries the week after that.

kennyb3 wrote: »

Aim is to race 5k faster.

In that case, I would think* the focus would be on both more reps and shorter recoveries, but that doesn't mean you should just exclude faster reps entirely

*Not a coach

RayCun

For 5k training, you could start with
400 x 8 @ 5k pace with 150% recovery (80 seconds/rep = 120 seconds recovery)
and build up rep distance and number until you're covering 5k @ 5k pace
4 x 8, 6 x 6, 8 x 5, 4 x 10, 6 x 8 and so on

Krusty_Clown

+1. I don't think you should overlook rep length when doing 5k training. While you may need to do some 400m (and shorter) reps at faster than 5k pace, lengthening the reps at target pace is an important component of race readiness. Have a look at Magness' 5k plan for ideas on how to structure some of these sessions. The plan itself is aimed at high-mileage athletes, but the structure/progression should lend itself to runners at any level.

kennyb3

28064212 wrote: »

In one session, yes. But there's nothing stopping you from aiming for faster reps next week, and more reps the week after, and shorter recoveries the week after that.

Yeah, I could mix it up but i guess I want to know the benefits of why? And what's most efficient (greatest return per session) for improvement. As if on say the 3rd week I'm shortening recoveries and it isn't actually contributing to gain - I'm just repeating the week before.

28064212 wrote: »

In that case, I would think* the focus would be on both more reps and shorter recoveries, but that doesn't mean you should just exclude faster reps entirely

*Not a coach

Thanks for input

Myles Splitz

kennyb3 wrote: »

Did 8 *400m (87 - 93 secs per rep) with 2 mins rest last night. First session in ages.

Given the paces and recovery that is a perfect early training cycle 1 mile paced session (assuming you are in about 6 min mile shape)

kennyb3 wrote: »

Wondering what's the best thing to do in terms of repeating it once a week:

- try to run on average each rep slightly faster; or
- shorten recovery; or
- increase number of reps

What does each specifically achieve?

If you are running these at 1500/1 mile pace this is a complementary session that being used to rep economy and anaerobic pathways. Do not adjust the pace or number of reps until the effort levels have decreased at the pace. Increase the pace in relation to your improved fitness levels which will become apparent in racing/ other training

Drop the recovery by 15 seconds every 2-4 weeks if you plan on keeping this as a staple part of your training program and is a good and simple progression of training.

If you wish to increase the number of reps you will need to adjust the recovery and intensity (3k-5k pace with 1/3-1/2 recovery). This would be more 5k specific in terms of energy pathways.

kennyb3 wrote: »

Running more reps - I assume that builds speed endurance? But how far do you take it? 10, 12, 16 reps?

This should be proportional to mileage. I have seen as high as 20-30 being prescribed (normally to marathon runners running north of 140 mpw top end)

kennyb3 wrote: »

Is there any benefit to shorter recovery?

Definitely as said recovery is one way to manipulate stress for long term progression. shouldn't be done until fitness indicates the requirement for further adaptations unless you are decreasing intensity (as mentioned previously)

kennyb3 wrote: »

So all in all which of the 3 to pick and why?

Depends on the athlete's individual strengths and weakness's. Strength and economy are generally two of the biggest issues for non elite runners so either will most likely yield benefits, just a matter of which one is the best bang for buck.

kennyb3

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

+1. I don't think you should overlook rep length when doing 5k training. While you may need to do some 400m (and shorter) reps at faster than 5k pace, lengthening the reps at target pace is an important component of race readiness. Have a look at Magness' 5k plan for ideas on how to structure some of these sessions. The plan itself is aimed at high-mileage athletes, but the structure/progression should lend itself to runners at any level.

Thanks Krusty I guess that kind of leads on to what I'm getting at/trying to figure out;

- I rant 8*400m last night (3,200m)

- Should I be looking at making this up to 4,800 over time (12 reps) or running the 8 faster.

- I'll mix up rep length too in time, I guess keeping it at 400m makes it easier to guage my body (both during and after in terms of feel & recovery) and also progress. Hence trying to keep it somewhat simple for now.

kennyb3

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Given the paces and recovery that is a perfect early training cycle 1 mile paced session (assuming you are in about 6 min mile shape)

I've never ran a mile race.

As background I've run 18.30 for 5k but closer to 20mins for 5k at present (mainly been running base for few months now after nearly a year of infrequent training - wife had twins :eek:). So not sure where that sits in terms of pace?

Myles Splitz wrote: »

If you are running these at 1500/1 mile pace this is a complementary session that being used to rep economy and anaerobic pathways. Do not adjust the pace or number of reps until the effort levels have decreased at the pace. Increase the pace in relation to your improved fitness levels which will become apparent in racing/ other training

Thanks, yeah i'd plan to repeat for few weeks before running more reps/faster as I want to keep risk of injury lower and wait till my body adapts.

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Drop the recovery by 15 seconds every 2-4 weeks if you plan on keeping this as a staple part of your training program and is a good and simple progression of training.


If you wish to increase the number of reps you will need to adjust the recovery and intensity (3k-5k pace with 1/3-1/2 recovery). This would be more 5k specific in terms of energy pathways.

Both point above are what I was interested in

Myles Splitz wrote: »

This should be proportional to mileage. I have seen as high as 20-30 being prescribed (normally to marathon runners running north of 140 mpw top end)



Definitely as said recovery is one way to manipulate stress for long term progression. shouldn't be done until fitness indicates the requirement for further adaptations unless you are decreasing intensity (as mentioned previously)



Depends on the athlete's individual strengths and weakness's. Strength and economy are generally two of the biggest issues for non elite runners so either will most likely yield benefits, just a matter of which one is the best bang for buck.

Thanks for all the input.

dna_leri

For a beginner ("first session in ages") 5K runner - I would say you want to get used to running at race pace.
Start with current race pace (20mins=96s /400m).
First you should be able to do 12 at that pace off about 2 mins recovery.
Then work towards your target pace (18:30 = 90s/400m).
Now you can add a few extra reps (up to 15 total) and reduce your recovery (towards 1 min).

Train for the race you want to run, don't worry too much about energy pathways, they will take care of themselves, it's all basically aerobic anyway.

kennyb3

dna_leri wrote: »

For a beginner ("first session in ages")

Ouch - I've been running a few years. I totally take your point though I am effectively beginning again.

dna_leri wrote: »

5K runner - I would say you want to get used to running at race pace.
Start with current race pace (20mins=96s /400m).
First you should be able to do 12 at that pace off about 2 mins recovery.
Then work towards your target pace (18:30 = 90s/400m).
Now you can add a few extra reps (up to 15 total) and reduce your recovery (towards 1 min).

Train for the race you want to run, don't worry too much about energy pathways, they will take care of themselves, it's all basically aerobic anyway.

Really appreciate that input - I defo wouldn't have been able for 12 last night anyway - 10 at a push. I'll do 8 next week and possibly try 10 in 3/4 weeks time.

dna_leri

kennyb3 wrote: »

Ouch - I've been running a few years. I totally take your point though I am effectively beginning again.



Really appreciate that input - I defo wouldn't have been able for 12 last night anyway - 10 at a push. I'll do 8 next week and possibly try 10 in 3/4 weeks time.

You have already done 8 but they were at around your mile pace (c90s).
Slow them down to 96s and do 10-12 for more specific training for 5K.