Landlord taking part of deposit for Irish Water

fluffo

Hi everyone.
Sorry if this was asked before but I've searched through the forum and can't really see the answer quickly.

I am moving out of an apartment next month and my landlord has emailed me to say that since I have not registered with Irish Water (and do not have any intention to before leaving) that they will be taking the amount of money owed to Irish Water from my security deposit.

As far as I have researched, I don't think this can be done legally? Perhaps I am very wrong but if anybody has specific information I would be hugely thankful.

Here is a link to an article on July 3rd which seems to state that the deposit can not be used by landlord's to pay for Irish Water bills:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/landlords-cant-use-deposits-for-water-bills-340525.html

Who were you expecting to pay your water bill?

athtrasna

You are required to pay Irish Water for the water you used from January to moving out date. Not registering does not remove that responsibility. You can't just skip out on it. The landlord holds a deposit in case of damage to property or outstanding bills. The Irish Water bill is outstanding and can be deducted from your deposit. By not registering you've increased your liability as you're not entitled to the credit in September.

lima

Not the landlord, that's theft

Yawns

lima wrote: »

Not the landlord, that's theft

How so?

Deposits are there to cover damage beyond reasonable wear & tear as well as bills. Irish Water whether you like it or not, is issuing bills for water usage. The OP has used the service and a bill has been issued and thus not paid. It's being deducted from his deposit.

Why should the LL have to sort out the bill for IW because the tenant doesn't want to pay. If you think he should, you wouldn't mind paying my broadband bill for me would you?

Lux23

The landlord is well within his rights to hold onto a portion of your deposit to cover any outstanding bills, this includes Irish Water.

Youngblood.III

The landlord can only holdback what's owed nothing else...how is he calculating what's owed?

shamrock2004

I had to pay it too. My LL asked me in January if I had registered - so I went ahead and did it. I didn't want the landlord turning around to me saying they'd with-hold part of the deposit for not paying the bill - so I just paid it, as much as I disagreed with doing so...

athtrasna

Youngblood.III wrote: »

The landlord can only holdback what owed nothing else...how is he calculating what's owed?

Easily, it's a flat rate this year.

Youngblood.III

athtrasna wrote: »

Easily, it's a flat rate this year.

So only pro-rata for half a year approx?

athtrasna

Youngblood.III wrote: »

So only pro-rata for half a year approx?

Pro-rata for dates occupied. The flat rate is easy to divide right down to the day.

Satriale

What has a deposit to do with bills? IW wont chase the landlord, they will chase the tenant, the landlord is obliged to tell them the tenants name, not pay the bill for them.

From Ptrb .
Tenants are entitled to a refund of the deposit paid at the commencement of the tenancy where there is no rent owing in respect of the tenancy and there is no damage to the dwelling beyond normal wear and tear at the end of the tenancy. Landlords are required to refund the deposit promptly less any deductions in respect of outstanding rent and damage in excess of normal wear and tear.

pwurple

Ugh. This sort of tenant is why I build all the bills into the rent, and pay them myself directly. Who'd be dealing with this sort of sh1te.

wowy

A lot of standard leases (I obviously don't know if the OP's lease has the following) would include a clause that the tenant is obliged to pay all rates, utilities etc incurred during their occupation. Water is sometimes explicitly mentioned (even though it was pointless until recently), but regardless not paying is a breach of a term of the lease. Withholding of the amount owed from the deposit could be argued to be a reasonable approach by the LL to remedy the breach.

gordongekko

Satriale wrote: »

What has a deposit to do with bills? IW wont chase the landlord, they will chase the tenant, the landlord is obliged to tell them the tenants name, not pay the bill for them.

From Ptrb .
Tenants are entitled to a refund of the deposit paid at the commencement of the tenancy where there is no rent owing in respect of the tenancy and there is no damage to the dwelling beyond normal wear and tear at the end of the tenancy. Landlords are required to refund the deposit promptly less any deductions in respect of outstanding rent and damage in excess of normal wear and tear.

Also from ptrb

The payment of water charges will be further facilitated through regulatory measures to be brought before the Oireachtas, that do not require court proceedings. Pending establishment of the PRTB deposit protection scheme, these will include a requirement for landlords to retain a tenant deposit until the tenant provides evidence that water charges due have been paid. The landlord will merely hold the deposit until the tenant provides the requisite evidence of payment of water charges; the landlord will not be required to pay to Irish Water any outstanding water charges directly out of the deposit. Following establishment of the deposit protection scheme, tenants will have to demonstrate that water charges due have been paid before the deposit can be returned.

Satriale

gordongekko wrote: »

Also from ptrb

The payment of water charges will be further facilitated through regulatory measures to be brought before the Oireachtas, that do not require court proceedings. Pending establishment of the PRTB deposit protection scheme, these will include a requirement for landlords to retain a tenant deposit until the tenant provides evidence that water charges due have been paid. The landlord will merely hold the deposit until the tenant provides the requisite evidence of payment of water charges; the landlord will not be required to pay to Irish Water any outstanding water charges directly out of the deposit. Following establishment of the deposit protection scheme, tenants will have to demonstrate that water charges due have been paid before the deposit can be returned.

current rules? or future?

fluffo

fluffo wrote: »

Hi everyone.
Sorry if this was asked before but I've searched through the forum and can't really see the answer quickly.

I am moving out of an apartment next month and my landlord has emailed me to say that since I have not registered with Irish Water (and do not have any intention to before leaving) that they will be taking the amount of money owed to Irish Water from my security deposit.

I hope you will be informing your next LL also of the fact you wont register and not be looking for a reference from your current LL.

Over time as people move out of rentals and into others I foresee a big increase in the number of people registering and paying the water charges as LL's simply wont rent their places to people who refuse. when people are faced with being out on the street or living in a hostel they will be more than happy to pay the water charge.

Gatling

Abby Angry Watch wrote: »

. when people are faced with being out on the street or living in a hostel they will be more than happy to pay the water charge.

Then people dig there heels in and refuse to budge and keep paying there rents would make for interesting court cases .

fluffo

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I obviously got the wrong end of the stick. I assumed Irish Water was a charge for a person and if you leave accommodation and move on elsewhere, the charge stays with you as a person to your next accommodation. I obviously don't want the landlord paying for my water usage if the usage was metered.

My new landlord has no problems about this so it's all good there. I'll just work out the rate that the current landlord must deduct from the deposit and let them fire away so they are not liable for charges themselves.

Wheelsonthebus

fluffo wrote: »

Hi everyone.
Sorry if this was asked before but I've searched through the forum and can't really see the answer quickly.

I am moving out of an apartment next month and my landlord has emailed me to say that since I have not registered with Irish Water (and do not have any intention to before leaving) that they will be taking the amount of money owed to Irish Water from my security deposit.

As far as I have researched, I don't think this can be done legally? Perhaps I am very wrong but if anybody has specific information I would be hugely thankful.

Here is a link to an article on July 3rd which seems to state that the deposit can not be used by landlord's to pay for Irish Water bills:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/landlords-cant-use-deposits-for-water-bills-340525.html

He has no right to take money from you on behalf of anyone else. There is a facility for Landlords to pass the details of their tenants to Irish Water and release themselves from any liability. This is what he should do.

Wheelsonthebus

fluffo wrote: »

Thanks for the replies everyone.

I obviously got the wrong end of the stick. I assumed Irish Water was a charge for a person and if you leave accommodation and move on elsewhere, the charge stays with you as a person to your next accommodation. I obviously don't want the landlord paying for my water usage if the usage was metered.

My new landlord has no problems about this so it's all good there. I'll just work out the rate that the current landlord must deduct from the deposit and let them fire away so they are not liable for charges themselves.

You're right- the bill stays with the person not the property. Landlords have the facility to pass a tenants details to Irish Water and release themselves from liability

fluffo

Wheelsonthebus wrote: »

You're right- the bill stays with the person not the property. Landlords have the facility to pass a tenants details to Irish Water and release themselves from liability

Oh ok that would be better. Is this something as simple as the landlord sending on my details to Irish Water? Or is it optional for landlords and the other option for them is to take it from the deposit? Thanks

Wheelsonthebus

This is taken from the Irish Water website:

http://www.water.ie/customer-registration/landlords-and-tenants/

Owners of multiple properties, including Local Authorities, are now invited to confirm their property details with Irish Water. If the property is occupied, landlords can now provide names of their tenants. Irish Water will then engage directly with the occupants and provide them with an opportunity to confirm their details. This will ensure they receive the correct bill and may avail of the Government’s €100 Water Conservation Grant, details of which will be announced by Government later this year.

Completing this process ensures that landlords can avoid receiving a bill for services they are not using themselves. It will also ensure that the tenants are billed correctly and are eligible for the €100 Water Conservation Grant.

I’m a landlord and my tenant has not registered with Irish Water – what can I do to ensure the account is set up and liability for water services charges lies with my tenant?

As the landlord of the property, you can contact Irish Water and provide the name of your tenant. Irish Water will then write to your tenant to invite them to register. This will ensure that you are no longer liable for water services charges whilst the tenant continues to be the occupant of the property.

lima

Sorry but the Landlord cannot steal money from the deposit to pay for Water charges.

https://www.water.ie/help-centre/questions-and-answers/im-a-landlord-and-my-tena/?category=billing-&-charges

"As the landlord of the property, you can contact Irish Water and provide the name of your tenant. Irish Water will then write to your tenant to invite them to register. This will ensure that you are no longer liable for water services charges whilst the tenant continues to be the occupant of the property."

Sorry but this infers that the landlord is liable unless they contact Irish Water with the name of the tenant.

To get rid of their liability, the landlord simply has to give the tenants name.

HOWEVER:

http://www.prtb.ie/tenants/helpful-info/irish-water-charges-q-a

It appears that soon the landlord WILL be able to withhold part of a deposit until the tenant provides the requisite evidence of payment of water charges.


As of right now, it would be deemed theft.

Wheelsonthebus

fluffo wrote: »

Oh ok that would be better. Is this something as simple as the landlord sending on my details to Irish Water? Or is it optional for landlords and the other option for them is to take it from the deposit? Thanks

Will you give me €100 for your last ESB bill and I promise I'll pass it on to the ESB? :pac:

Hollister11

The Landlord is within his rights to deduct this outstanding bill from your deposit. He isn't going to pay it for you. So weather you agree with the charge are not, if you are renting property it will come out of your deposit.

There is also no point in not paying the charge even if you buy a house. They will take it out of your wages, social welfare, or pension. You can't avoid it.
Simples!

fluffo

lima wrote: »

It appears that soon the landlord WILL be able to withhold part of a deposit until the tenant provides the requisite evidence of payment of water charges.


As of right now, it would be deemed theft.

Ok so it's all in a bit of a limbo right now. It's currently such a messed up system.. they really didn't think this one through.
I guess i'll ring the landlord again and let them know they can pass the liability over to me and it's not their concern after that then. It's up to me to pay as Irish Water will then have my details.

lima

By the way, and it's clear that there are many landlords on this thread, I am moving from my rental very soon so I recently called up Irish Water and registered. I never got an application pack in the post so I just ended up doing it myself. I bought an apt and am moving in soon so the account will just simply move to my new place. All done.

My landlord kindly let me use my deposit as last months rent so I want to ensure everything is paid up (and the place clean as a button) before I move out, due to his excellent land-lording over the time I've been there

lima

Hollister11 wrote: »

The Landlord is within his rights to deduct this outstanding bill from your deposit. He isn't going to pay it for you. So weather you agree with the charge are not, if you are renting property it will come out of your deposit.

There is also no point in not paying the charge even if you buy a house. They will take it out of your wages, social welfare, or pension. You can't avoid it.
Simples!

No, it depends on whether bills are stated on the lease.

He is not within his right.

Wheelsonthebus

Hollister11 wrote: »

The Landlord is within his rights to deduct this outstanding bill from your deposit. He isn't going to pay it for you. So weather you agree with the charge are not, if you are renting property it will come out of your deposit.

There is also no point in not paying the charge even if you buy a house. They will take it out of your wages, social welfare, or pension. You can't avoid it.
Simples!

Simply not true.

Satriale

Hollister11 wrote: »

The Landlord is within his rights to deduct this outstanding bill from your deposit. He isn't going to pay it for you. So weather you agree with the charge are not, if you are renting property it will come out of your deposit.

There is also no point in not paying the charge even if you buy a house. They will take it out of your wages, social welfare, or pension. You can't avoid it.
Simples!

Hollister, have you some proof for that? I can see anything in the current rules that allow for it and it would be interesting to know if it was true.

Gatling

Gatling wrote: »

Then people dig there heels in and refuse to budge and keep paying there rents would make for interesting court cases .

Only a matter of time before it will be taken from peoples salary/dole. Its already been suggested and it will happen there is no doubt about it.

fluffo wrote: »

Ok so it's all in a bit of a limbo right now. It's currently such a messed up system..

Its quite a simple system if you just registered and paid the water charge.

fluffo

Abby Angry Watch wrote: »

Its quite a simple system if you just registered and paid your water charge.

So simple that no matter how little water you use, you still pay a fixed rate? So simple that it is nothing about water conservation as you still pay a fixed rate? Funny.
It should be a simple system.. but Ireland does not currently have the means or finance to set a simple metered system in place.

athtrasna

Off topic posts have been deleted

Wheelsonthebus

athtrasna wrote: »

Off topic posts have been deleted

It was entirely relevant actually.

As relevant as idle speculation in regards to what will or wont happen in the future, but I see that post was allowed to remain.

Also my post was intended to be humorous as you could clearly see.

fluffo

fluffo wrote: »

So simple that no matter how little water you use, you still pay a fixed rate? So simple that it is nothing about water conservation as you still pay a fixed rate? Funny.

A temporary measure until water meters are installed (something that would happen a lot faster if installers weren't being prevent from doing their job by a gang of idiots). The 100 euro grant is designed to compensate for this.

Also income tax was reduced in the last budget to balance off against the water charges a major fact which is totally over looked by those who refuse to pay the charges.

Hollister11

Abby Angry Watch wrote: »

A temporary measure until water meters are installed (something that would happen a lot faster if installers weren't being prevent from doing their job by a gang of idiots). The 100 euro grant is designed to compensate for this.

Also income tax was reduced in the last budget to balance off against the water charges.

That's an understatement. Its been an ridiculous epidemic.

Satriale

Hollister11 wrote: »

That's an understatement. Its been an ridiculous epidemic.

Any proof for your statement re landlords rights Hollister?

Hollister11

Satriale wrote: »

Any proof for your statement re landlords rights Hollister?

The water charge is a utility bill. If you didn't pay your esb, gas bills ect, they would be taken out of your deposit as they are outstanding bills. If you do no pay your water bill, this bill is in fact outstanding and can be taken from your deposit.

http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/how-to-get-your-deposit-back/

Satriale

Hollister11 wrote: »

The water charge is a utility bill. If you didn't pay your esb, gas bills ect, they would be taken out of your deposit as they are outstanding bills. If you do no pay your water bill, this bill is in fact outstanding and can be taken from your deposit.

http://www.threshold.ie/advice/ending-a-tenancy/how-to-get-your-deposit-back/

Thanks, no mention of IW there but seems to be correct for gas and electricity provided they are in the landlords name.
The Minister in charge of IW seems to disagree with your assessment though.


From The Examiner
Environment Minister Alan Kelly has warned that property owners cannot withhold tenants’ deposits or deduct parts of them because of disputes or concerns about water bills being left unpaid.

TheDoc

fluffo wrote: »

So simple that no matter how little water you use, you still pay a fixed rate? So simple that it is nothing about water conservation as you still pay a fixed rate? Funny.
It should be a simple system.. but Ireland does not currently have the means or finance to set a simple metered system in place.

If you are in a metered property, you pay the lowest cost, be it the metered rate or the flat rate. So if you are using less water and your meter reflects that, you are charged the lower rate. If you go over it, you are charged the flat rate, which is the same for everyone.

OP you mentioned that you weren't registering for IW, so maybe its possible that the Landlord did (to avail of the grant) and because it is in the LL name, that is why the payment is being withheld?

Personally I think its a bit cheeky for tenants to take a stand against IW, regardless of their disagreements with it. Your in rented accommodation, where a landlord is responsible to ensure the utilities are coming into the property correctly and as expected.

Satriale

TheDoc wrote: »

If you are in a metered property, you pay the lowest cost, be it the metered rate or the flat rate. So if you are using less water and your meter reflects that, you are charged the lower rate. If you go over it, you are charged the flat rate, which is the same for everyone.

OP you mentioned that you weren't registering for IW, so maybe its possible that the Landlord did (to avail of the grant) and because it is in the LL name, that is why the payment is being withheld?

Personally I think its a bit cheeky for tenants to take a stand against IW, regardless of their disagreements with it. Your in rented accommodation, where a landlord is responsible to ensure the utilities are coming into the property correctly and as expected.

I'm open to correction but all the landlord has to do is inform IW of the tenants name and he is absolved of liabilty. Why would you give yourself any grief or hassle with a tenant if you could do that?
It's looking for problems in a business that has enough of them to start with.

listermint

Satriale wrote: »

I'm open to correction but all the landlord has to do is inform IW of the tenants name and he is absolved of liabilty. Why would you give yourself any grief or hassle with a tenant if you could do that?
It's looking for problems in a business that has enough of them to start with.

This entirely.

Surely even these pro charges warriors would be chomping at the bit to hand over tenant information.

It's none of your business to be collecting money for IW the debt attaches to the tenant in this situation. Even the guidelines state that. User pays.

TheDoc

Satriale wrote: »

I'm open to correction but all the landlord has to do is inform IW of the tenants name and he is absolved of liabilty. Why would you give yourself any grief or hassle with a tenant if you could do that?
It's looking for problems in a business that has enough of them to start with.

Yeah all going perfectly the landlord is perfectly absolved. But that's not always the case.

I know first hand of an apartment I had for a year where the previous tenants seemed to be running every scam known to man, along with dodging just about every bill under the sun. We received mountains of mail frequently, legal letters frequently, and debt collectors at the door, one which ended in an altercation, all down to the previous tenants skipping bills.

It was a headache for me and my GF, and inevitably the landlord. I never bothered him about it or what happened, but every now and again we would have a catchup call and he would mention how he was still dealing with fallout from the previous pair. He also had issues with utilities and having them re-enabled to the apartment. And when I moved in, it wasn't straight forward getting electricity sorted, and took a few calls to sort the situation out(so large was the bill left by the previous tennants).

I could flip it back saying why would a tenant give a landlord any grief?

Satriale

TheDoc wrote: »

Yeah all going perfectly the landlord is perfectly absolved. But that's not always the case.

I know first hand of an apartment I had for a year where the previous tenants seemed to be running every scam known to man, along with dodging just about every bill under the sun. We received mountains of mail frequently, legal letters frequently, and debt collectors at the door, one which ended in an altercation, all down to the previous tenants skipping bills.

It was a headache for me and my GF, and inevitably the landlord. I never bothered him about it or what happened, but every now and again we would have a catchup call and he would mention how he was still dealing with fallout from the previous pair. He also had issues with utilities and having them re-enabled to the apartment. And when I moved in, it wasn't straight forward getting electricity sorted, and took a few calls to sort the situation out(so large was the bill left by the previous tennants).

I could flip it back saying why would a tenant give a landlord any grief?

I'm not saying the landlord is creating grief for the tenant, I'm saying he is drawing it on himself, when the government have effectively given him more protection than he would have from any other utility bill.
I wouldnt want anyone on the phone to me night and day hassling me about E60 when all i had to do was give his name to IW, no tenant could have reason to argue with that.

ted1

Satriale wrote: »

Thanks, no mention of IW there but seems to be correct for gas and electricity provided they are in the landlords name.
The Minister in charge of IW seems to disagree with your assessment though.


From The Examiner
Environment Minister Alan Kelly has warned that property owners cannot withhold tenants’ deposits or deduct parts of them because of disputes or concerns about water bills being left unpaid.

Most leases stipulate that all utilities must be paid and will be taking out if deposit if not. The minister needs to educate himself

Satriale

ted1 wrote: »

Most leases stipulate that all utilities must be paid and will be taking out if deposit if not. The minister needs to educate himself

Leases aren't laws. Again, open to contradiction, from my reading, unless the bill is in the landlords name he has no entitlement to withhold money. I'd ask any landlord reading some of the "advice" on this thread to get some independently before withholding a tenants deposit for this reason.

There seems to be a smattering of "I'll sort the protestors" from a certain class of landlord in this country, it would be more in their line keeping their "feelings" in check and focus on running their business professionally.
The government have said that once they pass the name of their tenant on to IW they are not liable, what more could you ask for? Unless you are looking to make extra unpaid work for the sake of spite.

The_Conductor

Moderator note

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Yawns

Satriale wrote: »

Leases aren't laws..

Correct, but they are private contracts between two parties. As long as it doesn't supersede the rights of either party. Now most standard leases actually do specify water charges in them and have done for many years as they are copied over from UK & EU standard leases.

So the two parties have agreed to pay any and all outstanding utilities and bills with water most likely being specifically mentioned. Failure to do so will result in deposit or part thereof being retained to cover any outstanding fees. So the LL would be entitled to hold part of it.

That would be a standard lease. We have no way of knowing if the OP has a lease that omits that kind of clause but the vast majority of leases have it in.

I'm in this house about 2 months. There was a mix up with the IW at first as they had it in my partner's name but should have been in mine as she won't be here for the next year or so. In order to do it properly we had to close the account in her name and open in mine. She received a bill for exactly €4.98 so they do calculate how much you can owe on a pro rata basis

Graham

Satriale wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Most leases stipulate that all utilities must be paid and will be taking out if deposit if not. The minister needs to educate himself

Leases aren't laws

Leases may not be laws in themselves, they are however legally binding contracts to which two parties have agreed to abide by.

Grolschevik

Graham wrote:

Leases may not be laws in themselves, they are however legally binding contracts to which two parties have agreed to abide by.

That said, illegal clauses in leases, or clauses that seek you to abrogate your rights, are not enforceable. Just for general information rather than a comment on the specific issue...