Transracial

Dogowner55

huffingtonpost.com/rev-miller-jen-hoffman/jenner-can-dolezal-cant-b_b_7754724.html

I am conflicted on this, now I am straight non-trans man but I also can't see why there is a difference in a person realising they are not the right sex and a person realising they are the wrong race.

Both are genetic so why is one taken as ok and one not. This woman obviously feels like she is black, how can anyone deny how she feels a person and how is different then a transsexual.

Another transracial person is also getting pick on here

indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/07/10/open-letter-defenders-andrea-smith-clearing-misconceptions-about-cherokee-identification

This is obviously a thing and people are dismissing it as it's uncommon, but transsexuals where dismissed in the same way when it became seen in the public too.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Because of my love of 3 in 1s and spicy spring rolls I've always believed that I should have been born a Chinese man. I've campaigned unsuccessfully to try and raise awareness of this condition. I'm hopeful these cases will highlight this worthy cause.

Our slogan is:
Once you go Asian, you'll never go Caucasian.

Dogowner55

The Cunning Linguist wrote: »

Because of my love of 3 in 1s and spicy spring rolls I've always believed that I should have been born a Chinese man. I've campaigned unsuccessfully to try and raise awareness of this condition. I'm hopeful these cases will highlight this worthy cause.

Our slogan is:
Once you go Asian, you'll never go Caucasian.

But do you deep down really feel Chinese like transsexuals and these transracials do.

frozenfrozen

special little snowflake doesn't have anything going on in their life so they need to become some special specific newly fabricated term and be praised by other special snowflakes. do a michael jackson on it (not the fiddling part, the surgery) then you can call yourself transracial. but if you're white and believe you're black, that's called mental not transracial

Dogowner55

frozenfrozen wrote: »

special little snowflake doesn't have anything going on in their life so they need to become some special specific newly fabricated term and be praised by other special snowflakes. do a michael jackson on it (not the fiddling part, the surgery) then you can call yourself transracial. but if you're white and believe you're black, that's called mental not transracial

But do you believe transsexual is a thing? I can't figure out why someone would believe one is a thing and the other isn't.

Like I could understand if you thought both where not a thing.

frozenfrozen

Dogowner55 wrote: »

But do you believe transsexual is a thing? I can't figure out why someone would believe one is a thing and the other isn't.

Like I could understand if you thought both where not a thing.

you think someone talking like they're a member of jurassic 5 is the same thing as what goes on with transsexual people?

Dogowner55

frozenfrozen wrote: »

you think someone talking like they're a member of jurassic 5 is the same thing as what goes on with transsexual people?

Race and sex are gentic at birth, why can you believe one can be wrong so transexuals are a thing but the race can't so transracial can't.

As I said if you thought both couldn't be a thing I would understand. These transracial people obviously feel they where born race so how is it different then feeling born in the wrong sex?

Iwasfrozen

No trans-racialism doesn't exist don't be stupid op.

Gender is a real thing, race in the scientific sense doesn't actually exist. Now if a person identifies with another ethnicity, that's another story. Because their family history, back ground, environment, social circles would have contributed to that.

A good example in Eminem. The guy grew up in black dominated neighbourhood, had black friends, wore "black" clothes, listened to and made a career out of "black" music and even speaks in ebonics. So how can a person be trans-racialist when "race" as we commonly refer to it doesn't even exist in the scientific sense?

Dogowner55

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No trans-racialism doesn't exist don't be stupid op.

Gender is a real thing, race in the scientific sense doesn't actually exist. Now if a person identifies with another ethnicity, that's another story.

So gentic race doesn't exist and different racial group have genetic differences?

So it's the name you have a problem with and transethnic is what it should be called. And people like Dolezal should be seen as black like Jennar seen as a woman.

looksee

What the heck does it matter what racial identity someone wants to identify with. All this nonsense about not having 'earned' the right to be another (very mixed, diluted) race is irrelevant.

There was a programme on bbc some while ago in which white supremacist types in the UK had their genetic history investigated and one woman who made a great deal of fuss about the fact she was white was found to have some black genetic history (I may have got the terminology wrong there but ykwim)

If you go back far enough you will probably find mixed ancestry in most of us, we just go with whatever identity seems logical based on where and to whom we were born. This kind of argument is just interfering gossip and scandal mongering wrapped up as social indignation.

Iwasfrozen

Dogowner55 wrote: »

So gentic race doesn't exist and different racial group have genetic differences?

So it's the name you have a problem with and transethnic is what it should be called. And people like Dolezal should be seen as black like Jennar seen as a woman.

Well no because "transethnic" doesn't make any sense either. If an English child is brought up in Ireland the child may identify as being Irish or part Irish, they may even have an Irish parent and will no doubt share cultural similarities with his peers. Does that make him trans-ethnic? No it just means he has a mixed heritage.

I'm not usually an opponent of the politically correct culture, on the contrary I think it's been beneficial to society but how can we have a term to describe those who identify with another race or ethnicity when both there terms are undefinable.

Dogowner55

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Well no because "transethnic" doesn't make any sense either. If an English child is brought up in Ireland the child may identify as being Irish or part Irish, they may even have an Irish parent and will no doubt share cultural similarities to his peers. Does that make him trans-ethnic? No it just means he has a mixed heritage.

But if the person feel they are black and of that race/ethnicity how is it different then feeling you are the wrong sex. Race and sex are genetic


Both you have to rely on the how the person feels and I can't see how one would be ok and the other not.

FISMA.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

No trans-racialism doesn't exist don't be stupid op.

I see no need for personal attacks Iwasfrozen. The op asks a legitimate question.

If you can choose your gender, why not your race?

NachoBusiness

looksee wrote: »

If you go back far enough you will probably find mixed ancestry in most of us, we just go with whatever identity seems logical based on where and to whom we were born.

Indeed and I see Ben Affleck went on 'Who Do You Think You Are?' recently and they discovered he was from a long line of slave owners (much to his liberal pleasing displeasure). He was in fact so outraged that he somehow managed to convince the producers to edit this finding from the show which went out but sure if we were all so connected to our ancestors, wouldn't it make more sense for him to embrace his ancestor's beliefs and for him to go and buy himself a Mexican or something. I feel who we are socially and politically has a hell of a lot more to do with environment, than it does with genetics.

tl;dr

Phil Lynott was a dub.

Iwasfrozen

Dogowner55 wrote: »

But if the person feel they are black and of that race/ethnicity how is it different then feeling you are the wrong sex. Race and sex are genetic


Both you have to rely on the how the person feels and I can't see how one would be ok and the other not.

How can a person be trans racialist when the concept of race is a man made invention?

I've given the example of Eminem. This guy grew up in black dominated neighbourhood, had black friends, wore "black" clothes, listened to and made a career out of "black" music and even speaks in ebonics. So would you consider him to be a trans racialist black guy?

Links234

Dogowner55 wrote: »

I am conflicted on this, now I am straight non-trans man but I also can't see why there is a difference in a person realising they are not the right sex and a person realising they are the wrong race.

Because they are completely different things, and there is a whole host of scientific evidence showing that transsexuality is a physiological issue, something that happens during fetal development. That's the difference. Here is one example, but there is so many different studies and so much evidence for the biological nature of this, please look up some of the science if you're interested. But I'm not gonna hang around this thread, people usually just bring up the whole "transracial" argument as a way to attack trans people, it's a false equivolance much like people comparing marriage equality to wanting to marry a horse, or whatever, so i'm ducking out before it devolves into any nastiness.

Dogowner55

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How can a person be trans racialist when the concept of race is a man made invention?

I've given the example of Eminem. This guy grew up in black dominated neighbourhood, had black friends, wore "black" clothes, listened to and made a career out of "black" music and even speaks in ebonics. So would you consider him to be a trans racialist black guy?

Eminem doesn't feel like he is black though he white to himself. Lots of people think gender is man made too. But gender and race are not man made their is gentic differences in both. I can't understand how you think race was a man made invention.

Very Bored

I think this is a question of where do you draw the line. What if somebody says they think they are a carrot?

Dogowner55

Links234 wrote: »

Because they are completely different things, and there is a whole host of scientific evidence showing that transsexuality is a physiological issue, something that happens during fetal development. That's the difference.

They are different but the same one is about sex identity and the other race. When transsexual first became a thing it was dismissed like transracial. We need to do further studies.

I can't get my head around how one could be a thing and the othwr not. I don't understand transsexual but am polite and call them there chosen gender, I would do the same and call Dolezal by her chosen race.

frozenfrozen

Dogowner55 wrote: »

Eminem doesn't feel like he is black though he white to himself. Lots of people think gender is man made too. But gender and race are not man made their is gentic differences in both. I can't understand how you think race was a man made invention.

you're mixing up race with ethnicity again...

Dogowner55

Very Bored wrote: »

I think this is a question of where do you draw the line. What if somebody says they think they are a carrot?

My locgic is a human can't be a carrot or say a animal, but a human can be a certain sex or race.

Dogowner55

frozenfrozen wrote: »

you're mixing up race with ethnicity again...

So geneticly a black person is their skin black cause of race or ethnicity?

Iwasfrozen

Dogowner55 wrote: »

So geneticly a black person is their skin black cause of race or ethnicity?

Race. Ethnicity would be cultural values.

Very Bored

Dogowner55 wrote: »

They are different but the same one is about sex identity and the other race. When transsexual first became a thing it was dismissed like transracial. We need to do further studies.

I can't get my head around how one could be a thing and the othwr not. I don't understand transsexual but am polite and call them there chosen gender, I would do the same and call Dolezal by her chosen race.

I don't think you would call her by her chosen race though. People typically don't refer to race when they talk about people. When talking to a transgender person you can specifically choose to call them Mr. on the one hand or Miss/Mrs. on the other, for example, Mr. or Miss/Mrs. Reilly makes it clearly what gender you think they are. People don't generally say hello white Reilly or hello black Reilly. Really, I think its much less of an issue than with gender.

Dogowner55

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Race. Ethnicity would be cultural values.

So the correct term would be transracial, that's what I thought originally too. So Dolezal is transracial

NachoBusiness

Dogowner55 wrote: »

Eminem doesn't feel like he is black though he white to himself. Lots of people think gender is man made too. But gender and race are not man made their is gentic differences in both. I can't understand how you think race was a man made invention.

Just because race itself isn't man-made, doesn't mean that our connection to it and how we choose to internalize and express it, isn't.

It undoubtedly is.

Dogowner55

Very Bored wrote: »

I don't think you would call her by her chosen race though. People typically don't refer to race when they talk about people. When talking to a transgender person you can specifically choose to call them Mr. on the one hand or Miss/Mrs. on the other, for example, Mr. or Miss/Mrs. Reilly makes it clearly what gender you think they are. People don't generally say hello white Reilly or hello black Reilly. Really, I think its much less of an issue than with gender.

But I would fire her cause she was white when clearly she feels she is black

frozenfrozen

Dogowner55 wrote: »

So the correct term would be transracial, that's what I thought originally too. So Dolezal is transracial

you have to be trolling?

Dogowner55 wrote: »

But I would fire her cause she was white when clearly she feels she is black

Dogowner55

Very Bored wrote: »

I don't think you would call her by her chosen race though. People typically don't refer to race when they talk about people. When talking to a transgender person you can specifically choose to call them Mr. on the one hand or Miss/Mrs. on the other, for example, Mr. or Miss/Mrs. Reilly makes it clearly what gender you think they are. People don't generally say hello white Reilly or hello black Reilly. Really, I think its much less of an issue than with gender.

But I wouldn't fire her cause she was white when clearly she feels she is black.

What's going on why can't edit, get a white page

Very Bored

Dogowner55 wrote: »

My locgic is a human can't be a carrot or say a animal, but a human can be a certain sex or race.

Why not? A white human being is a white human being and vice versa. Now, there is nothing wrong with, and little stopping, someone taking an interest in and mixing with people from an alternative group. But a white person isn't suddenly black because they think they are. If we are going to invert that logic then I don't see why it becomes illogical for a person to believe they are a spud or a dog.

Dogowner55

frozenfrozen wrote: »

you have to be trolling?

No I don't understand either, but to me it's about how the pesron feels they are so to me both have to be as valid as each other. You are relying on the person to tell you they feel that sex or race.

Very Bored

Dogowner55 wrote: »

But I wouldn't fire her cause she was white when clearly she feels she is black.

What's going on why can't edit, get a white page

But you shouldn't fire her simply because she is white or black anyway.

Dogowner55

Very Bored wrote: »

Why not? A white human being is a white human being and vice versa. Now, there is nothing wrong with, and little stopping, someone taking an interest in and mixing with people from an alternative group. But a white person isn't suddenly black because they think they are. If we are going to invert that logic then I don't see why it becomes illogical for a person to believe they are a spud or a dog.

But why can a man suddenly be a woman because they think they are. This is my disconnect to me they both are as valid as each other

Hande hoche!

Very Bored wrote: »

I think this is a question of where do you draw the line. What if somebody says they think they are a carrot?

Would that person be Rob Schneider?

Dogowner55

Very Bored wrote: »

But you shouldn't fire her simply because she is white or black anyway.

But she was fired cause she got outed as transracial

Paddy Cow

The difference between Jenner and Rachel, is that Jenner has been transparent about her journey from male to female, whereas Rachel pretended to be black to further her career. People don't like being lied to and that's why Rachel suffered such a backlash.

Calling Rachel "transracial" and comparing her to Jenner is just making a mockery of transgender people. It's a facetious strawman argument and anyone who seriously believes the comparison is valid, I have news for you - you are not a clever intellectual, you are a knob of the highest order.

Eugene Norman

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

How can a person be trans racialist when the concept of race is a man made invention?

I've given the example of Eminem. This guy grew up in black dominated neighbourhood, had black friends, wore "black" clothes, listened to and made a career out of "black" music and even speaks in ebonics. So would you consider him to be a trans racialist black guy?

He's not claiming to be black, is he? therefore obviously no. If he did claim to be black and transracial - also no.

NachoBusiness

Very Bored wrote: »

I think this is a question of where do you draw the line. What if somebody says they think they are a carrot?

Met one once. He really grated on me.

evolving_doors

Links234 wrote: »

Because they are completely different things, and there is a whole host of scientific evidence showing that transsexuality is a physiological issue, something that happens during fetal development. That's the difference.

Interesting, although physiological can be a loaded term (untill scientifically proven).

Take the case of someone who has always thought that they were of the opposite gender to what they were ascribed.. up until very recently some cultures would have said 'nonsense' you 'look' female therefore you are female.. and then with the aid of science it was discovered that, yes indeed this person does actually have male chromosomes. Nothing new there in terms of this debate....

Now lets switch the analogy to someone whose always thought they were from another race.. 'nonsense' their culture proclaims.. 'you look like you are from this race therefore you are'... but then a genetic test reveals that this person (or culture even!) has genetic characteristics closely related to an out side culture. Would this not then vindicate this persons feelings of being transracial?

Im thinking along the lines of the 'recently discovered' Cohen gene in Ethiopia.

InTheTrees

Dogowner55 wrote: »

This woman obviously feels like she is black, how can anyone deny how she feels a person and how is different then a transsexual.

I think dolezal's problem wss that she denied ever being white and lied about it and she used it as a way to advance her career.

I dont think anyone would have a problem with it if she wanted to do it openly.

:cool:

InTheTrees

Dogowner55 wrote: »

But she was fired cause she got outed as transracial

No. She was fired because she lied.

Dogowner55

Paddy Cow wrote: »

The difference between Jenner and Rachel, is that Jenner has been transparent about her journey from male to female, whereas Rachel pretended to be black to further her career. People don't like being lied to and that's why Rachel suffered such a backlash.

Calling Rachel "transracial" and comparing her to Jenner is just making a mockery of transgender people. It's a facetious strawman argument and anyone who seriously believes the comparison is valid, I have news for you - you are not a clever intellectual, you are a knob of the highest order.

But there is plenty of stealth trans women who never tell anyone they where born men, some even married without telling.

Stealth is a huge thing in the trans community, obviously jennar is too in the public to go stealth but a huge amount of trans women do and don't tell people there history's.

Should all stealth trans women be outed and face a backlash for lying about their history

Eugene Norman

Paddy Cow wrote: »

The difference between Jenner and Rachel, is that Jenner has been transparent about her journey from male to female, whereas Rachel pretended to be black to further her career. People don't like being lied to and that's why Rachel suffered such a backlash.

Calling Rachel "transracial" and comparing her to Jenner is just making a mockery of transgender people. It's a facetious strawman argument and anyone who seriously believes the comparison is valid, I have news for you - you are not a clever intellectual, you are a knob of the highest order.

That's not so nice.

Surely the difference is more than just people being truthful or not. I suppose that if race is a social construct like gender is claimed to be, transracialism can exist.

Dogowner55

InTheTrees wrote: »

No. She was fired because she lied.

So if a stealth trans women has a job and it comes out she is trans she should be fired cause she lied?

evolving_doors

sorry, meant the Cohen gene in Zimbabwe

Very Bored

Dogowner55 wrote: »

But why can a man suddenly be a woman because they think they are. This is my disconnect to me they both are as valid as each other

I don't see it as necessary. I can understand why someone might want to change gender. They may want to fulfil a traditional fe/male role, they may want to use things specifically set aside for that gender or they may want to have sex in a certain way. Regardless of whether you are black, white, oriental or any other race you are not, in liberal democratic nations, prohibited from joining in with traditional activities of another race. Personally, I am very interested in many Italian things. I watch Italian TV and films, listen to Italian radio and music, read Italian books and newspapers, watch Italian sport, have Italian friends, have attended typical Italian festivities, eat and drink Italian cuisine. I have access to all those things and nothing blocks me from doing those things. I don't need to define myself as Italian to do that.

Dogowner55

Very Bored wrote: »

I don't see it as necessary. I can understand why someone might want to change gender. They may want to fulfil a traditional fe/male role, they may want to use things specifically set aside for that gender or they may want to have sex in a certain way. Regardless of whether you are black, white, oriental or any other race you are not, in liberal democratic nations, prohibited from joining in with traditional activities of another race. Personally, I am very interested in many Italian things. I watch Italian TV and films, listen to Italian radio and music, read Italian books and newspapers, watch Italian sport, have Italian friends, have attended typical Italian festivities, eat and drink Italian cuisine. I have access to all those things and nothing blocks me from doing those things. I don't need to define myself as Italian to do that.

But you don't need a sex change ro fulfil a gender role opisote of your sex either.

Links234

Very Bored wrote: »

They may want to fulfil a traditional fe/male role..

That's not why people are transgender, it's nothing to do with roles or any such nonsense

Dogowner55

Links234 wrote: »

That's not why people are transgender, it's nothing to do with roles or any such nonsense

Yeah I agree transsexual or transracial has to be more then just a role thing, they must feel deep down they are that gender or race to change change something. You don't need to do that just cause you like certain foods or gender fashion or roles

InTheTrees

Dogowner55 wrote: »

So if a stealth trans women has a job and it comes out she is trans she should be fired cause she lied?

If the lie made the difference between being hired or not being hired then yes of course.

Paramite Pie

Your "race" is your DNA. It's fixed. What you're talking about here is Trans-Culturalism.