Lets talk about the drag "ban" at the Scottish pride event.

Links234

So, this has been doing the rounds just about everywhere, my facebook feed has had a lot of people freaking out about it, and with good reason too! Everyone is going "OH ****!" and basically going into damage control mode, because this was a decision made so as not to offend trans people... Yeah. Appropriate Deus Ex meme:



I wanted to get the ball rolling on this topic before anyone else came along, because there's a lot of blame being flung at transgender folks and we're all going "Whoah, hang on a minute!" and if there's one thing I want people to take away from this thread is that we agree, this is stupid. I think it's ridiculous and I don't support it. I would hope that that didn't need saying, but in case it did, I wanted to be absolutely clear on the issue.

However, I would also like to point out that this story is being heavily sensationalized. A lot of people seem to think that this is the main Glasgow Pride, but it's not, it's a separate thing entirely called "Free Pride Glasgow" that is an anti-capitalist alternative because pride has become too commercialized, the whole even sounds like an absolute barrel of laughs as it is, so keep that in mind. And also, they didn't really ban drag (hence the quotes in the thread title) they just aren't having any drag performance at their event. It's a significant distinction, and one I think that needs pointing out, a lot of the news stories surround this are just seriously editorializing here.

But I want to seriously make the point that this is not something transgender people are in support of, we don't want to see drag queens banned from pride, we are (on the whole at least, I really can't speak for everyone) not offended by drag, and if some are offended, they are far from the majority. I apologise if I'm really labouring the point, I just want to be absolutely clear on this. The whole thing reminds me of something I was reading a while ago about a college that banned crossdressing at a halloween party because it may offend trans people, something I thought that was incomprehensibly stupid. Halloween can be one of the only times when it's acceptable for people to publicly crossdress, and for a lot of people who are still in the closet that may be the only time they're comfortable enough to explore things. Banning crossdressing in that or any other situation is a disaster!

Policing anyone's gender expression is just wrong.

BuffyBot

There is sensitivity and there is over-sensitivity.

This falls firmly into the latter.

But then the type of people driving this are the kind of people that drive me insane, regardless of gender or sexuality.

J_E

The kind of people who go ahead with stuff (in a small minority and not necessarily gender non-conforming at all) like this are the kind of people who while appealing to be people to be more open with new gender identities and types of people, are obsessed with labelling themself every 'correct' term possible and telling people who and what they can and can't be, you can find them on Tumblr and such, usually they need to insist they are X Y Z and all of the rest, and seem to do nothing but concern troll, snipe at anyone who doesn't follow 'the rules' and just enable more isolation and segregation from people who are trying to see on their level. It's exclusivity wrapped up in a cheap facade, and I think it's really bad that it's gained legitimate traction in a few cases, really embarrassing to see adults behaving like that. Even the idea that cisgender drag is generally misogynistic and too horrible for people to watch? Complete irony and an insult to the art. RuPaul gets it wrong on a number of levels but he nailed it when he said that these group of people are so busy policing terms and being insulted that they've forgotten what it's all about.

I do think it's a shame that what could have been a positive safe space or a spotlight for gender nonconforming queens & kings was handled in such a dire way.

Links234

I think it also shows a problem with people getting offended on other people's behalf and how they can get it so very wrong.

wonderfulname

Links234 wrote: »

I think it also shows a problem with people getting offended on other people's behalf and how they can get it so very wrong.

Definitely, I'm aware enough of the super safe space anarchist queer type movements and now and then they do overshoot the mark trying to accommodate groups they don't necessarily understand, I'm still waiting to see the line "TW: human experience" crop up on my facebook for how vaguely warned some seem to think people should be over content.

The unfortunate thing is there is generally some genuine topic of interest somewhere underneath that has been misconstrued, bloated and inflamed to such a degree it can no longer be discussed, I don’t really know what it is here, cause I can't stick out much reading on this one, but wouldn't it be great if people just talked about gender presentation and respect, rather than all the giving out.

Drag makes me uncomfortable, only because I'm afraid someone would have the bright idea I should do it, I really shouldn't, I don’t even know what would be drag and what wouldn't, but I can really enjoy other peoples drag personas and how they don't affect me in the slightest.

Bannasidhe

I had really hoped we had moved beyond this type of policing in order to 'protect' from possible 'offense'. But sadly it seems not...

What this whole bruhaha reminds me of is waaaaay back in the 80s when there was a (un)healthy lesbian feminist separatist (or fesbianist as I liked to call it) groove going on. I, as a hormone riddled young dyke was once taken to task for - unconsciously - watching a lovely bottom walk past. I was guilty apparently of objectifying a wombyn's body - I responded with a hearty F Off and stop policing my sexuality I have had enough of the Catholic Church doing that - I ain't taking it from them and I ain't taking it from you.

Moved to London and behold there was war there because the SM Dykes were banned from the Lesbian Pride Parade (which took place the day ( I think) before the main Gay pride). SM Dykes - apparently - perpetuated violence against women and were offensive and potentially upsetting to some. The upshot was a sanitised Lesbian Pride March (no leather :P ) and the most wonderful collection of leather dykes on Bikes lead out the main Pride March. Lesbian Pride died a death shortly thereafter.

This policing BS continued with idiocies like women's clubs banning leather in case #someone got offended. One particular club in Sheffield had the misfortune to try and prevent myself and a friend from going in as we were wearing leather jackets - look on their faces when I said it was purely a race thing because I'm Irish and my friend is Black (at which point she kissed her teeth and twirled her dreadlocks). The looks on the faces of the terribly middle class white English women was hysterical as they desperately tried to work out the calculations on the possible offense-a-meter. I deserve an Oscar for not laughing. We got in. Free.

We have enough pressure to conform to other people's notions of what is and is not acceptable and enough attempts to force us to conform to other people's notions of correct expression of our individual identities without allowing internal policing to take hold.

HamsterFace

I don't like drag queens, they're annoying and like a bad 70s comic act, any parade is better without them in my opinion

Bannasidhe

HamsterFace wrote: »

I don't like drag queens, they're annoying and like a bad 70s comic act, any parade is better without them in my opinion

I don't like bald men. They are over testosteroned bad Vin Diesel wannabes and any parade is better without the sun bouncing off their waxed domes.


See - we can all make stupid, sweeping, insulting generalisations.

Here is another one.

I don't like gays. They are whingy and think they are entitled. Why the hell should they have a Parade anyway. Normal people don't get a parade.

How about

I don't like women. Fish. Should be making sandwiches.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

they didn't really ban drag (hence the quotes in the thread title) they just aren't having any drag performance at their event. It's a significant distinction, and one I think that needs pointing out, a lot of the news stories surround this are just seriously editorializing here.

reminds me of a certain Paddys day parade...

jobbridge4life

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't like bald men. They are over testosteroned bad Vin Diesel wannabes and any parade is better without the sun bouncing off their waxed domes.


See - we can all make stupid, sweeping, insulting generalisations.

Here is another one.

I don't like gays. They are whingy and think they are entitled. Why the hell should they have a Parade anyway. Normal people don't get a parade.

How about

I don't like women. Fish. Should be making sandwiches.

Okay whilst I don't agree at all with the poster you quoted and further agree with that it was generalising the comparison between being a drag queen and gay people is just not appropriate one is a performance the other is living an breathing.

As for the ban I think it is nonsense and I hate the way the world seems to be turning with this claptrap about cultural appropriation. Its divisory and ghettoizing.

Bannasidhe

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Okay whilst I don't agree at all with the poster you quoted and further agree with that it was generalising the comparison between being a drag queen and gay people is just not appropriate one is a performance the other is living an breathing.

As for the ban I think it is nonsense and I hate the way the world seems to be turning with this claptrap about cultural appropriation. Its divisory and ghettoizing.

Sweeping generalisations are still sweeping generalisations. And having a go is still having a go.

The 'I don't like gay people one... normal people don't have parades' isn't actually mine. It was a 'point' made on one of the many many Marriage equality threads...
and it was a stupid 'point'. As stupid as I hate drag queens as if every single drag queen in the history of drag is interchangeable as they are, in fact, the same person.

I do wonder, however, how that poster feels about drag kings...

jobbridge4life

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sweeping generalisations are still sweeping generalisations. And having a go is still having a go.

The 'I don't like gay people one... normal people don't have parades' isn't actually mine. It was a 'point' made on one of the many many Marriage equality threads...
and it was a stupid 'point'. As stupid as I hate drag queens as if every single drag queen in the history of drag is interchangeable as they are, in fact, the same person.

I do wonder, however, how that poster feels about drag kings...

I know it wasn't yours Bannasidhe, I remember you well from the trenches of those same marriage equality threads and I agree that is stupid but I maintain that it is still qualitatively different to a similar comment regarding gay people.

Saying 'I don't like mime artists they are dumb' is stupid but it isn't the same as saying 'I don't like deaf people'. IMHO.

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

deaf people can be dumb too.....

wakka12

HamsterFace wrote: »

I don't like drag queens, they're annoying and like a bad 70s comic act, any parade is better without them in my opinion

I personally don't mind them..but I think they send a bad message to straight people, just average, non flamboyant people. I hate to think we should change ourselves to appease the straight majority but really I honestly think drag queen make pride events very off putting for a lot of straight people and create more problems than are necessary. We should be trying to show we are normal and not something to be feared by straight people..not trying to distance ourselves from the straight community. And if acting a tad more conservatively and less flamboyant means better acceptance for our minority group then so be it.

jobbridge4life

wakka12 wrote: »

I personally don't mind them..but I think they send a bad message to straight people, just average, non flamboyant people. I hate to think we should change ourselves to appease the straight majority but really I honestly think drag queen make pride events very off putting for a lot of straight people and create more problems than are necessary. We should be trying to show we are normal and not something to be feared by straight people..not trying to distance ourselves from the straight community. And if acting a tad more conservatively and less flamboyant means better acceptance for our minority group then so be it.

Couldn't disagree more strongly. Wakka12, and I say this with respect, 'read your history books Kim!'. IF it wasn't for the brave and bold drag queens of the Stonewall Inn, we more than likely would be scrawling these messages to one another on bathroom walls or on the dark net like paedophiles. Appeasement and supplication are what keeps people in closets not what sets people free. Be proud to a be freak because afterall that is what we are on the most basic level.

Bannasidhe

jobbridge4life wrote: »

I know it wasn't yours Bannasidhe, I remember you well from the trenches of those same marriage equality threads and I agree that is stupid but I maintain that it is still qualitatively different to a similar comment regarding gay people.

Saying 'I don't like mime artists they are dumb' is stupid but it isn't the same as saying 'I don't like deaf people'. IMHO.

Ah - but keep in mind the people who make such comment often believe being gay is a choice. Actually, I know quite a few people who are in long term same sex relationships who will insist they chose to be 'gay', now we can argue that they are 'deluding' themselves (and ohhh how I have....) but that is what they believe/feel and who are we to say they don't know their own feelings.

Mime artists may be dumb - we really have no way of knowing during the performance... :P

Bannasidhe

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Couldn't disagree more strongly. Wakka12, and I say this with respect, 'read your history books Kim!'. IF it wasn't for the brave and bold drag queens of the Stonewall Inn, we more than likely would be scrawling these messages to one another on bathroom walls or on the dark net like paedophiles. Appeasement and supplication are what keeps people in closets not what sets people free. Be proud to a be freak because afterall that is what we are on the most basic level.

Exactly.
Pride Marches aren't for straight people to feel comfortable with - they were started to send a very clear 'We're Here. We're Queer. Get Used to it!' message to straight people.

A world without flamboyance sounds like a living hell to me.

pl4ichjgy17zwd

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Ah - but keep in mind the people who make such comment often believe being gay is a choice. Actually, I know quite a few people who are in long term same sex relationships who will insist they chose to be 'gay', now we can argue that they are 'deluding' themselves (and ohhh how I have....) but that is what they believe/feel and who are we to say they don't know their own feelings.

I normally believe that bolded bit to be true always, but, IMO, gay people lending any credence to a choice in their sexuality leads to crap like reparative therapy.

Now if you're bi/pansexual but choose to only date one gender because of *insert whatever reason*, that's one thing, but I think we know pretty surely by now that people don't choose their attractions.

As for kowtowing to the straight community during Pride - can't get on board with that at all. That's not what it was ever about.

P_1

Ridiculous decision but to be honest it is being run by a bunch of the worst kind of SJWs (the type who consider any sort of fun to be verboten). No great loss tbh

Bannasidhe

Linda Some Flower wrote: »

I normally believe that bolded bit to be true always, but, IMO, gay people lending any credence to a choice in their sexuality leads to crap like reparative therapy.

Now if you're bi/pansexual but choose to only date one gender because of *insert whatever reason*, that's one thing, but I think we know pretty surely by now that people don't choose their attractions.

As for kowtowing to the straight community during Pride - can't get on board with that at all. That's not what it was ever about.

We are one the same page with this.

Yes - I have no right to try and tell another person what they feel about themselves isn't true (unless it's my nephew who feels he can sing - he can't. It's awful.) Especially since I grew up being told it's a 'phase' and I would feel differently when I grew up. I'm 50 now and still in the phase...

But I have met a great many people - usually women - who will insist they are in a relationship with another woman because all men are bas*ards and it's a political choice. That doesn't sit comfortably with me tbh... but that might be exactly what they are doing...


But back on topic - I love the existence of Drag. I think it is important that drag exists. I think we need drag performers of both genders to mess with gender stereotypes and make us laugh at ourselves. I think drag artists are brave.

I think some drags acts are crap, some can cross lines of taste and in lieu of talent go to a 'ist' place but some comedy acts are crap, some can cross lines of taste and in lieu of talent go to an 'ist' place- that doesn't mean we should 'not engage' any comedy acts.

HamsterFace

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't like bald men. They are over testosteroned bad Vin Diesel wannabes and any parade is better without the sun bouncing off their waxed domes.


See - we can all make stupid, sweeping, insulting generalisations.

Here is another one.

I don't like gays. They are whingy and think they are entitled. Why the hell should they have a Parade anyway. Normal people don't get a parade.

How about

I don't like women. Fish. Should be making sandwiches.

I knew someone would imply homophobia.

I don't like drag queens because they are irritating because, in order to be a drag queen, you where too much make up and are loud and kind of act like your out of a pantomime.

No problem with trans, or cross dressers but don't like drag queens. Don't like macho men either for that matter.

Bannasidhe

HamsterFace wrote: »

I knew someone would imply homophobia.

I don't like drag queens because they are irritating because, in order to be a drag queen, you where too much make up and are loud and kind of act like your out of a pantomime.

No problem with trans, or cross dressers but don't like drag queens. Don't like macho men either for that matter.

I never implied homophobia so you can put that drama Llama back in the cage.

I stated -very clearly - that making sweeping, insulting, generalisations about a group of people is stupid.

A drag queen is a cross dresser who happens to do so in a performance capacity. Still technically cross-dressing.
I think you are also confusing drag queens with Panto Dames - who, technically are also cross-dressers who happen to do so in a performance capacity.

Brendan O Carroll is Dame not Drag.
Panti is Drag.
Danny la Rue was drag and she never wore too much make-up, was loud or acted like she was in a panto - unlike Brendan O Carroll.

The fact that you are not fond of drag is fine - the fact that you believe they shouldn't be allowed in Pride Parades isn't - if it wasn't for the Drag Queens (and the Diesel Dykes) there wouldn't even be Pride Parades.

jobbridge4life

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Actually, I know quite a few people who are in long term same sex relationships who will insist they chose to be 'gay', now we can argue that they are 'deluding' themselves (and ohhh how I have....) but that is what they believe/feel and who are we to say they don't know their own feelings.

If it wasn't for the homophobes and reparitive therapy I'd be more than happy for all gay people to declare it was a choice. After all it would be no more a legitimate choice than heterosexuality.

As an aside what gender are these individuals?

Bannasidhe

jobbridge4life wrote: »

If it wasn't for the homophobes and reparitive therapy I'd be more than happy for all gay people to declare it was a choice. After all it would be no more a legitimate choice than heterosexuality.

As an aside what gender are these individuals?

Mostly females but I have met the odd man if you pardon the expression.

HamsterFace

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I never implied homophobia so you can put that drama Llama back in the cage.

I stated -very clearly - that making sweeping, insulting, generalisations about a group of people is stupid.

A drag queen is a cross dresser who happens to do so in a performance capacity. Still technically cross-dressing.
I think you are also confusing drag queens with Panto Dames - who, technically are also cross-dressers who happen to do so in a performance capacity.

Brendan O Carroll is Dame not Drag.
Panti is Drag.
Danny la Rue was drag and she never wore too much make-up, was loud or acted like she was in a panto - unlike Brendan O Carroll.

The fact that you are not fond of drag is fine - the fact that you believe they shouldn't be allowed in Pride Parades isn't - if it wasn't for the Drag Queens (and the Diesel Dykes) there wouldn't even be Pride Parades.

I'll put it to you this way, I wouldn't like to be in a train carriage full of drag queens.

I also wouldn't like to be in a train carriage full of people in premiership Jerseys.

Just find those type of people to be irritating, you don't have to like everyone. It's OK.

And I don't care if they're in pride, but I'd prefer not personally as I don't see what they add from a civil rights perspective. As you said yourself, they're performance characters.

wonderfulname

HamsterFace wrote: »

I knew someone would imply homophobia.

I don't like drag queens because they are irritating because, in order to be a drag queen, you where too much make up and are loud and kind of act like your out of a pantomime.

No problem with trans, or cross dressers but don't like drag queens. Don't like macho men either for that matter.

Nobody implied homophobia.

Your impression of drag queens does not have to be true in the least, but out of curiosity how do you feel about drag kings?

Bannasidhe

HamsterFace wrote: »

I'll put it to you this way, I wouldn't like to be in a train carriage full of drag queens.

I also wouldn't like to be in a train carriage full of people in premiership Jerseys.

Just find those type of people to be irritating, you don't have to like everyone. It's OK.

Would you like to ban people in premiership jerseys from marching in Pride parades too?

Are rugby jerseys ok?

Can we ban people with whistles from Pride Parades? I fecking hate whistles.

Links234

Bannasidhe wrote: »

if it wasn't for the Drag Queens (and the Diesel Dykes) there wouldn't even be Pride Parades.

And trans women! Don't forget Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson

pl4ichjgy17zwd

Links234 wrote: »

And trans women! Don't forget Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson

If you did that, you'd be doing exactly what the upcoming Stonewall movie is doing!

HamsterFace

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Would you like to ban people in premiership jerseys from marching in Pride parades too?

Are rugby jerseys ok?

Can we ban people with whistles from Pride Parades? I fecking hate whistles.

If I was organizing the parade and didn't feel they were what the parade was about then I would say so.

But it's not my parade, and I don't really care, just giving my opinion that I don't see why these OTT performance are always tied in with civil rights pertaining to homosexuality.

Anyway, have a nice evening.

pl4ichjgy17zwd

https://freeprideglasgow.wordpress.com/2015/07/22/free-pride-to-welcome-drag-performers/

The original decision was made because many trans members of Free Pride have had negative experiences with drag acts veering towards racism, misogyny and transphobia; the lack of contact with the drag community contributed.

We made a mistake, and we apologise.

J_E

HamsterFace wrote: »

If I was organizing the parade and didn't feel they were what the parade was about then I would say so.

But it's not my parade, and I don't really care, just giving my opinion that I don't see why these OTT performance are always tied in with civil rights pertaining to homosexuality.

Anyway, have a nice evening.

Think you do a great disservice to the broad scope that drag covers. A comedy queen is just one type, and you know you are just doing pure generalisation, not even in a decent way.

wakka12 wrote: »

I personally don't mind them..but I think they send a bad message to straight people, just average, non flamboyant people. I hate to think we should change ourselves to appease the straight majority but really I honestly think drag queen make pride events very off putting for a lot of straight people and create more problems than are necessary. We should be trying to show we are normal and not something to be feared by straight people..not trying to distance ourselves from the straight community. And if acting a tad more conservatively and less flamboyant means better acceptance for our minority group then so be it.

Just no. It's bad enough what heteronormativity is doing inside gay circles as it is, some real internalised homophobia going on both in and out of the scene at the moment. Really bad thing to aspire to above... as if anyone with half a brain can't differentiate and use common sense. Why are people so averse to a bit of flair and drama, be it in makeup or not? Why does it have to be their problem if some people are willfully ignorant?

Linda Some Flower wrote: »

https://freeprideglasgow.wordpress.com/2015/07/22/free-pride-to-welcome-drag-performers/

The original decision was made because many trans members of Free Pride have had negative experiences with drag acts veering towards racism, misogyny and transphobia; the lack of contact with the drag community contributed. We made a mistake, and we apologise.

Hah, damage control.

Bannasidhe

HamsterFace wrote: »

If I was organizing the parade and didn't feel they were what the parade was about then I would say so.

But it's not my parade, and I don't really care, just giving my opinion that I don't see why these OTT performance are always tied in with civil rights pertaining to homosexuality.

Anyway, have a nice evening.

This blog sums it up well

So you feel uncomfortable with drag acts? Well, newsflash darling, that’s the point of most drag acts. That’s what it means to be Queer. To buck the trend. To be different. To offend other people’s sensibilities. To challenge political norms. To demand rights, not to demand other people are banned because you – and only you – are right. To confront orthodoxy, not impose a new one.

http://www.kaleidoscot.com/sometimes-im-ashamed-not-proud-queer-community-3967

Back atcha with the wish for a nice evening.

Bannasidhe

Links234 wrote: »

And trans women! Don't forget Sylvia Rivera and Marsha P. Johnson

Absolutely.

wonderfulname

HamsterFace wrote: »

...I don't see why these OTT performance are always tied in with civil rights pertaining to homosexuality.

Because loud people tend to shout first, so you'll frequently find them front and centre in rights movements, and because drag is very very gay.

LGBT rights are where they are today because of the people who couldn't assimilate, not because of the people who so desperately want everyone to keep it down for fear of offending sensibilities, I could have sworn that was partly the point of it all.

Annasopra

This poppped into my facebook feed tonight and really touches on some of this discussion

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/colin-walmsley/the-queers-left-behind-ho_b_7825158.html

Rick_

Whether you like drag queens or not, they still deserve our respect and admiration.

Marsha P. Johnson, a famous NY drag queen, was one of the first to fight back during the Stonewall Riots.

Titti Von Tramp, a Belfast drag queen, was out on the street on the opening night of The Kremlin in Belfast after the place wes evacuated due to a bomb threat. She got all the press photos and attention, cavorting on police vehicles and encouraging everyone to party on the street instead, in a defiant message of "up yours - try as you might, we won't be intimidated".

They may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it takes balls for a man to be a drag queen and fair play to them for doing it.

Vojera

My gender has never been an issue for me. I can't say I've ever strongly felt "yep, being a woman is great, it's exactly right for me", or "I'm so glad I'm not a man, that wouldn't fit me at all." I'm a bit indifferent about it, to be honest. It's not that I'm genderqueer or anything, it's just that it has never even been on my radar of things to worry about.

That's my roundabout way of saying that I don't know how it feels to be trans or to place any importance on gender identity. So I guess that if issues around gender identity are important to you I can sort of see how a misunderstanding of drag might feel like drag artists are making fun of something that is a sensitive subject for you. Deciding not to book any drag acts, and to specifically mention cisgender drag artists as being unsuitable, seems like a huge overreaction, though.

I also didn't like this specific quote: "many trans members of Free Pride have had negative experiences with drag acts veering towards racism, misogyny and transphobia". That makes it seem like drag is a hotbed of offensive assholes, which it isn't. I have certainly experienced misogyny from gay men who view women as irrelevant to their lives. It doesn't make me say "hey, I'd better stay away from gay men" though, because it's obviously a minority. If there are issues with individual drag artists then surely not booking *those artists* is the way to go?

Lyaiera

To be honest, I don't think this went far enough. I say we ban everyone from Pride parades. They're silly jovial events with far too many people having fun in a large in-it-together atmosphere, with dancing and colour and whistles and loudness, and ridiculous shoes that defy logic. It makes it very hard to sit and be miserable.

If there must be a pride parade I volunteer to follow behind someone on a tandem bike with the other cyclist playing a sad trombone sound. There will be at most two rainbow flags. I will wear sensible black flats before changing into my converse and I might put on eyeliner. Me and the cyclist will drink heavily (at the easily available seats) and mourn our lost youth. The trombonist may now wail or play a lamenting keen. We can have curry chips afterwards. We will walk home in the rain.

If you have a tandem bike or can play the sad trombone noise (must bring your own trombone,) and are suitably dour and anti-fun please apply. If you get the first round we could see about being friends (I need friends, Waaah! I'm so lonely. )