Does it pay to do your own silage?

Fox999

Does it pay to buy in machinery to do your own silage rather than getting contractors in.

I've been working out the costs and making your own bales certainly does pay off but its drawing them all in that's the problem.

On the other hand buying the gear for pit silage is quite expensive and also trying to get labourers at the time of year you need them can be quite tough!

Count Mondego

It all depends on your scale really. Anything around 30-50 acres of silage couldn't pay you to have your own gear. By the time you have it paid back, you have to change, not to mention breakdowns and extra wear on tractors. And if you've an off farm job you have to factor in your time that could be spent earning money.

rock_face

It depends on a number of factors - although for me it would be primarily be your mechanical sympathy and access to willing and competent drivers. If you take your time with the machinery and not be driving around at full revs forcing the grass at a high pace then things will be fine.

Machinery will last a long time if serviced and maintained correctly. However, many farmers are experts only in bodging. Silage equipment can be complex enough machinery - especially balers. You'd need to be able to maintain it yourself including replacing bearings on the rollers (which can be a tricky replacement at times), troubleshooting issues out in the field and also be aware of servicing.

If you need to pull in a mechanic to do all this work then it is eating into the price difference and makes the enterprise less feasible. The amount of machinery about that has never at least seen a grease gun is shameful. Although, I think the younger generation are a bit more savvy in this respect.

Wrappers are fairly straightforward to maintain. You've got a main bearing on the table and the cut and tie system. Most competent people should be able to take care of it - with the exception of the table bearing replacement.

There is a good number of second hand wrappers and balers about and as the number of them increase the prices keep falling. Combi's are still a bit on the expensive side IMO, but it potentially frees and tractor/driver for stackign and requires less storage space (you'd be wanting to store it inside when not used). If you purchase wisely and take care they will last you a long time.

To say you need to change by the time it would be paid off is a falsehood. Purchase a decend used item and maintain it correctly and it will last for a very long time. Again, this all cames back to mechanical sympathy. My father was a mechanic and takes care of ours well - it gets well serviced and whatever bits are needed are replaced with the correct items. I'm sure some will scoff at this, but that's a big part of the reason why they can't/don't have one. You have to expect to maintain and repair these items - if not, then you're best off leaving these worries with the contractor.

Not sure about off-farm job as a reason not to purchase. Few people will be able to make anything in a day which would make a dent in paying the contractor. I'd be more concerned about the ability to get in some additional drivers who have mechanical sympathy and trustworthy with €xx,000 worth of machinery. You'd want them for free too - paying folk to help out again eats into the margins.

You'd need to consider all the above and also figure out the cost to mow, labour, purchase plastic and net, diesel and all other overheads and then compare them against what a contractor charges for the service. From that you can estimate the time until you have paid off the capital and are baling for cost (wrap, net, diesel, maintenance) alone.

I can't speak personally for clamp silage.

TLDR: If you ain't a good mechanic or doing vast numbers, don't bother.

agriman27

I think silage wagons are great for any man with land near the pit. Neighbour of mine has a handy sized krone wagon, he mows himself and gets it raked into 20fts by a balerman and hires in a digger on the clamp. It doesn't take him long to lift a lot of grass, I'd say he has good savings and nice chop length and he can cut away when he wants, no waiting around, quality loss

f140

I do all my own silage. the silage harvester itself is the hardest to maintain/least reliable. I think really that it would pay for every farmer with 50 acres + to have there own mower and mow it themselves for contractors or otherwise. I only have a trailed harvester so loader- terex 860 will push it up with ease.

Sam Kade

I make 3-400 bales a year with my own gear. The machinery is old and long since paid for

oxjkqg

It works for certain men and in certain cases, every individual case is different.
- reliability of contractors
- bales or pit
- acerage of silage done
- labour situation
- ability to mind and look after gear/technical ability
- the ability to take a block out in 1 hit
- size of farm and the ability to designate time to cut bale wrap chop push up stack ted rake whatever

A lot of it also comes down to the individuals fetish for gear and machinery :-)

mythos110

Ok, so I've been cutting my own silage since 2006. Worked with a contractor for about 5 years before that and also worked as an agricultural mechanic for a year before college. We started thinking about it like most lads, because we had 2x ~110 hp 4wd tractors parked in the yard while contractors were zooming around the place. We needed to buy a mower anyway so we decided to purchase a JD1365. We also had a 15ft silage trailer so we went and got a 16ft as well. The harvester we got was a JF900 which we picked up very right and we also got a loader and another tractor. Total spend in year one was about 41k. We worked away picking over 100 acres/year for the following couple of years typically picking about 35 odd acres/day. As previously mentioned, unless you are capable and fond of spannering, don't even begin to consider cutting your own pit silage.

Since then, my brother has added another tractor to the fleet (started farming himself) and we replaced the loader, added 2 trailers etc. Last year we replaced the harvester for a 1050. We have invested a good bit in the last few years so that this year we picked nearly 50 acres in one day and had bugger all to spend in repairs.

Not including repayments, its costing us around €35/acre to pick grass (diesel/wages - excl my own and my brother- & repairs). Its up to individuals whether they want to re-invest the rest of the savings into replacing the machines. We have noticed our silage quality increase dramatically as the pit gets rolled properly and we can cut in fine weather.

Trailers will last a lifetime if they are half minded. Mower is used for all mowing around both farms and requires a bit of maintenance. Loader and tractors are very useful throughout the rest of the year.

The 2 key items are the harvester and loader. Anything else you will get at short notice if needs be.

Apologies for the essay!!!

howdee

It does , but for me Labour is the killer.
I cut around 30 acres for myself with a double chop, the oils lad does the pit and the job of getting someone to draw in is a struggle every year.

mythos110

howdee wrote: »

It does , but for me Labour is the killer.
I cut around 30 acres for myself with a double chop, the oils lad does the pit and the job of getting someone to draw in is a struggle every year.

I'm lucky enough with the labour. If you are picking the acres then you can afford to pay properly. I give the lads 100-150/day depending on age/ability etc. Always manage to get at least 2 good lads and maybe a muppet or a young lad thrown in for experience. Also put 2 way radios in all the machines so I can let a roar at a lad for doing something stupid!!:D

td5man

howdee wrote: »

It does , but for me Labour is the killer.
I cut around 30 acres for myself with a double chop, the oils lad does the pit and the job of getting someone to draw in is a struggle every year.

Changed from double chop to a wagon about 5 years ago, no more labour problems.

Greengrass1

mythos110 wrote: »

Ok, so I've been cutting my own silage since 2006. Worked with a contractor for about 5 years before that and also worked as an agricultural mechanic for a year before college. We started thinking about it like most lads, because we had 2x ~110 hp 4wd tractors parked in the yard while contractors were zooming around the place. We needed to buy a mower anyway so we decided to purchase a JD1365. We also had a 15ft silage trailer so we went and got a 16ft as well. The harvester we got was a JF900 which we picked up very right and we also got a loader and another tractor. Total spend in year one was about 41k. We worked away picking over 100 acres/year for the following couple of years typically picking about 35 odd acres/day. As previously mentioned, unless you are capable and fond of spannering, don't even begin to consider cutting your own pit silage.

Since then, my brother has added another tractor to the fleet (started farming himself) and we replaced the loader, added 2 trailers etc. Last year we replaced the harvester for a 1050. We have invested a good bit in the last few years so that this year we picked nearly 50 acres in one day and had bugger all to spend in repairs.

Not including repayments, its costing us around €35/acre to pick grass (diesel/wages - excl my own and my brother- & repairs). Its up to individuals whether they want to re-invest the rest of the savings into replacing the machines. We have noticed our silage quality increase dramatically as the pit gets rolled properly and we can cut in fine weather.

Trailers will last a lifetime if they are half minded. Mower is used for all mowing around both farms and requires a bit of maintenance. Loader and tractors are very useful throughout the rest of the year.

The 2 key items are the harvester and loader. Anything else you will get at short notice if needs be.

Apologies for the essay!!!

What's it costing /ac Inc repayments?
It definitely does not pay and that's coming from someone who owns all there own gear for silage

f140

my honest opinion is that the biggest drawback with silage is staff. I am lucky that I have enough family to help sort it out. family will normaly mind the kit there put on better whereas an outsider really wont give care if he cuts a tyre/ turns the trailer head over heals or whatever.

il gatto

If it's only for yourself, there's no need to spend massive money. I see lads with the biggest, bestest, newest everything and only doing 50-60 acres a year. No need for it. It's like an arms race to have stuff at least as good as the neighbours.
Buy secondhand, fix as much as possible yourself, grease regularly and fix/grease evrything when the season is over. People thrash machines and park them up in September and wonder why they break down the next May.
I know several guys who started using contractors back late 90s but who've gone back to doing stuff themselves. You can mow when the grass is right, when the weather suits, when you have the time, rather than waiting days for 3 young lads to turn up in 150hp John Deeres and bomb around the place with the rain coming down. After a few years your machines are paid for and you're saving. Cheaper to pay a driver for a week than get contractors in.
Also, buy machines in Nov/Dec. Not many looking for stuff and people often look to shift excess stuff to have some extra cash for Christmas. Also gives you 6 months to do some fixing/adjusting before you need it.

mythos110

Greengrass1 wrote: »

What's it costing /ac Inc repayments?
It definitely does not pay and that's coming from someone who owns all there own gear for silage

As I said, its difficult to say because it depends on what you replace. Lads often replace tractors etc for tax purposes doing day to day farming but if you're cutting your own silage then you are inclined to write that down to cutting the silage even though that might only account for 30hrs/year on the tractor! Also, our loader puts up more hours cleaning out sheds and loading muck spreader etc than pushing up silage. Having the extra gear speeds up a lot of other jobs around the farm which nobody ever seems to take account of. (e.g. a 10ft rake full of stakes makes throwing out fencing posts a doddle or not having to drop agitator to put on tank to spread a load of slurry for more water etc....)

I don't expect to buy any more gear for the next 8-10 years so at a stretch I would say around €55-65/ac incl repayments (including tractors). I don't buy new. Everything gets well serviced and looked after and also has good trade in value if I do decide to upgrade.

Also bear in mind that a fair bit of time goes into repairs/servicing etc so you could also add in another 5 to 10/ac for that and our own time when cutting but this may be discounted by the efficiencies in the first paragraph

farmerjj

Would it be worth while in buying a 2nd hand 10foot trailed mower for cutting around 130acres of silage, often thought about it.How much are 2nd hand mowers going for?

Sam Kade

farmerjj wrote: »

Would it be worth while in buying a 2nd hand 10foot trailed mower for cutting around 130acres of silage, often thought about it.How much are 2nd hand mowers going for?

For that acreage you would want to be buying new. It's very hard to pick up a good secondhand mower.

Farmer Pudsey

It is the hidden costs most lads fail to see. I speaking from a drystock point of view. Most 100ish acre farms could be run with a 70-90HP 4WD tractor and a 60ish 2WD. Even going larger by keeping your system simple you can keep machinery to a minimum. By keeping machinery small you keep your diesel bill low as well.

Lots of lads complain about spending too much time farming but a lot of the work they take on is earning less than 10 euro/hour. Yes for the lad that is really machinery savvy and can pick up machinery cheap and fix it himself and have large scale then it may be cheaper to do some of your own contracting. But when farmers factor there costings they need to cost in all there costs.

That means that if I am running a 100+ HP tractor to do a bit of slurry or to pull a silage trailer or a mower what extra costs is that adding into the system. The loader I need for silage do I need it to clean out sheds or will the 4WD tractor with a powerlink box and bucket/grab on the front do the same job even if it takes a little longer. Or will Tommy down the road with the backhoe be as cheap in the long run

il gatto

Ya. Apart from a silage harvester, there's no need for huge machines. I was always told that running light machinery off big tractors was bad for it. Too much torque. Don't need 130hp coursing through a haybob. Most people have a small and large tractor. And many a middle sized one. Run the right machines and save diesel and expensive tyres. And service them.

yellow50HX

farmerjj wrote: »

Would it be worth while in buying a 2nd hand 10foot trailed mower for cutting around 130acres of silage, often thought about it.How much are 2nd hand mowers going for?

Picked up a disc mower for ourselves to cut silage and do some topping and forward mowing. Had looked into other equipment like a baler and wrapper too but the extra expense of maintaining them and the time of also of actually running them wouldn't be ideal for me. Might look at a trailer for drawing in the bales as at present I use a keltec. I might change the trailer here and get one that can be fitted with an extenstion that I could load with the digger and tip off in the yard for the wrapper stacker.

Zr105

Sam Kade wrote: »

For that acreage you would want to be buying new. It's very hard to pick up a good secondhand mower.

I'd disagree completely, a 10ft trailed is well North of €20k new, split that (€20k)over say 5years it's working out at €30/acre before you account for a tractor pulling it, diesel, blades and driver. You'd get someone to mow it for €20..

tomieen jones

mythos110 wrote: »

I'm lucky enough with the labour. If you are picking the acres then you can afford to pay properly. I give the lads 100-150/day depending on age/ability etc. Always manage to get at least 2 good lads and maybe a muppet or a young lad thrown in for experience. Also put 2 way radios in all the machines so I can let a roar at a lad for doing something stupid!!:D

Let them know who's boss! !!!!what would you roar at them? Any examples of some stupid mistakes prompting you to roar down the two way radio?

rock_face

Zr105 wrote: »

I'd disagree completely, a 10ft trailed is well North of €20k new, split that (€20k)over say 5years it's working out at €30/acre before you account for a tractor pulling it, diesel, blades and driver. You'd get someone to mow it for €20..

Agreed, but at the end of the five years you still have the moco (which would have only cut 650a in the intervening years - many contractors would cut double/triple that in a single season) worth at least €10k and with care it will last many more years.

Therefore, your cutting actually works out at:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €10k) / (130a x 5y) = €15/acre spread across the five years of payment.


Assuming the guy is capable, it should at least run for another 5 seasons at the end of which he has a fair machine worth approx €5000:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €5k) / (130a x 10y) = €11/acre

Over ten years you will have given the contractor: €20 x (130a x 10y) = €26,000

The mower initially cost €20k, so there is a 'saving' of €6k and you still have the €5k value of the mower. So, you have €11k of margin.

* Yes I appreciate that these figure miss out diesel and maintenance. However, it is intended to show things are not a clear yes/no. Plus initially purchasing a fresh second hand item makes the figures read even better.

It is then during this period that you start making the savings - when the capital has been paid off (and whatever tax relief you get too) - you are playing a long game here. The more mechanically sympathetic you are the longer the machine will last.

Also there is no reason to buy new, you can get good 2nd hand items for much less and this would move the numbers a lot closer. Get a good 2nd hand item from a brand like the Kuhn, check the welds and the bed and you should be good to go.

As the man is cutting 130a of silage, I assume a big farm and there would be a machine capable of driving it. Mowing is one of the hardest jobs on a tractor. Contractors go at full tilt all the time. When you are your own operator you can afford to go a bit easier and not force the grass.

However, as I said in my initial post if you are having to buy in drivers and mechanics then it is not as an attractive an option and you should leave the burden with them. No reason why they can't mow for you and then you finish the job yourself. If you pay your bills to them, they'll be back next year.

There is no right or wrong answer to the original question.

frazzledhome

rock_face wrote: »

Agreed, but at the end of the five years you still have the moco (which would have only cut 650a in the intervening years - many contractors would cut double/triple that in a single season) worth at least €10k and with care it will last many more years.

Therefore, your cutting actually works out at:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €10k) / (130a x 5y) = €15/acre spread across the five years of payment.


Assuming the guy is capable, it should at least run for another 5 seasons at the end of which he has a fair machine worth approx €5000:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €5k) / (130a x 10y) = €11/acre

Over ten years you will have given the contractor: €20 x (130a x 10y) = €26,000

The mower initially cost €20k, so there is a 'saving' of €6k and you still have the €5k value of the mower. So, you have €11k of margin.

* Yes I appreciate that these figure miss out diesel and maintenance. However, it is intended to show things are not a clear yes/no. Plus initially purchasing a fresh second hand item makes the figures read even better.

It is then during this period that you start making the savings - when the capital has been paid off (and whatever tax relief you get too) - you are playing a long game here. The more mechanically sympathetic you are the longer the machine will last.

Also there is no reason to buy new, you can get good 2nd hand items for much less and this would move the numbers a lot closer. Get a good 2nd hand item from a brand like the Kuhn, check the welds and the bed and you should be good to go.

As the man is cutting 130a of silage, I assume a big farm and there would be a machine capable of driving it. Mowing is one of the hardest jobs on a tractor. Contractors go at full tilt all the time. When you are your own operator you can afford to go a bit easier and not force the grass.

However, as I said in my initial post if you are having to buy in drivers and mechanics then it is not as an attractive an option and you should leave the burden with them. No reason why they can't mow for you and then you finish the job yourself. If you pay your bills to them, they'll be back next year.

There is no right or wrong answer to the original question.

That's all great but if you bought 15 milking cows you'd have an appreciating asset instead of a depreciating liability

Gman1987

farmerjj wrote: »

Would it be worth while in buying a 2nd hand 10foot trailed mower for cutting around 130acres of silage, often thought about it.How much are 2nd hand mowers going for?

We bought a 10ft JD1360 with grouper 6 years ago for small money around September, stripped it down ourselves over the winter, did all the seals in the bed + one gear, new slides+ stone guards, all new conditioner tines, six new panels, full respray + new stickers!!:) All in it cost us 4100 euro + time and it has mowed about 160 acres per year since. (Only repair since was one bearing in the bed). We do be after it ourselves so it does be minded.

rock_face

frazzledhome wrote: »

That's all great but if you bought 15 milking cows you'd have an appreciating asset instead of a depreciating liability

And cows can't be a liability!!!???

The thread is about buying silage equipment - not dairy cows.

caseman

Fox999 wrote: »

Does it pay to buy in machinery to do your own silage rather than getting contractors in.

I've been working out the costs and making your own bales certainly does pay off but its drawing them all in that's the problem.

On the other hand buying the gear for pit silage is quite expensive and also trying to get labourers at the time of year you need them can be quite tough!

It dose if you buy cheap old machinery and are able to fix it yourself when it breaks.
We used to use double chops here for 20 years,but 3 years ago we bought a old krone silage wagon for 4 grand.
Less labour needed with the wagon which is a big plus.

poor farmer

I have been doing my own baling for the last 10years 1200-1500bales/year
I hire in contractors to wrap and sometimes to bale, to speed up the job.
I did a bit of number crunching on the running costs of the baler alone .Second hand baler ,I have the current one 7 years. I have a mechanical backgroundand do all my repairs and maintainence .I factored in repairs, depreciation,net cost,diesel,tractor running cost, some driver costs.

At best I make a saving of €1 per bale.Not much use really .If I had a bad breakdown, I am at nothing.

Miname

I just bought an eight foot mounted conditioner mower for very small money. It hasn't 100 acres cut but I threw another three hundred on bits and pieces tidied the whole lot up and I've it there for a lifetime. I hate machinery and am pretty tight with purchases but I started taking out more and more paddocks lately and my contractor doesn't want to hear of coming into two to three acres for a few bales. I was using a 6'6" but it required rowing up for the baler and time can be pretty precious when your working off farm to have two tasks rather than one.

rock_face

How do you find the mounted moco to work with?
A lot of people seem to be put off by the weight of them hanging out to the side compared to the trailed items.

tomwaterford

poor farmer wrote: »

I have been doing my own baling for the last 10years 1200-1500bales/year
I hire in contractors to wrap and sometimes to bale, to speed up the job.
I did a bit of number crunching on the running costs of the baler alone .Second hand baler ,I have the current one 7 years. I have a mechanical backgroundand do all my repairs and maintainence .I factored in repairs, depreciation,net cost,diesel,tractor running cost, some driver costs.

At best I make a saving of €1 per bale.Not much use really .If I had a bad breakdown, I am at nothing.

The only really possible to make it pay is if you can possibly put a value on the increased quality of the silage...as around here contractors who are realiable are rare (I do pay on the high side for a reliable contractor here...who I can count on when I'm away working)

Miname

rock_face wrote: »

How do you find the mounted moco to work with?
A lot of people seem to be put off by the weight of them hanging out to the side compared to the trailed items.

It's heavy alright 820 kg . I haven't hit a field with it yet as I still have a half an hours work on it tomorrow evening. New blades, belts,change the oil, new bungs, a new cover and I hope to have it sorted tomorrow.

poor farmer

tomwaterford wrote: »

The only really possible to make it pay is if you can possibly put a value on the increased quality of the silage...as around here contractors who are realiable are rare (I do pay on the high side for a reliable contractor here...who I can count on when I'm away working)

Agreed ,you have more control at can do the job at the optimum time.But i probably end up with more bales because my baler wont pack a bale as well as a new one. meaning more net/ plastic /handling

Timmaay

frazzledhome wrote: »

That's all great but if you bought 15 milking cows you'd have an appreciating asset instead of a depreciating liability

Only an extra row in the parlour twice a day, (call it 20mins extra work a day on average), assuming them 15 cows return you 500e profit each on average per year, that's 7500e extra profit, for a rough guess of 72hrs extra work (20mins/day), that's paying you about 60euro/hour, against basically a drivers rate of 10e/hr if you spend the money on silage equipment instead. This sort of economics is the main reason I'm utterly allergic to buying machinery!

tomwaterford

poor farmer wrote: »

Agreed ,you have more control at can do the job at the optimum time.But i probably end up with more bales because my baler wont pack a bale as well as a new one. meaning more net/ plastic /handling

What price is a new baler (say welger type)..ordinary run of the mill.machine...or a 3-5 year one fully serviced and gaurenteed???

How many less bales would ya make??


Just curious?...I seen neighbours here who do baling for me have one they told me and all...but I'm fcuked if I remember


Do you have it insured for the bigger repairs (rollers)

Deepsouthwest

frazzledhome wrote: »

That's all great but if you bought 15 milking cows you'd have an appreciating asset instead of a depreciating liability

I don't see the relevance in this, it's about cutting silage, if it was about ROI I'd be confident we could find something better than cows as well!

frazzledhome

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

I don't see the relevance in this, it's about cutting silage, if it was about ROI I'd be confident we could find something better than cows as well!

I agree, I was only thinking out loud and questioning my self.

We mow, tedd and pit ourselves. I'm now asking very serious questions re the viability of a big tractor that mows silage, spreads slurry and fert and hauls cattle.

We have loader and that's not negotiable as it feeds everything.

I'm finding this thread interesting and making me look at things I've only glanced at heretofore.

On the mowing etc Ive no doubt it pays as you can go at the drop of a hat. In 2012 it was the reason we made good quality silage even with such small windows.

We've looked at adding a wagon to the operation but with the cost of them we can't stack it up.

We are getting silage raked and wagoned to the pit for <&40/acre so it wouldn't make sense for us to go down that route.

Farmer Pudsey

rock_face wrote: »

Agreed, but at the end of the five years you still have the moco (which would have only cut 650a in the intervening years - many contractors would cut double/triple that in a single season) worth at least €10k and with care it will last many more years.

Therefore, your cutting actually works out at:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €10k) / (130a x 5y) = €15/acre spread across the five years of payment.


Assuming the guy is capable, it should at least run for another 5 seasons at the end of which he has a fair machine worth approx €5000:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €5k) / (130a x 10y) = €11/acre

Over ten years you will have given the contractor: €20 x (130a x 10y) = €26,000

The mower initially cost €20k, so there is a 'saving' of €6k and you still have the €5k value of the mower. So, you have €11k of margin.

* Yes I appreciate that these figure miss out diesel and maintenance. However, it is intended to show things are not a clear yes/no. Plus initially purchasing a fresh second hand item makes the figures read even better.

It is then during this period that you start making the savings - when the capital has been paid off (and whatever tax relief you get too) - you are playing a long game here. The more mechanically sympathetic you are the longer the machine will last.

Also there is no reason to buy new, you can get good 2nd hand items for much less and this would move the numbers a lot closer. Get a good 2nd hand item from a brand like the Kuhn, check the welds and the bed and you should be good to go.

As the man is cutting 130a of silage, I assume a big farm and there would be a machine capable of driving it. Mowing is one of the hardest jobs on a tractor. Contractors go at full tilt all the time. When you are your own operator you can afford to go a bit easier and not force the grass.

However, as I said in my initial post if you are having to buy in drivers and mechanics then it is not as an attractive an option and you should leave the burden with them. No reason why they can't mow for you and then you finish the job yourself. If you pay your bills to them, they'll be back next year.

There is no right or wrong answer to the original question.

The devil can quote scripture for his own use. I am not being snotty but you are double accounting. Not allowing for diesel and maitenance, what about wear and tear on your tractor. The value of 20K is it worth 5%/year that is 1K in hidden costs.

You also need to factor in tax issue. You are paying out 2600 for cutting this is a straight line farm costs. 20K spend on machinery gives a capital allowance of 2500/year however it is only allowable again Tax and PRSI you have to pay USC on it at 5% that is another 125 gone west.

Mind you I bought a 2nd hand 8' disc mower however I will get contractor to do first cut with a mower conditioner, I will only do paddocks, 2nd and third cut from hybrids/red clover. Contractor was charging same as for heavy first cut cost to me was 4/bale as opposed to 2/bale

rock_face wrote: »

And cows can't be a liability!!!???

The thread is about buying silage equipment - not dairy cows.

One impacts on the other if I tie 20K+ of investment in machinery what impact will it have on other farm activity, how will it limit expansion is that money better spend else where. It amazes me lots of lads will spend 20K on machinery with out a blink but they will not spray the f@@king docks

rock_face wrote: »

How do you find the mounted moco to work with?
A lot of people seem to be put off by the weight of them hanging out to the side compared to the trailed items.

For a contractor these are the mojo faster on the road easier to get in and out of fields faster to operate.

tomwaterford wrote: »

The only really possible to make it pay is if you can possibly put a value on the increased quality of the silage...as around here contractors who are realiable are rare (I do pay on the high side for a reliable contractor here...who I can count on when I'm away working)

Most contractors will eat you for an extra 50c or euro/bale from poor farmers example he nearly still be better off with a contractor at that money.

tomwaterford

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The devil can quote scripture for his own use. I am not being snotty but you are double accounting. Not allowing for diesel and maitenance, what about wear and tear on your tractor. The value of 20K is it worth 5%/year that is 1K in hidden costs.

You also need to factor in tax issue. You are paying out 2600 for cutting this is a straight line farm costs. 20K spend on machinery gives a capital allowance of 2500/year however it is only allowable again Tax and PRSI you have to pay USC on it at 5% that is another 125 gone west.

Mind you I bought a 2nd hand 8' disc mower however I will get contractor to do first cut with a mower conditioner, I will only do paddocks, 2nd and third cut from hybrids/red clover. Contractor was charging same as for heavy first cut cost to me was 4/bale as opposed to 2/bale



One impacts on the other if I tie 20K+ of investment in machinery what impact will it have on other farm activity, how will it limit expansion is that money better spend else where. It amazes me lots of lads will spend 20K on machinery with out a blink but they will not spray the f@@king docks



For a contractor these are the mojo faster on the road easier to get in and out of fields faster to operate.



Most contractors will eat you for an extra 50c or euro/bale from poor farmers example he nearly still be better off with a contractor at that money.

I'm not doubting you (I've no intention of ever cutting my own silage here)....just saying I don't mind paying the extra bit here to have a job gaurenteed done and done right...as last thing you want in work is to be chasing up fellas and stress of it...worth the extra few quid IMO...as who wants to come away from work to stick up on a tractor....horrible places to spend the day.....would 200 times rather be at the sheep

Deepsouthwest

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

"The devil can quote scripture for his own use."That's some put down, remind me to never fcuk with u Pudsey

Deepsouthwest

Anyone care to put a cost on mowing their own silage vs a contractor at €25/acre?

frazzledhome

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Anyone care to put a cost on mowing their own silage vs a contractor at €25/acre?

14 litres per hr, aprox 7 acres. I don't know how much of the tractor costs to charge.

Farmer Pudsey

Deepsouthwest wrote: »

Anyone care to put a cost on mowing their own silage vs a contractor at €25/acre?

It about the only place in contracting where there is a bit of fat. However for first cut I prefer a mower conditioner. I cut about 8 acres of Hybrids/ red clover and 10 acres of normal silage. This usually averages 11-12 bales/acre.

This year I have already cut 8 acres of paddocks and will cut hybrids and red clover twice. I will take another 3-5 acres of paddocks as well. Previously i could never justify taking out paddocks so some went too strong that is why I bought disc mower. If the same as this year it will cut about 25 acres/year and top another 8-12 acres. The 80 Hp 4WD will work it. The 25 acres would cost me 625 to cut/year. Throw in topping at 15/acre Disc mower cost 3200. so about a 5 year pay back period. Diesel 2-3/acre and about 20 minutes/acre to cut.

It will add about 8 hours work/year to the tractor however as I do low enough hours I only need to service once/year.

rock_face

I acknowledged that clearly in my post about diesel and wear etc. I was sticking with the maths used by the poster I was replying to.

However I also said that the second hand route would be better. A subsequent poster talked about mowing 160a for 6 years with one they bought for over €4100. Plug those figures in and it looks a lot better.

I don't advocate a new moco for that amount of grass.

Zr105

rock_face wrote: »

Agreed, but at the end of the five years you still have the moco (which would have only cut 650a in the intervening years - many contractors would cut double/triple that in a single season) worth at least €10k and with care it will last many more years.

Therefore, your cutting actually works out at:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €10k) / (130a x 5y) = €15/acre spread across the five years of payment.


Assuming the guy is capable, it should at least run for another 5 seasons at the end of which he has a fair machine worth approx €5000:

(New cost - current value) / (grass cut over intevening time)
(€20k - €5k) / (130a x 10y) = €11/acre

Over ten years you will have given the contractor: €20 x (130a x 10y) = €26,000

The mower initially cost €20k, so there is a 'saving' of €6k and you still have the €5k value of the mower. So, you have €11k of margin.

* Yes I appreciate that these figure miss out diesel and maintenance. However, it is intended to show things are not a clear yes/no. Plus initially purchasing a fresh second hand item makes the figures read even better.

It is then during this period that you start making the savings - when the capital has been paid off (and whatever tax relief you get too) - you are playing a long game here. The more mechanically sympathetic you are the longer the machine will last.

Also there is no reason to buy new, you can get good 2nd hand items for much less and this would move the numbers a lot closer. Get a good 2nd hand item from a brand like the Kuhn, check the welds and the bed and you should be good to go.

As the man is cutting 130a of silage, I assume a big farm and there would be a machine capable of driving it. Mowing is one of the hardest jobs on a tractor. Contractors go at full tilt all the time. When you are your own operator you can afford to go a bit easier and not force the grass.

However, as I said in my initial post if you are having to buy in drivers and mechanics then it is not as an attractive an option and you should leave the burden with them. No reason why they can't mow for you and then you finish the job yourself. If you pay your bills to them, they'll be back next year.

There is no right or wrong answer to the original question.

I certainly don't disagree with your figures either but I'd say we would both be thinking along the same lines in that for 130 acres a year there's no need to go to the expense of a new mower, and that for that a mount a tidy 2nd hand mower bought right will do the same work, be a long time wearing out and be returning money much much sooner.
The biggest problem with going all the way to 20k is that your having to put that all up front to make a potential saving in years down the line, I'd rather put say the half of it in and the other half else where that could make more financial sense/better roi....

As for running costs on a mower, roughly 3.5ltr/acre diesel first cut, 7acre/hr@say 40/hr tractor running+driver+maintenance/repairs works out what in or around €10/acre cost?

keep going

Its very hard to justify running a mower compared to contractor charges but it will pay for itself over and over again in grass management terms and its great to have a bit of control when cutting silage.on a straight sums basis contractor is away cheaper but for grass farmers I now cant see how you could do without one and it would pay for itself over and over again.as regards having all your own kit for silage, if you have enough acerage to justify it you havent time to do it

twin_beacon

good discussion.
we make around 350 bales a year, part time farm. We have our own drum mower that we really only use if we are making hay, it hasn't been used since 2013.

We dont make a pit, so I cant really comment on that end of things. For people making all bales like ourselves there are very few farms where it would be cost effective to make your own bales. There are many factors to consider, and not just the cost.
We are very lucky, we have a reliable contractor that makes very well packed bales. There is also competition between contractors, which is win win for the farmer.

Things to consider:
1. Cost of buying Baler + wrapper. Thats assuming you already own a mower and a tractor with enough horse power. Also, what can you get for your money.
2. What will the bales be like. A large contractor more than likely have a baler less than three years old, and know how to drive them correctly. They will also leave the swards in the condition they like when mowing to produce the best bale. Mchale balers seem to be everywhere now, they make a good well chopped, well packed bale if driven correctly. Can your baler with you at the controls make a bale as good as the contractor? will it be chopped as well? If not, you are in for a long winter for forking!
3. How many bales am I making to make it cost effective. this really depends on the gear you buy and how much you spend, and if you have to hire in extra labor. Don't forget to add in your own time here.
4. Knowledge of machinery. Do yo know the ins and outs of a mower, baler and wrapper? I'll throw my hands up and say I know nothing about them. If it goes wrong can you fix it, and how much will it cost?
5. Time management. This is the deciding factor for a lot of people, how long will it take to make the bales, and can they be made in a window without rain? If you are making bales over 2 days, the bales from day 1 have to be brought into the yard, this will delay the baling on day 2. However, that can be turned around, if your contractor is not reliable, you might well have a better chance of making your own bales before the rain!

In my local area, 2 medium/large farmers joined forces and bought a mower, baler and wrapper for their own use. Of course there are massive drawbacks to this too, but also advantages.

C0N0R

Kind of a related question, is there a massive advantage to using a conditionor mower or for surplus bales is a normal disc mower sufficient? If it's going to be tedded does that make a difference? What I'm thinking is a disc mower that can be used for topping instead of the dreaded topper and also can be used for mowing surplus paddocks. First cut silage will be mowed by contractor with moco and second cut can be done by me or contractor. What I'm asking is do I need a conditionor or not?

il gatto

C0N0R wrote: »

Kind of a related question, is there a massive advantage to using a conditionor mower or for surplus bales is a normal disc mower sufficient? If it's going to be tedded does that make a difference? What I'm thinking is a disc mower that can be used for topping instead of the dreaded topper and also can be used for mowing surplus paddocks. First cut silage will be mowed by contractor with moco and second cut can be done by me or contractor. What I'm asking is do I need a conditionor or not?

They're an expensive bit of kit. People used disc mowers for decades before conditioners arrived on the scene. So you don't need one. If it's going to be tedded anyway, the conditioner will save less time than if you were baling/harvesting immediately.
If you can get by with the disc mower, do. Save a few grand.

CloughCasey1

yellow50HX wrote: »

Picked up a disc mower for ourselves to cut silage and do some topping and forward mowing. Had looked into other equipment like a baler and wrapper too but the extra expense of maintaining them and the time of also of actually running them wouldn't be ideal for me. Might look at a trailer for drawing in the bales as at present I use a keltec. I might change the trailer here and get one that can be fitted with an extenstion that I could load with the digger and tip off in the yard for the wrapper stacker.

Is there a conditioner on the mower and how tight does it cut to the ground? Contractors seem to like not having to cut and it saves 3 euro a bale or so. They like the phone call with I have a few acres rowed up. You'd usually get a reply of I'll be passing later.

C0N0R

il gatto wrote: »

They're an expensive bit of kit. People used disc mowers for decades before conditioners arrived on the scene. So you don't need one. If it's going to be tedded anyway, the conditioner will save less time than if you were baling/harvesting immediately.
If you can get by with the disc mower, do. Save a few grand.

First cut will be tedded and second cut to but surplus paddocks won't, will just be mowed and raked but with the lightness of the crop a wilt and a rake would be sufficient I'd hope