Suffering... explain yourself God.

DunnoKiddo

That's the demand God will have to answer to the masses about.

Have you Christians any real answer that doesn't involve empty platitudes?

Fair warning, you're directing your opinions to an embittered soul who lost a friend in a most painful way... and in the past week has been preached at about denying marital equality, yet real issues like human and creature suffering exists enmasse 24-7, are summarily ignored and the only answers proffered are things like "God has his reasons" ...I don't wanna know a God that could possibly tolerate such inhumanity by and on his supposed children and creations. Shame on such a cold-hearted being! "Father" indeed - pushaw!

@SW... sorry for venting in your forum... ban me if you must, but I need some answers.

Deranged96

DunnoKiddo wrote: »

That's the demand God will have to answer to the masses about.

Have you Christians any real answer that doesn't involve empty platitudes?

Fair warning, you're directing your opinions to an embittered soul who lost a friend in a most painful way... and in the past week has been preached at about denying marital equality, yet real issues like human and creature suffering exists in mass proportions 24-7, are summarily ignored and the only answer given are things like "God has his reasons" ...I don't wanna know a God that could possibly tolerate such inhumanity by and on his supposed children and creations. Shame on such a cold-hearted being! "Father" indeed - pushaw!

@SW... sorry for venting in your forum... ban me if you must, but I need some answers.

Religion soothes only the religious. But let's leave it to them, if it works for them, and try not to undermine their faith.

I'm sure a more intelligent answer to the question you pose, rather than "God has his reasons", would be that we only know pleasure by comparison to pain... We can only know paradise in heaven by suffering on earth.

Sorry about your friend.

DunnoKiddo

I work in the church. If questioning undermines faith, then that's a sad state of affairs for Christianity.

I would rather not know pleasure, if it means another person suffers.

Sorry about the world in general.

conditioned games

Life is a test and a challenge where once you leave you will have a time of judgement. That's my take on it. It is up to you how you respond to life's ups and downs, some have it harder and are tested more than others.

Society nowadays has turned it's back on God, replaced with sexual immorality, money and consumerism to fill an empty soul which has lead to ridicule and insults to those that maintain a religious belief.

DunnoKiddo

Makes no sense to my heart or mind. But thanks for sharing.

It was not my intent to insult anyone. I am just looking for answers...clearly in the wrong place, where answers should be found.

homer911

So you are not a Christian and you are blaming a God you don't believe in for the suffering of a friend?

DunnoKiddo

Nope, either I mis-explained my query or you are reading something in that wasn't my intent.

Forgive me if I am coming across as curt, I can't get past the pain at the moment.

Let me re-phrase... a moment, please

Call Me Jimmy

You can't have one without the other and if you have neither you have nothing?

eviltwin

DunnoKiddo wrote: »

Nope, either I mis-explained my query or you are reading something in that wasn't my intent.

Forgive me if I am coming across as curt, I can't get past the pain at the moment.

Let me re-phrase... a moment, please

Maybe there is no God. Maybe bad stuff happens to good people because of bad luck. I'm a non believer and suffering is one of the things that has brought me here. I don't believe that a God would allow things to happen and if so why that person, why not someone else. I'm sorry for your pain and I empathise with where you are but torturing yourself with the Why isn't going to help. You'll never find the answers you seek.

DunnoKiddo

I have worked in the church for more than a few years, and seen behind the curtain, if you will... Not all is as pleasant as it seems, so I have naturally formed doubts is all.

I have always believed in a loving being, supposedly "in charge of the world" (call it God if you like), but given the state of the world, the tremendous, needless suffering so many children, adults and creatures endure on a daily basis, then that God and his plan are messed up!

You and I have more empathy than what is extended to most, by a supposedly in-charge being, who stands idly by watching it all go down - the one fellow that can do something about it, does nothing - niiiiiice! If that is what heaven is like, it sound like hell to me.

DunnoKiddo

eviltwin wrote: »

Maybe there is no God. Maybe bad stuff happens to good people because of bad luck. I'm a non believer and suffering is one of the things that has brought me here. I don't believe that a God would allow things to happen and if so why that person, why not someone else. I'm sorry for your pain and I empathise with where you are but torturing yourself with the Why isn't going to help. You'll never find the answers you seek.

Thanks for replying.
Everyone should be seeking such answers... if there is a God, that is... I am beginning to think, he is not such a loving person after all. If, even someone as I, cant tolerate anothers pain, what kind of being must he be, that he can live with himself, and call himself loving and seek glory for it?

DunnoKiddo

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

You can't have one without the other and if you have neither you have nothing?

So, you are implying that the only way to know intense joy is to know intense torture? Sounds messed up to me!

DunnoKiddo

eviltwin wrote: »

Maybe there is no God. Maybe bad stuff happens to good people because of bad luck. I'm a non believer and suffering is one of the things that has brought me here. I don't believe that a God would allow things to happen and if so why that person, why not someone else. I'm sorry for your pain and I empathise with where you are but torturing yourself with the Why isn't going to help. You'll never find the answers you seek.

But yer right ^ answers are not something anyone has. It's all speculation, and it solves nothing.
Suffering will continue to exist, full stop. And our tolerance of it does not make us closer to God or increase our eventual happiness.

homer911

I know this is going to sound trite but free will has a lot to do with it.. God didn't create the world for people to suffer. That was not his desire for us.

DunnoKiddo

homer911 wrote: »

I know this is going to sound trite but free will has a lot to do with it.. God didn't create the world for people to suffer. That was not his desire for us.

That is a dichotomy, in my mind... We must have free will to learn and grow. But surely he had to know and indeed must now, that immense suffering would and has come about because of it, and alot of it forced upon the innocent. Is there no sense of fairness in such a plan, or is free will the end all? Where is the mercy?

I am not a parent, but if I were, well... if you were a father, you would want to protect your children, would you not? Yet he stands by and watches them in pain and fails to reach out.

dpat1l

I'm going to give a little background as to where my faith came from and I think I can relate to you OP. Basically a family member of mine started suffering severe seizures when he was 10 weeks old and when he was about 4 months, he was clinically dead for ~3 minutes after having an undetected infantile spasm. That was 3 years ago and when all else failed, I turned to God... And it's not like he performed a miracle and I'm not claiming anything out of the ordinary here, but I just found it really comforting to think that there was a higher power there, that for whatever reason decided that this child should be brought to us in the manner he was.... I just realised that I haven't stated explicitly that the child is alive and well (as well as he can be given the circumstances). He's aware, he can't talk (yet) and doesn't communicate... He doesn't eat much solid food, doesn't stand or walk (yet) and can't see as a result of his epilepsy medication. But he still has his own personality, and my family still cherish him. It's not easy, and it's chilling to think 10, 20, 30 years down the line, but I find comfort in the thought that there is something more out there. I think there has to be more than what we can see. I'm not a Jesus-freak. I know there's scientific proof out there for a lot of stuff and it's a great interest of mine, but some of the greatest scientific mysteries out there can't yet be explained and that's where I turn to religion, that maybe it's not complete shít and that there is some reward and that the little baby we had in good health is somewhere in existence where he is not suffering.

_Whimsical_

DunnoKiddo wrote: »

Nope, either I mis-explained my query or you are reading something in that wasn't my intent.

Forgive me if I am coming across as curt, I can't get past the pain at the moment.

Let me re-phrase... a moment, please

Sorry your loss and your pain. I don't think you'll find the answer to your question here or anywhere else. The challenge in life with the really really difficult stuff is not to find the answer to the "whys" but to find ways to live without those answers,whether you believe in God or not. If you're religious you have to ask the question "where in my faith can I take comfort right now" maybe the answer will be gratitude to God for a friend or loved one,maybe it'll be the hope in something bigger, that answers exist but they won't be revealed to you in this life, that's all it ultimately can offer. For some people that's a lot and after time it's enough. For others it'll never fill the void.
I don't think God or religion ever offered a framework through which to understand these things, only ways to try and accept them. There's a full acknowledgement in Christianity for example that suffering in instrisic to life, the cross and the notion of the cross all people carry are central to the religion, so it's not ignored.
I don't have any answers to be honest, it's a question I ask enough myself, but I know there aren't any answers here on this forum or probably anywhere else. I'm inclined to think that anyone who offers you answers is lying.

DunnoKiddo

dpat1l wrote: »

I'm going to give a little background as to where my faith came from and I think I can relate to you OP. Basically a family member of mine started suffering severe seizures when he was 10 weeks old and when he was about 4 months, he was clinically dead for ~3 minutes after having an undetected infantile spasm. That was 3 years ago and when all else failed, I turned to God... And it's not like he performed a miracle and I'm not claiming anything out of the ordinary here, but I just found it really comforting to think that there was a higher power there, that for whatever reason decided that this child should be brought to us in the manner he was.... I just realised that I haven't stated explicitly that the child is alive and well (as well as he can be given the circumstances). He's aware, he can't talk (yet) and doesn't communicate... He doesn't eat much solid food, doesn't stand or walk (yet) and can't see as a result of his epilepsy medication. But he still has his own personality, and my family still cherish him. It's not easy, and it's chilling to think 10, 20, 30 years down the line, but I find comfort in the thought that there is something more out there. I think there has to be more than what we can see. I'm not a Jesus-freak. I know there's scientific proof out there for a lot of stuff and it's a great interest of mine, but some of the greatest scientific mysteries out there can't yet be explained and that's where I turn to religion, that maybe it's not complete shít and that there is some reward and that the little baby we had in good health is somewhere in existence where he is not suffering.

Thank you for sharing your distressing experience and process... My heart goes out to you, your family and this child.

54and56

dpat1l wrote: »

but I find comfort in the thought that there is something more out there.

Which is totally understandable but it doesn't mean there actually is anything out there does it? I may think superstitiously that wearing a particular hat will help me win at poker but I think we both know that's just a load of bull.

dpat1l

Je_suis_Jean wrote: »

<Snip>

Of course nobody has proof, and there's really no point in posting here if that's what you're looking for. It's called a faith for a reason! If you can't believe in something without having solid evidence at hand then that's your business, but don't come on here and mock the one thing that keep some people going

4068ac1elhodqr

This is a very simple really, in order to enjoy a nice jam sandwich on a summers day, you have to of had a fair few ugly wet Marmite ones.

CwG (Neale Donald Walsc) covers this, many other thought leaders, even speak of the the desire/request of the soul to experience every possible angle no matter how good/bad. Forget about the chaps with the sandals/beards in the clouds, we most likely live in a planetary non-time-linear multi-verse with perhaps thousands of lifetimes to cover.

As the famous cheese master R.Keating once said 'life is a roller-coaster'.

DunnoKiddo

dpat1l wrote: »

Of course nobody has proof, and there's really no point in posting here if that's what you're looking for. It's called a faith for a reason! If you can't believe in something without having solid evidence at hand then that's your business, but don't come on here and mock the one thing that keep some people going

^ that was not my intent, I assure you. I was simply trying to find a reason to keep going as well.

dpat1l

DunnoKiddo wrote: »

^ that was not my intent, I assure you. I was simply trying to find a reason to keep going as well.

My apologies, that post was directed at Je Suis Jean, not you DunnoKiddo. You have said nothing to cause offence in my opinion, and I really hope you find something to take comfort in at this difficult time. Even if you can't understand how people can take comfort in religion, there are lots of other ways to put your mind at ease, so make sure you look after yourself

DunnoKiddo

Thank you all for your thoughtful feedback... I was (visibly) angry when I started this thread, for which I apologise... Twas lovely to hear everyone's opinions, pro and con. And thank you for allowing me to talk thru the pain. Cheers all, have a lovely weekend.

Joe1919

Pain is a gift? I think so, especially after reading this book (by a surgeon).

Suffering also can be a good e.g. The fact that I suffer guilt when I do wrong etc.

We cannot live without pain and suffering, so there is a case for having a more positive attitude towards them when they are unavoidable.

http://philipyancey.com/the-gift-of-pain

Mark Tapley

conditioned games wrote: »

Life is a test and a challenge where once you leave you will have a time of judgement. That's my take on it. It is up to you how you respond to life's ups and downs, some have it harder and are tested more than others.

Society nowadays has turned it's back on God, replaced with sexual immorality, money and consumerism to fill an empty soul which has lead to ridicule and insults to those that maintain a religious belief.

I think many have become disillusioned with the church because of the depraved behavior of some of its adherents .The wealth of the institution does not help either.
At least us godless heathens do not need the threat of eternal damnation to behave in a humane manner.
I imagine you are ridiculed for your nonsensical statements rather than your faith(you eejit).

hinault

Suffering has different meanings to different people.

What is suffering?

In Christianity for example adherents may fast and experience hunger as an act of worship and as an act of solidarity who have no choice but to go hungry.

Suffering which cannot be easily explained, nor justified, is probably the hardest topic for people try to reconcile.

frag420

OP i have asked similar questions for years. I have spoken with priests, a couple of bishops and may lay people who work within the church. When I ask them why an all loving and compassionate God allows children to be raped and murdered, why he allows pain and suffering throughout the world, why people are dying of famine, why people are homeless etc all I get in reply is the same stock answer " God works in mysterious ways"!!

So I then ask these people what is mysterious about letting innocent children suffer? What is mysterious about people dying from hunger, having no shelter. being abused by loved ones, getting diseases and dying.....then they go silent!!

Why? Because there is no mystery. Anyone who allows the above atrocities to happen on their watch is nothing more than a <snip>!! I know this will offend many who read this part of boards and I do apologies but how can you stand up for a God that allows so much heartache to happen?


What is the difference between a God that stands by while the people he supposedly made, run around killing, raping and abusing each other and say Hitler, Pol Pot, Iddi Amin, Mugabe, Assad etc. These are all people who sit by and watch their own people get tortured, raped, murdered in the name of GOD are not mysterious, they are scum!

In school I was told that God was a powerful person, a loving and forgiving person.....But if the God who people believe in is willing to sit and allow all this to happen to his people then I have to question the sort of people who believes in him!! He is not powerful, he is lazy and weak!

There is nothing mysterious about being a tyrant. Christians are the first to give out about how people are being treated in certain parts of the world, maybe take a look closer at home and realise that God has set the precedent for being an <snip>......much like Hitler et all.

Before I sign of it was not my intention to offend any Christians here, I just wanted to make a few points that I think need addressing and i sincerely mean that.

OP, don't expect any answers other than the usual excuses!! I hope things work out for you!!

Mark Tapley

hinault wrote: »

Suffering has different meanings to different people.

What is suffering?

In Christianity for example adherents may fast and experience hunger as an act of worship and as an act of solidarity who have no choice but to go hungry.

Suffering which cannot be easily explained, nor justified, is probably the hardest topic for people try to reconcile.

Do Christians really worship God while going hungry as an act of solidarity with the starving ?
Do you really think anybody without food would appreciate your pious act.
The worst thing about it is that many of the starving are probably also praying to the same elusive deity.

frag420

hinault wrote: »

Suffering has different meanings to different people.

What is suffering?

In Christianity for example adherents may fast and experience hunger as an act of worship and as an act of solidarity who have no choice but to go hungry.

Suffering which cannot be easily explained, nor justified, is probably the hardest topic for people try to reconcile.

Why not act in solidarity and give them some food?

Suffering can be explained very easily because there are people, be them God or whomever that sit by and let the suffering happen!! If God was as powerful as she is made out to be then surely she can step in and stop the suffering.....right?

conditioned games

So every time a wrong or suffering arises God is to step in and change it? That doesn't make sense. I know if if my behaviour was directly watched by a higher power with the ability to intervene then my actions would change to what it otherwise would be.

Suffering is part of life, it can be very cruel and can break a person. Life revolves by itself, the human race moves on either to the better or the worse. It is the reaction of that person to life's experiences which includes suffering that they will be judged upon. It is not up to God to monitor everything that happens in the world and intervene like an over controlling police officer.

Quandary

Hi OP,

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

If you genuinely want to believe in God then the responses you get from the ardent believers will make some sense to you. If on the other hand, deep down you don't believe and know you never will truly believe, then the responses you get in this forum will only serve to infuriate you.

I don't usually post in this forum because I have no belief in a God of any type and it's hard to contribute objectively to discussions in here when that is your stance.

My mother died of cancer a few years back when we were relatively young. She was in perfect health and suddenly, one day got a pain in her side. She died 6 weeks later. Although I don't know the details of your specific situation, I feel your pain and can empathise.

It will get better with time though. It will never be the same again but it will slowly get better.

Best of luck.

hinault

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Do Christians really worship God while going hungry as an act of solidarity with the starving ?.

Yes.

As do Muslims during Ramadan.

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Do you really think anybody without food would appreciate your pious act.
The worst thing about it is that many of the starving are probably also praying to the same elusive deity.

You'd have to ask them.

hinault

frag420 wrote: »

Why not act in solidarity and give them some food?

Alms giving is also an act of worship.

homer911

OP, this is a link to a site I refer to from time to time which attempts to answer human questions with biblically based answers. This particular link is on the question of suffering.

http://www.gotquestions.org/search.php?zoom_query=suffering&search.x=0&search.y=0

I would caution on some of the responses above - some names I have never seen on this forum before and therefore perhaps not Christian answers

frag420

homer911 wrote: »

OP, this is a link to a site I refer to from time to time which attempts to answer human questions with biblically based answers. This particular link is on the question of suffering.

http://www.gotquestions.org/search.php?zoom_query=suffering&search.x=0&search.y=0

I would caution on some of the responses above - some names I have never seen on this forum before and therefore perhaps not Christian answers

Does the truth hurt? Surely someone questioning gods lack of compassion to humans can't rock your strong faith in her......can it?

And so what if you have not seen some names here before, what is your point, are non Christian opinions not valid? Christians dont have the monopoly on morals, people were moral long before Christianity came along.

DunnoKiddo

I apologise for inciting a word war. Please let's all get along. We want the same thing - peace, understanding, compassion - whether christian or not. And I thank you all for the insights you offered.

antiskeptic

DunnoKiddo wrote: »

the only answers proffered are things like "God has his reasons" ...I don't wanna know a God that could possibly tolerate such inhumanity by and on his supposed children and creations.

Shame on such a cold-hearted being! "Father"

I believe that the revealed nature of God is multifold. He is utter sacrificial love (represented by father (and mother) motifs, not to speak of concrete action). But he is also utter Justice. And furious Wrath against Sin. We can't pick a single dimension and suppose that the totality of Him (whether expecting only father-like responses or, like many an atheist, objecting to God by parading only his being wrath and judgement)

The world we occupy is a place under a curse: fallen away from God and (justly) subject to the wrath of God expressed in his handing the world over death, decay, misery that sin-infestation brings. But God's love means we're not left without hope. He expresses this love ultimately in his work towards the redemption of mankind - including the sacrifice of himself - hoping that all will be saved. He does this in such a way that also satisfies his being just and wrathful against sin (which is why I believe in Judgement and Hell).

Being part of a fallen, disease and sin-ridden world means we can get to inflict and experience great suffering. God's love doesn't mean we get to escape this suffering but it can, for those who come to know him intimately, mean comfort within suffering. For those who don't know him so, there is suffering with only the comfort offered by the world available to assuage it.

These attributes of God are borne witness to in the Bible throughout. And rather than suppose him possessing some kind of multiple personality disorder (sometimes love, sometimes wrath, sometimes just) it is more accurate to view him as all these things at all times. The way I try to conceive of this is by supposing God's attributes to be in a state of tension: his justice wants to convict for sin, his wrath wants to express righteous anger towards that most horrid putriciation: sin, and his love suppresses full expression of those, for a time, in the hope that his beloved can be rescued from his wrath.


This understanding of God comforts me to a degree through my trials - the world will bring trouble and that is a fact of life in this life - but not a fact surpassed by the overarching reality of God and his bringing about a new world order in which trouble along with the disease-sin which causes it, will be no more. I don't know what I might think should trouble of the magnitude that you're undergoing come my way. Should it come (for example, something horrible happening to my son) then I would hope I would be comforted sufficiently to be accepting of the painful fact of life as the above theology suggests I can be - many have testified to the comfort provided by God through the most gruesome of trials. I might well rail at him as you do now.

Mark Tapley

antiskeptic wrote: »

I believe that the revealed nature of God is multifold. He is utter sacrificial love (represented by father (and mother) motifs, not to speak of concrete action). But he is also utter Justice. And furious Wrath against Sin. We can't pick a single dimension and suppose that the totality of Him (whether expecting only father-like responses or, like many an atheist, objecting to God by parading only his being wrath and judgement)

The world we occupy is a place under a curse: fallen away from God and (justly) subject to the wrath of God expressed in his handing the world over death, decay, misery that sin-infestation brings. But God's love means we're not left without hope. He expresses this love ultimately in his work towards the redemption of mankind - including the sacrifice of himself - hoping that all will be saved. He does this in such a way that also satisfies his being just and wrathful against sin (which is why I believe in Judgement and Hell).

Being part of a fallen, disease and sin-ridden world means we can get to inflict and experience great suffering. God's love doesn't mean we get to escape this suffering but it can, for those who come to know him intimately, mean comfort within suffering. For those who don't know him so, there is suffering with only the comfort offered by the world available to assuage it.

These attributes of God are borne witness to in the Bible throughout. And rather than suppose him possessing some kind of multiple personality disorder (sometimes love, sometimes wrath, sometimes just) it is more accurate to view him as all these things at all times. The way I try to conceive of this is by supposing God's attributes to be in a state of tension: his justice wants to convict for sin, his wrath wants to express righteous anger towards that most horrid putriciation: sin, and his love suppresses full expression of those, for a time, in the hope that his beloved can be rescued from his wrath.


This understanding of God comforts me to a degree through my trials - the world will bring trouble and that is a fact of life in this life - but not a fact surpassed by the overarching reality of God and his bringing about a new world order in which trouble along with the disease-sin which causes it, will be no more. I don't know what I might think should trouble of the magnitude that you're undergoing come my way. Should it come (for example, something horrible happening to my son) then I would hope I would be comforted sufficiently to be accepting of the painful fact of life as the above theology suggests I can be - many have testified to the comfort provided by God through the most gruesome of trials. I might well rail at him as you do now.

Sounds like the attempted justifications of a spouse beater. I love you , but you drive me to punish you.

antiskeptic

Mark Tapley wrote: »

Sounds like the attempted justifications of a spouse beater. I love you , but you drive me to punish you.

This is what you get when you try to drag God down to man-size. The spouse beater isn't justified in beating his spouse. God punishing sin, on the other hand...

Mark Tapley

antiskeptic wrote: »

This is what you get when you try to drag God down to man-size. The spouse beater isn't justified in beating his spouse. God punishing sin, on the other hand...

I'm not dragging God anywhere I don't believe in him . Its the mental gymnastics of his followers I have a problem with. What sin do you imagine the OP committed to be suffering so much.
I hope it wasn't scrumping.
(Sorry OP don't mean to make light of your situation.)

antiskeptic

Mark Tapley wrote: »

I'm not dragging God anywhere I don't believe in him . Its the mental gymnastics of his followers I have a problem with. What sin do you imagine the OP committed to be suffering so much.
I hope it wasn't scrumping.

The answer is in my post: suffering is part and parcel of a fallen world. Death, sickeness and decay cause suffering.

Mark Tapley

antiskeptic wrote: »

The answer is in my post: suffering is part and parcel of a fallen world. Death, sickeness and decay cause suffering.

To worship a creature who causes death sickness and decay is perverse. I don't know how you tell the difference between him and the other fella.

Day Lewin

But surely the whole of Creation is a balancing act. A lion eats an antelope - the deer suffers, but the lion survives. A shark is only born when it has eaten all of its fellow foetal shark siblings in the womb of Mama Shark. Even bacteria are life forms trying to survive; if you or I get sick, we feel it as tragic, but it is not so to the germ.

Humans are altering the climate of this earth and that will change their history and the destiny of many species. But the earth will continue to swing round the sun...this is a mighty Universe, and we aren't the only thing in it. It is a huge symphony that we can only hear a few notes of, and some of them sound like discords.

It's a bit unrealistic (in my opinion) to imagine that we small individuals will be able to see that where one person loses on the swings, another will gain on the roundabouts. It's not that simple and it's not all jam and velvet.

Of course things happen to humans and to animals, plants, and planets, that are not pleasant for those who endure them.
That doesn't mean that the whole Creation has no purpose or no benevolence: on the contrary, all those things present to us as "good" or "bad" only because we cannot see the longer view.

Turtwig

Mod

This is not a thread for Christianity to be defending itself in. Any further posts that aren't relevant to the OP will be deleted or moved at mod discretion. Posters are reminded to adhere to the forum charter. Any further breaches may result in cards or bans. Consider this the formal thread warning. Keep to topic, keep to charter and you won't have any problems. Before posting ask yourself if this is the appropriate thread or forum for your post.

Thanks

frag420

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod

This is not a thread for Christianity to be defending itself in. Any further posts that aren't relevant to the OP will be deleted or moved at mod discretion. Posters are reminded to adhere to the forum charter. Any further breaches may result in cards or bans. Consider this the formal thread warning. Keep to topic, keep to charter and you won't have any problems. Before posting ask yourself if this is the appropriate thread or forum for your post.

Thanks

Ok, forgive me!

J C

Mark Tapley wrote: »

To worship a creature who causes death sickness and decay is perverse. I don't know how you tell the difference between him and the other fella.

It is very easy actually ...
God is a God or life, love and mercy. He is also a God of justice ... and that is why the wages of sin is death ... but but the gift that God freely gives is everlasting life found in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The fateful decision of one man to follow the 'other fellow' is why we are where we are in relation to death, sicknesss and decay ... that leads to so much suffering.

... and Jesus Christ's atoning death offers each one of us the means to escape God's justice and to receive His mercy instead.

indioblack

antiskeptic wrote: »

I believe that the revealed nature of God is multifold. He is utter sacrificial love (represented by father (and mother) motifs, not to speak of concrete action). But he is also utter Justice. And furious Wrath against Sin. We can't pick a single dimension and suppose that the totality of Him (whether expecting only father-like responses or, like many an atheist, objecting to God by parading only his being wrath and judgement)

The world we occupy is a place under a curse: fallen away from God and (justly) subject to the wrath of God expressed in his handing the world over death, decay, misery that sin-infestation brings. But God's love means we're not left without hope. He expresses this love ultimately in his work towards the redemption of mankind - including the sacrifice of himself - hoping that all will be saved. He does this in such a way that also satisfies his being just and wrathful against sin (which is why I believe in Judgement and Hell).

Being part of a fallen, disease and sin-ridden world means we can get to inflict and experience great suffering. God's love doesn't mean we get to escape this suffering but it can, for those who come to know him intimately, mean comfort within suffering. For those who don't know him so, there is suffering with only the comfort offered by the world available to assuage it.

These attributes of God are borne witness to in the Bible throughout. And rather than suppose him possessing some kind of multiple personality disorder (sometimes love, sometimes wrath, sometimes just) it is more accurate to view him as all these things at all times. The way I try to conceive of this is by supposing God's attributes to be in a state of tension: his justice wants to convict for sin, his wrath wants to express righteous anger towards that most horrid putriciation: sin, and his love suppresses full expression of those, for a time, in the hope that his beloved can be rescued from his wrath.


This understanding of God comforts me to a degree through my trials - the world will bring trouble and that is a fact of life in this life - but not a fact surpassed by the overarching reality of God and his bringing about a new world order in which trouble along with the disease-sin which causes it, will be no more. I don't know what I might think should trouble of the magnitude that you're undergoing come my way. Should it come (for example, something horrible happening to my son) then I would hope I would be comforted sufficiently to be accepting of the painful fact of life as the above theology suggests I can be - many have testified to the comfort provided by God through the most gruesome of trials. I might well rail at him as you do now.

If you believe in an omnipotent God then all that occurs within his creation must be attributable to that creator. Even the operation of free will, if it can be explained against an omnipotent God, is functioning within the confines of God's creation.
Further, if the world has fallen away from God it has done so within the parameters God has set for existence.
It may not be an explanation required of God as the thread title suggests - but a redefining of what the creator is- if there is one.

J C

indioblack wrote: »

If you believe in an omnipotent God then all that occurs within his creation must be attributable to that creator. Even the operation of free will, if it can be explained against an omnipotent God, is functioning within the confines of God's creation.

... True ... but the point is that free-will operates independently of an omnipotent God who has granted it ... and He therefore bears no moral responsibilty for any evil committed by His creatures using their free-will ... and God therefore doesn't have to explain Himself for something, like suffering, that He bears no responsibility for.

indioblack wrote: »

Further, if the world has fallen away from God it has done so within the parameters God has set for existence.
It may not be an explanation required of God as the thread title suggests - but a redefining of what the creator is- if there is one.

I agree.

frag420

J C wrote: »

... True ... but the point is that free-will operates independently of an omnipotent God who has granted it ... and He therefore bears no moral responsibilty for any evil committed by His creatures using their free-will ... and God therefore doesn't have to explain Himself for something, like suffering, that He bears no responsibility for.

I agree.

So what your saying is that the great God who created all we have before us both in the past and into the future has a get out of jail free card!!

Surely he should realise by now that he has made a mistake and time he grew a pair, admitted his mistake and corrected it. What if I left a few guns, knives and some poison in a school and a couple of teenagers got their hands on them and either killed themselves or each other? Can I just say that its their fault, they have there own free will and its nothing to do with me?

I would have more respect for a God that would admit their mistake and correct it than one that hides behind mystery and relies on humans to make up excuses on his behalf!!

indioblack

J C wrote: »

... True ... but the point is that free-will operates independently of an omnipotent God who has granted it ... and He therefore bears no moral responsibilty for any evil committed by His creatures using their free-will ... and God therefore doesn't have to explain Himself for something, like suffering, that He bears no responsibility for.

I agree.

It's difficult to imagine a world without the negative forces - negative as we perceive them. Is our existence only perceptible in the contrast between what we call positive and negative?
I suppose this is ok in an abstract debate - to see suffering as an obvious part of life - experiencing the reality and how we respond to it emotionally is the hard part.