Punished financially for getting promoted Public Sector

notsure11

Hi All

Here is my situation. I have been working with the public sector, without a break in service, for almost 9 years now.

I recently applied, through open competition for two roles, one HEO and one AO with two different public sector organisations. I subsequently, through rounds of interviews, got offered both positions.

It all sounds fine except when I query my starting salary I am informed I have to start at the first point of the scale, even though my current point on my current salary scale is actually higher than the starting point of HEO or AO. I will habe to resign my current public sector position in order to take up one of these roles.

I assumed I would just transfer across my current salary point (or move to the next closest point) but this is not the case. I am being told I have to start at the bottom point.

So essentially what is happening I am being punished for getting a promotion.

Has anybody found themselves in this situation, I would gratefully like to hear your experiences, in particular anyone that has transferred in the last 12 months, as some of the changes in circular 02/14 from dper seem to muddy the water on this.

Thanks

KCC

notsure11 wrote: »

Hi All

Here is my situation. I have been working with the public sector, without a break in service, for almost 9 years now.

I recently applied, through open competition for two roles, one HEO and one AO with two different public sector organisations. I subsequently, through rounds of interviews, got offered both positions.

It all sounds fine except when I query my starting salary I am informed I have to start at the first point of the scale, even though my current point on my current salary scale is actually higher than the starting point of HEO or AO. I will habe to resign my current public sector position in order to take up one of these roles.

I assumed I would just transfer across my current salary point (or move to the next closest point) but this is not the case. I am being told I have to start at the bottom point.

So essentially what is happening I am being punished for getting a promotion.

Has anybody found themselves in this situation, I would gratefully like to hear your experiences, in particular anyone that has transferred in the last 12 months, as some of the changes in circular 02/14 from dper seem to muddy the water on this.

Thanks

I would have agreed with your presumptions here. might be in a similar situation in the near future and I thought I wouldn't have to resign and that I would get a slight increase in pay. However, I don't think circular 02/14 applies to you at all.

I would have thought though that the Public (Recruitment and Appointments) (Amendment) Bill 2013 would be relevant. http://www.per.gov.ie/the-minister-for-public-expenditure-and-reform-publishes-the-public-service-management-recruitment-and-appointments-amendment-bill-2013-removing-the-legislative-barriers-to-redeployment/ Note the public sector organisations it covers as it might not be applicable in your case.

Section 57C(1) of the Bill states that a designated employee’s basic pay in his new role will not be any less than his basic pay in his previous role, unless basic pay has been affected by a collective agreement or by operation of law.

However perhaps this legislation, despite the title, just refers to redeployment rather than appointments? I'm no legal expert, but you could perhaps argue that the spirit of the legislation applies in your case, since a reduction in pay would be a barrier to your mobility in the public service and the legislation is intended to remove all barriers?

I would be grateful if you could post an update on your situation if you manage to convince them that the legislation does apply. Also, who are you dealing with, i.e. DPER, PAS, PeoplePoint, a local authority? In other words, could they be wrong out of ignorance?

Holysock

From the information you have provided it seems clear that this is not a case of promotion at all. You didn't apply to these positions internally or through a transfer process in your own organisation. This is recruitment to these positions through an open competition so it sounds right that you may have to start on the first point on the scale. It is not a promotion therefore the rules relating to being put an equivalent point on the new payscale so as to equal the pay on your old payscale would not apply

As far as I know incremental credit only applies if you are being hired to a grade and you have previous service on an equivalent grade

Zipppy

Hmmm..I'll probably be in same boat shortly and as far as I'm concerned I go in on nearest scale point above my current salary scale point....if it doesn't I'm staying put..

Also I've already moved within public sector and my salary scale point carried over with me...

KCC

Holysock wrote: »

From the information you have provided it seems clear that this is not a case of promotion at all. You didn't apply to these positions internally or through a transfer process in your own organisation. This is recruitment to these positions through an open competition so it sounds right that you may have to start on the first point on the scale. It is not a promotion therefore the rules relating to being put an equivalent point on the new payscale so as to equal the pay on your old payscale would not apply

As far as I know incremental credit only applies if you are being hired to a grade and you have previous service on an equivalent grade

,

I see your point, but surely since we are now all part of one public service, it should be seen as a promotion within the public service?

Also, re: previous service in an equivalent grade, for example, if the OP happened to be an AO in the civil service and then got AO in the local authorities, surely he/she wouldn't have to go back to the beginning of the scale?

Zipppy

Have to say on second read that it appears that you're being treated as a new entrant rather than existing PS...

I do wonder what PS organisation you're currently in?

Holysock

KCC wrote: »

,

I see your point, but surely since we are now all part of one public service, it should be seen as a promotion within the public service?

Also, re: previous service in an equivalent grade, for example, if the OP happened to be an AO in the civil service and then got AO in the local authorities, surely he/she wouldn't have to go back to the beginning of the scale?

It would seem logical and fair that the OP would be put on a point which is close enough to their previous pay.I completely agree. I'm just trying to explain that it won't be viewed like that by their new employing HR and using the term promotion is incorrect in this case.

I don't think the OP has mentioned their grade so can't really speculate on whether incremental credit would apply, from my experience in HR I've only seen it granted to COs and EOs and equivalent grades at those levels

Mrs OBumble

Have you talked to your union about this? I would.

Zipppy

Holysock wrote: »

It would seem logical and fair that the OP would be put on a point which is close enough to their previous pay.I completely agree. I'm just trying to explain that it won't be viewed like that by their new employing HR and using the term promotion is incorrect in this case.

I don't think the OP has mentioned their grade so can't really speculate on whether incremental credit would apply, from my experience in HR I've only seen it granted to COs and EOs and equivalent grades at those levels

Yes If he's not in a clerical stream and moving to one, incremental credit wont apply...spot on there ..

jimmycrackcorm

notsure11 wrote:

I assumed I would just transfer across my current salary point (or move to the next closest point) but this is not the case. I am being told I have to start at the bottom point.

notsure11 wrote:

So essentially what is happening I am being punished for getting a promotion.

You are not getting promoted, you are changing employers. I work in a large private sector organization where I could change for a more senior role in a smaller company but the pay might be two thirds of my current salary.

In your case it's worth it if you can climb a higher scale. And it's certainly not punishment when you'll get increments regardless of performance.

notsure11

Thanks to all who have responded. I am current grade v in the public sector. I am following it up with HR in both organisations. A grade V is partially equivalent to an EO scale.

DPER have suggested, in particular re the HEO that I have to start on the bottom point, which is less than the point I am on in my current grade v position.

I am going to raise with PAS today and see how I get on.

This has massive significance for all existing staff in the public sector applying for roles through open competition. As far as I can make out up until 2 or 3 years ago this was never an issue.

notsure11

Without giving away exactly who I work with ,it is a local authority agency.

notsure11

One further point, the reason I reference circular 02.14 is because of the following

"A guide setting out the methodology to be applied in determining the revised incremental pay scales is available at (wont let me paste the dper url in here but that's what it says) It should be noted,
2 that indent 7 of the Guide requires, in certain circumstances, the application of an
additional incremental point e.g. Administrative Officer and Executive Officer grade"

Can anyone find this guide, I cannot find it on the DPER site. Those couple of sentences may have some significance.

Zipppy

Must be an error
Your union (IMPACT?) Should sort it out...

Tails142

Don't accept the bottom point, the only time you can negotiate your pay is now. People start mid scale regularly due to existing experience in the public sector.

If you accept the bottom point you will find out eventually about someone who started at some point before or after that got a better deal and it will eat away at you.

Comparisons to the private sector do not apply because there is no scope to renegotiate your pay once you start.

KCC

notsure11 wrote: »

One further point, the reason I reference circular 02.14 is because of the following

"A guide setting out the methodology to be applied in determining the revised incremental pay scales is available at (wont let me paste the dper url in here but that's what it says) It should be noted,
2 that indent 7 of the Guide requires, in certain circumstances, the application of an
additional incremental point e.g. Administrative Officer and Executive Officer grade"

Can anyone find this guide, I cannot find it on the DPER site. Those couple of sentences may have some significance.

I think this just refers to getting the scales of new entrants to match the scales of existing staff. There had been a different lower scale for new entrants, but the decision was reversed, so I don't think it's anything to do with your situation.

Monife

notsure11 wrote: »

Thanks to all who have responded. I am current grade v in the public sector. I am following it up with HR in both organisations. A grade V is partially equivalent to an EO scale.

DPER have suggested, in particular re the HEO that I have to start on the bottom point, which is less than the point I am on in my current grade v position.

I am going to raise with PAS today and see how I get on.

This has massive significance for all existing staff in the public sector applying for roles through open competition. As far as I can make out up until 2 or 3 years ago this was never an issue.

PAS won't be able to tell you anything. I got onto them about incremental credit before and they referred me back to my own HR or DPER.

Pretty sure incremental credit only applies if you are moving to a grade comparable to the one your in right now.

Zipppy

Any updates on this ?

I will soon be moving from Local Authority to civil service via open competition..dont yet know salary situation but won't be going anywhere if I'm not on same or higher salary...

jimmycrackcorm

Tails142 wrote:

Comparisons to the private sector do not apply because there is no scope to renegotiate your pay once you start.

In reality that's not the case. Unless you're at a very low level where you can argue the same that in effect the public service get automatic increments then the only choice is to do as I have and change employers.

Zipppy wrote:

I will soon be moving from Local Authority to civil service via open competition..dont yet know salary situation but won't be going anywhere if I'm not on same or higher salary...

If your new point scale means starting lower but you get to move up higher then doesn't it make sense in the long run?

Do you have the actual experience to justify joining at a higher scale for the role you're moving to as opposed to trying to argue that you should get more money simply because you're used to it?

Zipppy

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If your new point scale means starting lower but you get to move up higher then doesn't it make sense in the long run?

Not really .. a rather large drop in salary..that would take years to recover....

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Do you have the actual experience to justify joining at a higher scale for the role you're moving to as opposed to trying to argue that you should get more money simply because you're used to it?

Yes of course...I was offered job based on my experience and education....so I'm well worth it :rolleyes:

Slydice

Have you asked?

Zipppy

Slydice wrote: »

Have you asked?

It's being clarified

Victor

KCC wrote: »

I would have thought though that the Public (Recruitment and Appointments) (Amendment) Bill 2013 would be relevant. http://www.per.gov.ie/the-minister-for-public-expenditure-and-reform-publishes-the-public-service-management-recruitment-and-appointments-amendment-bill-2013-removing-the-legislative-barriers-to-redeployment/ Note the public sector organisations it covers as it might not be applicable in your case.

Bills have no standing in law. You need to read the act, which may differ substantially: http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2013/en/act/pub/0047/

Kristopherus

Before the shenanigans of the Croke Park, Haddington Road et al games, any PS who secured promotion or upgrade were entitled to be placed on the nearest higher point on their new salary.

As regards Incremental Credit, if you had experience in the PS of any EU country, you were entitled to credit for that experience.

OP, I would strongly advise you to contact Impact at the earliest opportunity. They now have a good network of regional offices, so you should'nt have any difficulty contacting a Regional Officer.

Holysock

http://hr.per.gov.ie/promotion-in-the-civil-service/Starting Pay on Promotion

The rules governing starting pay on promotion to a higher grade are set out in Circular 34/77 refers – Starting Pay on Promotion or Establishment. Civil Servants promoted through internal confined competitions are entitled to the more favourable of the following:

The minimum point of the new scale.

Pay equivalent to their existing pay, including their accrued increment on the current scale, if any, plus an immediate increment on the new scale.

Civil Servants recruited from external competitions under Public Appointments Service (PAS) are entitled to the more favourable of the following:

The minimum point of the new scale.

Pay equivalent to their existing pay including any accrued increment.

Personal enquiries from individual officers should be referred to the officer’s own Personnel Section.

Slydice

Holysock wrote: »

The rules governing starting pay on promotion to a higher grade are set out in Circular 34/77 refers – Starting Pay on Promotion or Establishment. Civil Servants promoted through internal confined competitions are entitled to the more favourable of the following:

I don't think these folks are asking about Civil Servants. They're asking about Public Servants. The two types are treated differently.

Holysock

Slydice wrote: »

I don't think these folks are asking about Civil Servants. They're asking about Public Servants. The two types are treated differently.

The OP has stated that they have applied for AO and HEO roles so I'm just guessing Civil Service. Just trying to help as the OP has not stated exactly where they work, only that it's public sector in a local authority

Slydice

Holysock wrote: »

The OP has stated that they have applied for AO and HEO roles so I'm just guessing Civil Service. Just trying to help as the OP has not stated exactly where they work, only that it's public sector in a local authority

local authority means not a civil servant.

Holysock

Slydice wrote: »

local authority means not a civil servant.

I am aware. But if it is the Civil Service they are being recruited to (which hasn't been confirmed or not), I was pointing out that promotion rules or getting your existing pay on recruitment only seems to apply to existing Civil Servants as per DPER. It doesn't mention Public Servants. The OP mentioned the new post was HEO/AO in a public sector organistation. The Civil Service is part of the public sector. It may or may not be relevant but another poster mentioned being in a similar situation moving from a Local Authority to Civil Service

Zipppy

notsure11 wrote:

So essentially what is happening I am being punished for getting a promotion.

Any updates here?

Monife

I just found out from people in my own (public not civil) department that even if you get another job in the public or civil service at the same grade, you go back to the first point of the scale even if you're art the top, now that's f*cked up!

Zipppy

Monife wrote:

I just found out from people in my own (public not civil) department that even if you get another job in the public or civil service at the same grade, you go back to the first point of the scale even if you're art the top, now that's f*cked up!

I think that's the general rule but, AFAIK, exceptions can be made if DEPR agree...

Lux23

There's a very odd situation developing in my place of work, none of the EOs most of whom have worked at that level for 7 or 8 years want to apply for the HEO roles so they are probably going to hire people outside of the organisation who will have less experience than the people they will be managing.

It might suit me though as I am only here since February, but then again it might be years before a promotion comes up.

billyhead

If your a serving civil servant say at CO level and you are on the top rate of the scale and get promotion to EO you cannot drop down to the lowest payscale of EO if it is less then your current salary. You will start as an EO on the nearest salary scale to your current salary. I presume moving from the public service i.e semi state body to the civil service works differently but I know that CWOs who moved from the HSE to the Dept of Social Protection did not lose out in that they were automatically promoted to a HEO grade.

Zipppy

Lux23 wrote:

There's a very odd situation developing in my place of work, none of the EOs most of whom have worked at that level for 7 or 8 years want to apply for the HEO roles so they are probably going to hire people outside of the organisation who will have less experience than the people they will be managing.

Is HEO not an internal promotion grade ?

open competition. nuff said

Lux23

Zipppy wrote: »

Is HEO not an internal promotion grade ?

No, they are advertising a position at the moment so don't think so.

Zipppy

Any updates on this?
Not looking good for me....LA to Civil service and I have to start on min? What madness is this?

Slydice

Zipppy wrote: »

It's being clarified

Sounds like they said no?

Cakerbaker

Do you have the conditions of service info booklet that was put up when the competition was advertised? (A friend of mine saved a copy so I have it). In this it states "Different pay and conditions may apply, if, immediately prior to appointment, the appointee is already a serving Civil Servant or Public Servant". I'm a Civil Servant so will be relying on Circular 34/1977. While this may not apply to Public Servants, you've to wonder why they stated different conditions "may" also apply to public servants if you're now being told you have to start at the bottom?

Zipppy

Slydice wrote: »

Sounds like they said no?

DPER have said no....I'm going to try unions in both sectors before I refuse anything..don't wish to go setting a precedent :rolleyes:

Zipppy

Cakerbaker wrote: »

Do you have the conditions of service info booklet that was put up when the competition was advertised? (A friend of mine saved a copy so I have it). In this it states "Different pay and conditions may apply, if, immediately prior to appointment, the appointee is already a serving Civil Servant or Public Servant". I'm a Civil Servant so will be relying on Circular 34/1977. While this may not apply to Public Servants, you've to wonder why they stated different conditions "may" also apply to public servants if you're now being told you have to start at the bottom?

Exactly...misleading...

I wouldn't have bothered with all the hassle and stress of the competition if I'd known this at the outset....I'm not letting go yet though :cool:

AprilMayJune

If you search online there's a list of public services departments that you can bring incremental credit over from. In general you can't from any commercial semi state body not sure if that's an area your coming from.

Edited to add its circular 40/2007

Won't let me add url

Zipppy

Just had a look at that circular
..not sure if its relevant... I'm coming from local authority btw.
It appears that croke park changed the rules....but I'm investigating
If this the case it severely limits movement between wider PS and CS .. which is something croke pk was to strengthen....

beauf

Seems like a tactic to stop people coming in and jumping past them for promotion.

Zipppy

beauf wrote: »

Seems like a tactic to stop people coming in and jumping past them for promotion.

I don't see the connection?

Jonathan

beauf wrote: »

Seems like a tactic to stop people coming in and jumping past them for promotion.

Not really. Just D/PER trying to keep costs down by any means possible.

martingriff

Zipppy wrote: »

Just had a look at that circular
..not sure if its relevant... I'm coming from local authority btw.
It appears that croke park changed the rules....but I'm investigating
If this the case it severely limits movement between wider PS and CS .. which is something croke pk was to strengthen....

If its an internal promotion job then you would start at a higher scale however as I see it as it is an external job interview it a job interview for x job NOT a promotion no matter where you are.

Zipppy

Jonathan wrote: »

Not really. Just D/PER trying to keep costs down by any means possible.

So now we will have a situation where public servants won't have any interest in open CS AO HEO EO competitions....so only existing CS or private sector might have interest...excluding PS and bringing in private sector employees only serves to increase overall PS pay bill (existing PS would most likely not be replaced)

Yup...madness...

martingriff

Zipppy wrote: »

So now we will have a situation where public servants won't have any interest in open CS AO HEO EO competitions....so only existing CS or private sector might have interest...excluding PS and bringing in private sector employees only serves to increase overall PS pay bill (existing PS would most likely not be replaced)

Yup...madness...

But an external posts are a job interview not a promotional interview. If you were in a job in the private sector and earned x amount and then went for a job interview in another company would you expect to get over your current wage because you seem to be going up in the world

Zipppy

martingriff wrote: »

But an external posts are a job interview not a promotional interview. If you were in a job in the private sector and earned x amount and then went for a job interview in another company would you expect to get over your current wage because you seem to be going up in the world

Yes
You'd hardly be going for a job paying less