Disciplinary action due to sick leave

LegacyUser

I recently had to travel to the USA for work for 9 days.

One day after my return I was very sick and I had to be hospitalised.

Liver related issue due to virus. Another person from a client company we were meeting in the USA also contracted a similar illness as did others in that hotel. Hotel is under investigation by local US Health Dept.

This caused me to be absent from work for 5 days. My wife was only able to contact my Senior Manager on the afternoon of the day I was hospitalised. He said not to worry and get better.

I furnished a sick note from the hospital. I realise that the sick note does not excuse my abscence but it does explain it.

I also had to take 1 half day for hospital follow up and I need an additional half day for the final follow up in approx 6 weeks.

I have been working with this company for over 20 years (large irish company) and in that time I have had 3 sick days. I am a manager and manage a large team.

When I returned from work I had to meet with HR and explain my abscence which I did. I heard nothing more.

This morning I was invited to a HR meeting and presented with a formal written warning due to my recent sick leave. I was told that this was a permanent record and that due to the written warning I would not eligible to apply for any promotion opportunities for the next 5 years.

I protested and explained that I contacted the virus due to travelling for work and that others who were also there were also infected and that hotel was under investigation.

I was told I have 23 hours to sign and agree to the written warning or I shall be suspended.

I checked my employee handbook and while there is a clause about unexplained abscence due to illness (which I argue I don't fall under) there is nothing about promotion bars or suspension for not signing a written warning.

I went to my Senior Manager who rang the Head of HR while I was in the room. He explained illness occurred due to work, other people infected, that I had followed procedure, contact him etc. HR are not moving on this.

The promotion bit is important as the Senior Manager is retiring in 13 months time and I currently perform approx 60% of his functions with a view to me taking over his job in 13 months time.

The real kicker is that meeting was the last one of several which lead to the client signing contracts worth several million.

I'm tempted to get a solicitor as I don't really want to sign the warning but at the same time I don't want to go the legal route.

chickenlicken2

Solicitor definitely.

MarkAnthony

Are you shortening the story for the sake of conciseness or where you afforded no opportunity to present your case in the final hearing? Where you presented with the evidence prior to the hearing? Where you warned that disciplinary action could result at any stage?

If the answer to any of these questions is no get on to a solicitor, it's a clear breach of fair procedures and the warning, in my view, is invalid. Your HR team sound like a bit of a cowboy operation to be frank.

_Brian

Sounds like stuff is missing here.

Were you on a verbal warning for any reason recently.
It's possible but unusual to jump to written warning without a verbal first.

Also, surely you have leave to a formal appeal of this warning. Suspending an employee for not signing an warning is very severe, I've not heard that before.

Ask for a 3 way meeting with HR yourself and your senior manager.

Nody

I tend to agree that something is missing here or it has to be a very incompetent HR department for reasons listed above. Five years of no promotion also sounds as a very harsh penalty (I'd expect maybe 6 months or a year if it was included as formal punishment) and should also be listed in the employee handbook.

Having said that with the information at hand there are several potential breaches of policy/law in place which is why a solicitor may be your best bet. Either way make sure you lodge an appeal.

gandalf

Do not sign anything, based on what you have said they are being extremely harsh and unreasonable.

5 years bar from promotion is especially harsh and unusual, any prescriptions of this type are typically a max of 12 months. It sounds like someone in HR is trying to manipulate the replacement for the Senior Manager role and are getting you out of the picture.

As suggested as a first step I would ask for a three way meeting with HR and your senior manager.

I'd ask them in advance of this meeting to outline why they are going this route in writing citing the exact clauses in your contract or employee handbook that are applicable.

Failing that or if the meeting is still at stalemate I'd talk to a solicitor.

Given you contracted a disease because you were working for the company I would think you may have leverage for compensation especially if the company booked that hotel on your behalf. The only problem with this option is that it may influence the promotion when it comes up in 13 months as well.

Good luck.

Squatman

I reckon Gandalf hit the nail on the head. Its a catch 22. I would get your manager to write down what his recommendations are as regards Do you sign it or not, surely this will be to not sign it. If you do sign it, is professional suicide with this company, as is going to a solicitor.

Mrs OBumble

gandalf wrote: »

It sounds like someone in HR is trying to manipulate the replacement for the Senior Manager role and are getting you out of the picture.

Indeed. There's a back story here, quite a major one. You need to figure out what it is, before deciding what to do. You will not find it out in any formal meetings. Maybe your manager can help. Maybe they can't/won't. Start working your networks.

Very strange that HR are willing to expose the company to the sort of risks that they are.

i'd go to a solicitor before doing anything else, and I wouldn't be siggning anything without legal advice.

Start thinking about what your desired outcome from all this is. I think that everything going back to normal is unlikely to be a possible option.

I'd also be job hunting, your career with this company is most likely over. Yes, this absolutely sucks after 20 years with the company.

Dyr

Broke pretty much every guideline for a disciplinary procedure

Straight to a solicitor my man.

Gael23

OP there has to be more to this situation.
Either way, do not attempt to sign anything until you have spoken to a solicitor. Something like this happened to my mum a couple of years ago, she was out for 8 months following surgery.
I also want to agree with Mrs o Bumble, get job hunting. I'm my mums case that was the only answer for both sides, after 23 years of being in the same department. She got a financial settlement to leave but that's slightly off the point.

TheDoc

Sounds extremely harsh.

If you were actually hospitalised, and have a note from the actual hospital, I'm not sure what your HR department are expecting you to do productivity wise, with a liver virus.

As others say sounds like either you have some history with sick leave(although you state you don't) or someone is maybe sidelining you for that upcoming promotion.

Absolutely none of that makes sense in the slightest. The company are leaving themselves open to big trouble here. The good news is that your manager seems to be on your side, ensure he fights it up his escalation channels also.

If I was you wouldn't be signing or agreeing to anything, and would be protesting heavily against that being filed on record. Wouldn't bust out the solicitor threat until it's an absolute last resort, as if you take legal action against your company, thats most likely the end of your career there anyway (as much as people or advice would you say you should not be treated differently after taking that route)

Larbre34

OP, please tell us this is not a large modern or widely known organisation. A process like that coming from modern HR practitioners is almost inconceivable.

As above, straight to a Solicitor with an employment specialist. And go for the best one you can find, as your company will be paying for it in the end.

LastLagoon

Chancers, sounds like someone in HR trying to clear the path for a buddy. Don't sign

tayto lover

I take it there's no Union.
Wouldn't happen if there was.

Wanderer78

best of luck with it op. what a dreadful way to threat a long serving member of a company. three long serving managers i use to work with were 'politely' shown the door a few months ago. one has just recently some how managed to survive cancer. companys need to get over themselves and start to realise that people like you make their businesses work. best of luck.

DublinWriter

Bambi wrote: »

Broke pretty much every guideline for a disciplinary procedure

Straight to a solicitor my man.

...very much what he/she said, that's if the situation is as you describe and you're not omitting anything too serious.

macker64

If what you said initially is 100% factual and accurate then this HR Department is leaving your company wide open to litigation.

They sound very unprofessional and completely out of their depth!!

You absolutely need to take professional legal advice on this and do not attempt to sign anything before you do.

seamus

Don't sign anything. If you are suspended, it will be fully paid, and assuming that the HR decision is overturned it won't impact your ability to move forward in future.

Get a solicitor, don't sign a thing and do not agree to any meetings without your solicitor present.

OldBean

Sounds like someone in HR doesn't want you getting the promotion in the first place. Go seek a solicitors advice, I don't think you're going to lose out by it. Photocopy everything, write a journal of everything that's been said, have copies of all emails.

Hope you're feeling better.

Hollister11

It sounds like the HR was waiting for a reason to discipline you, so they could present you from going for promotion. Maybe they have a friend who is up against you for the position, or maybe they have been given instructions to prevent you going for promotion as the company has someone from outside the company in mind.

What ever you do, don't sign anything, don't agree to anything, without getting your solicitor involved.

Good luck.

glued

It's important to establish what procedure was broken. On the face of what you have told us I would definitely seek advice. I'd agree that there is a back story to this. Try and find out as much information as possible and establish why they want to issue you with a written warning.

I'd present my case to a solicitor and perhaps a letter to HR will resolve the matter. I've had experience with incompetent HR before and it was resolved very quickly with a solicitors letter.

samsid

as said several times in thread, don't sign the acknowledgement of warning, you are paving the way for your employer, acknowledging
that you broke terms of contract re sickness, and are now liable to and accepting of consequence of same. You cannot be held accountable for a certified illness, if you were trowing a sickie every week or so it would be different, Definitely seek legal advice.

If there is more to the story, ie as suggested they have been waiting for an opportunity to 'nail' you, the circumstances may be construed as Constructive Dismissal, creating a work environment that makes it hard for you to do your job, removing promotional prospects, leaving you at a dead end

Have you considered the consequence of not signing, they say they will suspend you, when the suspension ends, how can they start the discipliinary process again? you've already been punished, not that you had to be punished in 1st place.

Record on paper ,times & dates of future management meetings on your case, & those involved, keep a calm head, don't offer any information only that basic required, let them do the talking. Consult a solicitor, one that deals with Labour laws,bring your job contract
any relevant documentation, a brief outline of events leading up to this situation, for his future reference. Also if your senior manager
was OK with your abscence, remember he is a representative of the company, if he made an error in the companies eyes, by allowing your leave, disciplinary measures must be taken against him also , more severe than against you, as it is his responsibility to supervise you in manner that company requires.
Take legal advice, if complete account is in post #1 of this thread, hell sort it for you

Rock 1234

WrittenWarning wrote: »

I was told I have 23 hours to sign and agree to the written warning or I shall be suspended.

The promotion bit is important as the Senior Manager is retiring in 13 months time and I currently perform approx 60% of his functions with a view to me taking over his job in 13 months time.

I'm tempted to get a solicitor as I don't really want to sign the warning but at the same time I don't want to go the legal route.

Op it looks like you have no choice but to go to a solicitor specialising in employment law, you don't have to tell your employer anything unless you have to take legal action,

It looks like HR wants to put in a new management team to replace you and your senior manager,

Get a reference from your senior manager because it is unlikely HR will give you one,

Remember Ireland is a small place and it will be difficult to find another management job,

dixiefly

Is it possible that there is someone at a a higher level than HR behind this? Is there form here with senior management / directors?

Can you take this above HR to director level?

I think that you are being treated appallingly, probably best to see a solicitor specialisingin employment law on the qt.

Dyr

seamus wrote: »

Don't sign anything. If you are suspended, it will be fully paid, and assuming that the HR decision is overturned it won't impact your ability to move forward in future.

Get a solicitor, don't sign a thing and do not agree to any meetings without your solicitor present.

He almost certainly won't be able to bring a solicitor to a disciplinary meeting, but don't go alone and understand the company's disciplinary policy beforehand

The fact that the OP was'nt informed that he was attending a disciplinary meeting in writing (or at all) before hand is an indication that something stinks

LegacyUser

Bambi wrote: »

He almost certainly won't be able to bring a solicitor to a disciplinary meeting, but don't go alone and understand the company's disciplinary policy beforehand

The fact that the OP was'nt informed that he was attending a disciplinary meeting in writing (or at all) before hand is an indication that something stinks

the very fact that you didnt receive warning about the disiplinary meeting means that the whole thing is void.

they essentially SKIPPED that part, which is not allowed. you could tell them that now and the whole thing would have to be scrapped.

they MUST inform you it's a disciplinary meeting, and they also have to give you a chance to bring someone in with you - ie: union, or staff member/witness.

otherwise - solicitor. they'll back down. they must know theyre completely in the wrong!

JIdontknow

Something not right here! If what you're saying is the full story then something dodgy is going on in the background. Either HR or higher management want you gone, or don't want you applying for that promotion. There is no way HR can do what you've explained, considering your own boss has your back, and taken your side implies you've done nothing wrong and he is happy. Plus the fact your presence sealed the contract. You need to get a solicitor, and also talk with your boss about this, see if he says anything as this is strange. You cannot be disciplined for being on genuine certified sick leave once you follow the guidelines in your contract (Unless its long term in which case the company can do something, or make you attend the company doctor). Can you get written confirmation others in attendance have the same virus or illness, etc? Or can you talk with management of the company about this (That is, if HR and senior management are not in on this together).

LegacyUser

I'm the OP.

Thanks for all the replies. No prior warnings informal/written with this or any other company.

My sick leave is as stated.

I've asked around and something is going on. Manager friend at a similar level is having a similar issue due to allowing his team to arrive late in the morning, after working long days on a project over several days (long days as in 16 hour days 4 days in a row). Previously this was never an issue.

All very strange as up to this point a great place to work.

Both senior managers very supportive and both have no idea what is going on.

Went to Solicitor who gave me some very good advice which I've followed.

I'll keep you all posted.

edanto

WrittenWarning wrote: »

This morning I was invited to a HR meeting and presented with a formal written warning due to my recent sick leave. I was told that this was a permanent record and that due to the written warning I would not eligible to apply for any promotion opportunities for the next 5 years.

I was told I have 23 hours to sign and agree to the written warning or I shall be suspended.

Because your manager has already spoken to the head of HR and they are refusing to budge, it's not looking like there is any solution here that puts things back to how they were.

It really doesn't matter what is going on in the background.

You're entitled to fair process, and the quoted section above is not fair, especially since you contacted your manager as soon as you were able, and the company (via your manager) accepted that you were sick. Which you then proved with the sick cert.

How does the process above compare with the disciplinary procedure in the handbook? Typically, only gross misconduct would lead directly to a written warning. It's a very unusual outcome to the facts you have presented. Is there anything else that they might say from their side?

You should refer to the grievance procedure in your handbook, and consider submitting a grievance. Since the grievance is with the head of HR, it's likely the grievance will be submitted to their manager, typically COO or CEO.

I'd lay out the sequence of events as above, add in how much you enjoy your job, your intentions to apply for the senior manager job when they retire, and your confusion as to this bizarre treatment you have received.

Hopefully that will resolve the matter. If it does not, and if later you feel your position is untenable and you need to resign, at least you will have a paper trail of how they have treated you which is crucial in the event of a constructive dismissal case.

It's ESSENTIAL to speak to a solicitor, even for advice about the possible options, and what you need to be keeping a record of.

TheDoc

Again I'd stress that you should use a solicitor as a last resort. You use that card, you career is finished in the place.

your manager, who you describe as senior, appears to have your side of the story. Ensure you recording meetings and discussions, and request your manager to escalate this through their channels. Even in the biggest companies, where there is an executive level HR or personal, there will be other executives that spearhead your department or compartment of the organisation. So they can raise the issue at executive level once properly escalated through your manager.

The fact you havn't handed in a notice and walked from this sorrid affair indicates you want to stay there, are comfortable there, or maybe are worried about a sudden upheaval. So definitly dont go launching into solicitors, I wouldn't even mention it. Go down that route after you have exhausted all other avenues internally. But definitely dont sign or agree to anything in written or verbally, until there has been a definitive response from the highest possible level of management.

So as an example, if that was me in my company, I'd escalate to my manager, who would escalate to my Department head. My Dept. Head is an executive, and could address that at an executive meeting where he has the same footing as the HR executive, while having arbitration with the CO's present. If it came back down that the company was siding with HR, then I know its my time to leave.

Dyr

TheDoc wrote: »

Again I'd stress that you should use a solicitor as a last resort. You use that card, you career is finished in the place.

If they finish his career there then they're looking at a victimization case on top of everything else.

Cold comfort sometimes.

TheDoc

Bambi wrote: »

If they finish his career there then they're looking at a victimization case on top of everything else.

Cold comfort sometimes.

How often do they actually come to pass though? Not overly difficult for a company to outline to the labor court why they chose one candidate over another. (Excluding situations of religious, cultural or racial incident)

Just saying the fact that the OP hasn't walked and flicked the V's indicates he wants to stay there, so legal action should be the last resort. As much as in a perfect world taking legal address against your employer should not affect your standing in the company, we all know that it does and rarely are you coming back from taking that step.

Dyr

TheDoc wrote: »

How often do they actually come to pass though? Not overly difficult for a company to outline to the labor court why they chose one candidate over another. (Excluding situations of religious, cultural or racial incident)

Just saying the fact that the OP hasn't walked and flicked the V's indicates he wants to stay there, so legal action should be the last resort. As much as in a perfect world taking legal address against your employer should not affect your standing in the company, we all know that it does and rarely are you coming back from taking that step.

Not necessarily, if they want someone gone then they'll just dismiss them and take the risk of an unfair dismissal case going against them

This company sound like complete idiots though so god only knows

gandalf

TBH the OP should probably engage with a solicitor anyway to get advice no matter what else is going on in the discussions. He doesn't have to let the company know he is taking legal advice until it becomes clear that HR are sticking to their guns and he has to go down the legal route to resolve things.

OldBean

TheDoc wrote: »

Again I'd stress that you should use a solicitor as a last resort. You use that card, you career is finished in the place.

Completely agree with Gandalf, a solicitor is your next step.

Don't mention a solicitor to anyone in the workplace or peers, or anyone, just go straight to one specialising in labour/workplace disputes and get advice and move from there. Whether you stay exactly where you are, get a promotion, get fired or leave, it will be money well spent in the long term.

Nody

//MOD

OP; if this ends up going legal be careful with how much information you put here; this is for your own best interest in mind.

//MOD

ahnowbrowncow

Put do keep us informed, I'm very interested to see how this works out. Best of luck Op.

DJMG92

Me to. Please keep us informed. I'd say it's not a pleasurable time nor an easy one at present for you, so we're here to help if we can

FishOnABike

WrittenWarning wrote: »

I'm the OP.

Thanks for all the replies. No prior warnings informal/written with this or any other company.

My sick leave is as stated.

I've asked around and something is going on. Manager friend at a similar level is having a similar issue due to allowing his team to arrive late in the morning, after working long days on a project over several days (long days as in 16 hour days 4 days in a row). Previously this was never an issue.

All very strange as up to this point a great place to work.

Both senior managers very supportive and both have no idea what is going on.

Went to Solicitor who gave me some very good advice which I've followed.

I'll keep you all posted.

As other posters have said there's something more to this than your sick leave. I'd be looking at the wider business picture here.

Are there any merger / acquisitions / restructuring / cost cutting measures possibly in the offing ? Don't answer here - it might reveal too much potentially identifying information, but consider the business background.

Sidelining senior staff to encourage them to resign sooner rather than possibly have to pay out large redundancy payments later is one possibility.

HR / the company may be setting the stage to bring in fresh blood to the senior management position opening up soon by undermining you and other internal manager's prospects for promotion into the position. An external candidate might be preferred as they could bring in new industry contacts and contracts.

There's bound to be other reasons but as it's not just you it's probably more to do with the company's plans or HR's agenda.

Clearlier

I'm sorry that this has happened to you.

I don't think that anyone has mentioned yet the need to keep a written record of everything that has happened. Dates, times, actions. Take copies of any written communications. Make and keep as detailed a record as you can.

It does seem like neither you've got a spectacularly inept HR department or you're being targeted by someone. Your manager supportive though he may be is unfortunately not likely to be in a position to help. With retirement around the corner he is likely being sidelined already. You need to see if you can find someone senior in the organisation who can find out where this is coming from and make a call on whether this is something you can fight or not.

You may need to make a call on whether to accept the written warning or not tomorrow. That's where the advice of a good solicitor could be invaluable.

Good luck.

Rogueish

Unfortunately I have no advice to add but just want to wish you the best of luck. After 20 years it seems like a major kick in the 'nads.

Keep your head up and try not to get too stressed. Easy for me to say but work is just 'work' despite the time and effort invested in it. Work your contacts and take your solicitors advice.

After 20years in the organisation you have a good feel for the organisation - go with your gut instinct.

Mumha

WrittenWarning wrote: »

I'm the OP.

Thanks for all the replies. No prior warnings informal/written with this or any other company.

My sick leave is as stated.

I've asked around and something is going on. Manager friend at a similar level is having a similar issue due to allowing his team to arrive late in the morning, after working long days on a project over several days (long days as in 16 hour days 4 days in a row). Previously this was never an issue.

All very strange as up to this point a great place to work.

Both senior managers very supportive and both have no idea what is going on.

Went to Solicitor who gave me some very good advice which I've followed.

I'll keep you all posted.

Well done on going to a Solicitor, I'd advise anyone else to do the same.

My partner has received something similar, without any notification that his previous (excellent) attendance was an issue, or likely to be. This is someone who has worked for the company for 30 years. American multinationals are notorious for this sort of nonsense. Out of 3 sick instances, 2 were certified and the other was after his father died. So, he has been told that if he has another instance (certified or not) within the next 12 months, he'll receive a formal warning. This is morally wrong, as he is being punished for those who are doing the Monday/Friday sick note stuff. The union weren't much help, all they wanted to do was to use that to fight the company against going after the sicknote crowd. Great country.

Wanderer78

Mumha wrote: »

Well done on going to a Solicitor, I'd advise anyone else to do the same.

My partner has received something similar, without any notification that his previous (excellent) attendance was an issue, or likely to be. This is someone who has worked for the company for 30 years. American multinationals are notorious for this sort of nonsense. Out of 3 sick instances, 2 were certified and the other was after his father died. So, he has been told that if he has another instance (certified or not) within the next 12 months, he'll receive a formal warning. This is morally wrong, as he is being punished for those who are doing the Monday/Friday sick note stuff. The union weren't much help, all they wanted to do was to use that to fight the company against going after the sicknote crowd. Great country.

these stories are deeply worrying me. it seems like they are becoming the norm. our labour market is in a very sorry state at the moment. we desperately need some sort of union movement in this country or we re gonna end up in serious trouble. i wish you and your family the best in trying to deal with this. families have enough to be worrying about at the moment to be also dealing with this crap.

Michelle_b

Def a solicitor and protect yourself. Hope everything works out for you. 20 years is long time to dedicate to a company but does sound like there is something much bigger going on here... 20 years would be large redundancy if that's what could happen so pushing people out to look elsewhere for jobs easier for them. Unfortunately I myself have seen this.. Companies bully boy tactics and breaking labour laws. It's very disappointing when you have given so much to company. Good luck with everything and take care of you

Squatman

any update on this op?