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What does masculinity mean to you?
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09-07-2015 6:57pm#1
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For me it is meaningless. It is a word that is almost a throw back to archaic gender roles that have been rendered meaningless by most aspects of modernity. But at the same time it may be a life line for many in a time of doubt where they are not sure what to do - so they can consult back to what a "masculine version of me" {or insert your equivalent in a debate over a similar word} might do.
I am not sure if I have lived too long - or not long enough - but I have a feeling that we fall back on concepts like this when all else is lost. The "buck stops with me" idea Wibbs wonderfully presents above - but perhaps in the wrong place. The Buck Stops with all of us every time. And we have a lot more to fall back on other than what sex or sexuality we happen to be. "Masculinity" to me therefore means nothing more than a set of knee jerk reactions one might fall back on when otherwise uncertain.
I would take individuality over any other "inity" any time
Actually one of the reasons I subbed to this forum in the first place is I was entirely unsure what a good modern definition of "gentleman" even was and I hoped to find out quickly and easily. I didnt - but I liked some of the regulars to stick around all the same - and I still hope to have a good modern useful definition of the word pop up sometime soon 0 -
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I hope it's ok to quote from the sexism thread, but for me personally, it's easier to define masculinity by what it isn't, and so when I read the article linked by newport yesterday -Article in yesterday's IT
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/time-for-men-to-play-their-part-in-ending-domestic-abuse-1.2276576
Well intentioned guy outlining men need to step up in the battle against domestic violence on women, which is all well and good. But as per usual, men are not victims of domestic violence, only women. After side-stepping the fact that a large percentage of DV victims are men, he then appears baffled as to why men are not engaging with women activists on this. He uses the quote:
"For decades, feminism was supposed to be women’s work, though women can no more mitigate sexism without engaging men than people of colour can address racism without the participation of white people…"
I wonder if anti-crime groups who laid the blame for crime predominantly on black people would still be baffled as to why black people might not then subsequently engage with them?
It's a pity, because the motive and the idea behind the article is good.
I thought "That's a... terrible idea!". I was perplexed that any man could think it was a good idea to have themselves... 'emotionally neutered'. I just thought, 'this idiot can't be for real surely?'. He talks about domestic violence being a gender struggle and how his organisation is aiming to "help men give up their power" or some shyte. Honestly, it angers me that an organisation like this would ever get funding while organisations like AMEN struggle for every cent.
"Join women as gender activists". It's this sort of shyte, same nonsense as the "he for she" campaign and the godawful "man up" campaign, that make a complete balls of appealing to men's instincts, rather than their emotions.
Whether it's social conditioning or whatever, in my experience, men's thinking is generally more instinctive, whereas women are generally far more considerate of the emotional investment in anything they do.
There are always of course exceptions, something I'm discovering a fair bit more lately, and they're certainly not the norm, but I posted this in another thread earlier today -One eyed Jack wrote: »I feel like I stepped into some bizarre "twilight zone" on the bus here where the two young girls in the seats beside me are noshing down on chinese takeaway, and the group of young lads taking up all the seats at the back of the bus are talking about "oh 5% body fat is the lowest you can go" something, so curiosity got the better of me as I had to check did a young man actually come out with something so stupid, the ballsqueezer wearing wimp had his feet up on the arm rests of the seat in front like he was stirruped up about to give birth to an iphone any minute... :rolleyes:
*earphones in, sunglasses on*, that's better (just in time too as the two young ones have started singing along to Rihanna!
)
It felt bizarre because it was like the masculine and feminine behaviours had undergone a complete switcheroo. I have to admit I found it very unsettling that young men were behaving like a pack of young girls, and the young girls didn't give a damn about their figures or anything else. I thought it was great to see the girls so confident in themselves, but I genuinely wonder is the idea of masculinity lost on young men?
I can't remember a time I was ever that vain, insecure or self-conscious as those guys. I think men can express themselves and their emotions and bond just fine without becoming eunuchs.
That being said, MRA movements don't inspire me with confidence either as they speak of men as victims rather than espousing a positive image of masculinity and what it means to be a man.0 -
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To me as a woman (<interloper>) masculinity is, same as femininity, about a person being entirely comfortable in their own skin. Comfortable and confident about it. From which it follows, that masculinity is a very attractive quality in a man.
The more comfortable and confident you are in yourself, the less of the emotional immune system allergies (TM by Wibbs) will ever be a problem. You won't be bothered about any perceived challenges to your masculinity or femininity, because they will not speak to you the same as they would to another, less confident or more insecure, person.
Take Eddie Izzard, for example. I see a man there who is so confident in his masculinity, that he in fact enjoys subverting the traditional masculine stereotypes of "what a man should look like". I have the biggest celeb crush on him: intelligent, witty, likes to challenge himself on every level, intellectually (doing stand up in French), physically (40 marathons in 50 days), socially (performing in drag). That's what masculinity means to me, a supreme confidence and therefore a complete openness to a challenge.
In this case, it is a man in lipstick, nail polish and high heels who makes my ovaries twitch. 0 -
Hardly comfortable in his own skin then by that standard surely?
Comfortable and confident and secure in themselves is definitely masculine in men though the same as comfortable and confident and secure in themselves is definitely feminine in women, and it's an attractive quality in both. Masculinity and femininity IMO represent different sides of the same coin in both men and women, and that's why for me at least, I don't like this idea of masculine and feminine traits being seen somehow as negative stereotyping or any of the rest of it.
I'd prefer to see young men being given positive examples of masculinity, like Eddie doing marathons or doing stand-up in French, but the whole applying make-up and heels and the whole lot?
By that standard both Panti Bliss and Caitlin Jenner are masculine. I'd say that was stretching the definition of masculinity myself tbh.
Twitchy ovaries... 0 -
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One eyed Jack wrote: »Hardly comfortable in his own skin then by that standard surely?
Can you elaborate on this, please? I'm not sure I'm getting what you want to say. You don't think that Eddie Izzard is comfortable in his skin because he sometimes performs in drag, is that it? Well I see it as him being very comfortable in his skin.
Caitlyn Jenner self-identifies as a woman. I wouldn't see her as a masculine woman, no, as she seems to be much more comfortable with her femininity than her masculine traits.
Rory O'Neill would be more what I'd be talking about, yes. Fair enough if this doesn't seem masculine to you. I think that for me, masculine/feminine is way more about what is going on in someone's head than what they wear or their mannerisms or any other outward thing that conforms to a stereotype.0 -
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My own experience wasn't great in an Irish rugby obsessed schools context and absolutely not caused by my peers, but by the staff!
I wasn't really into rugby, more into basketball, liked a bit of mountain biking and triathlon and stuff like that
Would also have been fairly well turned out, liked having a decent hair style, would be fairly outgoing, opinionated, into media-ish stuff as a career etc
Decided I didn't want to play rugby and got basically taunted as a "sissy" a "wuss" and so on by *staff*!!!
One of them even called me "twinkle toes" because I said I didn't want to play rugby because I thought it was too dangerous and I didn't want ear injuries.
The lads were 100% great the older staff just saw 6'2 guy not wanting to play rugby so attacked my masculinity on a regular basis!
Literally had to put up with "well what do you think of ....? Twinkle toes down the back there!"
Couldn't get through a week without one of the rugby coaches trying to convince me to play either. Really got annoying !
To add to the problem I'm bi, so that was going on in my head at the time too, so getting my sense of being a man questioned everyday wasn't exactly very helpful or pleasant!
Probably shouldn't have put up with it, but I did.
I just watched a great classic flick, "From Here To Eternity" the other week - was on the telly. Watch if you haven't seen.
Reading your post, it was the case of: where did I hear this story just recently? (Ok, in the film it's not the school but the army, and it's not rugby, but boxing, however otherwise the same situation!) 0 -
I just watched a great classic flick, "From Here To Eternity" the other week - was on the telly. Watch if you haven't seen.
Reading your post, it was the case of: where did I hear story this just recently? (Ok, in the film it's not the school but the army, and it's not rugby, but boxing, however otherwise the same situation!)
Probably where the they learnt how to teach lol0 -
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Can you elaborate on this, please? I'm not sure I'm getting what you want to say. You don't think that Eddie Izzard is comfortable in his skin because he sometimes performs in drag, is that it? Well I see it as him being very comfortable in his skin.
I think Pawwed Rig snipped out the bit of your post I had highlighted, may have quoted too much just to highlight one point but yeah, I don't see what he does even as drag, it's not like he's even trying to be another persona like Panti. I get what you mean by the way he's still masculine despite wearing make up and heels and varnish, etc, but I'd say the same if a woman had herself overdone to that extent.
Julian Clary used do the same. The only difference between them is that Eddie is actually entertaining, whereas Clary is just an annoying attention seeker.Caitlyn Jenner self-identifies as a woman. I wouldn't see her as a masculine woman, no, as she seems to be much more comfortable with her femininity than her masculine traits.
Yes, that's exactly my point. Despite some people's protestations that gender is a social construct and gender stereotypes are bad for society and so on, it's people like Caitlyn Jenner, Chaz Bono and Aydian Dowling are problematic for that whole ideology. The reality is that there are separate and identifiable concepts of masculinity and femininity and they're can't just be put down to "gender stereotyping social constructs".Rory O'Neill would be more what I'd be talking about, yes. Fair enough if this doesn't seem masculine to you. I think that for me, masculine/feminine is way more about what is going on in someone's head than what they wear or their mannerisms or any other outward thing that conforms to a stereotype.
The reason I use the example of Panti Bliss is because she promotes herself as "Ireland's most famous gender discombobulator", and the fact is, there's no discombobulation going on there. It's pretty damn obvious he's a man that looks like a vicious clown (I don't know if you caught her on Miriam O Callaghan last night but christ, not good!), and that's why either masculinity or femininity isn't just what goes on in someone's head, or their mannerisms, or how they present to the world, or other behaviour. It's a whole culmination of factors.
It's not about "conforming" to stereotypes, but observed stereotypical behaviour, and that's why I'm just as much against the idea of trying to force or "encourage" children away from certain activities and behaviours in order to promote an adult vision of "non-conformity".0 -
One eyed Jack wrote: »I think Pawwed Rig snipped out the bit of your post I had highlighted, may have quoted too much just to highlight one point but yeah, I don't see what he does even as drag, it's not like he's even trying to be another persona like Panti. I get what you mean by the way he's still masculine despite wearing make up and heels and varnish, etc, but I'd say the same if a woman had herself overdone to that extent.
You'd say the same - the same what? That a woman is not comfortable in her skin if wearing too much lipstick/overdone? But Eddie is never overdone, he does it tastefully and just right! :cool:
For a woman, I'd equally say she's comfortable in her skin/her femininity when not afraid of playing a bit against the stereotypes, e.g. wearing a man's suit to an occasion and making herself look more androgynous. I think this type of thing is incredibly hot in both men and women, and I do think it's down to confidence, even moreso maybe with ordinary people who aren't performers, and therefore don't have a "legitimate" reason to kick the stereotypical once in a while.
The society still has certain dress codes and certain behaviours very much in the set grooves for both genders, although not as much as before, but still. Playing with it is admirable, although of course on a small scale admirable.
I like to see people rebelling no matter the scale, I like to see people be different, as long as they are expressing themseves - it's interesting 0 -
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Pawwed Rig wrote: »Perhaps but ime more little girls opt (or are coerced) into accepting the mother/princess/homemaker/beauty toys than opt for the science based toys. And ultimately the choice of a large percentage of women is to take the traditional role society has assigned them regardless of how good they were at science.
You'll see this a lot with toys that should be non gender specific like a scooter. There is one in green - very gender neutral - and then one in pink just for girls. Like wtf, is the green one not okay on its own?
Ultimately parents are to blame, I've seen this a lot with a friend of mine who has recently had a baby girl, all her facebook posts have people replying about how her husband and son will have to protect the daughter from men as she grows, how she is a little princess...all very light hearted but ultimately buying into the idea that women and men have very specific roles both pretty negative0 -
You'd say the same - the same what? That a woman is not comfortable in her skin if wearing too much lipstick/overdone? But Eddie is never overdone, he does it tastefully and just right! :cool:
For a woman, I'd equally say she's comfortable in her skin/her femininity when not afraid of playing a bit against the stereotypes, e.g. wearing a man's suit to an occasion and making herself look more androgynous. I think this type of thing is incredibly hot in both men and women, and I do think it's down to confidence, even moreso maybe with ordinary people who aren't performers, and therefore don't have a "legitimate" reason to kick the stereotypical once in a while.
The society still has certain dress codes and certain behaviours very much in the set grooves for both genders, although not as much as before, but still. Playing with it is admirable, although of course on a small scale admirable.
I like to see people rebelling no matter the scale, I like to see people be different, as long as they are expressing themseves - it's interesting
I see where you're coming from alright (though gender bending was never my thing personally), but I'd still say that even challenging stereotypes has it's place. Fine if adults choose to do it for themselves (looking at you David Beckham in your sarong and your wife's underwear), but it's not something I personally think we should be encouraging in children until they themselves are actually able to understand concepts like masculinity and femininity.
I don't see anything wrong with raising a male and encouraging him to engage in masculine activities, discouraging ideas like dressing up in women's clothing and so on, until he is old enough to understand that men in society really don't wear dresses and so on. That's why David Beckham got the piss ripped outta him when he decided it was a good idea to wear a garment that looked like a skirt.0 -
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One eyed Jack wrote: »I see where you're coming from alright (though gender bending was never my thing personally), but I'd still say that even challenging stereotypes has it's place. Fine if adults choose to do it for themselves (looking at you David Beckham in your sarong and your wife's underwear), but it's not something I personally think we should be encouraging in children until they themselves are actually able to understand concepts like masculinity and femininity.
I don't see anything wrong with raising a male and encouraging him to engage in masculine activities, discouraging ideas like dressing up in women's clothing and so on, until he is old enough to understand that men in society really don't wear dresses and so on. That's why David Beckham got the piss ripped outta him when he decided it was a good idea to wear a garment that looked like a skirt.
If I had a son, I wouldn't be deliberately raising him in the spirit of going against the conventions, either. There is no point in trying to foist my penchant for the unconventional and for the challenging of societal norms on someone else. I would fully support him if he expressed such tendencies in and of himself, though. Just like I would my daughter (although as it turns out she's just about the "girliest" little girl you could imagine - just my luck! :pac: JOKE)
I guess the whole thrust of my posts is that I think individualism and being different is to be fostered and protected where possible and within reason - there's no point in scandalising and antagonising one's entire social environment either. But it is always good to try to open things up a bit, show people the sky hasn't fallen in and you're not any less of a man for wearing a hairband or some eyeliner ("guyliner"). ONLY IF you are so inclined as a man, of course. 0 -
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