Legal stance on undertaking

marno21

This morning, I was travelling on the N22 approaching the Ballincollig bypass DC stuck behind two vehicles doing approx 80km/h. When the dual carriageway began, these two vehicles moved into the overtaking lane and continued at 80km/h. However, I stayed in the driving lane and began accelerating up to the speed limit, which was 100km/h and became 120km/h shortly down the road.

About a car length behind the two vehicles the vehicle at the front quickly moved into the driving lane and I had to brake in order to avoid an accident, before I moved out into the overtaking lane and quickly overtook both vehicles.

Who's in the wrong here? Technically I was well within my rights to drive at the limit in the driving lane as there was no vehicles ahead of me in my lane, e.g. no one to overtake, e.g. no need to be in the overtaking lane

Second Toughest in_the Freshers

Everybody's in the wrong, but since nothing actually happened, nobodys in the wrong.

Could well be wrong here, but do the rules of the road not differentiate between 'undertaking' and 'passing on the left'?

Atlantic Dawn

A dash cam would help your case.

Shep_Dog

marno21 wrote: »

This morning, I was travelling on the N22 approaching the Ballincollig bypass DC stuck behind two vehicles doing approx 80km/h. When the dual carriageway began, these two vehicles moved into the overtaking lane and continued at 80km/h. However, I stayed in the driving lane and began accelerating up to the speed limit, which was 100km/h and became 120km/h shortly down the road.

You were in the wrong. Passing on the inside is only permitted in slow moving traffic or if the vehicle in front is turning right. 80kph is is not 'slow moving'. The intention of the regulation is to permit passing on the inside of congested traffic.

In any case, passing on the inside or outside is subject to to the manouvre being safe. You would be reasonably expected to anticipate the behaviour of other drivers, even incorrect behaviour by them.

stevenmu

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Could well be wrong here, but do the rules of the road not differentiate between 'undertaking' and 'passing on the left'?

I believe the rules of the road only refer to passing on the left, and that it's wrong (except for some defined circumstances). Undertaking is the term many people use for it, but I don't think its used in the RoR.

hoodie6029

How does it work if I'm in lane 1 do 100kph and a car in lane 2 slows down for no reason to 90kph? Should I brake and match his speed? Or should I just maintain my speed?

phill106

hoodie6029 wrote: »

How does it work if I'm in lane 1 do 100kph and a car in lane 2 slows down for no reason to 90kph? Should I brake and match his speed? Or should I just maintain my speed?

You keep on in your own lane then, you aren't undertaking, you are just driving in your correct lane.

Del2005

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

A dash cam would help your case.

A dash cam would get the OP in trouble. Showing them passing on the left will help how?

Del2005

phill106 wrote: »

You keep on in your own lane then, you aren't undertaking, you are just driving in your correct lane.

Nope you have to slow down or pull into the overtaking lane and hope the morom wakes up and pulls into the driving lane, you can't pass on the left unless for the few exemptions in the ROTR.

K.Flyer

Del2005 wrote: »

Nope you have to slow down or pull into the overtaking lane and hope the morom wakes up and pulls into the driving lane, you can't pass on the left unless for the few exemptions in the ROTR.

Are you serious??
So we all have to slow down to match the speed of the muppet in lane 3 because he / she has decided to drive at 70 kph.
That makes no sense at all.

Atomic Pineapple

hoodie6029 wrote: »

How does it work if I'm in lane 1 do 100kph and a car in lane 2 slows down for no reason to 90kph? Should I brake and match his speed? Or should I just maintain my speed?

Pull in behind them in the over taking lane and wait for them to pull into the driving lane is technically the correct thing to do.

phill106

Del2005 wrote: »

Nope you have to slow down or pull into the overtaking lane and hope the morom wakes up and pulls into the driving lane, you can't pass on the left unless for the few exemptions in the ROTR.

Sounds crazy. What happens if he stops? or drives at 1 mile an hour in the outside lane?

Atomic Pineapple

phill106 wrote: »

Sounds crazy. What happens if he stops? or drives at 1 mile an hour in the outside lane?

You can pass on the left in slow moving traffic. I'd consider 1 mile an hour to be slow.

K.Flyer

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

Pull in behind them in the over taking lane and wait for them to pull into the driving lane is technically the correct thing to do.

So you are in lane 1, muppet is in lane 3, both travelling at 90 kph with traffic behind you. You are 1 car length behind and that car decides to slow down.
Are you honestly telling us that you would brake, cross over to lane 3, then wait until they move over to lane 2 or lane 1 before proceeding on at your chosen speed.

phill106

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

You can pass on the left in slow moving traffic. I'd consider 1 mile an hour to be slow.

I'd consider 80 in a 100 zone to be slow too!

SpaceTime

I usually pull in behind them in the overtaking lane at a safe distance. Flash gently to remind them ...

If that doesn't work flash more aggressively and maybe toot the horn to remind them that they're in the wrong lane.

You'll occasionally get a complete moron who won't budge at all and thinks you're crazy for alerting them to their lane error.

At that stage all you can realistically do is undertake carefully. It's illegal but they're obstructing the overtaking lane.

It's a hard one to call really as doing 80km/h in the overtaking lane of an otherwise clear motorway is basically causing an obstruction.

Staying it it while being gently reminded to move over by oncoming traffic is also deliberately causing an obstruction out of either pig headed behaviour or total lack of driving ability.
Either way, you should be given points!

Atomic Pineapple

K.Flyer wrote: »

So you are in lane 1, muppet is in lane 3, you are 1 car length behind and that car decides to slow down.
Are you honestly telling us that you would brake, cross over to lane 3, then wait until they move over to lane 2 or lane 1 before proceeding on at your chosen speed.

The person in the second overtaking lane isn't supposed to be there, they're supposed to be in the driving lane. I never said that's the best thing to do, I said that's what you're supposed to do.

The two rules combined make sense, only use the overtaking lanes to overtake and then move back into the driving lane and don't pass on the left compliment each other.

Unfortunately people in Ireland don't show enough interest in actually learning how to drive on a motorway and you end up with a cluster****.

Atomic Pineapple

phill106 wrote: »

I'd consider 80 in a 100 zone to be slow too!

It is ambiguous as to what slow moving traffic refers to but realistically we can logically link it to stop/go type speeds like when the M50 becomes a car park as that's what the exception to the rule is for.

I undertake all the time especially on the M50 because you simply have to due to the incompetence of drivers but I am aware that undertaking is also against the rules of the road and I am aware of the dangers in doing so as shown by the car pulling across the OP. IE: Had there been a collision then it would likely have ended up being shared responsibility.

CiniO

marno21 wrote: »

This morning, I was travelling on the N22 approaching the Ballincollig bypass DC stuck behind two vehicles doing approx 80km/h. When the dual carriageway began, these two vehicles moved into the overtaking lane and continued at 80km/h. However, I stayed in the driving lane and began accelerating up to the speed limit, which was 100km/h and became 120km/h shortly down the road.

About a car length behind the two vehicles the vehicle at the front quickly moved into the driving lane and I had to brake in order to avoid an accident, before I moved out into the overtaking lane and quickly overtook both vehicles.

Who's in the wrong here? Technically I was well within my rights to drive at the limit in the driving lane as there was no vehicles ahead of me in my lane, e.g. no one to overtake, e.g. no need to be in the overtaking lane

You were wrong because you were trying to overtake on the left.
Other driver was wrong as well, as he changed lane without giving way to vehicle already on it.

CiniO

hoodie6029 wrote: »

How does it work if I'm in lane 1 do 100kph and a car in lane 2 slows down for no reason to 90kph? Should I brake and match his speed? Or should I just maintain my speed?

You should slow down to match his speed.
I hardly can imagine a reason for person on overtaking lane to suddenly slow down except from in emergency.

CiniO

K.Flyer wrote: »

So you are in lane 1, muppet is in lane 3, both travelling at 90 kph with traffic behind you. You are 1 car length behind and that car decides to slow down.
Are you honestly telling us that you would brake, cross over to lane 3, then wait until they move over to lane 2 or lane 1 before proceeding on at your chosen speed.

Yes, that's correct thing to do.
But it shouldn't be happenening except in emergency.
F.e. vehicle in lane 3 suffers engine failure and therefore this is a reason for him slowing down.
Most important at that stage for him is to safely move to left hard shoulder, and that's why other vehicle should not overtake him on the left.

whomitconcerns

CiniO wrote: »

You should slow down to match his speed.
I hardly can imagine a reason for person on overtaking lane to suddenly slow down except from in emergency.

But they do it anyway cinio...thats the problem. Try driving on teh M50 on a Sunday evening about 9pm...fairly quiet except EVERY week people driving in lane 3 at 90 or so with other 2 lanes empty...and they slow down if you flash them...

I drove in teh left lane the whole way one eveing on cruise control at 100kph. I never had to let it off or move (with undertaking) the whole way from tallaght to the airport. There were cars on the m50,..but all using lanes 2 and 3...not excusing undertaking but..there needs to be some enforcement here.

CiniO

whomitconcerns wrote: »

But they do it anyway cinio...thats the problem. Try driving on teh M50 on a Sunday evening about 9pm...fairly quiet except EVERY week people driving in lane 3 at 90 or so...and they slow down if you flash them...

Well I don't drive on M50 too often, so I don't have to deal with that luckily.
I'm just saying what's the correct thing to do.

whomitconcerns

CiniO wrote: »

Well I don't drive on M50 too often, so I don't have to deal with that luckily.
I'm just saying what's the correct thing to do.

I fully agree with you. But the M50 and N7 would drive you crazy if you wanted to drive 100% legally.

Doolittle51

Atomic Pineapple wrote: »

I undertake all the time especially on the M50 because you simply have to due to the incompetence of drivers but I am aware that undertaking is also against the rules of the road and I am aware of the dangers in doing so as shown by the car pulling across the OP. IE: Had there been a collision then it would likely have ended up being shared responsibility.

I undertake all the the time on the M50 too. It's unavoidable. A prime example, yesterday morning I was the only car in the left lane, there was one car in the middle lane, and 20+ cars in the right lane. I was driving at the speed limit... undertaking everybody. Why the hell would i slow down or change lane?

I've given up flashing lane hoggers, because quite simply, they haven't got a clue how to use a motorway. It's a waste of time. So usually I'll just undertake and not get worked up about it. Often I keep my hand near the horn, ready to blast them out of it if they start to drift towards my lane as I pass. And every so often I beep them to highlight that I had to undertake them. (usually do this if they are driving dangerously slow)

I'd feel really hard done by if the guards ever stop me for this, but that a risk I'm willing to take.

The_Captain

Have you tried tailgating them, flashing your lights, beeping and leaning out the window to scream at them?

Doolittle51

Is that the advice is the ROTR?

whomitconcerns

The_Captain wrote: »

Have you tried tailgating them, flashing your lights, beeping and leaning out the window to scream at them?

doesnt work...if they actually even notice you you usually just get shown the middle finger...

ironclaw

Doolittle51 wrote: »

I undertake all the the time on the M50 too. It's unavoidable. A prime example, yesterday morning I was the only car in the left lane, there was one car in the middle lane, and 20+ cars in the right lane. .

Its getting worse in my opinion. 75% is the desire to 'go fast' in the 'fast lane' and the other 25% is people actually trying to drive properly. I always try if I can to go 1 2 3 3 2 1, and I occasionally notice those doing the same.

However, I think the only way to combat this middle lane hogging is to make lane 3 an express lane at rush hour i.e. You can enter it at any time but only exit at certain exits i.e. Airport , Tallaght, Sandyford. Police the hell out of it like the car pool lanes in the US and hopefully people will get the message. At least lane 3 will be open to those wishing to make a longer hop, keep it flowing, and hopefully those making a shorter hop will 'push' the existing middle traffic into lane 1 where it should belong.

Although, today you will see every country bus in the middle lane dropping revelers to Longitude. And when 'professional' drivers are not following the rules, we have no hope.

sunnysoutheast

whomitconcerns wrote: »

I fully agree with you. But the M50 and N7 would drive you crazy if you wanted to drive 100% legally.

The N7 going southbound towards the Naas "ball" where it goes down from 3 lanes to 2 is like something out of Mad Max. Yesterday evening alone there was a car which undertook all the way down the hard shoulder and then pulled all the way across into lane 3 causing everyone behind to brake. The behaviour of HGVs on that section is often nothing short of criminal.

savagethegoat

Shep_Dog wrote: »

You were in the wrong. Passing on the inside is only permitted in slow moving traffic or if the vehicle in front is turning right. 80kph is is not 'slow moving'. The intention of the regulation is to permit passing on the inside of congested traffic.

In any case, passing on the inside or outside is subject to to the manouvre being safe. You would be reasonably expected to anticipate the behaviour of other drivers, even incorrect behaviour by them.

spot on, you may pass on the left if there are slow moving queues of traffic, and the queue to the right is moving slower than the queue on the left

ironclaw

savagethegoat wrote: »

spot on, you may pass on the left if there are slow moving queues of traffic, and the queue to the right is moving slower than the queue on the left

The issue starts from, and there are pages of debate here, what defines 'slow moving' i.e. A car (or queue of cars) travelling at 80km/h in a 120km/h section would be considered 'slow' relative to the overall speed of the section. However, there may be good reason for them to be there etc. However, to me, and I feel common sense as well, 'slow moving' is congested traffic queues with significant stop / start action. Hence passing on the left is in most cases wrong and unlawful.

Either way, even in traffic queues, is quite dangerous to pass on the left if there is a significant gap ahead of you as you often get queue jumping.

Its an endless debate but the root cause is people being in the wrong lane, which should be addressed far before analyzing the meaning of 'slow moving'

savagethegoat

I think a Judge would say that a car or two cars travelling at 80 in the outside lane does not constitute slow moving traffic.

slimjimmc

savagethegoat wrote: »

I think a Judge would say that a car or two cars travelling at 80 in the outside lane does not constitute slow moving traffic.

Agreed.
Since 1964 a "slow vehicle" is defined as one not capable of reaching 24mph (39km/h) and vehicles not capable of reaching 50km/h are considered too slow to be allowed on a motorway.

While that doesn't define "slow moving traffic" I suggest it gives a good starting point.

joujoujou

Yet another undertaking thread! Yay!

//getting popcorn...

antodeco

I like to think of the very left driving lane on the N7 and M50 as my own personal driving lane.

Please don't draw peoples attention to them driving in the wrong lanes, as that means my own personal lane will become in use by other drivers.

YbFocus

There is another rule out there which states.

"After a period of 2 minutes waiting patiently behind a slow moving, unresponsive vehicle, a driver may use the PIT manoeuvre to facilitate their and other road users progress."

I'd only it were true. I imagine myself doing it all the time to cheer myself up while trying not to kill them.

sunnysoutheast

antodeco wrote: »

I like to think of the very left driving lane on the N7 and M50 as my own personal driving lane.

Please don't draw peoples attention to them driving in the wrong lanes, as that means my own personal lane will become in use by other drivers.

Yes lane 1 on the N7 in the morning must be like having a Zil lane in Moscow. I do borrow your lane between Js 7 and 5, hope that's OK.

SpaceTime

whomitconcerns wrote: »

doesnt work...if they actually even notice you you usually just get shown the middle finger...

I would see that as 'passive aggressive driving' at worst and total ignorance at best.

If you don't know why people are flashing and beeping at you while you're obstructing an overtaking lane, then you really shouldn't be driving on a motorway or dual carriage way at all.

If you were to say that nobody could undertake a slow moving vehicle in the overtaking lane, you would have tailbacks for hundreds of KM on the motorways.

SpaceTime

I'd also add that if a judge concluded that it was perfectly acceptable to drive at 80km/h in the overtaking lane on a clear motorway, he/she might need to get driving lessons.

If you're not overtaking and there's no queuing traffic, you shouldn't be in the overtaking lane - end of story.

If you're in it, and holding up traffic behind you - you are obstructing the entire motorway.

You can drive at 80km/h or whatever speed you like (it would seem in Ireland anyway) in the driving lane (left lane) but it's both dangerous and ignorant to block the passing lanes.

---

I encountered this recently on the M18:

Slow moving car doing considerably less than 80km/h in the overtaking lane, with no lights on *IN FOG*.

Luckily I saw it when passing and slowed down as I've good brakes. They were almost entirely invisible.

I was passing a line of slower moving traffic (behind the ubiquitous Irish thing of a tractor with no lights on the motorway) and then "wham" -- rear of a Ford Focus toddling along as if it was the main street in Ennis.

... Unfortunately there is a cohort of people in Ireland who simply cannot drive and are a danger to themselves and others on the road.

I keep encountering people who can't merge too (more so in the West of Ireland than anywhere else actually, possibly because motorways/DCs are new there). It's absolutely lethal though. Again on the M18, someone entering the motorway like this:

Drive at about 20km/h .. hesitate and keep braking .. then turn out at about 40% of the the speed of the moving traffic nearly causing a crash.

cnocbui

whomitconcerns wrote: »

doesnt work...if they actually even notice you you usually just get shown the middle finger...

You forgot the bit about them madly flashing their lights at you in indignation after you have undertaken them.

whomitconcerns

cnocbui wrote: »

You forgot the bit about them madly flashing their lights at you in indignation after you have undertaken them.

ah yes the old "i recognise now that I was in the wrong" salute :P

savagethegoat

well they are fining lane hoggers on the UK now which makes more sense than having to add an extra lane!

Personally I think I'll buy a Merc and mount a machine gun behind that gunsight

SpaceTime

cnocbui wrote: »

You forgot the bit about them madly flashing their lights at you in indignation after you have undertaken them.

That just reminds me of the Simpsons' Crazy Cat Lady type response.

Incoherent spluttering and several cats thrown out the driver's window at you as you pass.

ShaunieVW

I rarely ever have to use the m7 but used it last week and couldn't believe how free the left most lane was, if they were to fine every gob****e for driving in the middle lane 50 euro we could abolish car tax.

ianobrien

A couple of times I've met the overtaking lane hog sitting at 80kph on the motorway. As I couldn't overtake, or legally undertake, I generally sit 6foot back from the rear in the correct driving lane. I'm in lane 1 6 foot back from the car in the overtaking lane. I'll sit there as I can't undertake. Usually after two or three minutes, the lane hog cops on and tries to change lanes to lane 1. But then I start blowing the horn as I'm in possession of the lane. It's fun watching them trying to figure out what's wrong and why can't they change lanes ("Sure I'm indicating, that gives me right of way"). It ends with the lane hog braking and then tucking in behind me.

Before I'm flamed, yes I know its not proper and yes I'm ready to stand on the brakes in case the lane hog does something silly. If there is something behind me then I'm more careful.

SpaceTime

This is the manoeuvre that wrecks my head.

Set car to 120kmh on the cruise control and someone in the left lane is going maybe 110, so I pass.

Continue on my way cruising along at maximum efficiency.

Driver I just passed accelerates and passes me. Then after a few mins drops speed back to 108.

Irritated that I'll have to touch brakes, I move into right lane and pass again.

He accelerates blocking my ability to move back into lane. I speed up a bit and complete pass.

He passes me again and slows back down to 106!

At this stage I blasted the horn at him and moved into the outer lane and had to break the speed limit to get away from the psycho!

I'd actually consider that dangerous or at the very least aggressive and inconsiderate driving.

savagethegoat

yes there's a certain macho bloody mindedness about many Irish drivers. Amateur speed cops some of them too

sunnysoutheast

ianobrien wrote: »

A couple of times I've met the overtaking lane hog sitting at 80kph on the motorway. As I couldn't overtake, or legally undertake, I generally sit 6foot back from the rear in the correct driving lane. I'm in lane 1 6 foot back from the car in the overtaking lane. I'll sit there as I can't undertake. Usually after two or three minutes, the lane hog cops on and tries to change lanes to lane 1. But then I start blowing the horn as I'm in possession of the lane. It's fun watching them trying to figure out what's wrong and why can't they change lanes ("Sure I'm indicating, that gives me right of way"). It ends with the lane hog braking and then tucking in behind me.

Before I'm flamed, yes I know its not proper and yes I'm ready to stand on the brakes in case the lane hog does something silly. If there is something behind me then I'm more careful.

Sorry but I genuinely can't understand why someone would deliberately put themselves and others at risk of an accident like that.

The entire point about defensive driving is that you clear yourself and/or stay away from from the poor drivers as quickly and safely as possible.

80 km/h is 22 metres per second. Your six feet would therefore give you about a tenth of a second to react. Good luck with that.

savagethegoat

sunnysoutheast wrote: »

Sorry but I genuinely can't understand why someone would deliberately put themselves and others at risk of an accident like that.

The entire point about defensive driving is that you clear yourself and/or stay away from from the poor drivers as quickly and safely as possible.

80 km/h is 22 metres per second. Your six feet would therefore give you about a tenth of a second to react. Good luck with that.

six feet behind in another lane he said :rolleyes: