Tour De France 2015 - Rest Day

YeahOK

Tuesday sees the second of two rest days in this years tour. It's a day that could make a huge difference in the outcome of this race. Riders get to throw their feet up and have a few beers, sort out that overdue ESB bill, maybe nip home and cut the grass and make a start on the list that the wife has had stuck to the fridge since July 4th.

The likelihood is that Peter Sagan will finish second today.....:D

wanderer 22

When you're with the OH finishing second is a good thing

petethedrummer

YeahOK wrote: »

It's a day that could make a huge difference in the outcome of this race. Riders get to throw their feet up and have a few beers, sort out that overdue ESB bill, maybe nip home and cut the grass and make a start on the list that the wife has had stuck to the fridge since July 4th.

That's what all the teams except Sky do.

Darkglasses

colm18 wrote: »

When you're with the OH finishing second is a good thing

However, its more likely his room-mate is Roman Kreuziger :eek:

Cee-Jay-Cee

YeahOK wrote: »

The likelihood is that Peter Sagan will finish second today.....:D

Apparently he's the Bridesmaid at a wedding today.

MPFG

Good time to assess best and worst points so far

For me best was Steve Cummings win . And not because he was with a African team per se but because of the way he rode that last climb and cornered that final bend. Brilliant tactics

Worst point has been the shocking lack of form of some of the main contenders
Contador visibly tired (wonder what Tinkov will say now about a rider racing 3 GTs) , Nibali overweight (it has been reported) and in a foul mood on the Astana bus (but whole team not looked great) . AG2R missing in action. Cannondale Garmin esp Talansky , Pinot (though he did have bad luck) , Kwaitkowski very poor form as well. Purito (has won stages) but he was supposed to be going for GC

oF course some have had crashes like TenDam & Kelderman

gordongekko

MPFG wrote: »

Good time to assess best and worst points so far

For me best was Steve Cummings win . And not because he was with a African team per se but because of the way he rode that last climb and cornered that final bend. Brilliant tactics

Worst point has been the shocking lack of form of some of the main contenders
Contador visibly tired (wonder what Tinkov will say now about a rider racing 3 GTs) , Nibali overweight (it has been reported) and in a foul mood on the Astana bus (but whole team not looked great) . AG2R missing in action. Cannondale Garmin esp Talansky , Pinot (though he did have bad luck) , Kwaitkowski very poor form as well. Purito (has won stages) but he was supposed to be going for GC

oF course some have had crashes like TenDam & Kelderman

Is contadors issue not the fact he won the giro but all the racing he did after it when he should have been resting and training.

retalivity

Kwiatowski is on course to win the overall combativity prize, and purito never had a hope against the top 4 but still has 2 stage wins, wouldn't consider either of those a disappointment really.

MPFG

retalivity wrote: »

Kwiatowski is on course to win the overall combativity prize, and purito never had a hope against the top 4 but still has 2 stage wins, wouldn't consider either of those a disappointment really.

I would if you were hoping to be high on GC as both were

MPFG

Surely Sagan should win overall combativity prize

Decuc500

High points so far are seeing Greipel winning sprints, though I’d like to see Degenkolb or Kristoff finally take one. Also Cummings mugging of Bardet and Pinot was the most exciting stage finish.

Talansky’s form is disappointing. I had hopes of at least a top 10 finish. Also I fear Valverde will make the podium. Just want him to go away at this stage.

TheBlaaMan

gordongekko wrote: »

Is contadors issue not the fact he won the giro but all the racing he did after it when he should have been resting and training.

Contador only raced the Route de Sud, a three day event with one tough stage, between the Giro and Tour.

Macy0161

petethedrummer wrote: »

That's what all the teams except Sky do.

Direct Debit for the lecky bill - marginal gains!

gordongekko

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

Contador only raced the Route de Sud, a three day event with one tough stage, between the Giro and Tour.

Had it in my head that he did the dauphine as well.

Brian?

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

Contador only raced the Route de Sud, a three day event with one tough stage, between the Giro and Tour.

Aye. I don't think that was te problem. I just don't think it's possible to do the Giro-Tour double anymore.

It'd be great if Contador proved me wrong by taking 4 minutes tomorrow, Chiapucci style, but I can't see him taking any time back on Froome.

happytramp

Brian? wrote: »

It'd be great if Contador proved me wrong by taking 4 minutes tomorrow, Chiapucci style

If this happens Valverde or TJVG will probably bury themselves chasing and give Froome a free ride.

neris

Weepsie wrote: »

No poll?

im sure if you give the mods an idea of what should be on a "Rest Day" poll they might put one up

MPFG

Macy0161 wrote: »

Direct Debit for the lecky bill - marginal gains!

I can atest to that...just now tried to check in on line with Ryan Air . Must have used up 700 watts on frustration alone

petethedrummer

Macy0161 wrote: »

Direct Debit for the lecky bill - marginal gains!

Sky are doing their transfer in a luxury Volvo superbus. AG2R.... Renault Espace. It all adds up.

MPFG

Poll could be what is going to happen next in the race. Just an idea

E.g. Sagan to pass the peloton on the descent of col du Allos
Froome to win on Alp' D Huez
Valverde to hang on to the podium & not work for Quintana
TJ Van Garderen to attack on the Col du la Croix de Fer blowing the peloton apart
Dan Martin to win from a breakaway

wanderer 22

Or guessing what non-Sky teams are doing for the rest day

*Pie eating competition
*Running a marathon
*Transferring teams kit to start of next stage using front and back panniers

YeahOK

petethedrummer wrote: »

Sky are doing their transfer in a luxury Volvo superbus. AG2R.... Renault Espace. It all adds up.

At least AG2R will have a bit of craic and a great story to tell. The super bus would be liking watching re-run episodes of the Antiques Roadshow. I'd say there is zero craic in the Sky team what with Froome being the life and soul of any party:roll eyes:

Marginal gains pfft!

MPFG

Maybe non-Sky teams are on the beer (and wine) and stuff they got from Paolini

el tel

All you jokers at Sky's expense are all just haters and if you're not careful Beasty will be all over your arses like a dose of pinworm :pac::P

dastardly00

https://twitter.com/petosagan/status/623451346373582848

MPFG

Well there is evidence afterall for SKY restday superiority


Daniel Winther ‏@DWinther 1h1 hour ago
Michael Valgren and Michael Rogers eats at McDonalds on the second rest day #tdf2015 #jptouren #tdfdk pic.twitter.com/VsyqcWPlc8

dastardly00

Andre Greipel is flat out!

https://twitter.com/AndreGreipel/status/623449350467907585

Beasty

Weepsie wrote: »

No pole?

Was thinking about posting a picture of the one Geraint Thomas hit yesterday...

Anyway, I've now added one you can all vote on

YeahOK

MPFG wrote: »

Valverde to hang on to the sit into the podium & get a lift 100 meters up the road in it & not work for Quintana

Fixed that post for you.....

bryangiggsy

Froomes power number from Stage 10.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/racing/tour-de-france/what-can-we-learn-from-chris-froomes-power-data-183677

columbus_66

I'd love to see Nico Roche do a turn on the front! I haven't seen him do any yet, he always seems to get blasted before it's his turn!

And the faces he is pulling?

dastardly00

I haven't seen this posted before, but here is Paul Kimmage's article in the Sindo from Sunday.

Nothing too controversial about it, but he he gives a good overview of Team Sky's evolution throughout it's existence and the emergence of Chris Froome.

The interview ended. We shook hands and I offered him some advice: "Start every press conference you do for the next year with an invitation to the journalists to ask questions about doping. And sit down with Veyer and do everything he asks."
He did not take that advice, and this week it came back to bite him . . .

Mint Sauce

Beasty wrote: »

Was thinking about posting a picture of the one Geraint Thomas hit yesterday...

Anyway, I've now added one you can all vote on

Just seen his crash from yesterday! Fuuuuuuuuccc.....

How is he?

mcgratheoin

Looks like Carl is a shoe in for a podium spot so

bryangiggsy

dastardly00 wrote: »

I haven't seen this posted before, but here is Paul Kimmage's article in the Sindo from Sunday.

Nothing too controversial about it, but he he gives a good overview of Team Sky's evolution throughout it's existence and the emergence of Chris Froome.

What will it take for Paul Kimmage to change his mind on doping in the tour?
Or has that ship sailed?? I fear the latter.

Kavrocks

MPFG wrote: »

Well there is evidence afterall for SKY restday superiority


Daniel Winther ‏@DWinther 1h1 hour ago
Michael Valgren and Michael Rogers eats at McDonalds on the second rest day #tdf2015 #jptouren #tdfdk pic.twitter.com/VsyqcWPlc8

I disagree Tinkoff are doing the smart thing and getting the calories in when they can.

mcgratheoin

bryangiggsy wrote: »

What will it take for Paul Kimmage to change his mind on doping in the tour?
Or has that ship sailed?? I fear the latter.

Take your pick from these

• Riders going slower than the known dopers from several years ago
• Several teams looking equally strong
• No team with a domestique in the top 10 after the initial mountain stages
• GC contenders following a relatively predictable career progression
• Transparency from teams regarding longtitudinal data releases (e.g. Pinot)
• Honesty and less hypocrisy from teams that promise not to use TUEs and then renege on their promises
• Less apathy from riders about convicted dopers returning to the sport (check out what T&F athletes say about Gatlin)

bryangiggsy

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Take your pick from these

• Riders going slower than the known dopers from several years ago
• Several teams looking equally strong
• No team with a domestique in the top 10 after the initial mountain stages
• GC contenders following a relatively predictable career progression
• Transparency from teams regarding longtitudinal data releases (e.g. Pinot)
• Honesty and less hypocrisy from teams that promise not to use TUEs and then renege on their promises
• Less apathy from riders about convicted dopers returning to the sport (check out what T&F athletes say about Gatlin)

I think Froome s file release today goes a long way to proving point no 1

mcgratheoin

bryangiggsy wrote: »

I think Froome s file release today goes a long way to proving point no 1

Meh, the estimates done by various commentators are pretty accurate (they've been spot on when anyone else has released power data) so this data isn't anything that people aren't already aware of. The problem that Kimmage and others have with Sky (and other teams, let's not kid ourselves that Astana wouldn't be getting the brunt of the suspicion if Nibali was leading) from a transparency point of view is that their initial response to everything is to attack. When someone estimates power data, they come out and rubbish it as an estimate, despite the fact that they know it's pretty accurate. I've posted numerous times here on what Sky have done wrong and some of what they could do to put things right, but they don't seem to want to do any of it, or to even admit that they have a responsibility towards the fans and the sport to do it. Jingoistic UK articles in the media don't do anything to convince long time campaigners like Kimmage that anything has changed. When the yellow jersey says

This isn't the Wild West that it was 10-15 years ago.

my initial reaction is that there has been only 1 year in the past 15 where there hasn't been a doper in the top 10 of the Tour (Andreas Kloden was 11th though), and only 3 from those 15 where there hasn't been a doper on the podium. How can anyone dismiss doping as a problem from a decade ago when 5 out of the top 10 from 2009 are dopers?
This series is a good summary of the suspicion around cycling. It's a pretty balanced view of why questions are still being asked of all cyclists, not just the Sky riders and it also addresses why we shouldn't be so quick to jump to doping allegations.

I posted this over two years ago and my opinion sadly hasn't changed one bit.

The nub of the issue is that we had a generation of cyclists who were able to beat drug tests with impunity and the current generation of cyclists are telling us that there's more testing now so it must be cleaner. There is nothing being said now by these cyclists that wasn't said by Armstrong, Ullrich, Vino, Pantani et al in the aftermath of the Festina affair. What Cav and Wiggins need to understand is that cycling fans have done this dance a dozen times already. We don't trust the riders, we don't trust the DS's, we don't trust the testing and we most certainly don't trust the UCI. If the riders want the repetitive questions to go away, then they need to begin rebuilding that trust.

MPFG

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Take your pick from these

• Riders going slower than the known dopers from several years ago
• Several teams looking equally strong
• No team with a domestique in the top 10 after the initial mountain stages
• GC contenders following a relatively predictable career progression
• Transparency from teams regarding longtitudinal data releases (e.g. Pinot)
• Honesty and less hypocrisy from teams that promise not to use TUEs and then renege on their promises
• Less apathy from riders about convicted dopers returning to the sport (check out what T&F athletes say about Gatlin)

Point 1 Today Froomes data demonstrates this on STAGE 10 Tour de France 2015. But it is an arbitrary marker as it does not take in to account continued advancement in sport and human ability. Once no one thought a sub 4 minute miles was humanly possible . This is not a sustained credible argument

Point 2 ...no teams ever look equally strong in any sport especially when some have more money to buy better riders and when the others have top riders not in form . But over the course of the last few Grand Tours Astana, SKY , TCS , Movistar have all looked equally strong and weak in turn

Point 3 . Having a strong domestique happened last year with Fuglsang & Astana and the year before wth Kreuziger & TCS but there were no hail of accusations as this year. It can happen if a top dom is in great from and has happened many times without all the vitriol and accusations in other teams.
Top doms can step up, afterall they a super domestiques. Also many of these top doms have a bad following year so if doping you would think they could maintain this form

Point 3 ..Athletes in other sports have had set backs that reflect in their progression including illness and early training disadvantages. Not a credible criteria when a rider is not at his strongest for GTs untill 28 to 32

Point 4 . More data can and will be released but even today with Froomes data the same naysayers are disbelieving or knocking the stats and reading all kinds of non existent issues into it . There are too many voices with pseudo science who are not interested in the facts only in ways to knock certain teams and riders
Point 5 Honesty and hypocrisy works across the spectrum with 'fans' and governing bodies and is not the preserve of (a) team(s). Maybe fans could stop idolizing Pantani for instance (while some simultaneously castigating SKY)

Point 6 Its not for riders to police the sport. If UCI hand out a sanction and then a rider serves that sanction and is free to return to the sport why would a team mate send them to Coventry. The governing body sets the rules about who is and isn't eligible to ride and self policing riders can lead to all kinds of issues. And no one in any work place wants to 'govern' over colleagues. Unworkable solution for riders and teams. Either a rider is sanctioned to be there or he is not


So I guess no. Kimmage & others like him will continue to castigate the sport as that message is their bread and butter

happytramp

MPFG wrote: »

So I guess no. Kimmage & others like him will continue to castigate the sport as that message is their bread and butter

You don't really believe that Kimmage is doing this for financial reasons do you? That is beyond cynical. The guy lost his job and almost ruined himself financially trying to hi-light the problems in the sport.

MPFG

happytramp wrote: »

You don't really believe that Kimmage is doing this for financial reasons do you? That is beyond cynical. The guy lost his job and almost ruined himself financially trying to hi-light the problems in the sport.

Not financial ....kudos & raison d'etre

And you accuse me of being beyond cynical :rolleyes:

happytramp

MPFG wrote: »

Not financial ....kudos & raison d'etre

And you accuse me of being beyond cynical :rolleyes:

In my defense the phrase 'bread and butter' does refer to (as per the Cambridge English dictionary) "a job or activity that provides you with the money you need to live"

It wasn't really that cynical of me was it?

MPFG

columbus_66 wrote: »

I'd love to see Nico Roche do a turn on the front! I haven't seen him do any yet, he always seems to get blasted before it's his turn!

And the faces he is pulling?

Not sure you will see that as SKY are using him as a domestique earlier in the stages to cover breaks , etc

MPFG

happytramp wrote: »

In my defense the phrase 'bread and butter' does refer to (as per the Cambridge English dictionary) "a job or activity that provides you with the money you need to live"

It wasn't really that cynical of me was it?

Of course not

I suppose I am a little forceful as I think SKY are being attacked unfairly. No doubt there are problems with the sport that need improvement but its not the fault or responsibility of one team as current social media chat seem to convey

happytramp

MPFG wrote: »

I suppose I am a little forceful as I think SKY are being attacked unfairly.

You're not wrong there. I had been heavily in the anti-sky camp (for sporting entertainment reasons) but the whole urine/spitting/booing stuff has definitely lessened my resolve. That's horrific stuff for anyone to have to endure...(Also hard not to be impressed by Thomas after yesterday)

petethedrummer

colm18 wrote: »

Or guessing what non-Sky teams are doing for the rest day

*Pie eating competition
*Running a marathon
*Transferring teams kit to start of next stage using front and back panniers

Many a fine sporting team has had an eating competition.
http://www.joe.ie/sport/irish-soccers-most-memorable-moments-no-19-harry-ramsdens-challenge-1995/36278

odyssey06

If Team Sky were French, spanish or italian I guarantee there would less 90% vitriol and questions coming at them.

DonegalBay

MPFG wrote: »

Point 1 Today Froomes data demonstrates this on STAGE 10 Tour de France 2015. But it is an arbitrary marker as it does not take in to account continued advancement in sport and human ability. Once no one thought a sub 4 minute miles was humanly possible . This is not a sustained credible argument

Point 2 ...no teams ever look equally strong in any sport especially when some have more money to buy better riders and when the others have top riders not in form . But over the course of the last few Grand Tours Astana, SKY , TCS , Movistar have all looked equally strong and weak in turn

Point 3 . Having a strong domestique happened last year with Fuglsang & Astana and the year before wth Kreuziger & TCS but there were no hail of accusations as this year. It can happen if a top dom is in great from and has happened many times without all the vitriol and accusations in other teams.
Top doms can step up, afterall they a super domestiques. Also many of these top doms have a bad following year so if doping you would think they could maintain this form

Point 3 ..Athletes in other sports have had set backs that reflect in their progression including illness and early training disadvantages. Not a credible criteria when a rider is not at his strongest for GTs untill 28 to 32

Point 4 . More data can and will be released but even today with Froomes data the same naysayers are disbelieving or knocking the stats and reading all kinds of non existent issues into it . There are too many voices with pseudo science who are not interested in the facts only in ways to knock certain teams and riders
Point 5 Honesty and hypocrisy works across the spectrum with 'fans' and governing bodies and is not the preserve of (a) team(s). Maybe fans could stop idolizing Pantani for instance (while some simultaneously castigating SKY)

Point 6 Its not for riders to police the sport. If UCI hand out a sanction and then a rider serves that sanction and is free to return to the sport why would a team mate send them to Coventry. The governing body sets the rules about who is and isn't eligible to ride and self policing riders can lead to all kinds of issues. And no one in any work place wants to 'govern' over colleagues. Unworkable solution for riders and teams. Either a rider is sanctioned to be there or he is not


So I guess no. Kimmage & others like him will continue to castigate the sport as that message is their bread and butter

That article by Kimmage was spot on imo. SKY set themselves up to be something that they have clearly failed to be. They promised a lot but delivered little and because of those blatant failures, they have lost the trust of many, so when they do release stuff, a lot of people are cynical about it. They shot themselves in the foot by hiring a load of dodgy people who the informed cycling fan could have told you were dodgy and then pleaded ignorance.

Giant-Alpecin, now that is a team who have gone about it in a more correct manner. They hired from mostly outside the sport, their DS is one of the few former riders at the team and came forward and admitted to his past completely on his own free will. They rarely hire riders from dodgy teams and usually develop their own talent. They might not have SKYs money or results but are a 100 times more transparent.

Everyone in pro cycling is also a hostage to the sports history and not just the Armstrong era. As someone who was following the sport when EPO arrived on the scene, the exact same reasons for improvements were trotted out, better coaching, diet, organisation etc, etc. Cycling was derided as being so far behind other sports in terms of correct training etc. It is funny to look back now and realise that the current guys are still not matching the times from the peak EPO era 94-98. EPO saw the sport improve by about 30 years in the space of a few but hey it was all about advances in sports science you know.

When EPO arrived, rider transformations became the norm, guys who were average or good suddenly becoming superstars in their late 20s/30s, they were a dime a dozen. Chiappucci, Bugno, Indurain, Rominger, Riis, Gianetti and countless others I could name.

The only comparable transformations that have happened in the last few years are Wiggins, Froome and now Thomas, all SKY(could include Landa at the Giro I suppose). It is not about being cynically negative, it is about seeing something and saying to yourself, wait a second we have seen this before. Maybe it is legit but because of what has went before, only a fool would not have doubts or wish to at least ask questions.

SKY clearly don't like questions.

MPFG

Quintana & Valverde are going to the Vuelta
And now SKY are saying Froome main aim also for the double at the Vuelta

I guess when you think about it (on the bike at least) Froome has had a relatively easy Tour, his team doing the lions share of the work . Easier than in 2013 and definitelyy easier than Contador;s Giro where he had tough opposition and an absent team

ThisRegard

odyssey06 wrote: »

If Team Sky were French, spanish or italian I guarantee there would less 90% vitriol and questions coming at them.

I disagree completely.