Looking at a Celica

bajer101

Hi, I'm looking for a Celica, but the 190bhp models are fairly thin on the ground. Does anyone have any thoughts on this one? What should I look out for?

Thanks,

https://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/toyota-celica-vvtl-i-2003-fresh-nct-tax-/9863598

bajer101

This would give me a cause for concern:

"Change Of Vehicle Ownership
Transferred to an Individual on : 02/06/2015

Notified on : 04/06/2015"

But he has a few cars for sale, so it looks like he's a bit of a trader as opposed to someone having just bought it and finding a problem with it.

Toyotafanboi

That one has been for sale for a looooooong time. It's up since i was buying mine in mid February. It was advertised in Co. Wicklow with a log book address in Kildare witn no tax or test at the time, looking to swap for a smaller engined car. It was taxed in the same month as the "ownership change" so i'd say it was "sold" to avoid 4+ months of arrears in tax.

It's a decent looking example in fairness, superstrut may be an unwanted expense in the future though and expect insurance to be rough enough. UK models are much easier insured.

bajer101

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

That one has been for sale for a looooooong time. It's up since i was buying mine in mid February. It was advertised in Co. Wicklow with a log book address in Kildare witn no tax or test at the time, looking to swap for a smaller engined car. It was taxed in the same month as the "ownership change" so i'd say it was "sold" to avoid 4+ months of arrears in tax.

It's a decent looking example in fairness, superstrut may be an unwanted expense in the future though and expect insurance to be rough enough. UK models are much easier insured.

Thanks Toyotafanboi. I checked out the seller's previous adverts and he seems to buy and sell on a small scale after doing a bit of work on them. Is there a known issue with the superstrut? The insurance is no problem as I'm an aul fella and a quick check is showing that it will be no dearer than my current Volvo S60 2.0t. It is a bit boy racer looking for me, but I have always fancied them and I reckoned if I was going to get one, there is no point in not getting the VVTli. It's a toss-up between this or another RX8. I had a Rex before and still miss it.

Toyotafanboi

http://cars.donedeal.ie/view/9799634

Slightly less test but starting at €1100 cheaper. Insurance friendly UK model, T-Sport spec with TTE 17" wheels, 2 tone leather etc.

Toyotafanboi

Superstrut's aren't particularly soft so to speak but if they do go, and they do eventually the arms are main dealer only and a couple of hundred euros each, a macpherson car would be a bit easier on the wallet if it's a long term purchase, that said, the superstrut does make them a nicer drive.

having had my 190 for near 6 months, i was dead set on a 190 while buying but the only time i've used the 190 above 6k (where it's accessable) was on the test drive. Day to day it's plenty torqey down low so a 145 is well capable and some 05-06 145s have great spec and go for buttons. Facelift 145s haven't the dreaded oil burning issues of the pre facelift 145s too.

bajer101

Is that not a standard 140bhp vvti? I'm not a speed freak, but I do like having plenty of poke available. I missed the extra when I went from the Rex to the Volvo and just reckoned that it would be better to go for the vvtli as there would be little difference in insurance for me. That said - I am not completely set on the 190bhp and if I knew of a good 140bhp model I would definitely consider it. But with this one being in Waterford, that is just a bit too far for me to travel from Dublin as time is tight.

bajer101

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Superstrut's aren't particularly soft so to speak but if they do go, and they do eventually the arms are main dealer only and a couple of hundred euros each, a macpherson car would be a bit easier on the wallet if it's a long term purchase, that said, the superstrut does make them a nicer drive.

having had my 190 for near 6 months, i was dead set on a 190 while buying but the only time i've used the 190 above 6k (where it's accessable) was on the test drive. Day to day it's plenty torqey down low so a 145 is well capable and some 05-06 145s have great spec and go for buttons. Facelift 145s haven't the dreaded oil burning issues of the pre facelift 145s too.

Thanks for the info - appreciate it. I don't mind having to hit the high revs to get the jollies and am well used to that from the Rex. The torque at the lower revs on them is brutal and you really have to hit the high revs to get benefit, so I got used to that.

I might be meeting up with that fella to have a look at it tomorrow. It might suit me as I am getting rid of the Volvo which has no NCT or Tax and needs a few things looking at. I just don't have the time to get it sorted and this lad might take it off my hands which saves me the hassle. Is there anything in particular that I could look for to spot potential issues with the superstruts? Or anything else in particular to look out for? Thanks again.

akelly02

Purely aesthetic reasons but leather interior suit the car a lot better imo

tuxy

bajer101 wrote: »

Is there anything in particular that I could look for to spot potential issues with the superstruts?

If the superstrut is gone you will hear and feel knocking under breaking and accelerating. Wheel might even pull a bit to the side.
To check if it's on the way out you would have to jack the wheel up and look underneath for any play in the joints. You would probably have to look up pictures of superstrut beforehand to know where to check. I know this because superstrut going cost me €800 a few years ago.

Toyotafanboi

Knocking in the front suspension is a sure sign of superstrut trouble but if it just passed the NCT it's most likely tight enough.

They are a fairly sturdy car, not too much to watch for really aside from abuse from being owned by an idiot, they aren't really known for many reoccuring faults.

One thing is to make sure you feel the vvtli kick at 6.5k revs, if you don't feel an aggressive changeover it means the lift bolts are broken. The engine is in no danger if they are broken (which is somewhat likely) and they are only like €15 to buy and a competent diy'er could replace them in an hour or two but it's a good bargaining point for you if they are gone.

Rads are prone to failure in the bottom corners too so check the coolant level. You can't easily access the resevoir really but listen for gurgling behind the dash on cold start. If it gurgles chances are it's been loosing coolant, probably through the rad and he's air locked it topping it up as these cars are impossible to bleed due to the cooling system layout.

They are probably the two most well known fails on them. The engine itself is pretty bomb proof if you keep good oil in it.

tuxy

Is that the pre or post face lift model, I don't know enough about the 7th gen to tell. The pre face lift 190bhp are known to have a big problem with burning oil.

tuxy

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Knocking in the front suspension is a sure sign of superstrut trouble but if it just passed the NCT it's most likely tight enough.

Mine had a new NCT on it when it went. The car will drive just fine and pass any tests once there is a small bit of rubber left but once that goes and its metal on metal knocking you're in trouble.

bajer101

Thanks guys.

tuxy wrote: »

Is that the pre or post face lift model, I don't know enough about the 7th gen to tell. The pre face lift 190bhp are known to have a big problem with burning oil.

I think the oil burning issue only affected the vvti, so shouldn't be an issue with this one. He has put a new Excedy clutch in it, but that got me thinking that it may have been driven a bit too hard. I'm very much a novice here so I could be talking through my hole.

Toyotafanboi

tuxy wrote: »

Is that the pre or post face lift model, I don't know enough about the 7th gen to tell. The pre face lift 190bhp are known to have a big problem with burning oil.

The pre facelift 140 were known for burning oil and sometimes bottom end trouble, i'm confident pre facelift 190s weren't effected. I bought a pre facelift 190 with 145k miles on it and it burned virtually nothing. At worst 500ml over 5000 miles which isn't bad for a decade old, high mileage performance engine.

Facelift cars came out in 03, the OP's linked car is a facelift. Facelifts have the wide upper front grille and the all red tail lights.

bajer101

The one I was looking at which is link in the first post looks like it was clocked according to motorcheck. It went from 50,000 miles in August 2009 to 100,000 miles in August 2011. It could be that the 100,000 miles was KM entered incorrectly, but he has no service history or previous NCT certs to verify so I'll have to pass.

Toyotafanboi

Are those the only 2 mileage entries?

Toyotafanboi

It does seem like a very plausable miles to km's error.

50k miles, August 2009

Then recorded as 100k miles in August 2011 which would almost be a case of adding on miles not taking them away.

However, if it was recorded as 100k kms in August 2011, then that would be 63k miles and tie in perfectly.

The car is at 145k kms now (87k miles) or is the seller claiming that there is 87k kms on it?

If it has 145k kms i'd be inclined to believe he whole thing.

tuxy

It's not a good picture so it's hard to tell but the seats look very worn for something with that mileage.

Also aren't many jap imports clocked before arriving here?
So it has the possibility of being clocked twice in its lifetime.

Toyotafanboi

tuxy wrote: »

It's not a good picture so it's hard to tell but the seats look very worn for something with that mileage.

Also aren't many jap imports clocked before arriving here?
So it has the possibility of being clocked twice in its lifetime.

I think that's a myth. For most people in Japan a car is a luxury item and between their super efficient public transport system and heavily congested citys, cars generally don't get used as much so a lot of Jap imports have quite low genuine mileages. They are also a sound bunch of lads who wouldn't clock a car.

tuxy

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

I think that's a myth. For most people in Japan a car is a luxury item and between their super efficient public transport system and heavily congested citys, cars generally don't get used as much so a lot of Jap imports have quite low genuine mileages. They are also a sound bunch of lads who wouldn't clock a car.

It's not the public that sells the cars in Japan, most are sold at auctions to a dealer. This dealer then sells to dealers in other countries. It's true most cars in japan have low mileage. However I've watched this guys videos on youtube
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLgNLPLkJ_t4cN2JxeV0Qfw/videos
He exports cars he buys at auctions over there.

I can't remember which video since he has many but he talks about many dealers refusing to buy from him as he won't clock the cars before shipping.

Edit: actually here it is
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jp3i8fl4wfo

Flatzie_poo

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

The pre facelift 140 were known for burning oil and sometimes bottom end trouble, i'm confident pre facelift 190s weren't effected. I bought a pre facelift 190 with 145k miles on it and it burned virtually nothing. At worst 500ml over 5000 miles which isn't bad for a decade old, high mileage performance engine.

Facelift cars came out in 03, the OP's linked car is a facelift. Facelifts have the wide upper front grille and the all red tail lights.

I've never seen someone live up to their name so much!

Fair play to you man - serious info given!!!

bajer101

Here's the mileage report from Motorcheck:

08/08/2013 123,919 Kms (77,000 Mls)
14/11/2012 106,217 Kms (66,000 Mls)
31/08/2011 162,449 Kms (100,941 Mls)
31/08/2009 78,858 Kms (49,000 Mls)
09/07/2009 77,249 Kms (48,000 Mls)

According to this the car did 50,000 miles in the two years between August 2009 and August 2011. That would be 25,000 miles a year which would be very high, but if the 100,000 miles should read Kilometres, that is only 62,700 miles which would mean the car did less than 13,000 miles in those two years - which is low. Assuming the figure is supposed 62,700 miles, that would mean that the next figure of 66,000 miles in November of 2012 means that the car would only have done 3,300 miles in those 15 months which is very low.

I'm tending towards believing that it was clocked down to 66,000 miles. The car was sold to a dealer in Oct 2012 and I'd say he is the culprit. Assuming that the 100,941 miles figure from 2011 is correct and that owner was putting 25,000 miles a year on the car - when he sold it to the dealer 15 months later the true mileage at that stage would have been over 130,000 and it was then clocked down to 66,000.

I could be wrong and if there was any sort of service history or NCT certs between 2009 and 2012 when the suspected high mileage was done, showing the lower mileage, then I would have gone with it. But as it is, there is no way I would take a chance on it. It has needed a new clutch and the seats do look a bit worn so I think I am right to avoid.

Toyotafanboi

I certainly see your logic, it seems reasonable. Shame.

The driver seat outer bolster was ripped open in every celica i looked at so don't let that put you off future propositions.

Toyotafanboi

I see what you mean. Only two other sensible looking 190bhp models with NCT for sale in Dublin. Both older than that one.

There's a few with the TRD kit but that is a bit lairy looking.

bajer101

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

I see what you mean. Only two other sensible looking 190bhp models with NCT for sale in Dublin. Both older than that one.

There's a few with the TRD kit but that is a bit lairy looking.

Is this one? It's a 2002 and is the T-Sport version. Low mileage but not many photos. It's a bit subtler looking without the big spoiler, but that suits me. The only thing that bothers me about a 2002 is that I read that the lift bolts in these can come loose - but maybe I shouldn't be too concerned by that as they have either already been replaced or are an easy fix. NCT is only til November on this one though.

https://cars.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/toyota-celica-t-sport/9692175

bajer101

That 2002 one checks out on Motorcheck. Imported from the UK in 2007 with 1 owner for six years and the current owner has had it for a year. Low mileage of 70k which checks out. I'll have a look at it over the weekend.

Toyotafanboi

Yeah, the black one is a nice looking example as they go, not too abused and it is (should be, at least) a 190. T-Sport gets you a few nice bits, as said you get full leather and the aluminium pedals and the bootlid spoiler as standard. (The spoiler on the red one is a TRD item and some young lad would give you a couple of hundred for it :P)

It does have facelift tail lights so do check to see if it's ever had a tap at the back. That said, it's a popular modification as the facelift lights take years off the car, but just be wary.

I wouldn't stress about the lift bolts really. Last time i priced them i think they were €7.50 x2. A competent mechanic would have them out and in in 90 mins and it's very do-able diy with a basic socket set if you are that way inclined. The engine also isn't in danger even if they break and are left in there for a period of time.

My biggest concern with the black one would be the wheels. They look like 18's, mine was on 18's when i bought it and it was a brute, very very harsh and crashy and a **** to turn. Switching mine to a set of 16's was a night and day improvement in driveability, but it's far from the end of the world either way.

One owner for a long period of time is always reassuring to see.

bajer101

Thanks for the info and advice. I'll be looking at the T Sport over the weekend and if it checks out I'll probably go for it. I'll let you know how I get on. Cheers.

Toyotafanboi

http://www.adverts.ie/car/toyota/celica/2001-toyota-celica/7863801

could be worth a look too. genuine looking car, a lot of **** talking in the comments, but with a new test, if you took it home under €2k it'd be a decent car.

bajer101

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

http://www.adverts.ie/car/toyota/celica/2001-toyota-celica/7863801

could be worth a look too. genuine looking car, a lot of **** talking in the comments, but with a new test, if you took it home under €2k it'd be a decent car.

Aah, dropping down another year and I reckon he is taking the píss with that price. He's had it advertised for a couple of months and hasn't altered his price despite no bites, so he could be difficult to negotiate with. The black 2002 model that I'm looking at is November 2002 and is cheaper with less miles and has the T-sport pack with leather seats and is a clean UK import instead of Jap. I do want a VVTLi but I'm not that desperate that I can't wait.

The comments on Adverts are fairly typical from what I have seen. "What's the tax on this? Will you swap for my Honda 50? Does it have wheels?"
I'll fix the few probs on my S60 and get the NCT and sell it privately, but I don't think I could be dealing with that nonsense on Adverts. I'd nearly prefer to just scrap a car and take the couple of hundred euro than have to deal with that shíte for a couple of months for a few bob more.

Toyotafanboi

The jewel in the crown of those comments has got to be "has the timing belt been done"... just seen a newish NCT and a reasonably tidy car, said it was worth sticking in here as they are few and far between.

keep us posted man you seem to know where you're at with this, don't be afraid to haggle hard, these celicas are epically undesirable, so it seems once you turn up with cash, you name your price.

kev250

I do have a nice vvti one for sale if it was of interest.