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Not our debt

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    #92
    K-9
    Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    The other thing and it comes back to Greece as well, is that we have a representantive democracy and sometimes that means our representatives will make bad decisions, even if a sovereign Government guaranteeing that much debt was a spectacularly bad one.

    We very much went on a solo run the night of the guarantee, against EU advice, so it was always going to be difficult to unwind that decision.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



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    #93
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,411 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The Corinthian wrote: »

    What do you expect if you keep on reelecting what is largely a bunch of schoolteachers to run an economy?

    Brian Lenahan was a lawyer. Biffo was a solicitor. Hogan was an auctioneer. Do not know about the others, but a lot of them are teachers and as Bernard Shaw said: - 'Those that can, do; those that can't, teach'. He did not say what those who cannot teach do, but here they go into politics.


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    #94
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,976 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Brian Lenahan was a lawyer. Biffo was a solicitor. Hogan was an auctioneer. Do not know about the others, but a lot of them are teachers and as Bernard Shaw said: - 'Those that can, do; those that can't, teach'. He did not say what those who cannot teach do, but here they go into politics.

    They still knew sweet fa on running a country!


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    #95
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,411 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    kbannon wrote: »
    They still knew sweet fa on running a country!

    Granted.


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    #96
    irishpancake
    Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭irishpancake


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Brian Lenahan was a lawyer. Biffo was a solicitor. Hogan was an auctioneer. Do not know about the others, but a lot of them are teachers and as Bernard Shaw said: - 'Those that can, do; those that can't, teach'. He did not say what those who cannot teach do, but here they go into politics.

    Not that it matters, but Brian [RIP] was a Law Lecturer in TCD, in the 80's I think.

    Hogan was in opposition.


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    #97
    FreudianSlippers
    Registered Users Posts: 20,397 ✭✭✭✭FreudianSlippers


    irishpancake wrote: »
    Not that it matters, but Brian [RIP] was a Law Lecturer in TCD, in the 80's I think.
    He was a barrister and by all accounts a fairly good one too.


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    #98
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    He was a barrister and by all accounts a fairly good one too.
    While Lenihan was part of the government that made the mess, I wouldn't lay the lion's share of the blame at his feet. As has already been said, there were no plans for such an event, even if one could be predicted and he was simply minister of finance for a few months before the crisis exploded, and after the property bubble had de facto burst. Cowen and McCreevy held the reigns when the foundations of the bubble were being laid down and of course Ahern oversaw the whole sorry mess (jumping ship just before it hit the iceberg).

    This is not to say he was blameless, but I do feel that there appears to a lot of focus on him, compared to those who principally created the problem.


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    #99
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,411 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    irishpancake wrote: »
    Hogan was in opposition.

    True - my mistake. He was big in opposition though! :D


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    #100
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Brian Lenahan was a lawyer. Biffo was a solicitor. Hogan was an auctioneer. Do not know about the others, but a lot of them are teachers and as Bernard Shaw said: - 'Those that can, do; those that can't, teach'. He did not say what those who cannot teach do, but here they go into politics.
    What does it matter if someone were a teacher? I suspect a lot of people are projecting some unhappy experience as a student by berating the existence of ex-teachers in the Oireachtas.

    Some of the United States' most popular, and effective, presidents, including John Adams, Lyndon Johnson and Jimmy Carter had previously been schoolteachers just as, I presume, have plenty of other US politicians; I think Madeleine Albright is a former teacher.

    In France, the previous Prime Minister Jean-Marc Ayrault was a teacher, as was his predecessor. Countless British MPs have been teachers, including current government ministers. This is extremely common everywhere in the world. I don't see why people think Ireland is special, or why it's even relevant.

    The man who was chosen as Ireland's most popular Taoiseach on another thread, Sean Lemass, was a drapers' assistant. Nobody cares.


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    #101
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    20Cent wrote: »
    Private German bank lends money to a private Irish or Greek bank which subsequently goes bust. With capitalism that's a bad investment and tough luck money is gone. The ECB has forced governments to take in this debt run up by private banks and made it sovereign.
    Hence "not our debt".

    And you've got to remember too that most of this debt was issued by private Irish banks at junk rates in a last desperate attempt to raise capital and keep liquid. This private debt was forced by Germany the US and the UK to be paid back at full rates, unlike what happens with 99.99% of junk bonds, which are torn up once the debtor goes bankrupt.

    Frankly the whole Greek crisis has happened because Merkel is deathly afraid when the German financial house of cards eventually collapses around her ears.


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    #102
    Seth Brundle
    Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 38,976 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    True - my mistake. He was big in opposition though! :D
    Him being big in opposition means that he was small!


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    #103
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,411 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    kbannon wrote: »
    Him being big in opposition means that he was small!

    No, Phil was always big.


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    #104
    irishpancake
    Registered Users Posts: 1,481 ✭✭✭irishpancake


    FreudianSlippers wrote: »
    He was a barrister and by all accounts a fairly good one too.

    Well, of course he was.

    He also lectured in Law, which was really the point I attempted to make, in reply to Sam.

    Cheers.


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    #105
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    Oops


    The Bank Guarantee introduced in 2008 was “too generous” to bondholders, and played a major part in turning a financial crisis into a sovereign debt crisis, the European Commission has admitted in a dramatic new report.

    http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/bank-guarantee-too-generous-to-bondholders-explosive-european-commission-report-31381833.html


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    #106
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Akrasia wrote: »
    The Greeks are regularly accused playing creative accounting with their national debt statistics but they probably learned half their tricks from Ireland.

    Learnt them from Germany. At the time Greece was one of the few countries that Germany was sucessfully exporting to (still is actually, without the PIIGS as captive, almost colonial, markets to export to the German economy would be an absolute basket case), and the government at the time was massively leaned on by their German counterparts to diguise the true nature of Greek finances and GDP, aided an abetted by massive bribery (the same tactic the German companies used to sell their guns to Greece)

    For all those who think Germany are the good guys here, this is the country that only outlawed bribery by its own citizens in 2008, the country that for the last 20 years has been attempting to treat the rest of Europe like what the UK and France did with their colonies before WW1. And now they are making the rest of Europe pay to keep them afloat, because they currently have no way of doing it off their own backs.


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    #107
    micosoft
    Registered Users Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭micosoft


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    Learnt them from Germany. At the time Greece was one of the few countries that Germany was sucessfully exporting to (still is actually, without the PIIGS as captive, almost colonial, markets to export to the German economy would be an absolute basket case), and the government at the time was massively leaned on by their German counterparts to diguise the true nature of Greek finances and GDP, aided an abetted by massive bribery (the same tactic the German companies used to sell their guns to Greece)

    For all those who think Germany are the good guys here, this is the country that only outlawed bribery by its own citizens in 2008, the country that for the last 20 years has been attempting to treat the rest of Europe like what the UK and France did with their colonies before WW1. And now they are making the rest of Europe pay to keep them afloat, because they currently have no way of doing it off their own backs.

    When your opening line is a invention you can pretty much write off everything you have to say. Greece is just behind Ireland as Germany's 38th largest trading partner. And not just by a little margin. My many factors. Luxembourg imports more from Germany. As for the rest, 42% of Greek Arms imports were from the US vs 25% from Germany. Can I ask you why you see the need to fabricate something so easy to disprove?


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